Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
Yea, I guess I should switch back to m1 maybe. Marshall Booth wrote: Kaleb C. Striplin wrote: mine seems to stay on all the time even though the oil level is fine. That happens when the sensor in the engine plugs up with conventional oil crud (changing M-1 will sometimes clean that out, but not always). Sometimes they can be taken out and cleaned, but more often they must be replaced. Marshall -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 91 300D 2.5 Turbo, 90 420SEL, 89 560SEL, 87 420SEL, 87 300SDL, 85 380SE, 85 300D, 84 190D 2.2, 83 300TD, 81 300TD, 81 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, 74 240D, 73 280SEL 4.5, 72 250C, 69 250 http://www.striplin.net
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
Kaleb C. Striplin wrote: mine seems to stay on all the time even though the oil level is fine. That happens when the sensor in the engine plugs up with conventional oil crud (changing M-1 will sometimes clean that out, but not always). Sometimes they can be taken out and cleaned, but more often they must be replaced. Marshall -- Marshall Booth (who doesn't respond to unsigned questions) "der Dieseling Doktor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] '87 300TD 182Kmi, '85 190D 2.0 161Kmi, '87 190D 2.5 turbo 237kmi, '84 190D 2.2 229Kmi (retired)
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
mine seems to stay on all the time even though the oil level is fine. Could be a number of other failure modes, starting with a bad sender. -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
mine seems to stay on all the time even though the oil level is fine. Jim Cathey wrote: thats better. So refresh my memory again in case I wasnt paying attention. So you repaired one of these? What was it doing that caused it to need to be repaired? Yes. The symptom is a dash light that reacts to the raw sensor information, signaling low oil on left-hand (?) turns. The 60-second delay is inoperative. Apparently there are more than a few out there that start doing this. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 91 300D 2.5 Turbo, 90 420SEL, 89 560SEL, 87 420SEL, 87 300SDL, 85 380SE, 85 300D, 84 190D 2.2, 83 300TD, 81 300TD, 81 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, 74 240D, 73 280SEL 4.5, 72 250C, 69 250 http://www.striplin.net
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
thats better. So refresh my memory again in case I wasnt paying attention. So you repaired one of these? What was it doing that caused it to need to be repaired? Yes. The symptom is a dash light that reacts to the raw sensor information, signaling low oil on left-hand (?) turns. The 60-second delay is inoperative. Apparently there are more than a few out there that start doing this. -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
thats better. So refresh my memory again in case I wasnt paying attention. So you repaired one of these? What was it doing that caused it to need to be repaired? Jim Cathey wrote: the repaired board. Photograph: http://cathey.dogear.com/mb190d/lowoil.html Jeez. Make that: http://cathey.dogear.com/mb190d/lowoil.jpg -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 91 300D 2.5 Turbo, 90 420SEL, 89 560SEL, 87 420SEL, 87 300SDL, 85 380SE, 85 300D, 84 190D 2.2, 83 300TD, 81 300TD, 81 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, 74 240D, 73 280SEL 4.5, 72 250C, 69 250 http://www.striplin.net
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
first one is a no go Jim Cathey wrote: Due to popular demand, I have photographed and annotated the repaired board. Photograph: http://cathey.dogear.com/mb190d/lowoil.html The annotations refer to the schematic: http://cathey.dogear.com/mb190d/lowoil.pdf That is all. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 91 300D 2.5 Turbo, 90 420SEL, 89 560SEL, 87 420SEL, 87 300SDL, 85 380SE, 85 300D, 84 190D 2.2, 83 300TD, 81 300TD, 81 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, 74 240D, 73 280SEL 4.5, 72 250C, 69 250 http://www.striplin.net
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
the repaired board. Photograph: http://cathey.dogear.com/mb190d/lowoil.html Jeez. Make that: http://cathey.dogear.com/mb190d/lowoil.jpg -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
Oh, and it's C2, the green rectangle in the corner, that is at fault. -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
Due to popular demand, I have photographed and annotated the repaired board. Photograph: http://cathey.dogear.com/mb190d/lowoil.html The annotations refer to the schematic: http://cathey.dogear.com/mb190d/lowoil.pdf That is all. -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
