RE: [MLL]Zionism is Fascism!
Comrades, Before proceeding with our live topic of discussion, Zionisn is Fascism, I would like to mention one or two things as to the contents of some ideas expressed by some participants, since I have not subscribed to the proper perscpetive on the international Zionism (which is announced and silently accepted by some people), . Considering the e-mails (so far), it seems that the following positions are taken by the discussants on Zionism: (1)First position: They think that anti-Zionism is anti-Semiticism, which is put foreward by neo-Nazi organizations and some other reactionary circles. And if a Marxist-Leninist asserts that Zionism is Fascism, even with her/his qualitatively different understaning of Zionism then she/he is still considered a duped Marxist-Leninist who participates with neo-Nazis in serving the old wine in new bottles. This view is irrational, to say the least. (2)Second position: They think that Zionism might be a legitimate problem, which Marxist-Leninist might consider, but it is mainly of a local interest. In view of this particular understanding of Zionism, they want to avoid discussing the international dimension of the existence of Zionism under the pretext that the international Zionism is analogous to the Jewish concpiracy of neo-Nazi organizations; thus, Marxist-Leninists must not entertain themselves, at least, with the international existence of Zionism in various well-known and less well-known Zionist organizations in different countries. In connection to this particular understanding of Zionism, if they are right that Zionism is mainly of a local interest, apart from a supposedly isolated activity of the so-called Zionist Mafia in the USSR, then one wonders how these Zionist organizations can be the agents of the American imperialists in their machinations directed against the U.S.S.R. and the People's Democracies and the revolutionary movement in capitalist and colonial countries without a well connected international existence of Zionism! (3)Third position: They think that Zionism is a racist ideology which has committed tremendous crimes against the Palestinians, which must be taken seriously by Marxist-Leninists. But when it come to the role of Zionism ( in the political organizations of Alexander Yakovlevs, the clown commentator Vladimir Pozner who thinks that Zionism is not racism, and all the Zionist tycoons in the Russian Federation, who give (have given) finanicial and political support to the Zionist state of Israel covertly and overtly) as a contributing factor among less and important ones in the collapse of the USSR and the CPSU, they state that the specific nature of Zionism can be explained by its reduction to the specific nature of the world Imperialism, headed by the American Imperialism. In other words, they dissolve the specific nature of the international Zionism in the specific nature of the world Imperialism. Of course, they think that through this dissolving process, one is dealing with the source of the problem which is the main concern of Marxist-Leninists. But regardless of the determining role of the source of the problem, one still must understand the specificty of the problem itself in the context of the source of the problem; otherwise one will end up reducing any specific problem to its determining processes of its subsequent existence , which is in violation of the dialectical identity of universal and particualr. What is the political and theoretical result of this view of Zionism? Theoretically, it replaces the dialectical logical understanding of a process by a reductionist empirical one. Politically, it replaces a specific critical understanding of any specific historical movement by its superficial brief outline (which has no important practical use), which is accepted by some people as the proper perspective. No wonder that Marxist-Leninist parties and organizations, which practice this kind of superficial explanation of any issue of importance and interest to the workers and members of other social strata, do not appeal to the workers in relatively recent years. Marxism-Leninism abhors catechism of any kind, religious or secular. Javad ___ Marxist-Leninist-List mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/marxist-leninist-list
Re: [MLL]Zionism is Fascism? (to Brian)
From: James Brian Date: 21 April, 2001 10:44 AM --- Partija rada [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't know what is International Zionism. My party leader can't be cheated by cheap monkey like Zyganov. He was just talking that Imperialists used Jewish Mafia (probably they would use Serbian Mafia that it was strong enough) to destroy SSSR, and destabilize Russia. There was no talk about some International Zionism. For Communism, Milan The mafia certainly played a role. I cannot comment on what your leader said without a clearer statement. I was just pointing you to what has already been said, and countered, about zionism and the fall of Russia. BTW, who is your party? I've never seen any reference to it. Do you have a website, or party literature? Brian Our Party is one small, and relatively new one. It is founded on 1992. by Vladimir Dapcevic (84), who was in CPY before WW2, during WW2 combating with fascism, after Tito's treachery of International Communism on 1948. he (as a Stalinist), flee to USSR. During his life he was all in all 24 years in prison, once sentenced to death, survived Tito's Nazi camp Goli otok (for Stalinists only), and shoot 4 times. With him Party founded and builded his old Comrades, and younger Communists. I wrote at the beginning that's our Party small one. And she is still small since we respect a words from Communist Manifesto regarding membership of the Party. Quality, not a quantity. Having a great experience of organizing, as well with faults done in history, our Party is ready to start with the works for rebuilding of the famous CPY (before 1948). Here's our Maximum Program. If you wish more, feel free to ask. We do have our web site (go.to/partijarada) but it is on Serbo-Croat (yet). Also, all our Party literature is on Serbo-Croat language (yet). Sorry for delay. I had too many of job. For Communism, Milan Maximum Program 1. The main strategic aim of the Partija Rada is to overthrow the capitalist social system and to replace it with the socialist social system, to establish the democratic power of the people and social justice. 2. The building of socialism should be adapted to Yugoslav conditions on the basis of the scientific principles of Marxism-Leninism and proletarian internationalism. It should also take into consideration the concrete conditions of the relationship between class and political forces in the country and worldwide. Ways and methods should be chosen that best suit our conditions, without imitating of any other experience. Things which are historically exceeded [do you mean outmoded?], and which life and practice did not confirm, should not be applied in the building of socialism in Yugoslavia. 