Re: [MBZ] O.T Catheyesque (Call Mr. Webster)

2007-10-23 Thread Tom Hargrave
Door stops are service items. You replace it with a new one or with barely
used ones from the passenger side of a donor Mercedes when it wears out.

Thanks,
Tom Hargrave
www.kegkits.com
256-656-1924
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Loren Faeth
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 10:40 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] O.T Catheyesque (Call Mr. Webster)

Well, you never included those points in your narratives, so we all 
think you are MR. FIXIT!  Besides those door stops have BALLS, not BBs.

Course, if I were telling the story, I'd probably leave out the 
details of the failures


Mr Jim Cathey, you are the definition of 
Catheyesque.   Congratulations!  Now you  can frame the certificate 
and hang it on your wall.


I am trying to see if I get up nerve to tackle another door 
stop.  After the last (first) one, I decided next time I should just 
scrounge a used one or keep Rusty in the Q business.


At 08:24 PM 10/23/2007, you wrote:
> > I coined the term for making the thing work without buying a (new or
> > used) replacement part.  As in covering the plug wires with plastic
> > and silicone seal, or taking apart a door stop , cleaning it and
> > reloading all the newly lubed springs and balls without loosing any or
> > injury.
>
>Oh, so the gashes I've given myself and the launched-across-the-garage
>BB's lost forever disqualify me?  Dang!
>
>-- Jim
>
>
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Loren Faeth 


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Re: [MBZ] Restored 600 on Portland CL

2007-10-23 Thread Tom Hargrave
But, for 68 grand you can have a Mercedes that dims gas station lights as it
passes by and sucks money from your wallet any time you get within 10 miles
of a Mercedes Stealership!

Thanks,
Tom Hargrave
www.kegkits.com
256-656-1924
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Kevin Kraly
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 10:55 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Restored 600 on Portland CL

I couldn't believe it when I saw the price!  68 GRAND is a lot of money! 
Just think of how many 300SD's I could buy for that kind of money!

Kevin in Hillsboro, OR
1983 300SD 267Kmi, Ursula 


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[MBZ] 1980 300D climate control

2007-10-23 Thread Douglas Sherman
Scott I am looking over the schematics, seems rather well done BTW! You 
mentioned that you had relevant pages for the electrical troubleshooting 
manual? Yes I would really like to get them also if its not to much trouble. I 
think that for some reason the sensor chain could be open to the AMP. Going to 
check that tomorrow. Though when I select the Defrost the Servo doesn't move 
from the cold position.

Also I would imagine the freon being gone after 2 years. Going to add so to see 
if it comes on. 

Thanks Again all for the help

Douglas
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[MBZ] OT microsoft exhange server

2007-10-23 Thread siteforum
Kaleb,

Well, there are masochists everywhere around the world, even here, don't
ask...

When you ask for a email program i think in a email client software, am
i right?

Try sylpheed-claws or Firebird (i use both) and you'll not be disapointed.

Best regards,

RSalles


Kaleb wrote:

Our company started using microsoft exhange for our email.  I hate it.
It requires using Outlook, which I also hate.  Is there some other email
program that will work with a microsoft exhange server?



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[MBZ] B2 piston question

2007-10-23 Thread Chris Lane
Ok, so here is the situation.  I have a 1982 300SD with a bad B2 piston.  I
know its bad, I had the "classic symptoms", took it apart, and the piston
came out in pieces, several of them actually.  I have a new piston ready to
go in, I have the new plastic ring to replace the old metal one, new orange
O ring to replace the old one, a bunch of fresh new tranny fluid ready to go
in.  This is a 722.303 transmission.  So, here is my question, in order to
get to the old metal ring which I have been hearing is very important to
replace, there is a seal of some sort that goes between the metal ring and
the flat part of the piston itself.  I guess I missed seeing it in any of
the pictures I have seen of this repair being done, and there was no mention
of it made on any of the sites I have seen.  This little seal is a bear to
get out, and I have no idea what the part number is to replace it because it
didn't come out in one piece.  Does anybody have any idea what the Mercedes
part number is for this little rubber seal?  I'm going to need to get to the
dealer to get it, and they don't know what I'm talking about.  I suspect
that they would rather sell me a new tranny and charge me labor for that job
than sell me the parts I need.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Chris
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Re: [MBZ] 1980 300D climate control

2007-10-23 Thread Jim Cathey
> The A/C system hasn't run in 2 years does that presure switch at the 
> drier cut out on high or low.

Just low pressure cutout at that age.  Low and high came later.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] Help with Shop Manual CD

2007-10-23 Thread siteforum
Wray,

I have here the hole CD-WIS set running under Linux/Fedora 6.0 with 
Firefox 2.0 and no Flash, only the superb Steve Nervig's Library files. 
No deps to fill, no fancy animated menus, only the essential and i'm 
happy with that.

Best regards,

RSalles





Wray Stanley wrote:
I have had an official Model 124 Service Manual Library on CD for about 8
years.
It's recently become almost impossible to use with my current XP computer
with latest updates.
Among other problems, the version of Netscape it wants to use and the
current version of Adobe won't talk to each other.  I now have to resort to
searching though all the files with windows explorer until I trip upon what
I am looking for.

Anyway, a few years ago, someone on one of these lists gave me a "macro"
type program that would index, list and open exaclty the file I was looking
for without going through all those lame graphics the CD tries to use.  That
program was on a hard disk that failed, some time ago, and I sure miss it.

Does anyone know what I am talking about?  Can anyone share such a program
with me?

Ned Kleinhenz
'95 E300D x2

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Re: [MBZ] U-pull haul

2007-10-23 Thread Loren Faeth
These monkeys pull the tire irons and jacks before they put them 
out.  Won't find your wrench here.


At 08:23 PM 10/23/2007, you wrote:
> > And then I found a 114 220D.
>
>That'd be a 115.
>
>I am in the market for a lug wrench, the factory kind
>with two bends in it (crank-style) that clips into the
>brackets in the trunk of 114/115 bodies.
>
>-- Jim
>
>
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Loren Faeth 


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Re: [MBZ] U-pull haul

2007-10-23 Thread Loren Faeth
none to be found around here.  Wanna buy me one, and ship it to me?
I even called the yard whose truck I saw haul in a late model 124 a 
few weeks ago.  They must have sold it as a "builder"


At 09:28 PM 10/23/2007, you wrote:
>Don't have an extra one, but I bought OE 8 hole wheels for the 124 at
>the local yard for $75 each.
>
> > If anyone has a spare, I am in the market for a OE wheel for late
> > 124.  8 hole style.  Seems my 15 hole 126 wheels are near worthless,
> > but for the 8 hole 124 wheels, the junkyards want the same price as a
> > new look-alike wheel.
> >
> > Loren Faeth
> > too many Benzes, flat wallet
>
>--
>OK Don, KD5NRO
>Norman, OK
>"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics."
>-Benjamin Disraeli
>'90 300D, '87 300SDL, '81 240D, '78 450SLC, '97 Ply Grand Voyager
>
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Loren Faeth 


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Re: [MBZ] Cheap Rod Bender

2007-10-23 Thread Kevin Kraly
And how do you know this?

The same exact ad was on Portland CL too.

Kevin in Hillsboro, OR
1983 300SD 267Kmi, Ursula

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Re: [MBZ] Restored 600 on Portland CL

2007-10-23 Thread Kevin Kraly
I couldn't believe it when I saw the price!  68 GRAND is a lot of money! 
Just think of how many 300SD's I could buy for that kind of money!

Kevin in Hillsboro, OR
1983 300SD 267Kmi, Ursula 


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Re: [MBZ] O.T Catheyesque (Call Mr. Webster)

2007-10-23 Thread Loren Faeth
Well, you never included those points in your narratives, so we all 
think you are MR. FIXIT!  Besides those door stops have BALLS, not BBs.

Course, if I were telling the story, I'd probably leave out the 
details of the failures


Mr Jim Cathey, you are the definition of 
Catheyesque.   Congratulations!  Now you  can frame the certificate 
and hang it on your wall.


I am trying to see if I get up nerve to tackle another door 
stop.  After the last (first) one, I decided next time I should just 
scrounge a used one or keep Rusty in the Q business.


At 08:24 PM 10/23/2007, you wrote:
> > I coined the term for making the thing work without buying a (new or
> > used) replacement part.  As in covering the plug wires with plastic
> > and silicone seal, or taking apart a door stop , cleaning it and
> > reloading all the newly lubed springs and balls without loosing any or
> > injury.
>
>Oh, so the gashes I've given myself and the launched-across-the-garage
>BB's lost forever disqualify me?  Dang!
>
>-- Jim
>
>
>___
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>For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/
>For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Loren Faeth 


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Re: [MBZ] 88 560 sec fuel pressure

2007-10-23 Thread Peter Frederick
All K and KE jets are the same -- 3 bar I think.  Note that you must 
also check the differential pressure between the upper and lower 
chambers in the fuel distributor, and I don't remember what the 
pressure differential has to be.  I'm fairly sure that 130 psi is too 
high.

