Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Popularity of Atlas Shrugged: r ( theory, practice)
On 1/11/10, CeJ wrote: > >>CB: Isn't that redundant ? Leftwing anti-statists are anarchists<< > > But in the American political lexicon, socialist, communist, even > democratic socialist are banned. Social democrat is not much used, > while liberal has fallen out of use as well. > > The most one can hope for on the left is to be called a 'left-wing > libertarian'. Since most don't know what that means, at least it makes > them notice it. > > CJ CB: You are correct. One of the propaganda and mass ideological accomplishments of Reaganism has been to make "liberal" an insult, and liberals in the US after the New Deal were American social democrats, such as they were. "Progressive" is still used. Libertarians are fairly fringe, so no advantage to leftists aggravating their sectarianism/smallness by using that term. May Day will come again ! ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Popularity of Atlas Shrugged: r ( theory, practice)
As for the LaRouche question. Perhaps he and his planners noticed that some Ultraorthodox Jews (by no means all, that is a very broad categorical term) were openly hostile to secular Zionism and the state it had founded. I think one form of 'anti-Semitism' that was common in the US is the sort you see in Redford's brilliant film, Quiz Show. It's people resenting and stereotyping 'ethnics', and they have trouble with the assimilated second and third generations of them invading business and academia. Everyone loves to hate the Jewish working class guy, everyone loves to love the Ango-looking academic. Before that, between the wars, people would talk about 'Jewish animals' dominating boxing and professional basketball. Now Jews are seen as a sort of intellectual and creative 'overclass' engaged in political and economic conspiracies. That earlier attitude directed towards working class Jews is the type that is still out there all over America, with people getting away with it when directed towards Mexican, other Latinos, and Asians of various ethnic descent (including Asian Indians). I sometimes wonder too if Italian-Americans have made much progress--until they all change their names. Some even have their heads so far up their own asses with it, like Martin Scorcese, they make wretched films like 'The Departed' and think they are making some sort of relevant statement about America. CJ ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Popularity of Atlas Shrugged: r ( theory, practice)
JF: >>Since the comment quoted refers to Professor Kevin MacDonald, it should be noted that the good professor holds funny views concerning Jews which can be quite fairly characterized as antisemitic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_B._MacDonald<< I would say he holds potentially anti-semitic views and he holds clearly 'racialist' views about ethnicity, which looks to be a dangerous mix. The Zionists themselves often make such arguments. He seems to repeat that charge about Jewish personality cults and the way in which, not just Jewish Americans, but the rest of 'white American' society is open to them. >>As for people like Ayn Rand or Ludwig von Mises being authoritarian, I am reminded of von Mises's fellow Austrian, Karl Popper, the author of *The Open Society and Its Enemies*, about which, wits at the LSE used to say was written by one of its Enemies.Jim F.<< I guess some wished Wittgenstein had bashed him with that poker, while others say W. never even picked it up. But I guess others would point out Wittgenstein fits the same profile. Hey, if they weren't authoritarian and charismatic, how would they ever have got people to follow them? CJ -- Japan Higher Education Outlook http://japanheo.blogspot.com/ ELT in Japan http://eltinjapan.blogspot.com/ We are Feral Cats http://wearechikineko.blogspot.com/ ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Popularity of Atlas Shrugged: r ( theory, practice)
>>CB: Isn't that redundant ? Leftwing anti-statists are anarchists<< But in the American political lexicon, socialist, communist, even democratic socialist are banned. Social democrat is not much used, while liberal has fallen out of use as well. The most one can hope for on the left is to be called a 'left-wing libertarian'. Since most don't know what that means, at least it makes them notice it. CJ ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Popularity of Atlas Shrugged: r ( theory, practice)
On 1/11/10, Ralph Dumain wrote: > About 30 years ago, Lyndon La Rouche's disciples were actively > recruiting orthodox Jews. Any idea why that might be? > CB: What is La Rouche's position on Palestine and Israel ? I remember he had a "position" that the Queen of England was running drugs. Maybe he's like a super__ ? ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Popularity of Atlas Shrugged: r ( theory, practice)
On 1/11/10, CeJ > > What is a right-wing libertarian? A Republican with marijuana plants > in his closet. CB: Isn't that redundant ? Leftwing anti-statists are anarchists ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Popularity of Atlas Shrugged: r ( theory, practice)
About 30 years ago, Lyndon La Rouche's disciples were actively recruiting orthodox Jews. Any idea why that might be? At 05:53 AM 1/11/2010, CeJ wrote: >JF > >Maybe this angle on AR explains her appeal to Orthodox types? Some of >the discussion there looked like it was going towards anti-semitism, >so I've waded in and got the one quote I would consider. OTOH, if you >go to that page you will see cited her racist rants against the Arabs >and her call for near-unconditional support of Israel from the US. >Libertarians who hate Rand (because she is Jewish). People who hate >Arabs, like Rand. These people really deserve each other > >http://www.toqonline.com/2009/12/ayn-rand-on-race/ ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Popularity of Atlas Shrugged: r ( theory, practice)
Here we have the much-cited Raimondo (simply because he is anti-war and prolific he got a lot of mileage on left-wing lists--people posting his writings that is) trying to re-claim 'libertarianism' from the Randians, etc. I wonder what it takes ideologically speaking to make someone anti-war? Are there things that correlate strongly with it? It doesn't seem to be a very strong part of the make-up of the American or Israeli 'character' post-1945. http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig5/raimondo1.html Every war is a test, and, with this war we face our greatest test. Most libertarians, I am glad to say, are rising to the occasion: others – swept along by the rising tide of militarism and statism, enthralled by the rhetoric of warmongering demagogues, blinded by narcissism and hubris – are falling by the wayside. The American libertarian movement has gone full circle: we have come, in the end, to a replication of our beginnings. The modern libertarian movement was born in the shadow of the Vietnam war, and the split with the neocon-ized conservative movement over the question of the war and civil liberties. Only this time, we are bigger, stronger, more confident: we have not forgotten our history. Now let us prove ourselves worthy of it. October 12, 2004 ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Popularity of Atlas Shrugged: r ( theory, practice)