3. All forms of property: public, cooperative and private should be respected. The main fulcrum should be public property, especially in the vital, strategic sectors that are of primary importance for the country and socialism. 4. Democratic, equal rights for all should be granted. 5. Full equal rights for all peoples - national, religious and cultural rights, should be provided, as well as the right of each people to self-determination up to secession and the creation of their own state. 6. Free education, health care and public welfare should be provided for all. 7. The right to work, to a place to live and full cultural development should be provided. 8. The principle of distribution according to work - equal pay for equal work - should be implemented. 9. All conditions necessary for the gradual transition to a classless, communist society should be created. From the Program and Statute of the Partija Rada, 1997, PP. 70-71. ___ Marxist-Leninist-List mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/marxist-leninist-list
Re: [MLL]Zionism is Fascism? (to Brian)
Dear comrade! Partija rada have a literature on serbo-croatian (bulletins, a youth paper, and other issues). Also there is Bulletin interbational on German. If you want something of that, just write it to Milan. Everything is free. N. --- Partija rada [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: James Brian Date: 21 April, 2001 10:44 AM --- Partija rada [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't know what is International Zionism. My party leader can't be cheated by cheap monkey like Zyganov. He was just talking that Imperialists used Jewish Mafia (probably they would use Serbian Mafia that it was strong enough) to destroy SSSR, and destabilize Russia. There was no talk about some International Zionism. For Communism, Milan The mafia certainly played a role. I cannot comment on what your leader said without a clearer statement. I was just pointing you to what has already been said, and countered, about zionism and the fall of Russia. BTW, who is your party? I've never seen any reference to it. Do you have a website, or party literature? Brian Our Party is one small, and relatively new one. It is founded on 1992. by Vladimir Dapcevic (84), who was in CPY before WW2, during WW2 combating with fascism, after Tito's treachery of International Communism on 1948. he (as a Stalinist), flee to USSR. During his life he was all in all 24 years in prison, once sentenced to death, survived Tito's Nazi camp Goli otok (for Stalinists only), and shoot 4 times. With him Party founded and builded his old Comrades, and younger Communists. I wrote at the beginning that's our Party small one. And she is still small since we respect a words from Communist Manifesto regarding membership of the Party. Quality, not a quantity. Having a great experience of organizing, as well with faults done in history, our Party is ready to start with the works for rebuilding of the famous CPY (before 1948). Here's our Maximum Program. If you wish more, feel free to ask. We do have our web site (go.to/partijarada) but it is on Serbo-Croat (yet). Also, all our Party literature is on Serbo-Croat language (yet). Sorry for delay. I had too many of job. For Communism, Milan Maximum Program 1. The main strategic aim of the Partija Rada is to overthrow the capitalist social system and to replace it with the socialist social system, to establish the democratic power of the people and social justice. 2. The building of socialism should be adapted to Yugoslav conditions on the basis of the scientific principles of Marxism-Leninism and proletarian internationalism. It should also take into consideration the concrete conditions of the relationship between class and political forces in the country and worldwide. Ways and methods should be chosen that best suit our conditions, without imitating of any other experience. Things which are historically exceeded [do you mean outmoded?], and which life and practice did not confirm, should not be applied in the building of socialism in Yugoslavia. 3. All forms of property: public, cooperative and private should be respected. The main fulcrum should be public property, especially in the vital, strategic sectors that are of primary importance for the country and socialism. 4. Democratic, equal rights for all should be granted. 5. Full equal rights for all peoples - national, religious and cultural rights, should be provided, as well as the right of each people to self-determination up to secession and the creation of their own state. 6. Free education, health care and public welfare should be provided for all. 7. The right to work, to a place to live and full cultural development should be provided. 8. The principle of distribution according to work - equal pay for equal work - should be implemented. 9. All conditions necessary for the gradual transition to a classless, communist society should be created. From the Program and Statute of the Partija Rada, 1997, PP. 70-71. ___ Marxist-Leninist-List mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/marxist-leninist-list _ --Free email from http://www.ecadre.net-- ___ Marxist-Leninist-List mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/marxist-leninist-list
Re: [MLL]Zionism is Fascism? (to Brian)
--- Partija rada [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't know what is "International Zionism". My party leader can't be cheated by cheap monkey like Zyganov. He was just talking that Imperialists used Jewish Mafia (probably they would use Serbian Mafia that it was strong enough) to destroy SSSR, and destabilize Russia. There was no talk about some "International Zionism". For Communism, Milan The mafia certainly played a role. I cannot comment on what your leader said without a clearer statement. I was just pointing you to what has already been said, and countered, about zionism and the fall of Russia. BTW, who is your party? I've never seen any reference to it. Do you have a website, or party literature? Brian __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ___ Marxist-Leninist-List mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/marxist-leninist-list
Re: [MLL]Zionism is Fascism? (to Brian)