Check your return line for blockage -- if the return is plugged, the 
main side fuel pressure is so high the fuel delivery valves shut off.

Another cause of low speed stall is the idle control valve (sticks 
closed, shuts the fuel off) and air leaks in the manifold halves and 
the boot between the throttle body and the air flow meter horn.

Peter


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[MBZ] 88 560 sec fuel pressure

2007-10-23 Thread Ronald Courcy
Anyone know the proper fuel pressure for a 88 560sec?  I get about 130 psi when 
I measure it after the second fuel pump ( using banjo bolt and gauge). Car died 
at slow speed, appears to have compression and spark.
Thanks Ron
 
88 560 sec, 87 300sdl , 85 300d, 83 300cd, 78 300cd, 80 300sd (parts car), 87 
300d (parts car), 01 f350 diesel
_
Climb to the top of the charts!  Play Star Shuffle:  the word scramble 
challenge with star power.
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Re: [MBZ] VOA

2007-10-23 Thread RELNGSON
<>

Volkswagen of America (VOA) was the US importer into the '80s. Porsche/Audi 
came later. Then later Porsche Cars North America (includes Canada) which is 
still the importer which all the dealers answer to. All US market cars come 
into 
Charleston SC and are trucked from there. PCNA headquarters used to be in 
Reno but is now in Atlanta.

RLE


**
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Re: [MBZ] U-pull haul

2007-10-23 Thread OK Don
Don't have an extra one, but I bought OE 8 hole wheels for the 124 at
the local yard for $75 each.

> If anyone has a spare, I am in the market for a OE wheel for late
> 124.  8 hole style.  Seems my 15 hole 126 wheels are near worthless,
> but for the 8 hole 124 wheels, the junkyards want the same price as a
> new look-alike wheel.
>
> Loren Faeth
> too many Benzes, flat wallet

-- 
OK Don, KD5NRO
Norman, OK
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics."
-Benjamin Disraeli
'90 300D, '87 300SDL, '81 240D, '78 450SLC, '97 Ply Grand Voyager

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[MBZ] 1980 300D climate control

2007-10-23 Thread Douglas Sherman
Scott thank you very much for the information on the Servo. I spent the 
afternoon setting it up and it will drive to all positions and then park via 
pin 3. 

I was able to get the compressor clutch to engage by shorting the switch at the 
drier? I think that the A/C Amp is what is the trouble. I have 2 and 1 that I 
can use for parts with your schematic I am hoping that I can get the AMP to 
work. I seems to just drive to cold. I am thinking that one of the push pull 
transistors is bad, maybe more. 

The A/C system hasn't run in 2 years does that presure switch at the drier cut 
out on high or low. When I jumpered it the air didn't seem cold. I am going to 
get some guages tomorrow. 

I really appreciate all your help thanks again!

Douglas
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Re: [MBZ] Plastic Key Tops...Rusty

2007-10-23 Thread OK Don
Several of us have found that keys from the locksmiths tend to wear
the tumblers and themselves rapidly. I now only order new keys from
Rusty (when he can get them) or the dealer. I thought I once had a
worn tumbler - took a lot of jiggling to open the door - got the new
MB key, and the lock is a smooth as a new one.

On 10/23/07, EDWARD DENNIS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi all,
>   I am convinced. I am scared to the point I ordered 2 new keys from my 
> locksmith.
>
>   Ed in Chicago
>

-- 
OK Don, KD5NRO
Norman, OK
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics."
-Benjamin Disraeli
'90 300D, '87 300SDL, '81 240D, '78 450SLC, '97 Ply Grand Voyager

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[MBZ] Combination switch . . . all other functions appear

2007-10-23 Thread Glenn Brown
Re: I do that by turning the fuses in the holder.  in 99% of the time, that
works.

Loren

Did that as well, no change.

G. M. Brown
Brevard, NC
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[MBZ] Combination switch . . . all other functions appear

2007-10-23 Thread Glenn Brown
Re: You might also try cleaning the contacts where the fuses insert.

Randy

The fuse contacts all have a thin coating of conductive grease to prevent
oxidation and allow good electron transfer, and all fuses were
rotated/whatever to see if there was any loss of contact and all was still
OK except for the hi beam flash mode.

G. M. Brown
Brevard, NC
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Re: [MBZ] Post Falls SL

2007-10-23 Thread Jim Cathey
It promised to be a beautiful day, so I put the top down.  It was still
pretty chilly, and as I was pushing the top down into place I heard a
loud 'POP'.  Yep, one of the rear quarter windows split completely
across.  Crap.

After work I stopped by the upholstery shop.  They sold me a scrap of
vinyl side-curtain material for $5 (the material's priced at about $18 a
yard), it should be enough to do two or three of those windows.  My
current idea is to cut out the old material leaving about a 1/4" rim,
and glue a new piece to that.  Not beautiful, but it might not be too
bad, either.  I guess we'll see.  Or not.  I do know that a tape job
really looks bad, and doesn't hold up all that long.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] VW

2007-10-23 Thread Jim Cathey
> I thought the 928 used a transaxle, or is that just the 924/944?

I think you're right.  I don't have one, but I worked with
a couple of guys who did.  They're who told me that it used
the same tranny as my car.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] VW

2007-10-23 Thread Mitch Haley


Jim Cathey wrote:
> The 928-S4's tranny is the exact one in a 560 SL, so I'm told.
> Same as late 126.

I thought the 928 used a transaxle, or is that just the 924/944?

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Re: [MBZ] 1980 300D climate control (w/Servo)

2007-10-23 Thread Mitch Haley


Scott Ritchey wrote:

> The scan files are big and all attachments will probably be stripped from
> the list copy.

Thank you.

Kleb, what's up with the server settings? I can never download an attachment
in one shot, the server kicks me off after 30-50kb and I have to restart the
download. It's sort of a pain to download a picture of an ignition key in
5 pieces, but the bigger attachments are awful. The .pdfs for the climate
control articles took me 52 downloads for the 2.4mb one and 91 downloads
for the 3.6mb article. Is there any way to set your server to cooperate with 
those of us downloading through POTS at 3k per second without cutting us
off every 10-20 seconds?

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Re: [MBZ] VW

2007-10-23 Thread E M
928 was a transaxle with a torque tube, so I think the case is different,
but all the internals are the same though.

Ed
300E

On 23/10/2007, Jim Cathey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > I think the 5 speed box in the Boxster is also VW, and the guts of the
> > auto
> > box in the 928 is S Class.  Porsche also did the final assemble of the
> > W124
> > E500 I think?  I'm sure there's lots of other stuff too.
>
> The 928-S4's tranny is the exact one in a 560 SL, so I'm told.
> Same as late 126.
>
> -- Jim
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] The Good Stuff

2007-10-23 Thread Jim Cathey
> How do you feel about pop rivets?

Pop rivets: Bad.  JB Weld: Good.  (Though I don't use so much
of it anymore, Shoe Goo usually works better for what I fix.)

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] U-pull haul

2007-10-23 Thread Wonko the Sane
Drive on over, spend the night with us, pick & pull, then go home.

On 10/23/07, Jim Cathey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > And then I found a 114 220D.
>
> That'd be a 115.
>
> I am in the market for a lug wrench, the factory kind
> with two bends in it (crank-style) that clips into the
> brackets in the trunk of 114/115 bodies.
>
> -- Jim
>
>
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Proudly marching to the beat of a different kettle of fish.

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Re: [MBZ] Mileage surprise

2007-10-23 Thread Jim Cathey
> Still it drove pretty good but why are all steering wheels so small 
> now?

So you can still drive them while in handcuffs.
Never know when that'll come in handy, gangstas.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] O.T Catheyesque (Call Mr. Webster)

2007-10-23 Thread Jim Cathey
> I coined the term for making the thing work without buying a (new or
> used) replacement part.  As in covering the plug wires with plastic
> and silicone seal, or taking apart a door stop , cleaning it and
> reloading all the newly lubed springs and balls without loosing any or 
> injury.

Oh, so the gashes I've given myself and the launched-across-the-garage
BB's lost forever disqualify me?  Dang!

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] VW

2007-10-23 Thread Jim Cathey
> I think the 5 speed box in the Boxster is also VW, and the guts of the 
> auto
> box in the 928 is S Class.  Porsche also did the final assemble of the 
> W124
> E500 I think?  I'm sure there's lots of other stuff too.