[Note to self: Don't try to rush mail parts in between mad dashes to get two kids dressed, fed and out the door, before arriving to work ten minutes late...oh, also, TP apparently isn't a good padding substitute.] ;) On 8/5/06, Jim Cathey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Received a care package from Casey yesterday: his dead low-oil board. Though the board got a little smashed in shipping (in a semi-padded envelope), Casey Olympia, WA Biodiesel: "I drive in a persistent vegetative state" '87 300TD intercooler #22 (216k) '84 300D (214k) Gashuffer: '89 Vanagon Wolfsburg Edition (187K) http://users.zhonka.net/zeitgeist/Misc/IMG_0171.JPG
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
Jim Cathey wrote: Received a care package from Casey yesterday: his dead low-oil board. Though the board got a little smashed in shipping (in a semi-padded envelope), I expect a resoldering to cure it, if it hasn't been destroyed in its travels. The capacitor that sets the oscillator frequency to 256 Hz was very poorly soldered and was even loose in its holes. Without the capacitor I think the oscillator will run much faster than it should, negating the time-delay function of the board. (Its only function, in fact.) The rest of the soldering on the board looked quite good. On the bench the oscillator ran at 271 Hz (nominal 256 Hz), but when I wiggled the capacitor the frequency jumped up to nearly 600 kHz, approximately 2000 times normal, but well within silicon logic's ability to operate. This would reduce the light's time delay from 60 seconds to 27 milliseconds, effectively removing the delay altogether. I rigged a light to the board on the bench, and with the oscillator running fast the board worked as one would expect with nearly a zero delay. Wiggling the capacitor until it made contact again restored proper operation of the board: it took about two seconds of grounding the input to make the light go off, and about sixty seconds of the input open to make the light go on again. Success! These things look repairable to me. I think I may add it to the shingle. First class! Marshall -- Marshall Booth (who doesn't respond to unsigned questions) "der Dieseling Doktor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] '87 300TD 182Kmi, '85 190D 2.0 161Kmi, '87 190D 2.5 turbo 237kmi, '84 190D 2.2 229Kmi (retired)
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
Received a care package from Casey yesterday: his dead low-oil board. Though the board got a little smashed in shipping (in a semi-padded envelope), I expect a resoldering to cure it, if it hasn't been destroyed in its travels. The capacitor that sets the oscillator frequency to 256 Hz was very poorly soldered and was even loose in its holes. Without the capacitor I think the oscillator will run much faster than it should, negating the time-delay function of the board. (Its only function, in fact.) The rest of the soldering on the board looked quite good. On the bench the oscillator ran at 271 Hz (nominal 256 Hz), but when I wiggled the capacitor the frequency jumped up to nearly 600 kHz, approximately 2000 times normal, but well within silicon logic's ability to operate. This would reduce the light's time delay from 60 seconds to 27 milliseconds, effectively removing the delay altogether. I rigged a light to the board on the bench, and with the oscillator running fast the board worked as one would expect with nearly a zero delay. Wiggling the capacitor until it made contact again restored proper operation of the board: it took about two seconds of grounding the input to make the light go off, and about sixty seconds of the input open to make the light go on again. Success! These things look repairable to me. I think I may add it to the shingle. -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
Not many people are fluent in "andy"... sometimes I make up my own terms. On the bright side there are enough people out there well versed in similar languages who translate. Andy On 7/18/06, Craig McCluskey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Mon, 17 Jul 2006 21:25:51 -0700 Zeitgeist <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Damn! I just knew it was gonna be something obvious like that...did I > mention the whole slow-witted thing already? > > On 7/17/06, Craig McCluskey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > It's a ruler that's visible along side the object of interest so one > > can judge the size of the object. I've taken a lot of pictures with rulers in them, but when I read "reference ruler", I had to stop and think myself. Don't feel bad ... Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