--- Partija rada [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Comrade Brian! Sorry, but then I missed the point which did you raised. I was thinking on powers which destroyed SSSR, and economically destroyed Russia. You have a right. What is the International Zionism in fact? Milan That is precisely the question: What is "international zionism?" Sounds like your party leader got his information on zionists destroying Russia from the Russian Communist Party, CPRF, a few years ago. Here's an article from a communist publication that exposes the antisemitism posing behind anti-zionism in this particular case. I don't know what is "International Zionism". My party leader can't be cheated by cheap monkey like Zyganov. He was just talking that Imperialists used Jewish Mafia (probably they would use Serbian Mafia that it was strong enough) to destroy SSSR, and destabilize Russia. There was no talk about some "International Zionism". For Communism, Milan ___ Marxist-Leninist-List mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/marxist-leninist-list
RE: [MLL]Zionism is fascism
George comrade, thank you for putting this issue (US imperialism and Israel) so clearly in its proper perspective. fraternally, Alan. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of George G Sent: Wednesday, 18 April 2001 23:55 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [MLL]Zionism is fascism Dear comrades and friends, I tried to send this a few days ago and it didn't get through. Since this is still a live topic I am sending it again. (I haven't read most of the posts since, though.) George Dear comrades and friends, I am not sure what comade Javad is replying to here (maybe I missed the original message), but I would like to add a couple of comments. First, it is certainly true that there are people on the left, including those who call themselves communists, who start raising "anti-semitism" as son as someone criticizes zionism or Israel, It is certainly true that zionism is racism, as one can see from the heroic struggle of the Palestinian people in their second intifada, demanding an independent state in Palestine and the right of the Palestinians to return to their homeland, while racist Israel has a fundamental "law of return" allowing any Jew to come to Israel and automatically gain citizenship. However, there is another side to the coin, which is that some people, influenced by a variety of nationalist outlooks, misunderstand the role of Israel and zionism, in the Middle East and elsewhere, and see Israel as controling US policy in the Middle East instead of seeing Israel as a tool of US imperialism. The US imperialists have been supplying Israel with billions of dollars in military aid each year, to suppress that national liberation struggles of the Palestinian and other Arab peoples of the region, and thus to help the US secure its domination of this strategic and oil-rich region. They do this because Israel is serving their interests, not because of some sort of alleged zionist control of the US media or anything like that. it is the dog (US imperialism) that wags the tail (Israel), not the tail that wags the dog. In this context, I am not sure what comrade Javad means by taliking of Yakovlev and other capitalist tycoons in Russia as being zionist stooges. It seems to me that they represent the predominant pro-US imperialist wing of the ruling Russian bourgeoisie, and to call them zionist stooges seems to me to be raising a secondary issue here to being primary. Fraternally, George ___ Marxist-Leninist-List mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/marxist-leninist-list
RE: [MLL]Zionism is fascism
Comrade George, In discussing the issue of the international Zionism, of course the place of parasiticism and rapaciousness is given to the world Imerialism, headed by the American imperialism (your metaphor, " the dog" and my metaphor, "the parasitic creature" with its "tentacles"), but the specific function of an "organ" of an organism cannot be explained merely through the reduction of the specific structure and function of an "organ" to an oranism as such even though its existence depends on an organism as a whole. In other words, for example, the structure and function of "the tail"(your metaphor for "Zionism") of "the dog" cannot be explained merely through its reduction to the other organs of "the dog, or "the dog" as such even though the existence of the "tail" depends on the existence of "the dog". The point is that regardless of the "secondary" status of the "tail", one must consider the structure and function of this "tail" in action specifically in the framework of the structure and function of the world Imperialism; otherwise the explanation of everything would be reduced to some general expressions devoid of anything specific and historical. In this connection, of course, one likes to know what "the tail" by "the will" of "the dog" has done specifically , for example, in the USSR and in the CPSU in the persons of Alexander Yakovlevs, of the joker, the commentator Valdimir Posner who thinks Zionism is not racism, and many "tycoons" in the Russain Federation, who subscribe to the Zionist ideology and support the Zionist state of Israel politically and financially covertly and overtly. It goes without saying that there are many of these "tails" (my preference to the metaphor "tentacles" is due to having an abnormal dog with many tails!) of "the dog", which must be exposed specifically and historically. Javad --Original Message-- From: "George G" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: April 18, 2001 11:55:02 AM GMT Subject: [MLL]Zionism is fascism Dear comrades and friends, I tried to send this a few days ago and it didn't get through. Since this is still a live topic I am sending it again. (I haven't read most of the posts since, though.) George Dear comrades and friends, I am not sure what comade Javad is replying to here (maybe I missed the original message), but I would like to add a couple of comments. First, it is certainly true that there are people on the left, including those who call themselves communists, who start raising "anti-semitism" as son as someone criticizes zionism or Israel, It is certainly true that zionism is racism, as one can see from the heroic struggle of the Palestinian people in their second intifada, demanding an independent state in Palestine and the right of the Palestinians to return to their homeland, while racist Israel has a fundamental "law of return" allowing any Jew to come to Israel and automatically gain citizenship. However, there is another side to the coin, which is that some people, influenced by a variety of nationalist outlooks, misunderstand the role of Israel and zionism, in the Middle East and elsewhere, and see Israel as controling US policy in the Middle East instead of seeing Israel as a tool of US imperialism. The US imperialists have been supplying Israel with billions of dollars in military aid each year, to suppress that national liberation struggles of the Palestinian and other Arab peoples of the region, and thus to help the US secure its domination of this strategic and oil-rich region. They do this because Israel is serving their interests, not because of some sort of alleged zionist control of the US media or anything like that. it is the