JF Maybe this angle on AR explains her appeal to Orthodox types? Some of the discussion there looked like it was going towards anti-semitism, so I've waded in and got the one quote I would consider. OTOH, if you go to that page you will see cited her racist rants against the Arabs and her call for near-unconditional support of Israel from the US. Libertarians who hate Rand (because she is Jewish). People who hate Arabs, like Rand. These people really deserve each other http://www.toqonline.com/2009/12/ayn-rand-on-race/ Andrew Hamilton Posted December 8, 2009 at 1:18 pm | Permalink Rand (1905-1982) was born and educated in Russia. Her real name was Alisa Zinov’yevna Rosenbaum. She is a classic example of the secular “rabbinic”-style Jewish guru described by Kevin MacDonald. The sexual dynamics of her cult were baroque. For example, Rand, though married to an Irish-American, carried on a long affair with disciple Nathaniel Branden, 25 years her junior, though Branden, too, was married at the time. Ostensibly both Frank O’Connor (Rand’s husband) and Barbara Branden “consented” to the affair. Despite her ideological libertarianism, Rand possessed an intolerant, authoritarian personality that greatly affected the dynamics of her cult. It was vividly on display during an appearance on The Phil Donahue Show where I recall her brutally castigating a female member of the audience who’d articulated a question/comment that she disapproved of. I believe the woman had prefaced her remark with a fervent expression of her admiration for Rand and her work. That exchange remained forever etched in my mind. Intolerance and authoritarianism likewise characterized another Jewish libertarian, economist Ludwig von Mises. This despite the fact that, in response to a question that began, “If you were dictator, what would you do to . . .” Mises humorously and charmingly responded, “I’d abdicate.” Mises married a beautiful shiksa—an Austrian actress who quit the stage and thereafter served as his dutiful typist and gofer. Her 1976 memoir (available online here http://mises.org/books/myyears.pdf ) displayed a painfully servile and worshipful attitude toward her “great” Jewish husband. Mises, too, was a guru in the MacDonald mold. ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Popularity of Atlas Shrugged: r ( theory, practice)
I grew up in the 60s and 70s--more in the 70s. The thing that is coming back to me now was the way some Americans joined cults back then--and how much attention they got in the media. So little wonder Rand has been identified with her own cult. I'm not saying I agree with the analysis in the two articles cited and excerpted here. Another thing at the time, if I'm recalling things correctly, is Rand's thoughts had some appeal to me because I grew up in a working class society where Christian fundamentalist was very strong, but also where many people thought the sure-fire way to get the economy 'going again' was a war (and believe me, the 70s were a time of real trouble for smalltown working class, the rest of America simply noticed in the 1980s what had already taken place in the 1970s). But I had decided I was anti-war from very early on. I didn't know about her support of Israel and the Zionist project in Palestine, but it figures. It is actually very typical. If American Jews have lost their belief in the Jewish God, they now have the identification with Israel that goes with an assertion of 'Jewish identity'. THis is actually quite parallel to the importance of American nationalism in the way Americans think. It's just that American Jews have two cases of it going--US, Israel. Even in a mild 'negative' sense (like they want to reform Zionism, or take Zionism back to its socialist roots, etc.) while helping 'social progress' in America. But I was never a Rand follower anyway. If I was reading non-Marxists they tended to be 19th century philosophers and novelists. What is a right-wing libertarian? A Republican with marijuana plants in his closet. CJ http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard23.html Ejection From Paradise The Rand cult grew and flourished until the irrevocable split between the Greatest and the Second Greatest, until Satan was ejected from Paradise in the fall of 1968. The Rand-Branden split destroyed NBI, and with it the organized Randian movement. Rand has not displayed the ability or the desire to pick up the pieces and reconstitute an equivalent organization. The Objectivist fell back to The Ayn Rand Letter, and now that too has gone. With the death of NBI, the Randian cultists were cast adrift, for the first time in a decade, to think for themselves. Generally, their personalities rebounded to their non-robotic, pre-Randian selves. But there were some unfortunate legacies of the cult. In the first place, there is the problem of what the Thomists call invincible ignorance. For many ex-cultists remain imbued with the Randian belief that every individual is armed with the means of spinning out all truths a priori from his own head – hence there is felt to be no need to learn the concrete facts about the real world, either about contemporary history or the laws of the social sciences. Armed with axiomatic first principles, many ex-Randians see no need of learning very much else. Furthermore, lingering Randian hubris imbues many ex-members with the idea that each one is able and qualified to spin out an entire philosophy of life and of the world a priori. Such aberrations as the "Students of Objectivism for Rational Bestiality" are not far from the bizarreries of many neo-Randian philosophies, preaching to a handful of zealous partisans. On the other hand, there is another understandable but unfortunate reaction. After many years of subjection to Randian dictates in the name of "reason," there is a tendency among some ex-cultists to bend the stick the other way, to reject reason or thinking altogether in the name of hedonistic sensation and caprice. We conclude our analysis of the Rand cult with the observation that here was an extreme example of contradiction between the exoteric and the esoteric creed. That in the name of individuality, reason, and liberty, the Rand cult in effect preached something totally different. The Rand cult was concerned not with every man’s individuality, but only with Rand’s individuality, not with everyone’s right reason but only with Rand’s reason. The only individuality that flowered to the extent of blotting out all others, was Ayn Rand’s herself; everyone else was to become a cipher subject to Rand’s mind and will. Nikolai Bukharin’s famous denunciation of the Stalin cult, masked during the Russia of the 1930’s as a critique of the Jesuit order, does not seem very overdrawn as a portrayal of the Randian reality: It has been correctly said that there isn’t a meanness in the world which would not find for itself and ideological justification. The king of the Jesuits, Loyola, developed a theory of subordination, of "cadaver discipline," every member of the order was supposed to obey his superior "like a corpse which could be turned in all directions, like a stick which follows every movement, like a ball of wax which could be changed and extended in all directions"... This corpse is characterized by three degrees of perfe
Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Popularity of Atlas Shrugged: r ( theory, practice)
wrote: > SEE CB, her philosophy of art didn't make you gag. CB: Unlike , Nietszche :>( > > As for the rest, I'll pronounce you here and now a far more profound > philosopher than Ayn Rand. > And when your man Barry appoints me as head of the Fed, I'll cite you > every chance I get as an influence, indeed a mentor. > Tongue-in-cheek, > CJ ^^^ CB: Yes , cite me as critic of A. Rand and A. Greenspan (smile). > -- > Japan Higher Education Outlook > http://japanheo.blogspot.com/ > > ELT in Japan > http://eltinjapan.blogspot.com/ > > We are Feral Cats > http://wearechikineko.blogspot.com/ > > ___ > Marxism-Thaxis mailing list > Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu > To change your options or unsubscribe go to: > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis > ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Popularity of Atlas Shrugged: r ( theory, practice)
On Fri, 8 Jan 2010 18:05:43 +0900 CeJ writes: > Rand certainly wasn't typical of Russian Jews who emigrated to the > US > in the first half of the 20th century, but she might be some sort > of > representative type for the ones who were better educated, > succeeded > at learning sufficient English, and managed to get a piece of the > Hollywood dream machine. > > Rand seems to have been a part of intellectual popular culture. So > while we might think of the 1960s, certainly her heyday for getting > people to attend her lecture and talks, as a time for radicalism, > it > turns out it wasn't really Marxist or Socialist radicalism. It was The 1960s was the period in which the modern conservative movement really got itself going, especially with the Barry Goldwater campaign of 1964. Certainly, Rand had some influence on many of the young conservatives who came of age back then, though he relations with the conservative movement, were often quite hostile. For example, she despised Ronald Reagan, citing his anti-abortion views to argue that Reagan was really hostile to individual rights. Earlier, in the 1950s, Bill Buckley and the National Review crowd for a time embraced Rand, then they dropped her like a hot potato. Their turning against her was signalled by the appearance in National Review of Whittaker Chambers's review of *Atlas Shrugged*, which harshly condemned the boo. (http://www.nationalreview.com/flashback/flashback200501050715.asp) What might expect that she would have had better relations with the libertarians, but was not the case either. She charged the libertarians with "plagiarizing" her ideas, while mixing them with other ideas that she considered to be philosophically incompatible with Objectivism. She was one of the most popular and admired writers among the libertarians, but she was not inclined to return the favor, although she was, at least for a while, on friendly terms with the philosopher, John Hospers, who was the Libertarian Party presidential candidate in 1972. Hospers has acknowledged that Rand was in large part responsible for his becoming a libertarian, although as an analytical philosopher, I doubt that he was all that taken with Objectivism. In the 1960s, Rand opposed the Vietnam War and the draft (which didn't prevent her from also denouncing draft dodgers), but on the whole, she was inclined to give her blessing to the military- industrial complex, in the name of fighting communism, of course. Although she abjured the label of Zionist, in reality, she was for most intents and purposes a rather rabid Zionist (she rejected the label because she was opposed to what she saw as the religious and collectivist overtones of the Zionist movement), but she was, nevertheless, a very staunch supporter of Israel. And in what I believe was her final Ford Hall Forum address, she took up the issue of Israel, and basically descended into a rather crude racist rant against Arabs. This sort of thing is continued by many of her latter day supporters who are all for war against Iraq, Iran, and what have you in the Middle East. > racial, gender and often libertarian 'radicalism' (if the latter > doesn't explain the more successful of the hippies, I don't know > what > does--especially if you want to understand why a popular culture in > the US was branded as so subversive but ultimately was so > conservative, rejecting the real misfits, like the Stooges, NY > Dolls, > Richard Hell, Ramones and Blondie). And that still is largely the > 'hangover' we have in outside-of-mainstream politics or political > thinking in the US. > > Still, there is no denying her influence was profound. Libertarians > end up being on occasion strange bedfellows with leftists over > foreign > policy and war. I doubt that we are ever going to get a coherent > and > cohesive political movement formed from disillusioned liberals, > leftists, libertarians and populists. They naturally enough tend to > hate each other on the issues that actually count (like health > care, > like federal spending, like actually standing up to militarism in > the > federal national security state). > > I had a chance to attend one of her lectures at my provincial state > university in 1980, not long before she died. I didn't go. A > handful > of literature and history professors talked of her derisively. Some > students there were interested, but ROTC jerk-offs protesting Iran > would tell you more about the 'culture' of that place. Once most > conservative types found out she was atheist and Russian Jewish, > they > thought she had to be a communist. I think if she got any audience > at > all it was some former hippies (the sort who ran 'organic' sandwich > and bong shops) and a Christian group dead-set on confronting her > about God (and Christ). > > > > http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Rand.html > > >>Like The Fountainhead, Atlas Shrugged eventually became a > best-seller. Like the earlie
Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Popularity of Atlas Shrugged: r ( theory, practice)
Rand certainly wasn't typical of Russian Jews who emigrated to the US in the first half of the 20th century, but she might be some sort of representative type for the ones who were better educated, succeeded at learning sufficient English, and managed to get a piece of the Hollywood dream machine. Rand seems to have been a part of intellectual popular culture. So while we might think of the 1960s, certainly her heyday for getting people to attend her lecture and talks, as a time for radicalism, it turns out it wasn't really Marxist or Socialist radicalism. It was racial, gender and often libertarian 'radicalism' (if the latter doesn't explain the more successful of the hippies, I don't know what does--especially if you want to understand why a popular culture in the US was branded as so subversive but ultimately was so conservative, rejecting the real misfits, like the Stooges, NY Dolls, Richard Hell, Ramones and Blondie). And that still is largely the 'hangover' we have in outside-of-mainstream politics or political thinking in the US. Still, there is no denying her influence was profound. Libertarians end up being on occasion strange bedfellows with leftists over foreign policy and war. I doubt that we are ever going to get a coherent and cohesive political movement formed from disillusioned liberals, leftists, libertarians and populists. They naturally enough tend to hate each other on the issues that actually count (like health care, like federal spending, like actually standing up to militarism in the federal national security state). I had a chance to attend one of her lectures at my provincial state university in 1980, not long before she died. I didn't go. A handful of literature and history professors talked of her derisively. Some students there were interested, but ROTC jerk-offs protesting Iran would tell you more about the 'culture' of that place. Once most conservative types found out she was atheist and Russian Jewish, they thought she had to be a communist. I think if she got any audience at all it was some former hippies (the sort who ran 'organic' sandwich and bong shops) and a Christian group dead-set on confronting her about God (and Christ). http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Rand.html >>Like The Fountainhead, Atlas Shrugged eventually became a best-seller. Like >>the earlier novel, it attracted negative reviews. Most critics found the >>premise of the novel-that the most gifted, creative, and successful members >>of a society are exploited by the untalented and unappreciative masses—only >>slightly less implausible than the major action of the novel, a strike of >>geniuses to force an end to their abuse. Devastated by the poor critical response, exhausted from twelve years of effort, and discouraged by the thought that she might have written all she had to say, Rand withdrew. It was Branden who succeeded in restoring her confidence and supporting her second crest of fame by inaugurating regular lectures on Rand's philosophy. Under the auspices of the Nathaniel Branden Institute, he and several other faithful students offered talks on "The Basic Principles of Objectivism," covering subjects such as "The Nature of Emotions,'' "Social Metaphysics," "The Ethics Of Altruism," and "What is Reason" The lectures soon drew hundreds of people in New York and expanded to several sites around the country. Sales of Atlas Shrugged continued to build—its opening sentence, "Who is John Galt," became a popular password for those in the know—and Rand flourished in the attention. Although she herself delivered few lectures at Nathaniel Branden Institute, she did tour the country to speak on numerous college campuses. With Branden, she began a monthly called The Objectivist Newsletter, later expanded and renamed simply The Objectivist Both versions contained essays by Rand, Branden, and other associates (including perhaps her most celebrated admirer, the economist Alan Greenspan, now chairman of the Federal Reserve Board) that analyzed current political events and applied the principles of Objectivism to everyday life. The last books Rand published were collections of essays taken from the Objectivist periodicals.<< >>An assessment of Rand's reputation a decade and a half after her death must >>account for several contradictory factors. Few professional philosophers take >>her work at all seriously, yet many groups of readers and fans still debate >>and write about her theories. Her work continues to appeal to those who >>search for non-religious answers about human progress and agency. Certainly >>her declaration that selfishness is a virtue and altruism a vice is contrary >>to traditional Jewish values—yet her exaltation of personal ambition is not >>so different from that of many Russian Jewish immigrants of her generation >>who savored the relative freedom of America. Despite their dismissal by the >>critical establishment, her books continue to sell. Toget
Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Popularity of Atlas Shrugged: r ( theory, practice)
Actually, one more quick comment. It would seem discussion on Marxmal re: Avatar has actually come around to some of the points that Rand makes. Of course we get the absurd proposition that Avatar appeals to Marxists (yeah right, I should say, a handful of people who post to Marxmal list) because the technology ALIENATES them in some sense Brecht said (I guess when he wasn't plagiarizing one of his mistresses). At any rate, I would bet Rand is closer to why Avatar is so popular (like Spiderman, Iron Man, etc. we are rooting for the hero (because we identify with that hero and think we ourselves are heroes starring in our own movies, called ourlives), and then his cause, and then what his cause might do if it succeeds). Even a film like Matrix had to fall back on that (and did at least for the first film, before the execs decided Neo and others blowing away jackbooted policemen and the feds was not good post 9/11. CJ ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Popularity of Atlas Shrugged: r ( theory, practice)
SEE CB, her philosophy of art didn't make you gag. As for the rest, I'll pronounce you here and now a far more profound philosopher than Ayn Rand. And when your man Barry appoints me as head of the Fed, I'll cite you every chance I get as an influence, indeed a mentor. Tongue-in-cheek, CJ -- Japan Higher Education Outlook http://japanheo.blogspot.com/ ELT in Japan http://eltinjapan.blogspot.com/ We are Feral Cats http://wearechikineko.blogspot.com/ ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Popularity of Atlas Shrugged: r ( theory, practice)
