Re:[Marxism-Thaxis] Fw: Discussing Sudan #1

2004-08-01 Thread Ralph Dumain
It is always worthwhile to look beneath the surface and investigate the 
facts, but I don't trust Lil Joe's rhetoric.  There's something sectarian 
and dishonest about this.  Do you have any better sources that would help 
people unravel the situation?

At 06:34 PM 8/1/2004 -0400, Jim Farmelant wrote:
 SOUThern MILITIA ARMED and TRAINED BY ISRAELl, FINANCED BY u.s.
republican regime and supported politically by the congressional black
caucus, trans-africa, and most black american reactionary racialists.

Discussing Sudan #1
by Lil Joe
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Fw: Discussing Sudan #1

2004-08-01 Thread Jim Farmelant


Over at Marxmail, Jon Flanders posted the following
comments on Christopher Lord's article:

-
"There are no major oil reserves, no lucrative pipeline deals-nothing,
in fact, but an opportunity to prevent the deaths of several hundred
thousand destitute, sick and starving people. Under normal circumstances
this would not be enough to persuade the White House and the State
Department to get involved. But whether most Americans care or not, the
Republicans are now wedded to Sudan. And like the best of marriages,
this one was made in heaven."

Huh? This article is nonsense. Of course they are there for oil. The
problem is the Chinese, the Malaysians, and the Indians are there first,
they need to be elbowed out. Sanctions followed by troops should do it,
if they can get away with the Iraq scenario again.

Jon Flanders


and Tony Abdo posted the following response to Lord:

While Cristopher Lord's commentary is certainly interesting, his
conclusions 
are of rather dubious merit.  He asserts that the European/ US 
interventionism in the Sudan has nothing to do with oil!

He probably bases this conclusion based solely on the fact that the
Sudanese 
known amount of oil reserves are quite limited in known quantity as
compared 
to other countries (not even in the top 25).  But this doesn't take into 
consideration other issues, such as that of the strategic locale of Sudan

relative to other oil producing countries, plus the fact that Sudan is
very 
unexplored for oil, and reserves may actually turn out to be quite a bit 
larger than currently believed.  Plus, it provides a perfect rationale
for 
'humanitarian' interventionism for the US.  Add to this, the US
competition 
to drive out the Chinese from being able to stake out claims and control
of 
any African reserves (the Chinese are invested in Sudan).

Tony


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Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Fw: Discussing Sudan #1

2004-08-01 Thread Jim Farmelant


On Sun, 01 Aug 2004 18:51:44 -0400 Ralph Dumain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> It is always worthwhile to look beneath the surface and investigate 
> the 
> facts, but I don't trust Lil Joe's rhetoric.  There's something 
> sectarian 
> and dishonest about this.  Do you have any better sources that would 
> help 
> people unravel the situation?
> 
>

Well Lil Joe had originally sent that piece directly to this
list but for various reasons it bounced to me as moderator
so I then forwarded it to the list. (BTW I found this political
biography of Lil Joe at  http://www.nathanielturner.com/liljoebio.htm.

Well over at Uncle Lou's Marxmail list, there has been some
discussion of Sudan, starting with the following piece
that was posted by Uncle Lou, himself.


NY Press, July 28-Aug 3, 2004
ONE HELLHOLE UNDER GOD
Why the Republican Party suddenly cares about Sudan—or at least pretends 
to.

By Christopher Lord

Of all the unlikely places for America to be getting involved in another 
war, western Sudan has particularly little going for it. Unless you 
count a few million potential candidates for the Christian missionary 
business, there's little to interest outside entrepreneurs. What the 
country has in extraordinary abundance is problems. And thanks to a 
surprising chain of events, it looks as though some of these problems 
now belong to the United States, too.