dog (US imperialism) that wags the tail (Israel), not the tail that wags the dog. In this context, I am not sure what comrade Javad means by taliking of Yakovlev and other capitalist tycoons in Russia as being zionist stooges. It seems to me that they represent the predominant pro-US imperialist wing of the ruling Russian bourgeoisie, and to call them zionist stooges seems to me to be raising a secondary issue here to being primary. Fraternally, George - Original Message - From: Javad Eskandarpour [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2001 1:05 AM Subject: [MLL]Zionism is Fascism! Comrades, It is amusing that some "communists" do not "bother" themselves with zionism which is fascism, but become "hysterical" when one talks about zionist stooges and name them individually in different countries, like Alexander Yakovlev and all those capitalist "tycoons" in Russia. In addition, when one specifically talks about some "leading" capitalists in some countries, who happened to be Zionists, these "communists" brand one with "anti-semitism" irrarionally as if this branding process were a great argument in itself on their part. I hope that we will not follow the hypocritical rule of silence to evade this problem in the
Re: [MLL]Zionism is Fascism! (to Brian)
-Original Message- From: James Brian Date: 16 April, 2001 7:57 PM --- Partija rada [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I must point out that this statement of Vladimir Dapcevic wasn't fully in the sense of category #2 (as you call it) nor in the sense of category #1. Dapcevic stressed that question not as a question of Jews taking on national states financially, but that they wished, with the help of imperialists, to destroy Russia. It is needles to say that Russia wasn't completely destroyed along with SSSR, and all that actions of Jews we must look as actions of capitalism himself. You must admit that there exist category #3 which represents Jewish capital, and that capital is very powerful. Never mind if it is Jewish, American, or Serbian. Milan So all this means is that capitalist interests in Russia, who happen to be Jewish, or Jewish mafia groups, or whatever, have contributed to the economic destruction of Russia. If this is true, I see no problem in saying so. However, the point I raised previously is: what does this have to do with "international zionism?" What *is* "international zionism?" This is a very loaded and troublesome phrase. Brian Dear Comrade Brian! Sorry, but then I missed the point which did you raised. I was thinking on powers which destroyed SSSR, and economically destroyed Russia. You have a right. What is the International Zionism in fact? Milan ___ Marxist-Leninist-List mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/marxist-leninist-list
RE: [MLL]Zionism is Fascism!
Comrade Brian, It is always "reasonable" to clarify what one means by her/his words, and concepts if this "reason" and "reasonableness" are not based on one's previous seeming uncritical "reasons". So, it is reasonable to sharpen the image of the international Zionism through metaphors and other aesthetic devices which are crucial in the ideological struggle against the world Imperialism, for example through "strong tentacle", "the tip of the iceberg", and etc. In addition, "the abuse" of some terms by some neo-Nazis and others cannot be a limiting principle in my choice of exact words and concepts in conceptualizing and understanding certain historical events. So, I do not subscribe to the "panic" principle of avoiding some "abused" words in the name of the infamous sensitivity of "liberals" and their social-democratic "communist" allies becuase this infamous sensitivity of "liberals" has almost always been used to cover the ugliness of our world. Javad --Original Message-- From: James Brian [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: April 16, 2001 10:00:43 PM GMT Subject: RE: [MLL]Zionism is Fascism! Comrade Javad, I simply asked you to clarify what you meant by "international zionism." This is not an unreasonable request given the abuse this term gets put to. Even communists need to clarify their meaning. Broad generalisations depicting international zionism as "another strong tentacle of the parasitic Imperialism to maintain the rule of Capital," and the assertion that "this characterization is a tip of the iceberg of "the international Zionism," need to be clarified, no matter who says them. "Strong tentacles" with deep international roots (the 9/10 beneath the tip of the ice berg, whatever) - this is the kind of language conspiracy theorists use. If I am reading things into your intended meaning, it is because you make it far too easy to do so. Brian ___ Marxist-Leninist-List mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/marxist-leninist-list
Re: [MLL]Zionism is Fascism! (to Brian)
--- Partija rada [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Comrade Brian! Sorry, but then I missed the point which did you raised. I was thinking on powers which destroyed SSSR, and economically destroyed Russia. You have a right. What is the International Zionism in fact? Milan That is precisely the question: What is "international zionism?" Sounds like your party leader got his information on zionists destroying Russia from the Russian Communist Party, CPRF, a few years ago. Here's an article from a communist publication that exposes the antisemitism posing behind anti-zionism in this particular case. [snip] Lest anyone think that Zyuganov spoke this way out of haste, two months later he was continuing this chauvinist litany. After going through the obligatory rhetoric against "ill-considered statements about Jews," Zyuganov announced the fantastic discovery that "the Zionization of Russian state power has been one of the reasons behind the current catastrophic state of the country, its mass impoverishment, and the extinction of its population." (Zyuganov's statement of December 24, 1998 entitled "On the National Pride of Patriots.") He argued that its people "rightly ask how it can be that key positions in a number of economic sectors were seized predominantly by representatives of one ethnic group in the course of privatization." For Zyuganov, the problem is the wrong ethnic group allegedly rules, not that capitalist exploitation is being carried out by a handful of exploiters from different backgrounds. So much for his claims to distinguish between Zionism and people of Jewish ancestry. Only a lackey of capital could single out "zionism" as the main feature of the Russian ruling class and the explanation for the suffering in Russia. Full article at: http://www.flash.net/~comvoice/20cRussia.html Brian __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ___ Marxist-Leninist-List mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/marxist-leninist-list
Re: [MLL]Zionism is Fascism!