This is what I had written about Rand over on LBO-Talk: -- Chris Sciabarra, some years ago, wrote an interesting book on Ayn Rand, titled, *Ayn Rand: The Russian Radical*, which seeks to trace out the Russian intellectual and cultural roots of Rand's thought. He sees much of her thinking as rooted in the culture of Russia's Silver Age, which followed the failed revolution of 1905. During that period, Nietzsche became very popular among Russian intellectuals and artists. Indeed, even many of the Russian Marxists, including Bolshevik theorists like Bogdanov and Lunacharsky caught the Nietzschean bug. The young Ayn Rand (or rather the young Alissa Rosenbaum) became very much taken with Nietzsche. In fact what she did later on was to marry the romantic individualism of Nietzsche with the economic individualism of capitalist apologists. I think to understand her as a writer, we must keep in mind that she toiled for years on the fringes of Hollywood's film industry. She started off working in menial jobs and as an occasional "extra" on films. She later became script doctor and eventually, a screen writer. She was, as a Russian, taken with the idea of using the novel as a medium for expressing complex philosophical or political ideas. She was a great admirer of Dostoyevsky. Either because she lacked the ability or perhaps because she had a good grasp of the cultural realities of American society, she turned to what was essentially pulp fiction as a means for conveying her philosophical and political outlook to the general public in the US. Jim Farmelant On Thu, 7 Jan 2010 20:58:09 +0900 CeJ writes: > I'd say Ayn Rand is the person most responsible for both > 'libertarianism' and the 'self-esteem movement' as we know them > today, > even if she is identified philosophically with the term > 'objectivism' > (her use of that term, that is). Also, for better or worse she > helped > popularize 'philosophy' as a topic of non-academics. As I said > before, > I find her more interesting as a novelist. However, I think her > approach to a theory of art is different than what you might get in > an > academic course on the topic, and not gag-inducing. Don't you think > her insights about 'romantic realism' would explain the popularity > of > 'Avatar' more than some of those efforts we see over on Marxmail? > > For a taste, you might try (instead of a primary source): > > > > http://www.liberalia.com/htm/cm_rand_aesthetics3.htm > > However, it is this simplicity in her philosophy of aesthetics that > gives it an immediate appeal; it is not erudite and specialised > because it refers to our common experience. > > > > What is truly novel in Rands approach, however, is the emphasis > she > places on an artists sense of life. Art is universal in the sense > that every human society produces some sort of artistic works. Yet > a > single work of art is not universally admired, because each one of > us > has a different sense of life; what I like is not what you like. > But > when you and I enjoy the same art, it transcends history, culture, > religious beliefs, social environments, and the artist's explicit > philosophy. This is what I have tried to illustrate with paintings > and > sculptures that we can all enjoy, and yet which were created by > official artists of the two most despicable political regimes of > all > time. > > > > Rand herself ranks Victor Hugo as her favourite novelist, yet > Victor > Hugo was irrational by Randian atheistic and rationalist criteria; > Hugo was a believer in God, a believer in the occult, he > channelled > messages from the dead, and, worst of all, he was a social > democrat. > > > > Likewise Rand mentions Edmond Rostands Chantecler as her favourite > play. This drama is not in a league with Euripidess and > Shakespeares, it is not even a great work of art, but still, as > Rand > does, I like it. I enjoy Rostands sense of life, and I am more > moved > by Cyrano de Bergerac, LAiglon or Chantecler, than by other > greater > masterpieces, but in which I do not find the values which are mine. > Only snobs praise art that does not move them. > > > > As the etymology reveals, an author (auctor) is one who makes > something larger, who magnifies, who ennobles.. Hugo and Rostand > both > dare to be great. They portray characters who are larger than life. > They create heroes. > > > > Lets look for the artists that bring out the hero that is inside > each > one of us. > > ___ > Marxism-Thaxis mailing list > Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu > To change your options or unsubscribe go to: > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis > > Cash Advance Need cash? Click to get a cash advance. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/c?cp=G8WxFhFORIbz_Pe39PL3zAAAJ1AP8ttsZd_TbiVxkZxsC3m
Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Popularity of Atlas Shrugged: r ( theory, practice)
The young Aniska, whose portrait we see now, is a member of the Communist Young Pioneers organisation; you can tell by the red scarf she wears around her neck. What is moving in this picture is that the painter, David Sterenberg, has chosen to show the girl in the uniform of a collective organisation, while at the same time conveying a feeling of absolute loneliness ^^^ CB: I don't know , it could be moving because it shows significant individuality ( not loneliness) in the context of collectivity. Naturally, a libertarian sees loneliness instead of his beloved individuality in a depiction of Soviet life. Even non-abstract art is understood based on the mind of the observer. ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Popularity of Atlas Shrugged: r ( theory, practice)
Throughout the history of art, there have been many examples of fads against depicting images. The iconoclasts in Oriental Christianity and the Moslem law against representation of human beings are just two examples. Even in prehistoric times, we observe that the living form was often abandoned, with artists stylising a serpent into a meander, the sun into a swastika, etc. Modern art is obviously going through one of these iconoclastic surges. But why the current hatred of human forms? The trend may be changing now, but throughout the period between 1920 and 1970, there was a definite desire of artists to dehumanise art. Modern artists were motivated by an aversion to the traditional interpretation of realities, i.e. to the tradition handed down to us by the Greeks through the Renaissance, and to the classical cult of the beauty of the human body. ^ CB: One point this analyst hasn't mentioned in the development of modern abstract art, is the invention of the camera and photography, such that the skill of drawing and painting very realistic representations, including of the human body, is less than what can be done by a camera in an instant. Drawing realistically is usurped by snapping a picture. The average person can get a perfect picture of anybody and anything, in color, with a camera they can buy at the drugstore. Artists turned to other tasks rather than mastering something that will never equal the camera. ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Popularity of Atlas Shrugged: r ( theory, practice)