The 928-S4's tranny is the exact one in a 560 SL, so I'm told.
Same as late 126.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] U-pull haul

2007-10-23 Thread Jim Cathey
> And then I found a 114 220D.

That'd be a 115.

I am in the market for a lug wrench, the factory kind
with two bends in it (crank-style) that clips into the
brackets in the trunk of 114/115 bodies.

-- Jim


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[MBZ] Plastic key tops

2007-10-23 Thread wilton strickland
They may look alike at first glance, but they're not all alike.

Wilton

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Re: [MBZ] Plastic Key Tops...Rusty

2007-10-23 Thread EDWARD DENNIS
Hi all,
  I am convinced. I am scared to the point I ordered 2 new keys from my 
locksmith.
   
  Ed in Chicago

Mitch Haley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  

E M wrote:
> 
> I still want to know what you guys are doing to break your keys?? ha ha
> ha. After reading the tread, I had to go and have a really good look at all
> the keys, which are original. 

My 20 year old keys are fine, but some are a bit twisted in the plastic head.
My 7 year old key that came with the replacement cylinder on the W116 is junk
in comparison.

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Re: [MBZ] U-pull haul

2007-10-23 Thread Wonko the Sane
All I need is the 126 that needs parts.

On 10/23/07, Loren Faeth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> wrench and go.  I told you about the 126 they had there last fall
>
> At 07:32 PM 10/23/2007, you wrote:
> >You found Benz stuff in Des Moines? Where? Last time I checked, there was
> >but ONE W-126 in the Ames boneyard, and that was it for our area.
> >
> >On 10/23/07, Loren Faeth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > But I stumbled across a 450SEL 116.  145K engine appears to be
> > > intact  Blue leather  Dash has been ripped apart.
> > >
> > > And then I found a 114 220D.  Body is rusted to bits. hood is good.
> > > engine and trans are there.  One injector line is broken.  probably
> > > final cause of death.  I'd guess it is a running engine with one
> > > replacement line and maybe a new nozzle.  Burgundy interior (tex) in
> > > good shape.  firm seats.  Bottom of driver's seat is torn, but
> repairable
> > > IMHO
> > >
> > > I
> >
> >
> >
> >--
> >LT Don
> >http://don.homelinux.net/~don/
> >Proudly marching to the beat of a different kettle of fish.
> >
> >Make a small loan, Make a big difference - Kiva.org
> >___
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> >For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> >http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
> Loren Faeth
>
>
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LT Don
http://don.homelinux.net/~don/
Proudly marching to the beat of a different kettle of fish.

Make a small loan, Make a big difference - Kiva.org
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Re: [MBZ] Plastic Key Tops...Rusty

2007-10-23 Thread Mitch Haley


E M wrote:
> 
> I still want to know what you guys are doing to break your keys??  ha ha
> ha.  After reading the tread, I had to go and have a really good look at all
> the keys, which are original. 

My 20 year old keys are fine, but some are a bit twisted in the plastic head.
My 7 year old key that came with the replacement cylinder on the W116 is junk
in comparison.

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Re: [MBZ] U-pull haul

2007-10-23 Thread Loren Faeth
wrench and go.  I told you about the 126 they had there last fall

At 07:32 PM 10/23/2007, you wrote:
>You found Benz stuff in Des Moines? Where? Last time I checked, there was
>but ONE W-126 in the Ames boneyard, and that was it for our area.
>
>On 10/23/07, Loren Faeth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > But I stumbled across a 450SEL 116.  145K engine appears to be
> > intact  Blue leather  Dash has been ripped apart.
> >
> > And then I found a 114 220D.  Body is rusted to bits. hood is good.
> > engine and trans are there.  One injector line is broken.  probably
> > final cause of death.  I'd guess it is a running engine with one
> > replacement line and maybe a new nozzle.  Burgundy interior (tex) in
> > good shape.  firm seats.  Bottom of driver's seat is torn, but repairable
> > IMHO
> >
> > I
>
>
>
>--
>LT Don
>http://don.homelinux.net/~don/
>Proudly marching to the beat of a different kettle of fish.
>
>Make a small loan, Make a big difference - Kiva.org
>___
>http://www.okiebenz.com
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Loren Faeth 


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Re: [MBZ] Greetings

2007-10-23 Thread Wonko the Sane
'Nuff said. Welcome to the dark side.

On 10/23/07, Bruce Cargin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Greetings,
>
> I'm Bruce Cargin from Hastings, MN I've been lurking for awhile and have
> been a member of another Benz list for a couple of years now,


-- 
LT Don
http://don.homelinux.net/~don/
Proudly marching to the beat of a different kettle of fish.

Make a small loan, Make a big difference - Kiva.org
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Re: [MBZ] U-pull haul

2007-10-23 Thread Wonko the Sane
You found Benz stuff in Des Moines? Where? Last time I checked, there was
but ONE W-126 in the Ames boneyard, and that was it for our area.

On 10/23/07, Loren Faeth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
> But I stumbled across a 450SEL 116.  145K engine appears to be
> intact  Blue leather  Dash has been ripped apart.
>
> And then I found a 114 220D.  Body is rusted to bits. hood is good.
> engine and trans are there.  One injector line is broken.  probably
> final cause of death.  I'd guess it is a running engine with one
> replacement line and maybe a new nozzle.  Burgundy interior (tex) in
> good shape.  firm seats.  Bottom of driver's seat is torn, but repairable
> IMHO
>
> I



-- 
LT Don
http://don.homelinux.net/~don/
Proudly marching to the beat of a different kettle of fish.

Make a small loan, Make a big difference - Kiva.org
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Re: [MBZ] 124 squirrely rear, yet again

2007-10-23 Thread Alex Chamberlain
On 10/23/07, LarryT <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Couldn't you just rotate those tires to possibly eliminate them as a
> potential problem?  You only replaced 2, right?
>

No, all four were replaced.  But I have two other sets of mounted
wheels/tires to play with, unfortunately neither quite like the old
ones.  (One set of Blizzaks on 15" stock rims, and one set of very
worn Continental ContiTouring Contacts on 16" CLK rims.)  I guess
that's the next step.

I'm suspecting, in this order:
1. subframe mounts - not sure if they were done with the rest of the suspension.
2. alignment - done a year or so ago, but I've driven a lot of bumpy
roads since then.
3. defective or improperly balanced tires - they're fairly new.
4. diff mounts - I know they're original, but could they affect handling at all?
5. shocks, control arms, and all the other wear parts in the
suspension replaced within the past couple of years; maybe something's
defective or just wore out early.

Anything else I've overlooked?

Alex Chamberlain
'87 300D Turbo that I KNOW is not supposed to bump-steer like this!

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[MBZ] U-pull haul

2007-10-23 Thread Loren Faeth
Went to the Des Moines up-pull today to see if I could find a 
tailgate for 00 Dog caravan, in silver.  Not only did I strike 
out  on the silver paint, but there were only 2 of the right body 
style dog vans there, and both had bashed in tailgates.  Tons of the 
old original body (box) style.

But I stumbled across a 450SEL 116.  145K engine appears to be 
intact  Blue leather  Dash has been ripped apart.

And then I found a 114 220D.  Body is rusted to bits. hood is good. 
engine and trans are there.  One injector line is broken.  probably 
final cause of death.  I'd guess it is a running engine with one 
replacement line and maybe a new nozzle.  Burgundy interior (tex) in 
good shape.  firm seats.  Bottom of driver's seat is torn, but repairable IMHO

I picked up a few small things to help justify (only in my mind) my 
admission and my time.

If anyone has a spare, I am in the market for a OE wheel for late 
124.  8 hole style.  Seems my 15 hole 126 wheels are near worthless, 
but for the 8 hole 124 wheels, the junkyards want the same price as a 
new look-alike wheel.




Loren Faeth
too many Benzes, flat wallet 


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Re: [MBZ] VW

2007-10-23 Thread E M
we still get shafted here in may ways.  I think a new GT3 is something like
$30-35,000 more than in the US, for the same car!   Many Canadians are now
buying cars in the US and bringing them up.  Most say the paperwork and
small changes needed make it more than worth while.

Ed
300E

On 23/10/2007, Mitch Haley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
> E M wrote:
> >
> > VW distributed porsche in Canada for years too, then they were taken
> over by
> > porsche in the US.  The day they did, I saw many parts prices drop my
> > half!!
>
> We used to laugh at certain parts prices here in USA. For instance, a set
> of ignition points for a Beetle was cheap, like $2, and the same part #
> for
> a 914 was more like $10.
> Mitch.
>
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Re: [MBZ] VW

2007-10-23 Thread E M
I think the 5 speed box in the Boxster is also VW, and the guts of the auto
box in the 928 is S Class.  Porsche also did the final assemble of the W124
E500 I think?  I'm sure there's lots of other stuff too.

