Re: [MBZ] Bel Air vs Malibu and crumple zones

[LarryT]

Peter wrote <>

It's been a while since making this observation, but at one time I would 
walk junk yards looking at cars and I noticed the MB's all seemed to have 
been involved in accidents that would likely not be fatal.  While other cars 
were obviously fatal, MB's seem to protect occupants much better.  This 
wasn't scientific at all, and I suspect others may have observed the same. 
There's exceptions to the rule of course, a few years ago a car came over 
the Jersey Barrier and landed on top of a MB killing those inside - but I 
guess designing a roof structure for such a bizzare accident wouldn't make 
sense.


Larryt
91 300D

OilAnalysis Time?
Looking for Weber Parts or Porsche Posters?
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--
From: "Peter Frederick" 
Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 10:58 PM
To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Bel Air vs Malibu and crumple zones

The flimsy construction of late 1950's and early 1960 american made  cars 
is terrifying.  I think the high speed expensive Italian ones  were worse, 
but the lack of a substantial frame and the single sheet  metal body 
simply smashed flat in accidents.  I can still close my  eyes and see the 
film of a 1961 or 1962 Oldsmobile 98 hitting a  telephone pole dead center 
at 60 mph -- the pole pretty much cut the  car in half lengthwise. 
Horrible to watch -- the rear end and drive  train come out the back from 
under the car and the body just keeps  crunching up.  Finally stops with 
the telephone pole where the rear  seat should be.  And that car weighed 
almost 4000 lbs, too.


Surprisingly, the dummy wasn't impaled on the steering column, a very 
common fatality in those days.


There was a fatal accident in town a week or so ago when some idiot 
running from the police blew a light and T-boned a Cadillac (fairly  new, 
I think) with a Ford Taurus and killed the driver of the Caddy.   I don't 
know if it was on the driver's door or passenger side, I  didn't see the 
pics, but this is similar to the accident I had the my  old 300D where I 
got hit in the driver's door by a work van (Chevy  3500 series fully 
loaded).  I walked away, somewhat battered, but the  guy in the Caddy 
died.  There is something wrong here, I think -- he  may have not had his 
seat belt on, and if not probably died from head  trauma, but if he was 
belted in he should have survived anyway.


Naturally, the idiot driving 80 miles an hour into an intersection  with a 
very narrow, 45 degree turn just past the crossroad  intersection didn't 
get a scratch.  He is going to spend significant  time in prison, though.


Peter

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Re: [MBZ] Bel Air vs Malibu and crumple zones

[John Robbins]

pm7...@comcast.net wrote:

I'm driving 65 MPH, look in my mirror to change lanes, there's a bike
 about 500 feet behind me. I pull in front, holy crap, he screams by 
me going about 120!


This is normal in Germany...  I was cruising along at 130mph in the fast
lane, and nobody ever pulled out in front of me even with that large of
a speed differential!  The drivers there are AMAZING!!!

A random tidbit... most of the drivers there go 60-70, and about 10-15%
cruise at high speed.  Most of the cars that passed me were BMW's, MB
being next in line, and after that it was a pretty good mix.  FWIW, a
Ford Focus *flew* by me when I was going about 100mph!!

John


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Re: [MBZ] Bel Air vs Malibu and crumple zones

[Mountain Man]

--R wrote:
> Throw the man a fish.

...gimme an "F"...
...
mao

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Re: [MBZ] Bel Air vs Malibu and crumple zones

[Rich Thomas]

Throw the man a fish.

--R

Mountain Man wrote:

--R wrote:
  

OK read the previous post and think about it a bit.



It was sole - as in heel.
...just to be obvious...
mao

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Re: [MBZ] Bel Air vs Malibu and crumple zones

[Mountain Man]

Dimitri wrote:
> Let's not forget that morbidity and mortality are not synonymous!

Yes, and let's not forget that either of those is certain for each of us.
So, shrug and get on with life.  When the big whatever happens, it
happens - whether it be a fully loaded work truck doing 80mph, a
bullet, or any of the top 10 in the soyouwanna link.  We die, and
accidents happen.  If someone is doing killings for a purpose, I might
want to join nra and have some guns around to stop them - but most
death is accidental.  If we could get over that reality - we might
lose some of our "health care" fiascos these days.  Let us old guys
die, already - the genX guys already wear the t'tshirts telling us old
guys that sentiment, as I understand it.
mao

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Re: [MBZ] Bel Air vs Malibu and crumple zones

[Mountain Man]

--R wrote:
> OK read the previous post and think about it a bit.