When I saw the painting above by the Belgian artist René Magritte at the Los Angeles County Museum of Art, there was a young American couple trying to figure out the meaning of the banner in French (“Ceci n’est pas une pipe”). So I confirmed to them that, yes, it means “This is not a pipe.” “But it is a pipe, right?” the young lady asked. By chance, I had a matchbox from my hotel in my pocket, so I handed it to her and told her to go ahead and light the pipe. ^ CB: Wait until we get to Escher (smile) ^ In a way, ideas are unreal. When we attempt to realise our ideas, what we really do is derealise them. They cease to be ideas, and instead become actions, events, objects, enterprises, paintings, etc. A traditional portrait painter claims to be able to capture a real person on canvas. In truth, what a portraitist does is to set down on his canvas a schematic selection -- decided arbitrarily by his mind -- of the infinite traits that make up a living person. This is precisely Rand’s definition of art: “A selective recreation of reality.” ^ CB: The realistic (non-abstract) artist doesn't decide arbitrarily by his mind what to put on his canvas. He skillfully and rationally abstracts aspects that cause other minds to see an _imitation_ of what the drawing or painting or sculpture seeks to _represent_. It is a "recreation" or imitation or representation of reality based on skillful selection or _abstraction_ of features of reality that tend to cause other humans to "see" and sense the reality in the art object. ^^^ I do not know whether the two sisters painted here by Chasseriau were as boring in real life as they look in this painting. We can only hope for their sake that Chasseriau’s selective recreation of their reality captured only their dull moments. When I saw the painting above by the Belgian artist René Magritte at the Los Angeles County Museum of Art, there was a young American couple trying to figure out the meaning of the banner in French (“Ceci n’est pas une pipe”). So I confirmed to them that, yes, it means “This is not a pipe.” “But it is a pipe, right?” the young lady asked. By chance, I had a matchbox from my hotel in my pocket, so I handed it to her and told her to go ahead and light the pipe. In a way, ideas are unreal. When we attempt to realise our ideas, what we really do is derealise them. They cease to be ideas, and instead become actions, events, objects, enterprises, paintings, etc. A traditional portrait painter claims to be able to capture a real person on canvas. In truth, what a portraitist does is to set down on his canvas a schematic selection -- decided arbitrarily by his mind -- of the infinite traits that make up a living person. This is precisely Rand’s definition of art: “A selective recreation of reality.” I do not know whether the two sisters painted here by Chasseriau were as boring in real life as they look in this painting. We can only hope for their sake that Chasseriau’s selective recreation of their reality captured only their dull moments. ^ CB: I don't know.The two sisters look kind of cute to me. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder (smile) ( just like meaning-beauty in abstract art) ^^^ Of course, this is the problem with art; it is only selective reality, it is not reality. There is always a gap which the artist can never hope to bridge. Modern artists decided to throw in the towel altogether. Why bother to attempt to paint the real person when this always meets with little success? If we decided instead to paint our own idea of the person, the portrait would become the truth, and failure would no longer be inevitable. Expressionism, cubism, abstract art; these artistic styles are based on this inversion of the traditional relationship between art and reality, as Rand advocates it. The painter ceases to paint objects, and instead paints ideas. CB: Yeah. This is interesting. I remember claiming as a joke that an abstract doodle I had done was a picture of the number 376 (smile). What does a picture of a number look like ? ^ Rand wrote her four essays on art in the 1960s. So what she refers to as “modern art” is the art of, say, the previous 30 years; art produced between 1930 and 1960. In painting and sculpture, the big names of this period were Nolde, Kandinsky, Dali, Paul Klee, and Max Ernst, among others. The common characteristic of all these artists is a real loathing for living forms,or at least the forms of living beings. ^^^ CB: There's another step here to "living beings", not just "reality". ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Popularity of Atlas Shrugged: r ( theory, practice)
I have just stated that human cognition begins with the ability to perceive entities directly through our senses, mostly by touch and sight. ^ CB: This is wrong. _Human_ cognitiion begins with language and communication with other humans, not with perceiving through the senses, except perceiving the language and activities of other humans through the senses. ^^^ However, to quote Rand “All the arts are conceptual in essence, all are products of, and addressed to, the conceptual level of man’s consciousness.” This is a fundamental point because we have here Rand’s repudiation of all forms of abstract paintings. Abstract painting and sculpture do not attempt to deal with the viewer above the level of the senses, i.e., the animal level. ^ CB: This is an interesting point. I hadn't thought of this in this way before, being a "doodle" artist myself, drawing lots of abstract pictures for 35 years. Interestingly, though, what happens is that, people "see" "concrete" "things" in the abstract drawings, so humans automatically give meaning to the abstract drawings, as with a sort of Rohrschach test. And ironically, given this is a libertarian-individualist critique, this creates something of an individual and unique meaning for each observer. Also, it senuous, naturally, to appeal to the animal level of humans' senses. So, people derive natural pleasure from abstract art, as well as imputing their own meaning. ^ In her essay Art & Cognition, Rand states: Whereas the essence of art is integration, “the keynote and goal of modern art is nothing less than the disintegration of man’s conceptual faculty”. She goes on to say “To reduce man’s consciousness to the level of senses, with no capacity to integrate them is the intention behind the reducing of painting to smears and of sculpture to slabs.” Abstract art, therefore, is a war against reason. ^ CB: No, it tends to draw out each individual's own reason, which is originally derived _socially_, but takes its own, unique "fingerprints" of reason for each individual. Ironically, the libertarians, reputed champions of individualism, miss this highly individualistic dimension of abstract art. Abstract art can "draw out" (pun intended) what is on each indivdual's mind. The observer makes her own percepts out of the drawing, based on her unique conceptual field. ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Popularity of Atlas Shrugged: r ( theory, practice)