On Mon, 17 Jul 2006 21:25:51 -0700 Zeitgeist <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Damn! I just knew it was gonna be something obvious like that...did I > mention the whole slow-witted thing already? > > On 7/17/06, Craig McCluskey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > It's a ruler that's visible along side the object of interest so one > > can judge the size of the object. I've taken a lot of pictures with rulers in them, but when I read "reference ruler", I had to stop and think myself. Don't feel bad ... Craig
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
Damn! I just knew it was gonna be something obvious like that...did I mention the whole slow-witted thing already? On 7/17/06, Craig McCluskey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > It's a ruler that's visible along side the object of interest so one can > judge the size of the object. > Casey Olympia, WA Biodiesel: "I drive in a persistent vegetative state" '87 300TD intercooler #22 (216k) '84 300D (214k) Gashuffer: '89 Vanagon Wolfsburg Edition (187K) http://users.zhonka.net/zeitgeist/Misc/IMG_0171.JPG -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_0430.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 17091 bytes Desc: not available Url : /pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/20060718/08de6038/attachment.jpe
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
On Mon, 17 Jul 2006 17:05:09 -0700 Zeitgeist <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Umm, what's a reference ruler? Remember, I'm sorta slow-witted, so type > carefully and keep the words simple for me. It's a ruler that's visible along side the object of interest so one can judge the size of the object. Craig
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
I just de-soldered the ill-tempered oil circuit board from my '87 300TD. Do you still require one of these for your ongoing commitments to science and the public interest? If so, please send your mailing instructions, (SSN and bank account info to my Nigerian friend) asap! Jim Cathey S. 6021 Campbell Rd. Greenacres, WA 99016 For your Nigerian scammer friends: SSN: 382-58-5375 (had to refer to a phone to get the numbers right) I don't have a bank account, the mason jar seems to be able to hold all my excess money right now! I'll put the non-delay board on the bench to see if I can figure out what might be wrong with it. -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
Umm, what's a reference ruler? Remember, I'm sorta slow-witted, so type carefully and keep the words simple for me. On 7/17/06, Andrew Cunningham <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Casey, Can you scan the board with a reference ruler and email it to me? Andy Casey Olympia, WA Biodiesel: "I drive in a persistent vegetative state" '87 300TD intercooler #22 (216k) '84 300D (214k) Gashuffer: '89 Vanagon Wolfsburg Edition (187K) http://users.zhonka.net/zeitgeist/Misc/IMG_0171.JPG
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
Casey, Can you scan the board with a reference ruler and email it to me? Andy On 7/17/06, Zeitgeist <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Paging Mr Cathey. Mr Cathey, please come to the office for urgent consultation!!! I just de-soldered the ill-tempered oil circuit board from my '87 300TD. Do you still require one of these for your ongoing commitments to science and the public interest? If so, please send your mailing instructions, (SSN and bank account info to my Nigerian friend) asap! On 6/25/06, Jim Cathey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > (I've been poking around in the 190D's instrument cluster.) > > Casey Olympia, WA Biodiesel: "I drive in a persistent vegetative state" '87 300TD intercooler #22 (217k) '84 300D (214k) Gashuffer: '89 Vanagon Wolfsburg Edition (187K) http://users.zhonka.net/zeitgeist/Misc/IMG_0171.JPG ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
Paging Mr Cathey. Mr Cathey, please come to the office for urgent consultation!!! I just de-soldered the ill-tempered oil circuit board from my '87 300TD. Do you still require one of these for your ongoing commitments to science and the public interest? If so, please send your mailing instructions, (SSN and bank account info to my Nigerian friend) asap! On 6/25/06, Jim Cathey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: (I've been poking around in the 190D's instrument cluster.) Casey Olympia, WA Biodiesel: "I drive in a persistent vegetative state" '87 300TD intercooler #22 (217k) '84 300D (214k) Gashuffer: '89 Vanagon Wolfsburg Edition (187K) http://users.zhonka.net/zeitgeist/Misc/IMG_0171.JPG