Ed
300E

On 23/10/2007, Alex Chamberlain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On 10/23/07, Mitch Haley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > >
> > > <>
> > >
> > > Never. Always separate although they shared dealers for a long time.
> >
> > So VW/Porsche/Audi of the 70's was a USA distributor?
> >
>
> Yes.  And the Porsche models with Audi and VW components (914, 924)
> were the result of shared engineering, not shared management.
>
> Roger's answer, though technically correct, does smack of Amelia Bedelia.
>
> Alex Chamberlain
> '87 300D Turbo et al.
>
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Re: [MBZ] Plastic Key Tops...Rusty

2007-10-23 Thread Peter Frederick
Funny, I have some that have to be 35 years old and they are in good 
condition (keys for my 1972 Benzes, originals so far as I know).  How 
hard do you twist them when you start your car?

Peter


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Re: [MBZ] VW

2007-10-23 Thread Mitch Haley


E M wrote:
> 
> VW distributed porsche in Canada for years too, then they were taken over by
> porsche in the US.  The day they did, I saw many parts prices drop my
> half!! 

We used to laugh at certain parts prices here in USA. For instance, a set
of ignition points for a Beetle was cheap, like $2, and the same part # for
a 914 was more like $10. 
Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Plastic Key Tops...Rusty

2007-10-23 Thread E M
I still want to know what you guys are doing to break your keys??  ha ha
ha.  After reading the tread, I had to go and have a really good look at all
the keys, which are original.  I still can't figure out what you guys are
doing.  Mercedes should hire all you guys for quiality control.  lol.

Ed
300E, lots of miles, original keys. lol

On 23/10/2007, Ed Booher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On 10/22/07, Craig McCluskey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Here's a picture of a broken key ...
> >
> >
> > Craig
>
> Thank you, that's what I wanted to see. I understand what is being
> discussed now. So the *top* of the key top opens and the key drop
> inside, so the hole on the bottom is technically only big enough for
> the shank and not the head of the steel part, yes?
>
> So what keeps the top from popping out every time you slide the key
> into a partially locked door? I'm sure it snaps, but it seems the
> pressure could be enough to push the top right back out. Kind of like
> a ball point pen with a weak spring. I'm not even sure I'm making
> sense at this point.
>
> Ed
>
> --
> Knowledge is power... Power Corrupts. Study hard... Be Evil.
>
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Re: [MBZ] VW

2007-10-23 Thread Alex Chamberlain
On 10/23/07, Mitch Haley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> > <>
> >
> > Never. Always separate although they shared dealers for a long time.
>
> So VW/Porsche/Audi of the 70's was a USA distributor?
>

Yes.  And the Porsche models with Audi and VW components (914, 924)
were the result of shared engineering, not shared management.

Roger's answer, though technically correct, does smack of Amelia Bedelia.

Alex Chamberlain
'87 300D Turbo et al.

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Re: [MBZ] VW

2007-10-23 Thread E M
VW distributed porsche in Canada for years too, then they were taken over by
porsche in the US.  The day they did, I saw many parts prices drop my
half!!  VW and Porsche have had several joint projects over the years and
share parts at times too.  Did a few things with mercedes too. :-)

Ed
300E>>> turned 335,000 kms today.  New plugs and oil yesterday. :-)

On 23/10/2007, Mitch Haley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> > <>
> >
> > Never. Always separate although they shared dealers for a long time.
>
> So VW/Porsche/Audi of the 70's was a USA distributor?
>
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[MBZ] Greetings

2007-10-23 Thread Bruce Cargin
Greetings,

I'm Bruce Cargin from Hastings, MN I've been lurking for awhile and have
been a member of another Benz list for a couple of years now, I own an '85
300SD. This is my second Benz, the first was a '78 300D, RIP. My current
Benz is in pretty good condition with exception of a few interior issues,
cracked/missing wood, screws in the console that do not belong, no A/C etc.
but all in all it is a very good running car. 

 

I would be grateful for some information from the collective regarding an
upcoming project. 

 

I need to replace my lower ball joints, although they seem tight the rubber
boots are cracked so replacement is only a matter of time. Can this be done
in a garage with a reasonably competent mechanic with reasonable array of
tools?

 

Additionally- there is a rod that connects to the lower control arm that
extends rearward to a rubber insulated yoke, (my Benz Service Manual calls
these the bearing carrier, brake support and cross yoke) on the end of this
rod nestled into the rubber insulated yoke there is a ball & socket that
appears to be bad. My car clunks when driving into driveways etc. I think it
is this ball moving in this socket making the noise. So, can this be
replaced with the above mentioned mechanic/tools and if so should I get just
that piece or do I need to buy all the other rubber parts etc.

 

Thanks,

 

Bruce

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Re: [MBZ] 1980 300D climate control (w/Servo)

2007-10-23 Thread Scott Ritchey
Doug

I'm attaching scans of two articles from The Star on the ACC Type II servo.
I found these helpful understanding the servo and diagnosing it.  

I'm also attaching a schematic of the ACC amplifier.  I'm still working on
it so it may not be perfect.

The scan files are big and all attachments will probably be stripped from
the list copy.

Scott Ritchey
1970 300TD

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Douglas Sherman
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 18:06
To: mercedes@okiebenz.com; mercedes@okiebenz.com
Subject: [MBZ] 1980 300D climate control (w/Servo)

I wrote something along these lines though I do not know if it went out so
my appologies if this is a repeat.
 
I have been working on my climate control, changed the control panel and
then opened the 
Servo to find that the wires to the motor were off. Resoldered them and the
servo motor works though now when I put the motor say in the middle of its
swing and turn the ignition on the servo goes to what it thinks is park
comes to a halt though still does not stop. The motor stops but the voltage
to the motor is still at 8 Volts. It stops moving though because of a
mechanical stop limit. 
 
Now is there anyone who knows where to spin the valve in the bottom of the
servo where this valve engages the motor clockworks is just a cross. Please
help!
 
TIA Douglas
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Re: [MBZ] Plastic Key Tops...Rusty

2007-10-23 Thread ernest breakfield
sorry, all, but apparently the pic of Melissas  key that i had attached 
to my previous post wasn't approved for distribution; i don't know why.

i'll try it again here a lightly different way, and see if maybe 
it's 'blessed' this time,...


cheers!
e


ernest breakfield wrote:
> that was Melissa that did the nice key.
>
> pic attached
>
>
>
> cheers!
> e
>
> Robert Rentfro wrote:
>   
>> I remember she posted a pic of her 123 wagon
>> Buried under some snow as I recall. She had an "M" name.
>>
>> Bob R. 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> On Behalf Of Alex Chamberlain
>> Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 11:03 AM
>> To: Mercedes Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Plastic Key Tops...Rusty
>>
>> On 10/22/07, Rich Thomas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>   
>> 
>>> Yeah it was a woman from Cape Cod, I think she took off to CR or
>>> somewhere.
>>> 
>>>   
>> Yeah, that was her.  I never understood why she left the list.  If I
>> were going to expatriate myself off to some such place, one of the
>> main draws would be the ready supply of cheap G-wagens.
>>
>> Alex Chamberlain
>> '87 300D Turbo et al.
>>
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>>
>>   
>> 
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Re: [MBZ] 52s in Nam

2007-10-23 Thread Bill
Amen.
BillR

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Wonko the Sane
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 11:53 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] 52s in Nam

I really don't want to wade into this, but I couldn't disagree with you
more, Craig. We are not giving Iraq away to anyone except to the Iraqi
citizens. It is their country, not ours.

I'm not willing to kill another American teenager just to save face in a war
that was not justified in the first place. Kill terrorists? Sure, and I will
help load the weapons. I did my two decades in uniform and am now too old to
be of much use on the battlefield, unless they want me to hack into some
computer network. I will put my patriotism up against anyone else's ... but
I also tend to apply logic to situations and don't necessarily jump into
lock-step with someone just because he puts a flag pin onto his lapel.

Invade Iraq, a place where terrorists were shot on sight by the dictator, in
the name of fighting terrorists? Our bad and we are still paying dearly for
one man's revenge war.

Nothing angers me more than hearing someone claim that we went into Iraq to
fight terrorism. Totally false logic -- our invading Iraq to look for
terrorists is like invading a Jewish synagogue looking for Muslims.

So ... before we decided to take over Iraq, Iraq was not a terrorist threat.
Maybe it is now, but (1) that is our own fault and (2) it is not something
we can fix by staying there indefinitely. Our continued presence only makes
things worse and grow the terrorist's enrollment records.