In her epistemology, Rand draws our attention to the fact that we humans obtain our information about reality through a process of integration. We integrate from a lower level of awareness to a higher one: from senses into percepts and from percepts into concepts. The very first information we glean about our world comes to us through our senses: an object is either hot or cold, light or dark, big or small. At this level, we function not unlike animals. But where animals can go no further, humans can. Humans can identify sensory data as objects and can put a name on them, i.e., humans can form percepts (these green and tall objects out there are trees, and “tree” is a percept), and then we can progress by integrating two or more single isolated percepts into a concept (these trees form a forest). Even if I cannot see the forest (for instance, it may extend for miles and I am not in a helicopter), I still know by process of abstraction that all these trees form something that I, and all of us, can identify as a forest. ^^ CB: Not to be whatever, but here the author clearly articulates an individualist or positivist frame for the epistemology. The critical aspect of humans "obtaining information" is the social or cultural frame structuring it. Humans don't individually as babies or children or adults start observing and collecting sense data, and form percepts and concepts on their own. This whole process is intensely mediated by culture, language and other people. This individualist error is rife in bourgeois philosophy. ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Popularity of Atlas Shrugged: r ( theory, practice)
Thanks. I'll take a look On 1/7/10, CeJ wrote: > I'd say Ayn Rand is the person most responsible for both > 'libertarianism' and the 'self-esteem movement' as we know them today, > even if she is identified philosophically with the term 'objectivism' > (her use of that term, that is). Also, for better or worse she helped > popularize 'philosophy' as a topic of non-academics. As I said before, > I find her more interesting as a novelist. However, I think her > approach to a theory of art is different than what you might get in an > academic course on the topic, and not gag-inducing. Don't you think > her insights about 'romantic realism' would explain the popularity of > 'Avatar' more than some of those efforts we see over on Marxmail? > > For a taste, you might try (instead of a primary source): > > > > http://www.liberalia.com/htm/cm_rand_aesthetics3.htm > > However, it is this simplicity in her philosophy of aesthetics that > gives it an immediate appeal; it is not erudite and specialised > because it refers to our common experience. > > > > What is truly novel in Rand’s approach, however, is the emphasis she > places on an artist’s sense of life. Art is universal in the sense > that every human society produces some sort of artistic works. Yet a > single work of art is not universally admired, because each one of us > has a different sense of life; what I like is not what you like. But > when you and I enjoy the same art, it transcends history, culture, > religious beliefs, social environments, and the artist's explicit > philosophy. This is what I have tried to illustrate with paintings and > sculptures that we can all enjoy, and yet which were created by > official artists of the two most despicable political regimes of all > time. > > > > Rand herself ranks Victor Hugo as her favourite novelist, yet Victor > Hugo was “irrational” by Randian atheistic and rationalist criteria; > Hugo was a believer in God, a believer in the occult, he “channelled” > messages from the dead, and, worst of all, he was a social democrat. > > > > Likewise Rand mentions Edmond Rostand’s Chantecler as her favourite > play. This drama is not in a league with Euripides’s and > Shakespeare’s, it is not even a great work of art, but still, as Rand > does, I like it. I enjoy Rostand’s sense of life, and I am more moved > by Cyrano de Bergerac, L’Aiglon or Chantecler, than by other greater > masterpieces, but in which I do not find the values which are mine. > Only snobs praise art that does not move them. > > > > As the etymology reveals, an author (auctor) is one who “makes > something larger”, who magnifies, who ennobles.. Hugo and Rostand both > dare to be great. They portray characters who are larger than life. > They create heroes. > > > > Let’s look for the artists that bring out the hero that is inside each > one of us. > > ___ > Marxism-Thaxis mailing list > Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu > To change your options or unsubscribe go to: > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis > ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Popularity of Atlas Shrugged: r ( theory, practice)
I'd say Ayn Rand is the person most responsible for both 'libertarianism' and the 'self-esteem movement' as we know them today, even if she is identified philosophically with the term 'objectivism' (her use of that term, that is). Also, for better or worse she helped popularize 'philosophy' as a topic of non-academics. As I said before, I find her more interesting as a novelist. However, I think her approach to a theory of art is different than what you might get in an academic course on the topic, and not gag-inducing. Don't you think her insights about 'romantic realism' would explain the popularity of 'Avatar' more than some of those efforts we see over on Marxmail? For a taste, you might try (instead of a primary source): http://www.liberalia.com/htm/cm_rand_aesthetics3.htm However, it is this simplicity in her philosophy of aesthetics that gives it an immediate appeal; it is not erudite and specialised because it refers to our common experience. What is truly novel in Rand’s approach, however, is the emphasis she places on an artist’s sense of life. Art is universal in the sense that every human society produces some sort of artistic works. Yet a single work of art is not universally admired, because each one of us has a different sense of life; what I like is not what you like. But when you and I enjoy the same art, it transcends history, culture, religious beliefs, social