It was sole - as in heel.
...just to be obvious...
mao

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Re: [MBZ] Bel Air vs Malibu and crumple zones

[Dimitri Seretakis]

Let's not forget that morbidity and mortality are not synonymous!

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 28, 2009, at 11:58 AM, pm7...@comcast.net wrote:

Not sure where your 300 per year morbidity rate come from. I'll assume its 
true. 

So what is the cost of all the death, damage and suffering by those who are not 
apprehended? 

Is it good if they are trained that if they run, they will not be pursed. Do 
you spank a child who runs into the street if they don't get hit by a car? I 
did, right than, right now! 

300/year is less that 1 per year, a tragic loss if you or your loved one is 
lost. It does pale in the light of the bigger number of 43,000 annual motor 
vehicle deaths as quoted here; 
http :// www . soyouwanna .com/site/ toptens /accidents/ accidentsfull . html 




-- 

Peter T. Arnold P.M. x3 
All Mail to: 
Secretary Hartford Evergreen Lodge #88 A.F. & A.M. 
34 Country Club Drive 
Windsor, CT 06095 


- Original Message - 
From: "Mitch Haley" < mlh @voyager.net> 
To: "Mercedes Discussion List" < mercedes @ okiebenz .com> 
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 8:33:18 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern 
Subject: Re: [ MBZ ] Bel Air vs Malibu and crumple zones 

pm7...@comcast.net wrote: 
Amongst the "Experts" there is no consensus of correct action here. 

Who needs "experts"? 
Either police chases offer some benefit to society that's worth more than the 
300 or so lives lost annually, or they don't. This isn't a pro-cop/anti-cop 
subject, it's a simple policy choice, with widely available statistical data to 
inform the choice. If we end these chases, the lives we save (or about 1/5 of 
them anyway) may be the cops' . 

a duty sargent will often call of a pusuit using third person judgement. I 
wouldn't second guess him either. 

I would, as did the author of the opinion piece I linked. How in the world 
would 
he know, listening to the chase on the radio, when it gets out of hand? The 
only 
one in a position to know is the chaser, but he's to busy chasing (and fueled 
by 
adrenalin) to think about it. 
Many cops do, of their own volition, break off a chase when the fleeing 
subject's actions appear to be dangerous. Many others don't, and then when the 
dash cam tapes are released after a fatality, we look at them with the benefit 
of hindsight and think "this was nuts, no traffic ticket could be worth that". 

BTW, when making my initial reply, I failed to catch the part about the car 
doing the T-bone traveling at 80mph. Due to the velocity squared factor, that 
car at 80mph probably had significantly more kinetic energy than the van that 
hit the W124 at 60mph. (I'm still impressed by the W124's performance, 
especially considering that it was designed around 1985) 

Mitch. 

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Re: [MBZ] Bel Air vs Malibu and crumple zones

[Peter Frederick]

That was me.

He was probably going faster, but not by much (only three blocks from  
a right angle turn) and it would take two or three empty Taurus  
sedans to equal a fully loaded work van


Peter

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Re: [MBZ] Bel Air vs Malibu and crumple zones

[pm7088]

Not sure where your 300 per year morbidity rate come from. I'll assume its 
true. 

So what is the cost of all the death, damage and suffering by those who are not 
apprehended? 

Is it good if they are trained that if they run, they will not be pursed. Do 
you spank a child who runs into the street if they don't get hit by a car? I 
did, right than, right now! 

300/year is less that 1 per year, a tragic loss if you or your loved one is 
lost. It does pale in the light of the bigger number of 43,000 annual motor 
vehicle deaths as quoted here; 
http :// www . soyouwanna .com/site/ toptens /accidents/ accidentsfull . html 




-- 

Peter T. Arnold P.M. x3 
All Mail to: 
Secretary Hartford Evergreen Lodge #88 A.F. & A.M. 
34 Country Club Drive 
Windsor, CT 06095 


- Original Message - 
From: "Mitch Haley" < mlh @voyager.net> 
To: "Mercedes Discussion List" < mercedes @ okiebenz .com> 
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 8:33:18 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern 
Subject: Re: [ MBZ ] Bel Air vs Malibu and crumple zones 

pm7...@comcast.net wrote: 
> Amongst the "Experts" there is no consensus of correct action here. 

