Re: [Marxism] Ken MacLeod on a novel about Kantrovich
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Joonas Laine wrote: > How widely read BTW is Cockshott & Cottrell's 'Towards a New Socialism' > where they sketch out a fully planned computer based socialist economic > system..? And how widely is it regarded as a top work on that topic..? > I've read it and think it's good, though haven't heard of very many > books of the same kind. > > (C & C's book can be found here: ) > http://ricardo.ecn.wfu.edu/~cottrell/socialism_book/ > http://www.scribd.com/doc/2522923/Designing-Freedom-Regulating-a-Nation-Socialist-Cybernetics-in-Allendes-Chile Designing Freedom, Regulating a Nation : Socialist Cybernetics in Allende’s Chile* EDEN MEDINA Abstract.This article presents a history of ‘Project Cybersyn’, an early computer network developed in Chile during the socialist presidency of Salvador Allende (1970–1973) to regulate the growing social property area and manage the transition of Chile’s economy from capitalism to socialism. Under the guidance of British cybernetician Stafford Beer, often lauded as the ‘ father of management cybernetics ’, an interdisciplinary Chilean team designed cybernetic models of factories within the nationalised sector and created a network for the rapid transmission of econ- omic data between the government and the factory floor. The article describes the construction of this unorthodox system, examines how its structure reflected the socialist ideology of the Allende government, and documents the contributions of this technology to the Allende administration. On 12 November 1971 British cybernetician Stafford Beer met Chilean President Salvador Allende to discuss constructing an unprecedented tool for economic management. For Beer the meeting was of the utmost im- portance ; the project required the president’s support. During the previous ten days Beer and a small Chilean team had worked frantically to develop a plan for a new technological system capable of regulating Chile’s economic transition in a manner consistent with the socialist principles of Allende’s presidency. The project, later referred to as ‘Cybersyn’ in English and ‘Synco’ in Spanish,1 would network every firm in the expanding nationalised sector of the economy to a central computer in Santiago, enabling the government to grasp the status of production quickly and respond to econ- omic crises in real time. Although Allende had been briefed on the project ahead of time, Beer was charged with the task of explaining the system to the President and convincing him that the project warranted government support. Eden Medina is Assistant Professor of Informatics in the School of Informatics at Indiana University and is affiliated with the Indiana University Center for Latin American and Caribbean Studies. (clip) Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Ken MacLeod on a novel about Kantrovich
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Andrew Pollack wrote: > If we were using these computers even to track prices every day in > order to have accurate inputs into an input-output table for the whole > economy, could we possibly need all these contracts (or their > nonmarket equivalent)? Not even a small fraction of them! How widely read BTW is Cockshott & Cottrell's 'Towards a New Socialism' where they sketch out a fully planned computer based socialist economic system..? And how widely is it regarded as a top work on that topic..? I've read it and think it's good, though haven't heard of very many books of the same kind. (C & C's book can be found here: ) http://ricardo.ecn.wfu.edu/~cottrell/socialism_book/ Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Ken MacLeod on a novel about Kantrovich
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Sat, 29 May 2010 07:28:32 -0400 Andrew Pollack writes: > This sounds like an important book. I'd want to know more about > Gluschov, though (and hopefully will after I get the book), and > what > alternative he posed. > Because Kantorovich's proposals on pricing reform were, as Mandel > points out in Marxist Economic Theory, abstract suggestions to make > then-popular market reforms more efficient. But those market > reforms > themselves didn't address the major problem: the frustration of > planning by the restriction of far more basic and simple > calculations, > because the bureaucracy at each level was hiding information from > itself (the central planners for instance, gave unrealistic orders > to > factory heads based on arbitrary decisions and the factory heads > lied > about their having fulfilled their part of the plan. And the > workers > were just told to shut up about the whole thing). Even with today's > computing power, the Liberman reforms, which the Kantorovich > proposals > were meant to aid, would merely have provided feedback from more > accurate pricing to a system headed back toward capitalism if the > reforms were allowed to follow their own logic. And of course more > accurate pricing even with the best computers was irrelevant to the > anti-Liberman forces. > What was missing was workers' control. And as Mandel points out > there > and elsewhere, the number of decisions needed to be made at each > level > of the economy once workers really control it are actually far > fewer. > Nonetheless, the TRILLIONS of trades made on the day of the stock > exchanges' "flash