D.


We are not going to win Iraq, because every day we are there we do nothing
but breed more terrorists who hate us because we are there.

On 10/22/07, Craig McCluskey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> Yes, the "defeat at any price" crowd are trying to give away Iraq just
> like they gave away Viet Nam. In spite of the fact that we are starting to
> win Iraq. It doesn't do any good to the image of the US around the world
> and emboldens the bad guys to raise more ruckus because they know we won't
> see things through. Makes the world an even more dangerous place to live
> in.
>

-- 
LT Don
http://don.homelinux.net/~don/
Proudly marching to the beat of a different kettle of fish.

Make a small loan, Make a big difference - Kiva.org
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Re: [MBZ] Combination switch . . . all other functions appear

2007-10-23 Thread Loren Faeth
I do that by turning the fuses in the holder.  in 99% of the time, that works.

At 02:45 PM 10/23/2007, you wrote:
>You might also try cleaning the contacts where the fuses insert.
>
>Randy
>
>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Glenn Brown
>Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 2:18 PM
>To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
>Subject: [MBZ] Combination switch . . . all other functions appear
>
>
>I checked all fuses and there are none open, and I checked all lights and
>there are none out so I guess I'll need to dig into the combination switch
>when I get enthusiatic to see if a cleaning will do anything.  Thanx.
>
>G. M. Brown
>Brevard, NC
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Loren Faeth 


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Re: [MBZ] Cheap Rod Bender

2007-10-23 Thread Kaleb C. Striplin
Right.

Mitch Haley wrote:
> 
> "Kaleb C. Striplin" wrote:
>> yes, I have emailed the seller a while back about it, and just now also,
>> he said it was not his ad
> 
> To remove all doubt, the IL car has the AZ car's VIN#.
> 
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-- 
Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK
  94 E420, 94 E320, 92 300SD, 92 300D, 92 250D Turbo, 92 300E 4Matic,
  91 300D, 90 420SEL, 89 560SEL, 89 260E, 87 300SDL, 85 380SE 5.0 Euro,
  81 240D, 81 380SLC, 80 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, 72 250C, 69 250
http://www.okiebenz.com

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Re: [MBZ] Cheap Rod Bender

2007-10-23 Thread Mitch Haley


"Kaleb C. Striplin" wrote:
> 
> yes, I have emailed the seller a while back about it, and just now also,
> he said it was not his ad

To remove all doubt, the IL car has the AZ car's VIN#.

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Re: [MBZ] VW

2007-10-23 Thread Mitch Haley


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> <>
> 
> Never. Always separate although they shared dealers for a long time.

So VW/Porsche/Audi of the 70's was a USA distributor?

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Re: [MBZ] O.T Catheyesque (Call Mr. Webster)

2007-10-23 Thread Robert Rentfro
Gassers are very frustrating...at least the two I had were
('68 280SE, '86 190E)

Bob R.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Loren Faeth
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 4:33 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] O.T Catheyesque (Call Mr. Webster)

I just picked up a spare coil from a 450 SEL, I think it might work 
on the 380SL.it was under $4.  A LOT cheaper than having to buy a new 
one.  I think every gasser I have touched in the past 10 years has 
needed at least one new coil.  And they are all oddball.

More on my mini-haul of nothing I need soon.

Loren
just back from the u-pull


At 10:55 AM 10/23/2007, you wrote:
> > Hey Jim...isn't nice to have an entire "vibe" named for you
> > (Cathey-esque)?
> > So I guess anything ingenious, eccentric...anything that displays a
> > MacGyver-like usefulness in Catheyesque. Nice.
>
>With a strong undercurrent of cheap.  Must come from my
>Depression-era smallholder grandparentage.  Make do or
>do without.
>
>OTOH, I just dropped $1300 on car parts this morning,
>so once in awhile I fall off the wagon.  About $600
>on this 380SL.  ($200 of that was for ignition consumables.
>I hate gassers.  Another $200 for sunvisors, etc.)
>
>-- Jim
>
>
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Loren Faeth 


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Re: [MBZ] SD CL 300SD

2007-10-23 Thread Robert Rentfro
Can't see it...sez it's been flagged for removal.

Bob R. 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Sunil Hari
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 4:32 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: [MBZ] SD CL 300SD

http://sandiego.craigslist.org/car/457709281.html

Look familiar to anyone?

-- 
Sunil Hari
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
513-205-7474
614-441-8164
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Re: [MBZ] Cheap Rod Bender

2007-10-23 Thread Kaleb C. Striplin
yes, I have emailed the seller a while back about it, and just now also, 
he said it was not his ad

Allan Streib wrote:
> "Kaleb C. Striplin, work" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
>> Well, maybe this will help you understand
>>
>>
>> http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_id=226660087&dealer_id=60673087&car_year=1992&model=300SD&num_records=&make2=&start_year=1992&keywordsfyc=&keywordsrep=&engine=&certified=&body_code=0&fuel=&awsp=false&search_type=both&distance=0&marketZipError=false&search_lang=en&make=MB&color=&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&min_price=&drive=&default_sort=priceDESC&max_mileage=&style_flag=1&sort_type=priceDESC&address=74017&advanced=&end_year=1993&doors=&transmission=&max_price=&cardist=921
> 
> OK, it's been a long day
> 
> You're saying the person on CL lifted the photos from this AutoTrader
> ad?
> 
> Allan

-- 
Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK
  94 E420, 94 E320, 92 300SD, 92 300D, 92 250D Turbo, 92 300E 4Matic,
  91 300D, 90 420SEL, 89 560SEL, 89 260E, 87 300SDL, 85 380SE 5.0 Euro,
  81 240D, 81 380SLC, 80 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, 72 250C, 69 250
http://www.okiebenz.com

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Re: [MBZ] O.T Catheyesque (Call Mr. Webster)

2007-10-23 Thread Loren Faeth
I just picked up a spare coil from a 450 SEL, I think it might work 
on the 380SL.it was under $4.  A LOT cheaper than having to buy a new 
one.  I think every gasser I have touched in the past 10 years has 
needed at least one new coil.  And they are all oddball.

More on my mini-haul of nothing I need soon.

Loren
just back from the u-pull


At 10:55 AM 10/23/2007, you wrote:
> > Hey Jim...isn't nice to have an entire "vibe" named for you
> > (Cathey-esque)?
> > So I guess anything ingenious, eccentric...anything that displays a
> > MacGyver-like usefulness in Catheyesque. Nice.
>
>With a strong undercurrent of cheap.  Must come from my
>Depression-era smallholder grandparentage.  Make do or
>do without.
>
>OTOH, I just dropped $1300 on car parts this morning,
>so once in awhile I fall off the wagon.  About $600
>on this 380SL.  ($200 of that was for ignition consumables.
>I hate gassers.  Another $200 for sunvisors, etc.)
>
>-- Jim
>
>
>___
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Loren Faeth 


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Re: [MBZ] O.T Catheyesque (Call Mr. Webster)

2007-10-23 Thread Loren Faeth
Not exactly

I coined the term for making the thing work without buying a (new or 
used) replacement part.  As in covering the plug wires with plastic 
and silicone seal, or taking apart a door stop , cleaning it and 
reloading all the newly lubed springs and balls without loosing any or injury.

At 10:19 AM 10/23/2007, you wrote:
>Hey Jim...isn't nice to have an entire "vibe" named for you (Cathey-esque)?
>So I guess anything ingenious, eccentric...anything that displays a
>MacGyver-like usefulness in Catheyesque. Nice.
>
>Bob R.
>Who sang three-part harmony to show tunes with two gay servers last night at
>TGI Fridays...shoulda stopped after the sixth Bass
>
>
>
>
>
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Loren Faeth 


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Re: [MBZ] 124 squirrely rear, yet again

2007-10-23 Thread LarryT
Couldn't you just rotate those tires to possibly eliminate them as a 
potential problem?  You only replaced 2, right?

Larry T (67 MGB, 74 911, 78 240D, 91 300D)
www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts
Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil
PORSCHE POSTERS!  youroil.net
Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs
.