Who needs "experts"? 
Either police chases offer some benefit to society that's worth more than the 
300 or so lives lost annually, or they don't. This isn't a pro-cop/anti-cop 
subject, it's a simple policy choice, with widely available statistical data to 
inform the choice. If we end these chases, the lives we save (or about 1/5 of 
them anyway) may be the cops' . 

> a duty sargent will often call of a pusuit using third person judgement. I 
> wouldn't second guess him either. 

I would, as did the author of the opinion piece I linked. How in the world 
would 
he know, listening to the chase on the radio, when it gets out of hand? The 
only 
one in a position to know is the chaser, but he's to busy chasing (and fueled 
by 
adrenalin) to think about it. 
Many cops do, of their own volition, break off a chase when the fleeing 
subject's actions appear to be dangerous. Many others don't, and then when the 
dash cam tapes are released after a fatality, we look at them with the benefit 
of hindsight and think "this was nuts, no traffic ticket could be worth that". 

BTW, when making my initial reply, I failed to catch the part about the car 
doing the T-bone traveling at 80mph. Due to the velocity squared factor, that 
car at 80mph probably had significantly more kinetic energy than the van that 
hit the W124 at 60mph. (I'm still impressed by the W124's performance, 
especially considering that it was designed around 1985) 

Mitch. 

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Re: [MBZ] Bel Air vs Malibu and crumple zones

[Rich Thomas]

OK read the previous post and think about it a bit.

--R

Mitch Haley wrote:

Rich Thomas wrote:

What a heel.


The biker who blew by Peter?

I had one of those a couple of years ago.
Heard him (probably had the 16v's roof open), saw him approach fast 
from behind, watched him go by with about 80mph speed differential, 
sounded like he had the throttle pegged, engine was a loud steady 
drone at high rpm.


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Bel Air vs Malibu and crumple zones

[Mitch Haley]

pm7...@comcast.net wrote:
Amongst the "Experts" there is no consensus of correct action here. 


Who needs "experts"?
Either police chases offer some benefit to society that's worth more than the 
300 or so lives lost annually, or they don't. This isn't a pro-cop/anti-cop 
subject, it's a simple policy choice, with widely available statistical data to 
inform the choice. If we end these chases, the lives we save (or about 1/5 of 
them anyway) may be the cops'.


a duty sargent will often call of a pusuit using third person judgement. I wouldn't second guess him either. 


I would, as did the author of the opinion piece I linked. How in the world would 
he know, listening to the chase on the radio, when it gets out of hand? The only 
one in a position to know is the chaser, but he's to busy chasing (and fueled by 
adrenalin) to think about it.
Many cops do, of their own volition, break off a chase when the fleeing 
subject's actions appear to be dangerous. Many others don't, and then when the 
dash cam tapes are released after a fatality, we look at them with the benefit 
of hindsight and think "this was nuts, no traffic ticket could be worth that".


BTW, when making my initial reply, I failed to catch the part about the car 
doing the T-bone traveling at 80mph. Due to the velocity squared factor, that 
car at 80mph probably had significantly more kinetic energy than the van that 
hit the W124 at 60mph. (I'm still impressed by the W124's performance, 
especially considering that it was designed around 1985)


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Bel Air vs Malibu and crumple zones

[Mitch Haley]

Rich Thomas wrote:

What a heel.


The biker who blew by Peter?

I had one of those a couple of years ago.
Heard him (probably had the 16v's roof open), saw him approach fast from behind, 
watched him go by with about 80mph speed differential, sounded like he had the 
throttle pegged, engine was a loud steady drone at high rpm.