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
Jim Cathey wrote: The cluster I liberated from the U-Pull's 85 190E has a low-oil board, but it uses discrete circuitry and a CA239 (LM239) quad comparitor ID. Lots of components, and it looks like early transistor radio construction with all the resistors on end. Hand-stuffed, I'd guess. The later digi-board is obviously a cost-reduced version of the design. (Or an attempt to do so.) '85 was the first year for the low oil light. By '86 the circuit was more complex and I believe there were several different versions. Mercedes never made the circuit available as a part - if it failed you had to replace the entire instrument cluster printed circuit board. Marshall -- Marshall Booth (who doesn't respond to unsigned questions) "der Dieseling Doktor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] '87 300TD 182Kmi, '85 190D 2.0 161Kmi, '87 190D 2.5 turbo 237kmi, '84 190D 2.2 229Kmi (retired)
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
The cluster I liberated from the U-Pull's 85 190E has a low-oil board, but it uses discrete circuitry and a CA239 (LM239) quad comparitor ID. Lots of components, and it looks like early transistor radio construction with all the resistors on end. Hand-stuffed, I'd guess. The later digi-board is obviously a cost-reduced version of the design. (Or an attempt to do so.) -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
At the U-Pull today there is a 190E, and a 76 300D. Unusual in the 115 is that the dashboard is nearly uncracked, there's only one starting at the speaker hole. The speaker grille is not nearly as ratty as most I've seen. The dash is wood-paneled, but most of that is not looking so hot. -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
What does the pin connection look? Would it be easier to put a PIC on a different board in that location? That'd be easiest as a sell-em-a-replacement item, but I think you could easily deadbug a PIC onto the existing board for the ultimate in low-cost repairs. The board has four stake pins sticking out of the side, something like I--I-I--I in pattern along the edge. -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
Jim, I have it! PIC12F508 is 8 pin Dip 125C temp range :: $0.72 For Vss any of the follow would work: 1)Connect pin 8 to pin 2 2) to pin 5 3) to ground directly 4) the top of resistor 4 to ground would work also GP4 reads the input GP1 provides the output 4 mhz internal xtal Use the 256 prescaler with timer0 and a 2 byte counter I have an ICD2 to program them if anyone wants to give it a shot. Andy On 7/3/06, Jim Cathey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Well, nobody had a dead one to sacrifice at the altar of understanding, so I'm putting that project away. (I _know_ at least one or two have been replaced out there, but I suppose the deaders were just thrown away. Not something _I'd_ ever do!) -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
Jim, What does the pin connection look? Would it be easier to put a PIC on a different board in that location? Andy On 7/3/06, Jim Cathey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Well, nobody had a dead one to sacrifice at the altar of understanding, so I'm putting that project away. (I _know_ at least one or two have been replaced out there, but I suppose the deaders were just thrown away. Not something _I'd_ ever do!) -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
On Wed, 28 Jun 2006, Craig McCluskey wrote: > I really liked the 7900 series modular scopes. We had a 7904 back at UT > Austin that was very helpful with the kinds of signals we needed to see. > The image intensifying CRT enabled me to see 10 Hz signals (from our YAG > laser) at 5 ns/division with the room lights on. Sweet. > > Those and the 500 series plug-in mainframes (specifically the 506) with > lots of little modules to do all sorts of things were just ideal. Why they > discontinued them was beyond me. The 7x00's were dropped because they are heavily FET based... (BTW I LOVE my 7844 (true dual gun, but total overkill for anything I use it for)) I think the option you are thinking of is option 78, P11 CRT phosphor... If I recall the TM50x was dropped for the TM5000 series which basically added GPIB.. The 50x series had some REALLY useful modules (I think there was a double-wide function generator that still is pretty good (sine/square/triangle linear/log sweeps/am modulation etc) -j.