- Original Message - 
From: "Alex Chamberlain" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 3:59 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] 124 squirrely rear, yet again


> On 10/23/07, Jim Cathey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > In the meantime I have a 240D automatic with 322K mi and collapsed
>> > seats as a loaner.  Woo hoo!  ("She may not look like much, but it's
>> > got it where it counts.")
>>
>> Ours was a beautiful car when we sold it, but oh my was
>> it slow.  It's _amazing_ what a difference a stickshift
>> makes when there's just not quite enough horsepower.
>> Other than that, a great ride.
>
> Yeah.  I had to go across town on the freeway to run an errand at
> lunch.  Merging uphill was no fun, but once I was there the car was
> easy to drive and steady as a rock.
>
> Of note, the rear end of this elderly 240D feels a lot more
> well-planted than my 124 at 60+ mph.  I know the suspensions are
> different, but that's still evidence that there's something wrong with
> the latter car.
>
> Alex Chamberlain
> '87 300D Turbo
>
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>
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> 10/22/2007 7:57 PM
> 


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[MBZ] SD CL 300SD

2007-10-23 Thread Sunil Hari
http://sandiego.craigslist.org/car/457709281.html

Look familiar to anyone?

-- 
Sunil Hari
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
513-205-7474
614-441-8164
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Re: [MBZ] climate control

2007-10-23 Thread Peter Frederick
So far I have found a bad evaporator temp sensor (reads 1113 ohm 
instead of 8.85 kOhm) and a no connection condition for the coolant 
temp sensor.  That means who knows what the CC thinks about compressor, 
except that with the coolant temp sensor open, the compressor won't run 
at all, and the fan stays on lowest speed because infinite resistance 
is equal to 20 below zero C or so

Peter


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Re: [MBZ] Mileage surprise

2007-10-23 Thread Curt Raymond

Absolutely dull...
No place to put my GPS. In my car and pickup it wedges between the dash and the 
pillar, no gap on this car. Kept rolling off the dash...

Still it drove pretty good but why are all steering wheels so small now? My 
parent's jeeps are the same way.

-Curt

Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 17:44:44 -0400
From: Peter T. Arnold <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Mileage surprise
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

I got same mpg on one in Branson, drove it 1500 miles in a week.  Nice
car, plenty quick, lotsa room.

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Re: [MBZ] 124 squirrely rear, yet again

2007-10-23 Thread Peter Frederick
Bad rear shocks will allow the wheel to "hop" and the tire to lift off 
the road, too!

Peter


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Re: [MBZ] Cheap Rod Bender

2007-10-23 Thread Allan Streib
"Kaleb C. Striplin, work" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Well, maybe this will help you understand
>
>
> http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_id=226660087&dealer_id=60673087&car_year=1992&model=300SD&num_records=&make2=&start_year=1992&keywordsfyc=&keywordsrep=&engine=&certified=&body_code=0&fuel=&awsp=false&search_type=both&distance=0&marketZipError=false&search_lang=en&make=MB&color=&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&min_price=&drive=&default_sort=priceDESC&max_mileage=&style_flag=1&sort_type=priceDESC&address=74017&advanced=&end_year=1993&doors=&transmission=&max_price=&cardist=921

OK, it's been a long day

You're saying the person on CL lifted the photos from this AutoTrader
ad?

Allan
-- 
1983 300D
1966 230

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Re: [MBZ] VW

2007-10-23 Thread RELNGSON
<>

Never. Always separate although they shared dealers for a long time.

RLE


**
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Re: [MBZ] The Good Stuff

2007-10-23 Thread Harry Watkins
Zip ties and JB Weld, near the top.

Harry


On 10/23/07, Alex Chamberlain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On 10/23/07, Jim Cathey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Other things, like duct tape, spray 77 glue, RTV, etc, have
> > their places, and I use them, but haven't earned the seal of
> > permanence like using the materials above.
>
> How do you feel about pop rivets?
>
> Alex Chamberlain
> '87 300D Turbo et al.
>
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Re: [MBZ] 124 squirrely rear, yet again

2007-10-23 Thread archer
> On 10/23/07, archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Did you get new tires about the time you first noticed the steering 
>> problem?
>> If so, what kind?
>
> Yeah, I did.  Dunlop SP Sport A2 Plus.  I have a hard time believing
> that they're the problem.  However, when you have eliminated the
> impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.
> We shall see.
> Alex Chamberlain
> '87 300D Turbo et al.
-
We were using Michelin X-1 tires which were great, but the dealer was out of 
them so we got Michelin (BH-4?) or something like that.  The dealer said 
these tires didn't drive like any tires we had had before; that they steered 
and cornered more accurately.  I didn't like them at all.  IMO it made the 
car wander like it didn't have enough toe-in.  My wife liked them though; 
probably because she liked to do things very precisely and intensely. 
That's the way you had to drive with those tires.  You had to "steer" the 
car every inch of the way.

I looked up your tires on the 'net and it seems they are "also" supposed to 
steer and corner more accurately:

"The SP Sport A2 Plus is the enhanced descendant of Dunlop's popular D60 A2 
High ... with minimal siping to enhance steering response and cornering 
stability."

http://www.tirerack.com/tire-12/Dunlop/SP+Sport+A2+Plus.shtml

Might be a connection here.  You might get your tire shop to put a used set 
(ideally your old tires) back on to see if that fixes the problem.
Good luck,
Gerry 


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Re: [MBZ] Mileage surprise

2007-10-23 Thread Peter T . Arnold
I got same mpg on one in Branson, drove it 1500 miles in a week.  Nice
car, plenty quick, lotsa room.

PeteOn Tue, 23 Oct 2007 14:26:05 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

>Just figured the mileage on the rental Malibu from my trip last week ~29mpg, a 
>bit over actually. That surprises me, I surely wasn't working at getting good 
>mileage...
>Car had 35,000 miles which is high for a rental. EPA estimates range around 30 
>for highway. I *think* it had a v6 but I'm not sure.
>
>-Curt
>
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--

Regards,

Peter T. Arnold

2007 HHR, 2.4L/Auto, LT2, 17Kmi, No problems!
1987 300SDL  280KMI  Inherited by Grandson
1995 F-250 PowerChoke  199Kmi
1954 Metropolitan Convertible, Hanger Queen
Wife has a Cruizer, 87 Kmi, as reliable as an Ice Box, the car that is!

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[MBZ] Mileage surprise

2007-10-23 Thread Curt Raymond
Just figured the mileage on the rental Malibu from my trip last week ~29mpg, a 
bit over actually. That surprises me, I surely wasn't working at getting good 
mileage...
Car had 35,000 miles which is high for a rental. EPA estimates range around 30 
for highway. I *think* it had a v6 but I'm not sure.

-Curt

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Re: [MBZ] Cheap Rod Bender

2007-10-23 Thread Kaleb C. Striplin, work
Well, maybe this will help you understand

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_id=226660087&dealer_id=60673087&car_year=1992&model=300SD&num_records=&make2=&start_year=1992&keywordsfyc=&keywordsrep=&engine=&certified=&body_code=0&fuel=&awsp=false&search_type=both&distance=0&marketZipError=false&search_lang=en&make=MB&color=&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&min_price=&drive=&default_sort=priceDESC&max_mileage=&style_flag=1&sort_type=priceDESC&address=74017&advanced=&end_year=1993&doors=&transmission=&max_price=&cardist=921



---
Kaleb C. Striplin
Cox Auto Trader
730 FSBO Supervisor

- Original Message - 
From: "Allan Streib" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 4:18 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Cheap Rod Bender


> "Kaleb C. Striplin, work" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
>> Its a fraud ad, a scam.
>
> And how do you know this?  The lack of a phone number?  The throwaway 
> yahoo
> email address?
>
> Allan
> -- 
> 1983 300D
> 1966 230
>
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Re: [MBZ] Cheap Rod Bender

2007-10-23 Thread Allan Streib
"Kaleb C. Striplin, work" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Its a fraud ad, a scam.

And how do you know this?  The lack of a phone number?  The throwaway yahoo
email address?

Allan
-- 
1983 300D
1966 230

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Re: [MBZ] Cheap Rod Bender

2007-10-23 Thread Kaleb C. Striplin, work
Its a fraud ad, a scam.

---
Kaleb C. Striplin
Cox Auto Trader
730 FSBO Supervisor

- Original Message - 
From: "Rick Knoble" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 3:53 PM
Subject: [MBZ] Cheap Rod Bender


> http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/car/457332149.html
> 
> Rick Knoble 
> '85 300 CD
> '87 190 DT
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Cheap Rod Bender

2007-10-23 Thread Alex Chamberlain
On 10/23/07, Rick Knoble <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/car/457332149.html
>

"The car was resently inspected for another buyer by his choice of
mechanic. The report found found three problems but still stated 'this
is a good car'. "

What, three bent rods?

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[MBZ] Cheap Rod Bender

2007-10-23 Thread Rick Knoble
http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/car/457332149.html

Rick Knoble 
'85 300 CD
'87 190 DT

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Re: [MBZ] OM617 non-turbo: big end bearing failure?

2007-10-23 Thread David Bruckmann
Bad engine mounts are on my "faint hope" list, as this would be one of the few 
other sources of load-dependent noise from the front end. There's no particular 
noise when going from neutral to drive or reverse, but that's of course at a 
relatively low engine speed and load.