environments, and the artist's explicit philosophy. This is what I have tried to illustrate with paintings and sculptures that we can all enjoy, and yet which were created by official artists of the two most despicable political regimes of all time. Rand herself ranks Victor Hugo as her favourite novelist, yet Victor Hugo was “irrational” by Randian atheistic and rationalist criteria; Hugo was a believer in God, a believer in the occult, he “channelled” messages from the dead, and, worst of all, he was a social democrat. Likewise Rand mentions Edmond Rostand’s Chantecler as her favourite play. This drama is not in a league with Euripides’s and Shakespeare’s, it is not even a great work of art, but still, as Rand does, I like it. I enjoy Rostand’s sense of life, and I am more moved by Cyrano de Bergerac, L’Aiglon or Chantecler, than by other greater masterpieces, but in which I do not find the values which are mine. Only snobs praise art that does not move them. As the etymology reveals, an author (auctor) is one who “makes something larger”, who magnifies, who ennobles.. Hugo and Rostand both dare to be great. They portray characters who are larger than life. They create heroes. Let’s look for the artists that bring out the hero that is inside each one of us. ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Popularity of Atlas Shrugged: r ( theory, practice)
On 1/6/10, CeJ > > Oops. I forgot to discuss Rand. I think perhaps at least one > LBO-Talker noticed what I already had--she isn't a half-bad novelist. > I'd rather read her than any number of novelists of the 20th century > (although I'm coming around to, for example, reading CP Snow again). CB: There's some Christian -Socialist/ writer-reader (smile) > And she warrants some discussion for her contribution to some > philosophical issues, CB: What specifically ? if only because she was such a good > 'popularizer' of an idea of philosophy, while at the same time being > so hostile to the usual way in that dillettantes use--religion. > > CJ > > ___ > Marxism-Thaxis mailing list > Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu > To change your options or unsubscribe go to: > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis > ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
[Marxism-Thaxis] Popularity of Atlas Shrugged: r ( theory, practice)
I really like Carrol. I'm still waiting for him to acknowledge that I was the one who initiated the comparisons of Osama bin Laden with Pancho Villa (I prefer the revolutionary politics of the latter though, while Carrol seemed not to know about them at first). Why he sticks around to be a pincushion on a list like LBO-T is difficult to fathom. He must really be deepdown some sort of masochist. I would say we need to get beyond these simplistic 'theory' vs. 'practice' distinctions. You derive 'theory' from what people actually do, how they act. Not how they justify it or conceal it. In stated theory, Obama is a 'fiscal hawk' (or did you mix your metaphors there CB, war hawk, fiscal conservative). In practice he is as militaristically dissolute as his predecessor. And that is the reckoning that is drawing near for him and the 'consensus' he now gets from the ruling classes in the US, Europe, and developed E. Asia. Most Europeans and E. Asians probably don't know that (1) no, the US does not have a system of public-provided health care or health insurance and (2) what is left of entities like AIG still dream about ravaging OECD systems so they can get profits from private insurance. If they do know, it would be only because they rented Moore's film on DVD. The new 'reform' government of Japan is trying to get itself worked up enough to challenge him on US military bases here. So there is one small crack in the consensus. Everywhere else it seems, because one guy managed to stuff his BVDs with plastic explosive, all systems are GO. I thought that 'theories in action' were what 'thaxis' was all about anyway. The best way for Obama to change his theory would be to stop doing what he is doing. The hope of some wishy-washy Democrats and Independents was this guy was going to listen to 'reason' more than the Bushwa warpigs. Oops. I forgot to discuss Rand. I think perhaps at least one LBO-Talker noticed what I already had--she isn't a half-bad novelist. I'd rather read her than any number of novelists of the 20th century (although I'm coming around to, for example, reading CP Snow again). And she warrants some discussion for her contribution to some philosophical issues, if only because she was such a good 'popularizer' of an idea of philosophy, while at the same time being so hostile to the usual way in that dillettantes use--religion. CJ ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
[Marxism-Thaxis] Popularity of Atlas Shrugged: r ( theory, practice)
Carrol Cox is a Marxism-Thaxis alum CB Message: 4 On PEN-L Date: Sat, 02 Jan 2010 10:56:38 -0600 From: Carrol Cox Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Popularity of Atlas Shrugged The basic fact about _all_ "belief systems" is that holders of any given belief may have quite contrary positons on every fucking issuye, public or private. You simply cannot deduce practice from theory. We are our history, and that history leads us into certain kinds of social practice, which we then _express_ in terms of whatever belief strucutre we happen to hold at that moment. What Joanna describes is that some adolescents happen to come upon Rand and find that she offers a rationale for what they are already practicing. She provides them with rhetoric,but the practice would still exist had she never been born, only it would be wrapped in some other rhetoric. One of the features of capitalist culture is that the wildest combinations of belief and practice can exist. Surely there exists at least one or two persons who (a) support socialist revolutoin and (b) are devoted followers of Rand. Carrol Response to this: Apparently Atlas Shrugged continues to be very popular: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_Shrugged In the wake of the late 2000s recession sales of Atlas Shrugged have sharply increased, according to The Economist magazine and The New York Times. The Economist reported that the fifty-two-year-old novel ranked #33 among Amazon.com's top-selling books on January 13, 2009.[8] Interestingly the antiwar libertarian Justin Raimondo suggests that Rand might have done a bit of plagiarising. John Galt is in Atlas Shrugged! Justin Raimondo has observed similarities between Atlas Shrugged and the 1922 novel The Driver, written by Garet Garrett,[14] which concerns an idealized industrialist named Henry Galt, who is a transcontinental railway owner trying to improve the world and fighting against government and socialism. I ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
