[Marxism] Inside the Drug Wars
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/05/15/inside-the-drug-wars/ _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Calling out .....
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Clay. I don't see the point in continuing this. I regret my choice of phrasing. On May 5, 2015, at 8:13 PM, Clay Claiborne wrote: > While Louis has certainly critiqued some, if not all, the "Leftist" on my > list, I don't see his name anywhere on my blog post and he had no input into > it. So Ron, why are you trying to pin this on him? Is this the old Joe > McCarthy trick of indictment by association? > > So far as my list being another Joe McCarthy list. Quite the opposite. He > made lists of people he accused of being communists. My list is a list of > people I accuse of not being communists, even though many on it are > self-avowed. As far as comparing any list made by a Linux admin who works at > that craft 40/hrs a wk, [and is writing this opn his lunch break] to those > holding state power in the most advanced imperialist country, I can only add > to what Louis has already said: Can you be any more shallow? > > Frankly, I thing you are just peeved that I didn't include you on the list, > but if this list was inclusive [sadly], I would still be listing names next > week. > > Clay Claiborne, Director > Vietnam: American Holocaust > Linux Beach Productions > Venice, CA 90291 > (310) 581-1536 > > Read my blogs at the Linux Beach > _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Chechnya/Ukraine
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I agree with you regarding Putin. However, I find the excuse you provide Bandera reprehensible. He was a fascist. On Feb 28, 2015, at 4:41 AM, Louis Proyect wrote: > On 2/27/15 8:27 PM, Ron J wrote: >> Please. The situations are quite different (fir example, ukrainians were not >> stolen from their land, placed in chains and sold into slavery, nor did the >> Panthers align themselves with nazis or bankers to win their battles) also, >> the argument I am making is not denying the Ukrainian plaint against >> Russia. Your argument, however, seems to be denying the crucial role played >> by NATO and Washington in the current situation. > > In fact the Ukrainians suffered the loss of somewhere between 2.5 to 7.5 > million people in 1932 to 1934 because of Stalin's forced collectivization. > > The people who tend to adopt "anti-imperialist" formulas argue for a smaller > number and describe the deaths almost as accidental like workers dying in > construction jobs on a crash project. Go to Grover Furr's website if you want > to see some of that crap. > > People want to understand why Stephen Bandera lined up with the Nazis? In > many ways, they were the lesser evil as far as Ukrainians were concerned. In > essence, the main reason countries bordering the USSR orient to NATO today is > because of this sordid past. > > When the left sides with a criminal like Putin according to some febrile > notion of fighting the good fight, it embarrasses itself. But of course many > people like Stephen Cohen or Paul Craig Roberts seem to have been born > without shame genes. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Chechnya/Ukraine
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Please. The situations are quite different (fir example, ukrainians were not stolen from their land, placed in chains and sold into slavery, nor did the Panthers align themselves with nazis or bankers to win their battles) also, the argument I am making is not denying the Ukrainian plaint against Russia. Your argument, however, seems to be denying the crucial role played by NATO and Washington in the current situation. On Feb 27, 2015, at 6:23 PM, Louis Proyect wrote: > On 2/27/15 5:12 PM, Ron J via Marxism wrote: >> >> The west, especially Washington showed little or no interest in the >> Chechnyan struggle; supporting it, manipulating it or arming it. This >> creates an essential difference in how it is perceived in terms of its >> meaning in the growing rivalry between Washington and Moscow > > I'm not sure what this is in reference to but the real question for Marxists > is understanding the history of the Russian Empire. I've been taking the > trouble to scan in articles written in 1918 that make the case for Ukrainian > independence. You are talking about nearly a hundred years of Russian > domination, starting from a time when the publication of books or newspapers > in the Ukrainian language was banned and Ukrainian workers would not be hired > in the factories of Donbass except in low level positions just like Blacks in > American factories. All this business about how the USA is using Ukraine as a > beachhead seems utterly indifferent to that history. I might even give > someone like Ron or Michael Whitney the benefit of a doubt if they showed > even the slightest interest in that history. Here is Ron Jacobs going on at > great length over the years about how he admired the Black Panthers. Can't we > get it that Ukrainian nationalism is also the cry of the oppressed? > _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Chechnya/Ukraine