America's reasons for getting involved are complicated, and there are so 
many highly charged factors—slavery, religious persecution, 
fundamentalism (both Christian and Muslim), dictatorship, murder, ethnic 
strife, rape and famine—that it's difficult to see through the tangle of 
complications. This has led to a drastically simplified view of what is 
actually happening.

The first oversimplification, dating back to Bill Clinton's presidency, 
is that Sudan means slavery. Though not the only serious human rights 
offender in the world, Sudan—not Brazil, not Egypt—caught the attention 
of human-trafficking activists. They, in turn, passed the fever on to 
congregations in African-American churches. From the churches, the issue 
spread into wider black political circles.

"My ancestors were slaves. African-Americans can relate to slavery more 
intimately, politically, socially and spiritually, than they can 
anything else," said talk-radio host Joe Madison in 2001.

It is this connection that first made Sudan an American political issue.

During the Clinton years, the political path led to the Democratic 
Congressional Black Caucus, Rev. Al Sharpton and what you could loosely 
call a liberal idea. But the antislavery idea was not quite enough to 
reach mainstream white churchgoers, key members of the Bush II voter 
base. Hence, oversimplification number two: The war in Sudan was 
essentially about the persecution of Christians by Muslims.

This "de-blacked" message made white evangelicals and Republican 
politicians comfortable, so on March 22, 2001, Republican Dick Armey, at 
that time House Majority Leader and ally of the evangelicals, said of 
Sudan: "It is the only place in the world in which religious genocide is 
taking place. People are being tortured, mutilated and killed solely 
because of their Christian faith."

The religion-driven interest in Africa led directly to the bizarre 
spectacle in Kampala last year, when mystified Ugandans listened to 
George W. tell them that God sent him there. In fact, he wasn't talking 
to them at all, but to Christian voters back home. Church groups, in 
this case white church groups, had also begun organizing around the 
issue of an abstinence-based AIDS policy in Africa. Without this link to 
his fundamentalist base, Bush would be unlikely to ever mention the 
continent.

But like slavery, the persecution of Christians is a side issue in 
Sudan, where some estimates put Christians as outnumbered two- or 
three-to-one by those with traditional beliefs in spirits and magic, and 
people now counted as Christians are recent converts, the targets of 
European and American missionary campaigns (and in many cases still 
believers in traditional spirituality). Even by evangelical standards, 
there are some weird versions of Christianity on offer. The notoriously 
brutal Lord's Resistance Army, for instance, a Ugandan group also 
operating in southern Sudan, claims to want a society based on the Ten 
Commandments—and abducts children to be soldiers.

The Muslim/anti-Muslim explanation falls apart further when you consider 
that there are Christians in the south, and Muslims in the north. Many 
American activists are attracted to the fact that the Sudan People's 
Liberation Movement are Christians. While this group is the main 
opponent of the government in the south of the country, in Darfur the 
Justice and Equality Movement (JEM) is avowedly Muslim, and the other 
main opposition group, the Sudan Liberation Movement/Army (SLM/A) has a 
message of equality of religions under the law.

Fact is, the issue of self-de

Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Fw: Discussing Sudan #1

2004-08-01 Thread Ralph Dumain
Said web site is very depressing.  Aside from the personal biography, the 
site seems to be a mixture of Afrocentrism and extreme left sectarianism. 
Some of it is literate, and some of it is stupid.  The article by tow other 
folks labeling Michael Moore as a white nationalist is enough to condemn 
the whole web site.  If I want to be subjected to this stupid shit, I might 
as well sit back and listen to Pacifica radio.

At 09:01 PM 8/1/2004 -0400, Jim Farmelant wrote:
Well Lil Joe had originally sent that piece directly to this
list but for various reasons it bounced to me as moderator
so I then forwarded it to the list. (BTW I found this political
biography of Lil Joe at  http://www.nathanielturner.com/liljoebio.htm.
Well over at Uncle Lou's Marxmail list, there has been some
discussion of Sudan, starting with the following piece
that was posted by Uncle Lou, himself.

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