Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Michael Jackson - Marxism-Thaxis Digest, Vol 69, Issue 6
Of course this stuff is silly. Aside from the obvious, it might be interesting to delve into the ideological content of Jackson's songs and his views. Also, the social basis of his pathology. But to tell the truth, I'm more interested in the Jazz Icons DVDs, consisting of video footage of concerts by the greats such as Sonny Rollins, Rahsaan Roland Kirk, John Coltrane, etc. I want to spend my time with real music, not pop culture bullshit. But it's immensely popular with the working class, while the stuff you list is not. So how does a Marxist deal with that? Doug ^ When an idea grips masses it becomes a material force. Charles ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Michael Jackson - Marxism-Thaxis Digest, Vol 69, Issue 6
In a message dated 7/14/2009 11:45:12 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, cb31...@gmail.com writes: But to tell the truth, I'm more interested in the Jazz Icons DVDs, consisting of video footage of concerts by the greats such as Sonny Rollins, Rahsaan Roland Kirk, John Coltrane, etc. I want to spend my time with real music, not pop culture bullshit. But it's immensely popular with the working class, while the stuff you list is not. So how does a Marxist deal with that? Doug Comment Pop means popular or popular music. Who is this music popular to and with if not the working class? I love jazz and still get this fuzzy feeling playing Lee Morgan's sidewinder and Gigolo. Although jazz purist rate the mature Donald Byrd fusion jazz as unworthy, Places and Spaces has been played in my home and vehicle for 34 years non-stop. Ever young person I have played this album for falls in love with Wind Parade, Dominoes, Spaces and Places and Just My Imagination. Freddie Hubbards Red Clay was discussed on M-T when he passed. Jazz has its highbrow (abstract) aspects, and profound individuality. I do not consider Red Clay highbrow. Jazz is different . . . a different texture and individuality. A John Coltrane would not strive to play My Favorite Things or Giant Steps the same way before every audience and I believe this has something to do with the jazz form and the role of the individual as a living organism articulating time and the collective will of the group. The group is subject to the flow of life and changing moods of the audience. On the other hand a Michael Jackson performance and sound, as popular music and dance demands almost perfect repetition before different audiences. I watched one of his Billy Jean performances a decade or so after the famous performance at the Motown 25 celebration. He walks on stage with an old suitcase. Places it on top of a stool and opens it, as if to say OK, let me dig this old performance out of storage. Then he gave the audience what they wanted. A show and brilliant performance. The working class loves dance music and moving its body. The working class puts it money where its feet are. Michael Jackson understood this very well. All this stuff about MJ brings people - black and white, together is a tad bit much. I believe what is meant is how in the flesh he expressed a certain homogenizing of the culture. First in America with the destruction of segregation and the race records as an industry, and then in world culture. There is a long tradition of black artists moving overseas where American music is more appreciated. I believe the best documentary I have seen on John Coltrane comes from Japan. One of James Brown best performances at the London Palladium comes out of Japan on the Sony label. Interestingly, I recall an old James Brown interview where he apologizes profusely for any disruption his performances may have caused within foreign cultures. I do believe this was said in connection with touring Africa. Michael Jackson body of work occurs in another period of time, when America's imperial impact on the world cultures is such that no apology was needed or perceived to be necessary by Jackson. In other words capital brings us together. For better or worse; in victory and defeat, in life and death. Here is the degeneracy of our ruling class and the utter bankruptcy of the Southern political elite. Much of American popular music is southern in its genesis. The aristocratic bourbon culture of the agrarian capitalist slave holding class; their utter hate and disdain for slave/working class of the South, and then the overthrow of Reconstruction, meant thy lost forever any moral right to inherit and champion any cultural forms of American social life. It is not like Elvis in the flesh or in death could/can thrive in Mississippi. From the standpoint of capital and profit if Mississippi had developed honoring the Mississippi blues man and this unique sounds, upwards of a million people a year would trek to Mississippi to pay homage. David Ruffin of the Temptations was born in Mississippi into a gospel singing family. Won't be no monuments to a singing nig*** in Mississippi anytime soon, although it is admitted David is one of the greatest male vocalist in American history. Two of the other Temptations comes out of Alabama and James Brown South Carolina. Interestingly there is a Bogangles statue. The statue has Bogangles appearing as he is doing everything in his power to escape the old South. Interesting statue. I do feel discussion about Mr. Jackson's personal life - who he married and his children, is inappropriate to a Marxist list, unless such discussion is framework within the context of the changing form and structure of the bourgeois family as a historically evolved social and economic unit. Further,
Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Michael Jackson - Marxism-Thaxis Digest, Vol 69, Issue 6
On 7/14/09, waistli...@aol.com All this stuff about MJ brings people - black and white, together is a tad bit much. I believe what is meant is how in the flesh he expressed a certain homogenizing of the culture. First in America with the destruction of segregation and the race records as an industry, and then in world culture. There is a long tradition of black artists moving overseas where American music is more appreciated. I believe the best documentary I have seen on John Coltrane comes from Japan. One of James Brown best performances at the London Palladium comes out of Japan on the Sony label. ^ CB: A bit much ? (smile) from he of the very much posts. Anyway, the few facts I presented on Jackson's race uniting symbolic actions demonstrates fairly well that Jackson was a race uniter, which is politically important and important to Marxists with respect to class unity. Jackson was the ultimate crossover artist. Marrying Presley was an obvious and wonderful gesture for racial unity. He used his celebrity to reach across racial barriers. His We are the World project was in the same vein. Jackson had a unique and creative way of expressing his Dubosian double-consciouisness. He also cultivated a very anti-macho, gentle persona. Interestingly, I recall an old James Brown interview where he apologizes profusely for any disruption his performances may have caused within foreign cultures. I do believe this was said in connection with touring Africa. Michael Jackson body of work occurs in another period of time, when America's imperial impact on the world cultures is such that no apology was needed or perceived to be necessary by Jackson. In other words capital brings us together. For better or worse; in victory and defeat, in life and death. Here is the degeneracy of our ruling class and the utter bankruptcy of the Southern political elite. Much of American popular music is southern in its genesis. The aristocratic bourbon culture of the agrarian capitalist slave holding class; their utter hate and disdain for slave/working class of the South, and then the overthrow of Reconstruction, meant thy lost forever any moral right to inherit and champion any cultural forms of American social life. It is not like Elvis in the flesh or in death could/can thrive in Mississippi. From the standpoint of capital and profit if Mississippi had developed honoring the Mississippi blues man and this unique sounds, upwards of a million people a year would trek to Mississippi to pay homage. David Ruffin of the Temptations was born in Mississippi into a gospel singing family. Won't be no monuments to a singing nig*** in Mississippi anytime soon, although it is admitted David is one of the greatest male vocalist in American history. Two of the other Temptations comes out of Alabama and James Brown South Carolina. Interestingly there is a Bogangles statue. The statue has Bogangles appearing as he is doing everything in his power to escape the old South. Interesting statue. I do feel discussion about Mr. Jackson's personal life - who he married and his children, is inappropriate to a Marxist list, unless such discussion is framework within the context of the changing form and structure of the bourgeois family as a historically evolved social and economic unit. Further, the color factor should - as much as possible, be treated as it arose a historical question and persists. WL. **Can love help you live longer? Find out now. (http://personals.aol.com/articles/2009/02/18/longer-lives-through-relationships/?ncid=emlweu slove0001) ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Michael Jackson - Marxism-Thaxis Digest, Vol 69, Issue 6
Lke much we have read about Michael Jackson this contribution lacks any analysis in Marxist terms of why at this particular juncture in the crisis of capitalism this particular evidence of its dying culture (Caudwell's useful phrase) becomes the focus of the diversion of human energies from the task of moving on to the next, more ratonal stage in human development. Of course Jackson was sick, of course capitalism is also and always sick, but the task is to say why this, and why this now? -- -- For the latest news about Palestine, go to the website of the Palestine Information Bureau, www.palinfo.org.uk. Go well -- Karl Dallas Tel: +44(0)1274 823949 Mobile/cell: +44(0)788 077 0721 Buy CDs, videos, books etc from the HoustonMedia aStore at (UK) http://astore.amazon.co.uk/housto-21 or (US) http://astore.amazon.com/wwwkarldallas-20. ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Michael Jackson - Marxism-Thaxis Digest, Vol 69, Issue 6