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * The west, especially Washington showed little or no interest in the Chechnyan struggle; supporting it, manipulating it or arming it. This creates an essential difference in how it is perceived in terms of its meaning in the growing rivalry between Washington and Moscow _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Ukraine
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Poor analogy and as meaningless as the argument that the US client regime is all fascist. On Feb 7, 2015, at 5:45 PM, Louis Proyect wrote: > On 2/7/15 2:23 PM, Ron J wrote: >> But this is about a lot more than the concerns of the average Ukrainian. >> Those concerns merely make it easier for the US supported government to >> manipulate Ukrainians to war. > > Funny thing here. > > Kim Scipes wrote about this stuff a few days ago > (http://www.commondreams.org/views/2015/02/06/us-ukraine-and-russia-what-went-wrong), > giving his nod to John Mearsheimer, the U. of Chicago "realist": > > ->Mearsheimer labeled Russia’s response "highly understandable." Russia made > clear this situation was "categorically unacceptable." He said that if we > wanted a good analogy, we should look at the US response to the Soviet > Union’s placement of missiles in Cuba in 1962 or even the Monroe Doctrine > itself, which he described as telling other world powers to stay out of "our > neighborhood," the entire Western Hemisphere.<- > > That this appalling analogy has so much traction with the left makes me all > the more committed to my stand on Ukraine. Think about it. Mearsheimer says > that Russia has just as much right to control what happens on its borders or > nearby as the USA had in Cuba. What kind of left can read this horseshit and > pat itself on the back that an establishment figure has come over to "our > side". In reality, it is the left that has gone over to his side and don't > you ever forget it. > _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Ukraine
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I would argue firstly that it was Britain was the greatest imperial power. Germany quickly became the biggest threat to world peace in the 1930s. While we can certainly refer to the 1930s for indicators, Russia is not today's third reich neither in terms if its domestic politics or its territorial ambitions. On Feb 7, 2015, at 4:48 PM, Clay Claiborne wrote: > I US was also the biggest imperialist power in the 1930's. Was it also the > primary threat to world peace? Or was that Britain then? > > Clay Claiborne, Director > Vietnam: American Holocaust > Linux Beach Productions > Venice, CA 90291 > (310) 581-1536 > > Read my blogs at the Linux Beach > > On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Ron J via Marxism > wrote: >> POSTING RULES & NOTES >> #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. >> #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. >> #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. >> * >> >> But this is about a lot more than the concerns of the average Ukrainian. >> Those concerns merely make it easier for the US supported government to >> manipulate Ukrainians to war. >> >> >> >> On Feb 7, 2015, at 12:13 PM, Louis Proyect wrote: >> >> > On 2/7/15 11:57 AM, Ron J via Marxism wrote: >> >> Both sides are proxies for outside interests. US imperialism remains the >> >> primary threat to world peace, not a wannabe empire in Moscow. >> > >> > That's definitely true but for the average Ukrainian, Russia has been a >> > threat to Ukrainian peace for 300 years. >> >> _ >> Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm >> Set your options at: >> http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/clayclai%40gmail.com > _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Ukraine
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * But this is about a lot more than the concerns of the average Ukrainian. Those concerns merely make it easier for the US supported government to manipulate Ukrainians to war. On Feb 7, 2015, at 12:13 PM, Louis Proyect wrote: > On 2/7/15 11:57 AM, Ron J via Marxism wrote: >> Both sides are proxies for outside interests. US imperialism remains the >> primary threat to world peace, not a wannabe empire in Moscow. > > That's definitely true but for the average Ukrainian, Russia has been a > threat to Ukrainian peace for 300 years. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Ukraine
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * The "separatists" in eastern Ukraine are "annexationist s" no more or less than the Kiev government is independent from NATO. Both sides are proxies for outside interests. US imperialism remains the primary threat to world peace, not a wannabe empire in Moscow. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Recalling Occupy Wall Street
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * It’s hard to believe that the Occupy Wall Street phenomenon began and ended almost four years ago. The relatively short media lifespan of those occupations of public parks and squares in the United States and around the world was a mixed bag, in composition, politics and effects. http://stillhomeron.blogspot.com/2015/02/recalling-occupy-wall-street.html?m=1 _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] How Will We Protest the Permanent War?
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