Comrade Moreira, As you have mentioned correctly, Zionism is a form of Fascism. And the phrase "the international Zionism" might be used by neo-Nazis and others in relation to their own interests, but the phrase by itself with its specific conceptual content stands for the specific nature of this vicious creature. In other words, if one says that the communist movement is an international movement, one cannot simply ignore this "international" aspect of the communist movements for some illogical reasons. And if Zionism has its "international" dimension, then one cannot ignore the word "international" in defining Zionism; otherwise, one has to resort to some incorrect terminology or fallacious one, for example Zionism is a "Jewish" nationalism of a local interest. If one does not like the explanation of the international Zionism given by the neo-Nazis and others, one must expose the fallacious content of their explanation instead of declaring some words as "Fascist and racist". By the way, I do not think the use of the word "nigger" is "analogous" to the phrase "the international Zionism" for the simple reason that the word "nigger" is used and is being used in "the spirit of hate" by some racist white Americans and others, which was not introduced to define a real human being but to define their own deformed psychological attitude, which is the reflection of the existent exploitative social relations, towards the black Americans to demoralize the black Amreicans in their struggle against the slavery and capitalism. But As it is well-known, "Zionism" is a term to denote a certain social movement, which is a designation by the leaders of "Zionism", and the phrase "the international" denotes the existence of its "international" existence from its inception till right now; thus, we have "the international Zionism" denoting a specific historical movement independent of "the spirit of hate" by the Neo-Nazis and others. And if the neo-Nazis and others use the phrase "the international Zionism" in "the spirit" of their own specfic hate and for their own interests, still this does not mean that "the international Zionism" is not "Zionism" and is not "international" in the real world. Your analogy would work if the criterion of your judgment is the following: any two different words are analogous to each other in relation to their associated concepts and corresponding objective reality if they are used by the same type of people in the spirit of something. I think you would not prefer to have this kind of criterion for some obvious reasons. Javad --Original Message-- From: "Charles F. Moreira" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: April 18, 2001 1:52:14 AM GMT Subject: Re: [MLL]Zionism is Fascism! Comrades, I've read an Arab pamphlet equating Zionism to a form of fascism and to imperialism, which is true, especially in relation to Israel's expansionist aims in the Middle-East. On the other hand, I've found the term "International Zionism" used by neo-nazis and assorted anti-semites, including by anti-semetic Muslims and bourgeois nationalists who want to use it to further their political ends. Thus I would say that the term "International Zionism" is a fascist and racist term (as the points mentioned by Brian James below confirm) and it should not be used by communists and progressives, just as we would not use the word "nigger." Fraternally Charles ___ Marxist-Leninist-List mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/marxist-leninist-list
RE: [MLL]Zionism is Fascism!
Comrade Brian, I would like to make some brief remarks on your comments in order to unburden your mind of my "loaded" and "troublesome" word "the international Zionism"! (1)In relation to my ideas of Jews and Zionism, you did not have to "read" my mind and to give me "credit" with the "benefit" of your doubt, but to read my e-mail carefully! (2)You have distorted my characterization of broad aspects of the international Zionism in your summary in the following way: "So we're talking about a "zionist"-capitalist conspiracy. Sounds like this has the potential to be "old wine in new bottles" to me. Better be careful". As an attentive reader can notice easily, I have not talked about "a `zionist'-capitalist conspiracy", but this phrase is yours with your favorite word "conspiracy"; instead I have mentioned the presence of "Zionist billionaires and millionares". I think that you are either fond of or unconsciously preoccupied by the word "conspiracy" with its "mysterious" aura because whenever one mentiones Zionism or the international Zionism without the word "conspiracy", you furnish one on your own to make sure that you can serve your "old wine in new bottles", like "Jewish conspiracy" or "`zionist'-capitalist conspiracy". (3)You have found my clarification of the meaning of the international Zionism not "done so sufficiently". If this is the case, then you must know exactly how one can do it "sufficiently". So, could you provide us with your sufficient clarification of it, of course, without recourse to the oft-repeated ideas of the leaders of Zionism, like Zionism is the nationalism of the Jewish people analogous to French nationalism. (4)The remaining of your comments deal with some ideas and phrases that you have projeted on my idea as usual, probably "reading" my mind again, and have posed some meaningless questions based on them, for example, "Jewish capitalists", "Jewish capitalism" "zionist conspiracy" (as you can see all these phrases are your innovations, not mine!), "Is Jewish capitalism inherently "zionist?", "Does the apparent fact that some Jewish capitalists contribute financially to the state of Israel make them agents of a zionist conspiracy?"! If one mentions something like a "Zionist" capitalist, one means a capitalist with the "Zionist" ideology. And if one mentions that Israel is a "Zionist" capitalist state, one means the capitalist state of Israel with its "Zionist" ideology. If this is the case, then if some Zionist capitalists, not your "Jewish capitalists", "contribute financially to the state of Israel", then their acts make them the willing agents of the "Zionist" cause, not your "conspiracy". In addition, if your "Jewish capitalists" have the "Zionist" ideology, then they are "Zionist" capitalists. And if if your "Jewish capitalists" are the common capitalists with their religious Jewish affiliation and with no "Zionist" ideology, then they are not the direct agents of the "Zionist" cause, but like other common capitalists have the potential to support the "Zionist" cause as the Zionist capitalists are active in maintaining the world Imperialism. As it is clear, since we are talking about "Zionism" as an ideology, then your question, "Is Jewish capitalism inherently `zionist'?", become meaningless! (5)I hope that your mind is unburdend of my "loaded" and "troublesome" word if you do not burden yourself with your own "innovations" and their projection on my idea of the international Zionism. Javad --Original Message-- From: James Brian [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: April 15, 2001 10:48:09 PM GMT Subject: RE: [MLL]Zionism is Fascism! --- Javad Eskandarpour [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Comrade Brian, In relation to your comments, I would like to make the following remarks concerning those issues with a possible "ambiguous" language on my part. (1)In my previous commentary on Zionism, I have not considered "a broader Jewish conspiracy to dominate the world". Sorry, I can't read your mind but have to go by what you write. Also, I credited you with the benefit of the doubt by saying I assume you meant #1 not #2. So, if this is the case, then I do not see any "ambiguous" language regarding the text of my comments unless one unconsciously projects the "Jewish conspiracy" of the neo-Nazis on my comments. I was asking you to clarify your meaning, and did not accuse you of anything. Also, the "Jewish conspiracy" theory is a non-c
Re: [MLL]Zionism is Fascism!