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Bel Air vs Malibu and crumple zones

[pm7088]

-- 
Theres a seat belt law in Texas? I subscribed to Polk County newspaper for a 
year {Daily News comes out twice a week?}. 
Seems that every 2 weeks some bloke would assume room temperature after being 
ejected from his pick-up truck. 
Peter Arnold 

Windsor, CT 


When I moved to Texas in 99 the legislature had just passed a law that 
said the driver could not be drinking and driving. Made it kind of hard 
to measure distances then on your travels ("Thass about a 3 beer trip") 
Then the next year they banned the passengers from drinking too. Then 
sometime later I think the seatbelt law was instituted, 
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Re: [MBZ] Bel Air vs Malibu and crumple zones

[Rich Thomas]

When I moved to Texas in 99 the legislature had just passed a law that 
said the driver could not be drinking and driving.  Made it kind of hard 
to measure distances then on your travels ("Thass about a 3 beer trip")  
Then the next year they banned the passengers from drinking too.  Then 
sometime later I think the seatbelt law was instituted, then a law that 
said you couldn't have those things surrounding your license plates 
(which was done to give cops an excuse to pull you over "just because") 
and that got rescinded the next year because the voters actually howled 
in outrage.


Now if they could just get the "guest workers" and their extended 
families to learn about drivers' licenses, insurance, the actual process 
of driving, using seatbelts (It's a cultural thing), and not putting 15 
people in a vehicle, that might make things even better.


--R

Hendrik & Fay wrote:
Well according to that bit of crap the insurance companies and the 
highway mob are solely responsible for advancing automotive safety in 
the last 50 years.
And here is MB and other manufacturers claiming that they developed 
safety systems, tsk tsk tsk.
What did I read in another post, only a couple of months ago Texas 
decided that seat belts safe lives. If the insurance companies and the 
highway mob reckon that they have any bearing on car safety they are 
fn dreaming.


Hendrik

relng...@aol.com wrote:
To celebrate their 50th anniversary, the Insurance Institute for 
Highway Safety crashed a 1959 Chevrolet Bel Air into a 2009 Chevrolet 
Malibu. The video speaks for itself and makes the need for crumple 
zones obvious.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CU-k0XmLUk&feature=player_embedded#t=45

RLE

  



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Re: [MBZ] Bel Air vs Malibu and crumple zones

[Rich Thomas]

What a heel.

--R

pm7...@comcast.net wrote:
Amongst the "Experts" there is no consensus of correct action here. 

After working 12 years in local amulance service, I would never have the testicles to question the motives of a police pursuit. That being said, a duty sargent will often call of a pusuit using third person judgement. I wouldn't second guess him either. 

Unfortunately, when people do bad things, other folks get hurt by "Friendly Fire". 

The State PD in my state will not pursue a motorcycle, they have been blamed in the press for the death of too many hapless bikers who wrecked while being chased. 
WTF? Where are my rights? 
I'm driving 65 MPH, look in my mirror to change lanes, there's a bike about 500 feet behind me. I pull in front, holy crap, he screams by me going about 120! If I'd have killed him, I would have blamed myself and my sole would have been troubled for a long time. 



  


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Re: [MBZ] Bel Air vs Malibu and crumple zones

[pm7088]

Amongst the "Experts" there is no consensus of correct action here. 

After working 12 years in local amulance service, I would never have the 
testicles to question the motives of a police pursuit. That being said, a duty 
sargent will often call of a pusuit using third person judgement. I wouldn't 
second guess him either. 

Unfortunately, when people do bad things, other folks get hurt by "Friendly 
Fire". 

The State PD in my state will not pursue a motorcycle, they have been blamed in 
the press for the death of too many hapless bikers who wrecked while being 
chased. 
WTF? Where are my rights? 
I'm driving 65 MPH, look in my mirror to change lanes, there's a bike about 500 
feet behind me. I pull in front, holy crap, he screams by me going about 120! 
If I'd have killed him, I would have blamed myself and my sole would have been 
troubled for a long time. 


-- 

Peter Arnold 

Windsor, CT 

- Original Message - 
From: "Mitch Haley"  
To: "Mercedes Discussion List"  
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 7:19:28 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Bel Air vs Malibu and crumple zones 

Peter Frederick wrote: 

> There was a fatal accident in town a week or so ago when some idiot 
> running from the police blew a light and T-boned a Cadillac (fairly new, 
> I think) with a Ford Taurus and killed the driver of the Caddy. 

If the pursuit was only going 60 or so, a list member survived getting whacked 
in the driver door of a W124 by a van at that speed not too long ago. 