crash" last month show once again that computing > power is no longer an issue. > > PS to Jim: the end of your comment got cut off when you sent it. I think I meant to say that Ken (and Paul Cockshott and others) in the comments following the blog make the point that Kantorovich developed some effective responses to von Mises and Hayek concerning the socialist calculation problem. And the comments of Ken, Paul, and the others, do suggest that Kantorovich's proposals could not have worked unless the Soviet Union had also implemented some degree of workers' control. Andrew's point about the Soviet burearcracy itself acting as a major impediment to the realization of rational economic point is one that Hayek and Mises would have concurred with. But as Andrew also points out the implementation of workers control in the Soviet Union would have offered an alternative to the neoliberal proposals of Hayek and Mises. And Hayek's contention that a centrallly planned state socialist economy like the former Soviet Union would be afflicted with the dispersal of unarticulated economic knowledge that would be unavailable to the planners is matched in capitalist economies by a similar dispersal of unarticulated economic knowledge among workers, which is likewise unavailable for use by capitalists. Jim Farmelant http://independent.academia.edu/JimFarmelant Penny Stock Jumping 2000% Sign up to the #1 voted penny stock newsletter for free today! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4c012b6fa0c903d602m03vuc Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Ken MacLeod on a novel about Kantrovich
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == correction to previous: the trillions should have referred to dollar amounts; the trades were in the order of millions. Thus from Pam Martens' Counterpunch article on the episode: "According to Mr. Duffy, there were 1.6 million (yes, million) contracts traded in the E-Mini S&P 500 in the pivotal hour of 2:00 to 3:00 p.m. New York time Last week Reuters leaked an internal document from the CME showing that Waddell & Reed has sold 75,000 contracts during that period with the suggestion that it might have triggered the plunge." Think of that: ONE firm alone had contracts for 75,000 stocks to trade in that hour. If we were using these computers even to track prices every day in order to have accurate inputs into an input-output table for the whole economy, could we possibly need all these contracts (or their nonmarket equivalent)? Not even a small fraction of them! On Sat, May 29, 2010 at 7:28 AM, Andrew Pollack wrote: > Nonetheless, the TRILLIONS of trades made on the day of the stock > exchanges' "flash crash" last month show once again that computing > power is no longer an issue. > Andy Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Ken MacLeod on a novel about Kantrovich
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == This sounds like an important book. I'd want to know more about Gluschov, though (and hopefully will after I get the book), and what alternative he posed. Because Kantorovich's proposals on pricing reform were, as Mandel points out in Marxist Economic Theory, abstract suggestions to make then-popular market reforms more efficient. But those market reforms themselves didn't address the major problem: the frustration of planning by the restriction of far more basic and simple calculations, because the bureaucracy at each level was hiding information from itself (the central planners for instance, gave unrealistic orders to factory heads based on arbitrary decisions and the factory heads lied about their having fulfilled their part of the plan. And the workers were just told to shut up about the whole thing). Even with today's computing power, the Liberman reforms, which the Kantorovich proposals were meant to aid, would merely have provided feedback from more accurate pricing to a system headed back toward capitalism if the reforms were allowed to follow their own logic. And of course more accurate pricing even with the best computers was irrelevant to the anti-Liberman forces. What was missing was workers' control. And as Mandel points out there and elsewhere, the number of decisions needed to be made at each level of the economy once workers really control it are actually far fewer. Nonetheless, the TRILLIONS of trades made on the day of the stock exchanges' "flash crash" last month show once again that computing power is no longer an issue. Andy PS to Jim: the end of your comment got cut off when you sent it. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Ken MacLeod on a novel about Kantrovich
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == MacLeod reviews Francis Spufford's new novel "Red Plenty," about the Soviet economist and mathematician Kantorovich who developed linear programming and attempted to develop a computerized system for planning the Soviet economy. MacLeod's review discusses Kantorovich in relation to the debates over the socialist calculation problem, and he suggests that Kantorovich http://kenmacleod.blogspot.com/2010/05/red-plenty.html Jim Farmelant http://independent.academia.edu/JimFarmelant Penny Stock Jumping 2000% Sign up to the #1 voted penny stock newsletter for free today! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4c0074ea55cc23bc33m03vuc Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