Partija rada wrote: -Original Message- From: KloMcKinsey Date: 16 April, 2001 1:50 PM My reply, Leaving aside his occasionally convoluted terminology Javad's arguments are considerably more accurate in this matter than those of his critics. In simple terms: Anti-Zionism, which Marxists support, does not equal anti-Semitism, which Marxists oppose. All Zionists are not Jews and all Jews are not Zionists by any means. The attempt to squelch opposition to Zionism by labeling its opponents as anti-Semitic is a capitalist ruse that has been practiced for years and is no more valid now than the first time its horrific head emerged from the muck. Palestinians who are opposed to the Zionist movement but not Judaism have been repeatedly and erroneously branded anti-Semitic for propaganda purposes. Not without good reason did the United Nations pass a resolution branding Zionism as racism. For the cause, Klo Short, sharp, shock! Congratulations Klo. You hit the target better than we do. Milan Thank you Milan. Your kind comments are most appreciated. Incidentally, I think the moderators need to straighten out this posting problem with MLL ASAP. It can not help but diminish the number of participants and postings. Getting a rejected message saying SUSPICIOUS HEADER makes me feel like someone thinks I am a spy or enemy agent. Needless to say, I don't like it. The lackluster activity here has caused me to drift to another list which is not as good but is quite active called [EMAIL PROTECTED] By the way, for those who are interested, two months ago the Communist Party USA started its own pre-convention discussion list at [EMAIL PROTECTED] Looks like Yahoo is really popular these days. I joined both and am now buried in emails. For the cause, Klo PS. I just got word that the CPUSA is limiting the topics that can be discussed. ___ Marxist-Leninist-List mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/marxist-leninist-list
RE: [MLL]Zionism is Fascism!
of nonsense. The problem that you complain about, and I agree with you, is that if you criticise #1, you get accused of being sympathetic to #2. This is partly so because the fascist types deliberately mix 1 and 2 together in order to make 2 appear more real. Therefore I think it is important for anti-fascists to keep in mind a clear distinction between the two, in order to prevent this confusion from ocurring. That said, there is something in Milan's statement you didn't pick up on but which I find problematic. Quote: "Just a week a go, President of our Party (Vladimir Dapcevic, 84) told us on CC a lot of things about Zionist Mafia connected with Yeltsin. Their intention was to destroy completely Russia." What we are being told here is that the disastrous situation in Russia today was intentionally brought about by a Jewish conspiracy linked to Yeltsin. This puts us clearly in the category of #2 above - the conspiracy of the international Jew to destroy nation states through secret political alliances, and take them over financially. I don't need to remind you that in the 1920s the national reactionaries in Germany placed much of the blame for the troubles of Weimar on a similar Jewish conspiracy. And I hear antisemitism has been on the rise in Russia since the Soviet break up. So what are we to make of this claim about zionists destroying Russia? Again, can you clarify what you mean by "international zionism?" Brian James -- Original message: Javad Eskandarpour: First point: Marxist-Leninists are not against any Jewish person who is not a member or sympathizer of the fascist international Zionism, but are against Zionists whether or not they are Jewish. Second point: Marxist-Leninists do not take side with the Zionist front organizations in different countries, for example ADL in the U.S., because two different forms of fascism, the international Zionism and various neo-Nazi oranizations are competing with each other to maintain the imperialist tyranny. But taking no side with the Zionist front oranizations against the neo-Nazi oranizations does not mean that Marxist-Leninists unintentionally take side with the neo-Nazi oranizations because Marxist-Leninists oranizations and parties follow their own independent political policies towards both of these different forms of fascism. In other words, Marxist-Leninists reject this false political dilemma of either support the Zionist front oranizations or unintentionally end up supporting the neo-Nazi oranizations. Third point: Some "communists" naively bite the following political bait of the international Zionism when it comes to the Hitlerite atrocities against the Jewish people: anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism. Fourth point: Some "communists" intentionally push the idea of the international Zionism that anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism in the political writings of Marxist-Leninist oranizations and parties. These "communists" are Zionist agents. If this is the case, then Marxist-Leninists must act in a revolutionary manner and expose these agents of the internatonal Zionism instead of ignoring and keeping silence on the deadly presence of this international parasite. Javad --Original Message-- From: "Partija rada" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: April 13, 2001 2:16:05 PM GMT Subject: Re: [MLL]Zionism is Fascism! Dear Javad! You have a right. Just a week a go, President of our Party (Vladimir Dapcevic, 84) told us on CC a lot of things about Zionist Mafia connected with Yeltsin. Their intention was to destroy completely Russia. On the other hand, we have example of Israel which use fascistic policy against Palestinians. I do not wish to explain that I (nor our Party) do not have anything against Jews, but practice is what is important for Marxist-Leninists. Milan __ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ___ Marxist-Leninist-List mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/marxist-leninist-list ___ Marxist-Leninist-List mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/marxist-leninist-list