I'll try to take a look tonight...

Hendrik wrote:
>
>Might be worth your while to check the engine mounts, although they 
>usually tend to take a long time to go bad.
>

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Re: [MBZ] Restored 600 on Portland CL

2007-10-23 Thread Ed Booher
On 10/23/07, Alex Chamberlain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Looks beautiful and I'm sure it drives like a dream, but I can think
> of a lot of other uses for $68,000...
>
> http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/car/457047084.html
>
> Alex Chamberlain
> '87 300D Turbo et al.

and $68,000 a year for upkeep, right?  :) Beautiful car. Too bad no
Mortal Human can afford one.

Ed

-- 
Knowledge is power... Power Corrupts. Study hard... Be Evil.

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[MBZ] Restored 600 on Portland CL

2007-10-23 Thread Alex Chamberlain
Looks beautiful and I'm sure it drives like a dream, but I can think
of a lot of other uses for $68,000...

http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/car/457047084.html

Alex Chamberlain
'87 300D Turbo et al.

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Re: [MBZ] 124 squirrely rear, yet again

2007-10-23 Thread Alex Chamberlain
On 10/23/07, Jim Cathey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > In the meantime I have a 240D automatic with 322K mi and collapsed
> > seats as a loaner.  Woo hoo!  ("She may not look like much, but it's
> > got it where it counts.")
>
> Ours was a beautiful car when we sold it, but oh my was
> it slow.  It's _amazing_ what a difference a stickshift
> makes when there's just not quite enough horsepower.
> Other than that, a great ride.

Yeah.  I had to go across town on the freeway to run an errand at
lunch.  Merging uphill was no fun, but once I was there the car was
easy to drive and steady as a rock.

Of note, the rear end of this elderly 240D feels a lot more
well-planted than my 124 at 60+ mph.  I know the suspensions are
different, but that's still evidence that there's something wrong with
the latter car.

Alex Chamberlain
'87 300D Turbo

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Re: [MBZ] 124 squirrely rear, yet again

2007-10-23 Thread Alex Chamberlain
On 10/23/07, archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Did you get new tires about the time you first noticed the steering problem?
> If so, what kind?

Yeah, I did.  Dunlop SP Sport A2 Plus.  I have a hard time believing
that they're the problem.  However, when you have eliminated the
impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.
We shall see.

Alex Chamberlain
'87 300D Turbo et al.

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Re: [MBZ] Combination switch . . . all other functions appear

2007-10-23 Thread R A Bennell
You might also try cleaning the contacts where the fuses insert.

Randy

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Glenn Brown
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 2:18 PM
To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
Subject: [MBZ] Combination switch . . . all other functions appear


I checked all fuses and there are none open, and I checked all lights and
there are none out so I guess I'll need to dig into the combination switch
when I get enthusiatic to see if a cleaning will do anything.  Thanx.

G. M. Brown
Brevard, NC
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Re: [MBZ] Taking over the world is next

2007-10-23 Thread John Robbins
Mitch Haley wrote:
> Didn't VW used to own Porsche?

Thats what I thought...  guess they want to show them how things are 
supposed to be done?


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[MBZ] Plastic key tops

2007-10-23 Thread wilton strickland
Like I said, I rescued a key torn from its plastic top like the one in
Craig's photo by wrapping two plastic tie wraps TIGHTLY around the top of
the key, one on each side of the key shank and around each of the key
"shoulders" inside the plastic top.  The secured tie wrap ends tuck very
nicely, neatly and unobtrusively inside the large key ring hole.  'Makes a
very tight package.  I used one repaired like that several yrs.

Wilton


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[MBZ] Combination switch . . . all other functions appear

2007-10-23 Thread Glenn Brown
I checked all fuses and there are none open, and I checked all lights and
there are none out so I guess I'll need to dig into the combination switch
when I get enthusiatic to see if a cleaning will do anything.  Thanx.

G. M. Brown
Brevard, NC
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Re: [MBZ] Taking over the world is next

2007-10-23 Thread Mitch Haley
Didn't VW used to own Porsche?

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[MBZ] Taking over the world is next

2007-10-23 Thread RELNGSON
 By MATT MOORE and AOIFE WHITE, AP Business Writers
Tue Oct 23, 5:38 AM ET

FRANKFURT, Germany - A European court on Tuesday ruled that a German law 
shielding car maker Volkswagen AG from hostile takeovers is illegal, clearing 
the 
way for Porsche AG to increase its influence — and possibly take control — at 
Europe's biggest car maker.

The decision by the European Court of Justice also is expected to have wider 
ramifications across Europe, where many governments have tried to protect 
companies they see as vital to their economies from takeovers, particularly 
foreign ones.
German politicians and labor unions had argued that the law was needed to 
protect local jobs but the court, the EU's highest, said it was illegal. It 
ruled 
that the law limited "the free movement of capital."
The court also ruled that it discourages foreign investors from taking a 
stake in Volkswagen because the German federal government and the region of 
Lower 
Saxony — a major shareholder — are able "to exercise considerable influence" 
over the company.
"This situation is liable to deter direct investors from other member 
states," a court press statement said.
The law caps a shareholder's voting rights at 20 percent, whatever the size 
of its holding.
In its ruling, the court also rejected the right of both the German federal 
government and the region of Lower Saxony, which holds 20.36 percent of 
Volkswagen, to appoint two members of the board as long as they are 
shareholders of 
the company.
For Porsche, which has built-up a 31-percent stake in the company over recent 
years in anticipation that the VW law would be struck down, the ruling gives 
it carte blanche to take a wider stake.
Porsche AG Chief Executive Wendelin Wiedeking said his company was "naturally 
very interested in being able to fully exert our voting rights" in 
Volkswagen. However, he did not refer to the possibility of a takeover — which 
many 
analysts expect.
Between them, Porsche and Lower Saxony already hold more than 50 percent in 
Volkswagen — meaning the door is closed for any would-be foreign suitors.
The court said Germany did not explain why it needed to protect workers by 
keeping "a strengthened and irremovable" stake in Volkswagen. It also rejected 
German government arguments that its special position protected minority 
shareholders.
Lower Saxony's conservative governor, Christian Wulff, said the state 
government accepted the decision.
He said that Lower Saxony would stand by its stake in Volkswagen and that its 
aim was "for VW to be a successful company with high sales and satisfied 
employees with secure jobs, particularly at sites in Lower Saxony."
"The state government wants to ensure this along with the other major 
shareholder, Porsche," Wulff said.
The ruling is a triumph for the European Commission, which has fought several 
battles against European governments and their "golden shares" in critical 
companies.
European Union regulators take their cue from rights enshrined in the EU's 
founding treaty that proclaim basic economic freedoms such as the right to do 
business anywhere in the 27-nation bloc.
That right is blocked if governments interfere with companies, the EU 
executive said.
It took Germany to court in 2005, and has since lined up or threatened cases 
against Spain over allegations it is protecting energy companies like Endesa 
SA, Italy for blocking a takeover attempt of highways company Autostrade SpA, 
and against Poland for hindering Italy's UniCredit SpA from consolidating its 
grip over a local bank.
Volkswagen — German for "people's car" — is one Germany's best-known 
companies, renowned for providing well-paid blue-collar jobs. From the ashes of 
World 
War II, it has become Europe's largest automaker, with brands from the more 
affordable Seat and Skoda to the upscale Audi and the stratospherically priced 
speedsters hand-built by Lamborghini.




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Re: [MBZ] climate control

2007-10-23 Thread Fred Johnson
Douglas,

By this time you may have already found your issue but
here's my $.02.  First do you get heat at freeway
speeds?  What's the ambient temp. where you live?  I
ask because of my past experience.

When I bought my first SD it had a torn monovalve
diaphram AND the foam connecting tube from HVAC fan to
the cabin temp. sensor in the middle of the dash was
mostly non-existant.  

This allowed me to get heat only when the car was
stopped or at low speed.  When I did get heat it was
at full blast.  As the car sped up the heat would fade
but fan speed was still maxed.

I fixed the monovalve insert as this is a common
malady.  I then got full heat almost all the time,
this was in Oct./Nov.  

Finally pulled the glove box and center vents to get
to the gooey foam tube. Replaced it with foam pipe
insulation and that fixed the problem.  Takes some
manoeuvering through smallish openings and is messy
though.

Monovalve was definitely the easier job that I would
do first.  I would recommend gloves and also cover
anything in old towels that you do not want to get
black goo on if you attack the insulation tube that
connects the cabin temp. sensor to the fan motor.