Of course this stuff is silly. Aside from the obvious, it might be interesting to delve into the ideological content of Jackson's songs and his views. Also, the social basis of his pathology. But to tell the truth, I'm more interested in the Jazz Icons DVDs, consisting of video footage of concerts by the greats such as Sonny Rollins, Rahsaan Roland Kirk, John Coltrane, etc. I want to spend my time with real music, not pop culture bullshit. At 12:56 PM 7/12/2009, Karl Dallas wrote: Lke much we have read about Michael Jackson this contribution lacks any analysis in Marxist terms of why at this particular juncture in the crisis of capitalism this particular evidence of its dying culture (Caudwell's useful phrase) becomes the focus of the diversion of human energies from the task of moving on to the next, more ratonal stage in human development. Of course Jackson was sick, of course capitalism is also and always sick, but the task is to say why this, and why this now? -- ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Michael Jackson - Marxism-Thaxis Digest, Vol 69, Issue 6
On Jul 12, 2009, at 1:10 PM, Ralph Dumain wrote: Of course this stuff is silly. Aside from the obvious, it might be interesting to delve into the ideological content of Jackson's songs and his views. Also, the social basis of his pathology. But to tell the truth, I'm more interested in the Jazz Icons DVDs, consisting of video footage of concerts by the greats such as Sonny Rollins, Rahsaan Roland Kirk, John Coltrane, etc. I want to spend my time with real music, not pop culture bullshit. But it's immensely popular with the working class, while the stuff you list is not. So how does a Marxist deal with that? Doug ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Michael Jackson - Marxism-Thaxis Digest, Vol 69, Issue 6
Not a problem for me. A problem for you? At 01:13 PM 7/12/2009, Doug Henwood wrote: On Jul 12, 2009, at 1:10 PM, Ralph Dumain wrote: Of course this stuff is silly. Aside from the obvious, it might be interesting to delve into the ideological content of Jackson's songs and his views. Also, the social basis of his pathology. But to tell the truth, I'm more interested in the Jazz Icons DVDs, consisting of video footage of concerts by the greats such as Sonny Rollins, Rahsaan Roland Kirk, John Coltrane, etc. I want to spend my time with real music, not pop culture bullshit. But it's immensely popular with the working class, while the stuff you list is not. So how does a Marxist deal with that? Doug ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Michael Jackson - Marxism-Thaxis Digest, Vol 69, Issue 6
On Jul 12, 2009, at 1:19 PM, Ralph Dumain wrote: Not a problem for me. A problem for you? At 01:13 PM 7/12/2009, Doug Henwood wrote: On Jul 12, 2009, at 1:10 PM, Ralph Dumain wrote: Of course this stuff is silly. Aside from the obvious, it might be interesting to delve into the ideological content of Jackson's songs and his views. Also, the social basis of his pathology. But to tell the truth, I'm more interested in the Jazz Icons DVDs, consisting of video footage of concerts by the greats such as Sonny Rollins, Rahsaan Roland Kirk, John Coltrane, etc. I want to spend my time with real music, not pop culture bullshit. But it's immensely popular with the working class, while the stuff you list is not. So how does a Marxist deal with that? Not a prob in the sense of what I like. I'd rather listen to Elliott Carter than Michael Jackson. But isn't it something worth thinking about that many of us find the stuff the working class likes to be dreck? ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Michael Jackson - Marxism-Thaxis Digest, Vol 69, Issue 6
Well, Adorno started thinking out this over 65 years ago. And this is when popular taste was probably far more discerning than it is today, pace Adorno's notions about jazz. The steady debasement of pop music since the late '70s is not much of a mystery, and with generational turnover and the revolution in media technology, it's easy to condition children practically from birth to consume the shit that gets churned out with ever having to hear any real music, popular or otherwise. The results are easily discernable. Oddly, one feels older even than what one really is in confronting the young and ignorant. What was once mega-popular becomes completely unknown to the clueless teenager of today. The memory hole has swallowed up all knowledge of the past, even the most common knowledge. I think of a gaggle of teenage black girls I encountered in the subway a year or two ago. They inquired what I was listening to on my headphones, and subsequent conversation revealed they never heard of P-Funk, George Clinton, or Bootsy. What's this world coming to? It's not like thinking about this is a novelty. I think Marx wrote 150 years ago that the more human our technology becomes, the more like machines people become. But he never imagined it would all come to this. At 01:23 PM 7/12/2009, Doug Henwood wrote: On Jul 12, 2009, at 1:19 PM, Ralph Dumain wrote: Not a problem for me. A problem for you? At 01:13 PM 7/12/2009, Doug Henwood wrote: On Jul 12, 2009, at 1:10 PM, Ralph Dumain wrote: Of course this stuff is silly. Aside from the obvious, it might be interesting to delve into the ideological content of Jackson's songs and his views. Also, the social basis of his pathology. But to tell the truth, I'm more interested in the Jazz Icons DVDs, consisting of video footage of concerts by the greats such as Sonny Rollins, Rahsaan Roland Kirk, John Coltrane, etc. I want to spend my time with real music, not pop culture bullshit. But it's immensely popular with the working class, while the stuff you list is not. So how does a Marxist deal with that? Not a prob in the sense of what I like. I'd rather listen to Elliott Carter than Michael Jackson. But isn't it something worth thinking about that many of us find the stuff the working class likes to be dreck? ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