Re: [MLL]Zionism is Fascism! (to Brian)
-Original Message- From: James Brian Date: 14 April, 2001 6:47 PM Javad, I agree that Isreali zionism is a form of fascism, but I'm a little troubled by your references to "international zionism." By that do you mean the international community of supporters of Israeli zionism, or a broader Jewish conspiracy to dominate the world kind of zionism as is promoted by neo-fascists? I assume you mean the former, but your language is ambiguous. As I see it, there are two major concepts of zionism, or alleged zionism. 1) the type we are seeing in Isreal, based on the heretical sect of Judaism which decided to claim a father land in defiance of Talmudic laws forbidding it - the form of zionism that has been politicised and sanctified in the Western World as a progressive human rights cause since WWII and the Holocaust. 2) The fascist and neo-fascist paranoiac conspiracy fantasy that there is, and has been for centuries, an international Jewish conspiracy to take over the world through politics and finance - an underground cabal working in tandem with the UN, Washington and the Kremlin to bring about the New World Order, or some such variation of nonsense. The problem that you complain about, and I agree with you, is that if you criticise #1, you get accused of being sympathetic to #2. This is partly so because the fascist types deliberately mix 1 and 2 together in order to make 2 appear more real. Therefore I think it is important for anti-fascists to keep in mind a clear distinction between the two, in order to prevent this confusion from ocurring. That said, there is something in Milan's statement you didn't pick up on but which I find problematic. Quote: "Just a week a go, President of our Party (Vladimir Dapcevic, 84) told us on CC a lot of things about Zionist Mafia connected with Yeltsin. Their intention was to destroy completely Russia." What we are being told here is that the disastrous situation in Russia today was intentionally brought about by a Jewish conspiracy linked to Yeltsin. This puts us clearly in the category of #2 above - the conspiracy of the international Jew to destroy nation states through secret political alliances, and take them over financially. I don't need to remind you that in the 1920s the national reactionaries in Germany placed much of the blame for the troubles of Weimar on a similar Jewish conspiracy. And I hear antisemitism has been on the rise in Russia since the Soviet break up. So what are we to make of this claim about zionists destroying Russia? I must point out that this statement of Vladimir Dapcevic wasn't fully in the sense of category #2 (as you call it) nor in the sense of category #1. Dapcevic stressed that question not as a question of Jews taking on national states financially, but that they wished, with the help of imperialists, to destroy Russia. It is needles to say that Russia wasn't completely destroyed along with SSSR, and all that actions of Jews we must look as actions of capitalism himself. You must admit that there exist category #3 which represents Jewish capital, and that capital is very powerful. Never mind if it is Jewish, American, or Serbian. Milan ___ Marxist-Leninist-List mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/marxist-leninist-list
Re: [MLL]Zionism is Fascism! (to Brian)
--- Partija rada [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I must point out that this statement of Vladimir Dapcevic wasn't fully in the sense of category #2 (as you call it) nor in the sense of category #1. Dapcevic stressed that question not as a question of Jews taking on national states financially, but that they wished, with the help of imperialists, to destroy Russia. It is needles to say that Russia wasn't completely destroyed along with SSSR, and all that actions of Jews we must look as actions of capitalism himself. You must admit that there exist category #3 which represents Jewish capital, and that capital is very powerful. Never mind if it is Jewish, American, or Serbian. Milan So all this means is that capitalist interests in Russia, who happen to be Jewish, or Jewish mafia groups, or whatever, have contributed to the economic destruction of Russia. If this is true, I see no problem in saying so. However, the point I raised previously is: what does this have to do with "international zionism?" What *is* "international zionism?" This is a very loaded and troublesome phrase. Brian __ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ___ Marxist-Leninist-List mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/marxist-leninist-list
RE: [MLL]Zionism is Fascism!