Fred Johnson
1977 240D
1983 300SD
1991 A/R 164L
1996 Civic

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Re: [MBZ] 124 squirrely rear, yet again

2007-10-23 Thread archer
Did you get new tires about the time you first noticed the steering problem? 
If so, what kind?  Had a similar problem several years ago and wanted to 
take the tires back but wife refused.  (They were on her car.)  The steering 
got worse as the tires wore down.
Gerry
-

- Original Message - 
From: "Alex Chamberlain" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 11:50 AM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] 124 squirrely rear, yet again


> On 10/18/07, Alex Chamberlain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Well, my indy didn't get a chance to drive the car, but said that
>> there was nothing loose or broken at first glance in the rear end.
>> I'll take it back next week and leave it with him with very specific
>> instructions as to what conditions consistently provoke the symptoms.
>
> Took the car to the indy back today, for those of you on the edge of
> your seat waiting for the next installment.
>
> I don't have high hopes.  Apparently they'd been discussing my case.
> One mechanic thought it was the result of too-high tire pressures. (32
> psi front and 38 rear is what I've always run in 124s, maybe 40 in the
> back if I'm on a long highway trip and have a lot of stuff in the
> trunk.)  Another blamed the 500E sway bars I have.  (They were on long
> before I noticed the bump steer.)
>
> I brought up the suggestions of listers---bad subframe mounts and/or a
> loose halfshaft---which were met with skepticism.
>
> I'm leaving the car overnight so that they have plenty of time to look
> at it and figure it out---hopefully before the winter.  (The car is a
> handful right now on wet bumpy roads, of which there are many between
> my house and office.)
>
> In the meantime I have a 240D automatic with 322K mi and collapsed
> seats as a loaner.  Woo hoo!  ("She may not look like much, but it's
> got it where it counts.")
>
> Alex Chamberlain
> '87 300D Turbo et al.
>
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>
>
> -- 
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> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.6/1086 - Release Date: 
> 10/22/2007 7:57 PM
>
> 


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Re: [MBZ] O.T Catheyesque (Call Mr. Webster)

2007-10-23 Thread Kevin Kraly
I just dropped $1300 on car parts this morning,
so once in awhile I fall off the wagon.

Sometimes, you've just gotta do it!  I know it's fun to fabricate/modify 
stuff to work (I've done it with RC car parts before with an old, 
discontinued model and got it back on the road).  It's a good feeling!

Kevin in Hillsboro, OR
1983 300SD 267Kmi, Ursula 


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Re: [MBZ] Plastic Key Tops...Rusty

2007-10-23 Thread OK Don
There is a center insert that follows the key - it snaps into place
and keeps the key in it's rightfull place, until the plastic breaks.


>
> So what keeps the top from popping out every time you slide the key
> into a partially locked door? I'm sure it snaps, but it seems the
> pressure could be enough to push the top right back out. Kind of like
> a ball point pen with a weak spring. I'm not even sure I'm making
> sense at this point.
>
> Ed


-- 
OK Don, KD5NRO
Norman, OK
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics."
-Benjamin Disraeli
'90 300D, '87 300SDL, '81 240D, '78 450SLC, '97 Ply Grand Voyager

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Re: [MBZ] Plastic Key Tops...Rusty

2007-10-23 Thread Ed Booher
On 10/22/07, Craig McCluskey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Here's a picture of a broken key ...
>
>
> Craig

Thank you, that's what I wanted to see. I understand what is being
discussed now. So the *top* of the key top opens and the key drop
inside, so the hole on the bottom is technically only big enough for
the shank and not the head of the steel part, yes?

So what keeps the top from popping out every time you slide the key
into a partially locked door? I'm sure it snaps, but it seems the
pressure could be enough to push the top right back out. Kind of like
a ball point pen with a weak spring. I'm not even sure I'm making
sense at this point.

Ed

-- 
Knowledge is power... Power Corrupts. Study hard... Be Evil.

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Re: [MBZ] The Good Stuff

2007-10-23 Thread Alex Chamberlain
On 10/23/07, Jim Cathey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Other things, like duct tape, spray 77 glue, RTV, etc, have
> their places, and I use them, but haven't earned the seal of
> permanence like using the materials above.

How do you feel about pop rivets?

Alex Chamberlain
'87 300D Turbo et al.

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[MBZ] The Good Stuff

2007-10-23 Thread Jim Cathey
OK, so that reminds me.  My list of Good Stuff for repairs:

1) Steel  (A welder, that is.)
2) Brass  (Brazing with the torch.)
3) Shoe Goo  (Is there anything it can't do?)
4) 3M Weatherstrip adhesive  (Flexible, tenacious)
5) Tear Mender  (Emulsified rubber fabric cement.)

Other things, like duct tape, spray 77 glue, RTV, etc, have
their places, and I use them, but haven't earned the seal of
permanence like using the materials above.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] Plastic key tops

2007-10-23 Thread Jim Cathey
> I used Shoe Goo on mine.  So far so good.

Yeah, Baby!  (Austin Powers.)

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] 124 squirrely rear, yet again

2007-10-23 Thread Jim Cathey
> In the meantime I have a 240D automatic with 322K mi and collapsed
> seats as a loaner.  Woo hoo!  ("She may not look like much, but it's
> got it where it counts.")

Ours was a beautiful car when we sold it, but oh my was
it slow.  It's _amazing_ what a difference a stickshift
makes when there's just not quite enough horsepower.
Other than that, a great ride.

You could stuff some foam under the seat to make it a
little better.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] Plastic key tops

2007-10-23 Thread Scott Ritchey
I used Shoe Goo on mine.  So far so good.

Scott Ritchey
1979 300TD


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Re: [MBZ] 52s in Nam

2007-10-23 Thread Scott Ritchey
The main difference here is that Viet Nam never really mattered.  The Middle
East does.

Scott Ritchey
1982 300SD 250K 
1979 300TD 350K

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Craig McCluskey
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 23:17
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] 52s in Nam

On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 10:52:18 -0400 "wilton strickland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> Didn't TRY to win it 'til 18 Dec 72, the beginning of Linebacker II. 
> When I departed Hanoi the last time the night of 29 Dec, though, it had
> finally been fought with "no holds barred" and won - the North
> Vietnamese were begging to "sign."  Everybody quickly signed, we came on
> home, and 2 yrs. later, Congress gave it all away, anyway.  What a
> tragic waste of 58k brave young Americans and hundreds of thousands of
> Vietnamese!!!

Yes, the "defeat at any price" crowd are trying to give away Iraq just
like they gave away Viet Nam. In spite of the fact that we are starting to
win Iraq. It doesn't do any good to the image of the US around the world
and emboldens the bad guys to raise more ruckus because they know we won't
see things through. Makes the world an even more dangerous place to live
in.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] O.T Catheyesque (Call Mr. Webster)

2007-10-23 Thread Jim Cathey
> Hey Jim...isn't nice to have an entire "vibe" named for you 
> (Cathey-esque)?
> So I guess anything ingenious, eccentric...anything that displays a
> MacGyver-like usefulness in Catheyesque. Nice.

With a strong undercurrent of cheap.  Must come from my
Depression-era smallholder grandparentage.  Make do or
do without.

OTOH, I just dropped $1300 on car parts this morning,
so once in awhile I fall off the wagon.  About $600
on this 380SL.  ($200 of that was for ignition consumables.
I hate gassers.  Another $200 for sunvisors, etc.)

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] 124 squirrely rear, yet again

2007-10-23 Thread Alex Chamberlain
On 10/18/07, Alex Chamberlain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Well, my indy didn't get a chance to drive the car, but said that
> there was nothing loose or broken at first glance in the rear end.
> I'll take it back next week and leave it with him with very specific
> instructions as to what conditions consistently provoke the symptoms.

Took the car to the indy back today, for those of you on the edge of
your seat waiting for the next installment.

I don't have high hopes.  Apparently they'd been discussing my case.
One mechanic thought it was the result of too-high tire pressures. (32
psi front and 38 rear is what I've always run in 124s, maybe 40 in the
back if I'm on a long highway trip and have a lot of stuff in the
trunk.)  Another blamed the 500E sway bars I have.  (They were on long
before I noticed the bump steer.)

I brought up the suggestions of listers---bad subframe mounts and/or a
loose halfshaft---which were met with skepticism.

I'm leaving the car overnight so that they have plenty of time to look
at it and figure it out---hopefully before the winter.  (The car is a
handful right now on wet bumpy roads, of which there are many between
my house and office.)

In the meantime I have a 240D automatic with 322K mi and collapsed
seats as a loaner.  Woo hoo!  ("She may not look like much, but it's
got it where it counts.")

Alex Chamberlain
'87 300D Turbo et al.

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