We don't expect good judgment from some idiot fleeing from police, but do we 
have the right to expect better judgment from the cops themselves? 
http://www.examiner.com/x-15870-Populist-Examiner~y2009m8d11-Time-for-police-to-end-high-speed-chases
 

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Re: [MBZ] Bel Air vs Malibu and crumple zones

[Mitch Haley]

Peter Frederick wrote:

There was a fatal accident in town a week or so ago when some idiot 
running from the police blew a light and T-boned a Cadillac (fairly new, 
I think) with a Ford Taurus and killed the driver of the Caddy. 


If the pursuit was only going 60 or so, a list member survived getting whacked 
in the driver door of a W124 by a van at that speed not too long ago.


We don't expect good judgment from some idiot fleeing from police, but do we 
have the right to expect better judgment from the cops themselves?

http://www.examiner.com/x-15870-Populist-Examiner~y2009m8d11-Time-for-police-to-end-high-speed-chases

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Re: [MBZ] Bel Air vs Malibu and crumple zones

[Hendrik & Fay]

Well according to that bit of crap the insurance companies and the 
highway mob are solely responsible for advancing automotive safety in 
the last 50 years.
And here is MB and other manufacturers claiming that they developed 
safety systems, tsk tsk tsk.
What did I read in another post, only a couple of months ago Texas 
decided that seat belts safe lives. If the insurance companies and the 
highway mob reckon that they have any bearing on car safety they are fn 
dreaming.


Hendrik

relng...@aol.com wrote:
To celebrate their 50th anniversary, the Insurance Institute for Highway 
Safety crashed a 1959 Chevrolet Bel Air into a 2009 Chevrolet Malibu. The 
video speaks for itself and makes the need for crumple zones obvious.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CU-k0XmLUk&feature=player_embedded#t=45

RLE

  



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Re: [MBZ] Bel Air vs Malibu and crumple zones

[Craig McCluskey]

On Sun, 27 Sep 2009 22:36:50 EDT relng...@aol.com wrote:

> To celebrate their 50th anniversary, the Insurance Institute for Highway
> 
> Safety crashed a 1959 Chevrolet Bel Air into a 2009 Chevrolet Malibu.
> The  video speaks for itself and makes the need for crumple zones
> obvious.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CU-k0XmLUk&feature=player_embedded#t=45

That's really amazing!


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Bel Air vs Malibu and crumple zones

[Peter Frederick]

The flimsy construction of late 1950's and early 1960 american made  
cars is terrifying.  I think the high speed expensive Italian ones  
were worse, but the lack of a substantial frame and the single sheet  
metal body simply smashed flat in accidents.  I can still close my  
eyes and see the film of a 1961 or 1962 Oldsmobile 98 hitting a  
telephone pole dead center at 60 mph -- the pole pretty much cut the  
car in half lengthwise.  Horrible to watch -- the rear end and drive  
train come out the back from under the car and the body just keeps  
crunching up.  Finally stops with the telephone pole where the rear  
seat should be.  And that car weighed almost 4000 lbs, too.


Surprisingly, the dummy wasn't impaled on the steering column, a very  
common fatality in those days.


There was a fatal accident in town a week or so ago when some idiot  
running from the police blew a light and T-boned a Cadillac (fairly  
new, I think) with a Ford Taurus and killed the driver of the Caddy.   
I don't know if it was on the driver's door or passenger side, I  
didn't see the pics, but this is similar to the accident I had the my  
old 300D where I got hit in the driver's door by a work van (Chevy  
3500 series fully loaded).  I walked away, somewhat battered, but the  
guy in the Caddy died.  There is something wrong here, I think -- he  
may have not had his seat belt on, and if not probably died from head  
trauma, but if he was belted in he should have survived anyway.


Naturally, the idiot driving 80 miles an hour into an intersection  
with a very narrow, 45 degree turn just past the crossroad  
intersection didn't get a scratch.  He is going to spend significant  
time in prison, though.


Peter

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[MBZ] Bel Air vs Malibu and crumple zones

[RELNGSON]

To celebrate their 50th anniversary, the Insurance Institute for Highway 
Safety crashed a 1959 Chevrolet Bel Air into a 2009 Chevrolet Malibu. The 
video speaks for itself and makes the need for crumple zones obvious.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CU-k0XmLUk&feature=player_embedded#t=45

RLE
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