--- Javad Eskandarpour [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Comrade Brian, In relation to your comments, I would like to make the following remarks concerning those issues with a possible "ambiguous" language on my part. (1)In my previous commentary on Zionism, I have not considered "a broader Jewish conspiracy to dominate the world". Sorry, I can't read your mind but have to go by what you write. Also, I credited you with the benefit of the doubt by saying I assume you meant #1 not #2. So, if this is the case, then I do not see any "ambiguous" language regarding the text of my comments unless one unconsciously projects the "Jewish conspiracy" of the neo-Nazis on my comments. I was asking you to clarify your meaning, and did not accuse you of anything. Also, the "Jewish conspiracy" theory is a non-class idea which is propagated by racist capitalists of other religious affiliation, like racist "Christian" capitalists. Well, yes. So, Marxist-Leninists do not succump to that quagmire of theoretical confusion to entertain themselves with this "Jewish conspiracy" theory. The rejection of the "Jewish conspiracy" theory does not mean that Marxist-Leninists do not see the international Zionism There's that troublesome word again. as another strong tentacle of the parasitic Imperialism to maintain the rule of Capital. (2)Another point that you see as a problem in my previous comments on Zionism is "the international Zionism". As I mentioned before, I do not entertain the "Jewish conspiracy" theory. So, if this is the case, then by "the international Zionism" I refer to the ruling fascist state of Israel and its "pagan" international supporters, the World Zionist Oranisation with its front oranizations which make the existence of the fascist state of Israel possible through their political lobbying in different countries to secure a tremendous finacial "loans", mostly as "gifts", and through their efforts to make a large financial contribution of "Diaspora" possible, mostly Zionist billionaires and millionaires. Of course, this characterization is a tip of the iceberg of "the international Zionism" but sufficient at this moment of our discussion. So we're talking about a "zionist"-capitalist conspiracy. Sounds like this has the potential to be "old wine in new bottles" to me. Better be careful. (3)Regarding Milan's comment on "Zionist Mafia connected with Yeltsin", I do not know what he means exactly by "their intention was to destroy completely Russia." But my understanding of his comment is that the "Zionist Mafia" was to destroy the Russian Fderation completely in regard to its remaining socialist structure because I assume that Milan would comment on this matter as a communist. In this connection, I would like to mention that there was a sufficient deadly presence of the international Zionism, as a strong tentacle of the world Imperialism,in the Soviet Union and the CPSU in the persons of Alexander Yakovlevs and other known and unknown "tycoons" who own major resources of production in the Russian Federation today. As I've asked Milan, why do you apply the loaded term "international zionism" to a bunch of Jewish capitalists who took an interest - as all capitalists do - in bringing down socialism? What is zionist about it? Of course, it goes without saying that in the collapse of the USSR and the rule of Capital around the world, the world imperilaism acted and acts as a whole parasitic organism with its different cooperating and vicious competing tentacles at the same time, which includes the international Zionism as one of its strong tentacle among other more or less ones. Thus, the exposition and struggle against the international Zionism is not to "forget" (as some "communists" and "open-minded" liberals use this cheap but deceiving propogada that if one begins analysing the role of the international Zionism first, then one "forgets" the role of other elements in the collapse of the USSR at the expense of the international Zionism; thus, one must be an anti-Semite!) the other more or less strong tentacles of the vicious parasitic world Imperialism but to discuss any subject and issue specifically and historically. Javad I am not accusing you of antisemitism. If you think that I am resorting to such a cheap trick then you have misunderstood the tone of my questioning and/or are resorting to your own cheap tricks to avoid substantiating your claims. I've asked you to clarify what you mean by international zionism and you have not done so sufficiently. I see a pattern of confusion of Israeli zionism and its supporters with Jewish capitalists intent on destroying former socialist countries like Russia. Is Jewish capitalism inherently "zionist?" Does the apparent fact that some Jewish capitalists contribute financially to the state of Israel make them agents of a zionist conspiracy? Is this the kind of
Re: [MLL]Zionism is Fascism!
Comrade Milan, First point: Marxist-Leninists are not against any Jewish person who is not a member or sympathizer of the fascist international Zionism, but are against Zionists whether or not they are Jewish. Second point: Marxist-Leninists do not take side with the Zionist front organizations in different countries, for example ADL in the U.S., because two different forms of fascism, the international Zionism and various neo-Nazi oranizations are competing with each other to maintain the imperialist tyranny. But taking no side with the Zionist front oranizations against the neo-Nazi oranizations does not mean that Marxist-Leninists unintentionally take side with the neo-Nazi oranizations because Marxist-Leninists oranizations and parties follow their own independent political policies towards both of these different forms of fascism. In other words, Marxist-Leninists reject this false political dilemma of either support the Zionist front oranizations or unintentionally end up supporting the neo-Nazi oranizations. Third point: Some "communists" naively bite the following political bait of the international Zionism when it comes to the Hitlerite atrocities against the Jewish people: anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism. Fourth point: Some "communists" intentionally push the idea of the international Zionism that anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism in the political writings of Marxist-Leninist oranizations and parties. These "communists" are Zionist agents. If this is the case, then Marxist-Leninists must act in a revolutionary manner and expose these agents of the internatonal Zionism instead of ignoring and keeping silence on the deadly presence of this international parasite. Javad --Original Message-- From: "Partija rada" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: April 13, 2001 2:16:05 PM GMT Subject: Re: [MLL]Zionism is Fascism! Dear Javad! You have a right. Just a week a go, President of our Party (Vladimir Dapcevic, 84) told us on CC a lot of things about Zionist Mafia connected with Yeltsin. Their intention was to destroy completely Russia. On the other hand, we have example of Israel which use fascistic policy against Palestinians. I do not wish to explain that I (nor our Party) do not have anything against Jews, but practice is what is important for Marxist-Leninists. Milan ___ Marxist-Leninist-List mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/marxist-leninist-list