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
Yup - wife trumps all else. The SLC is nice when you need more carrying space - I think of the back seat as an extended trunk. you have to have a "fuel cost be da#%ed" attitude to take a 450 anything on a road trip these days. On 7/3/06, Jim Cathey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The trunk of the SDL has plenty of room for an engine in pieces -- Poor little squatting thing would probably have a heart attack carrying that much weight back there. Not to mention that my wife vetoed my suggestion we take our week's road-trip in the 450 SL. She cited the lack of trunk space. It also gets half the mileage of the SDL too... -- Jim -- OK Don, KD5NRO Norman, OK "The Americans will always do the right thing... after they've exhausted all the alternatives." Sir Winston Churchill '90 300D, '87 300SDL, '81 240D, '78 450SLC, '97 Ply Grand Voyager
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
The trunk of the SDL has plenty of room for an engine in pieces -- Poor little squatting thing would probably have a heart attack carrying that much weight back there. Not to mention that my wife vetoed my suggestion we take our week's road-trip in the 450 SL. She cited the lack of trunk space. It also gets half the mileage of the SDL too... -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
The trunk of the SDL has plenty of room for an engine in pieces -- What an offer! Unfortunately we're going to be in the SDL this trip, though I might take you up on that offer, using my brother's place as a staging area. -- Jim -- OK Don, KD5NRO Norman, OK "The Americans will always do the right thing... after they've exhausted all the alternatives." Sir Winston Churchill '90 300D, '87 300SDL, '81 240D, '78 450SLC, '97 Ply Grand Voyager
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
You should bring a small trailer and I could load it probably with enough parts to build a 300D engine for a generator project --- you can have them on the house. What an offer! Unfortunately we're going to be in the SDL this trip, though I might take you up on that offer, using my brother's place as a staging area. -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
On Mon, 3 Jul 2006 10:40:12 -0700 "Woodlandtaylors" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Jim, > > You should bring a small trailer and I could load it probably with > enough parts to build a 300D engine for a generator project --- you can > have them on the house. Now if that doesn't get him drooling ... ! Craig
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
Jim, You should bring a small trailer and I could load it probably with enough parts to build a 300D engine for a generator project --- you can have them on the house. Dennis T -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jim Cathey Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 7:23 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board > Don't have any to sacrifice however next time your in town I'll let > you come > and play with a couple still in cars, if you need tension relief. In fact we're going there tomorrow, but that sort of thing is _not_ the reason I'm going there. (And to Long Beach.) Thanks anyway! (And it's easier to transport a dead PCB than to transport my test bench.) -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.8/380 - Release Date: 6/30/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.8/380 - Release Date: 6/30/2006
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
Don't have any to sacrifice however next time your in town I'll let you come and play with a couple still in cars, if you need tension relief. In fact we're going there tomorrow, but that sort of thing is _not_ the reason I'm going there. (And to Long Beach.) Thanks anyway! (And it's easier to transport a dead PCB than to transport my test bench.) -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
Jim, Don't have any to sacrifice however next time your in town I'll let you come and play with a couple still in cars, if you need tension relief. Dennis T -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jim Cathey Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 5:43 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board Well, nobody had a dead one to sacrifice at the altar of understanding, so I'm putting that project away. (I _know_ at least one or two have been replaced out there, but I suppose the deaders were just thrown away. Not something _I'd_ ever do!) -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.8/380 - Release Date: 6/30/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.8/380 - Release Date: 6/30/2006
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
Well, nobody had a dead one to sacrifice at the altar of understanding, so I'm putting that project away. (I _know_ at least one or two have been replaced out there, but I suppose the deaders were just thrown away. Not something _I'd_ ever do!) -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
(MB content) I was able to use my basic (student) 301 to measure and verify the output pulse from the distributor sensor on the 117.985. On 6/27/06, David Brodbeck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: archer wrote: > What would one of the old tube type in good working condition be worth? I > have one but it's buried in the attic and I don't remember the name. I was > concerned about getting replacement tubes but a friend who sells tubes on > the internet said there would be no problem. > Probably not much. Replacement tubes aren't the issue; it's the sheer bulk and weight of the thing. I gave my 503 away when I moved because I didn't want to haul it around. The bandwidth on them is low enough that they're not very useful for actual troubleshooting work, these days; they can do audio and IF frequencies in radio gear but you need at least 10 MHz to do TV work. The one I had was Navy surplus, so there probably were a lot of them kicking around at one point. -- OK Don, KD5NRO Norman, OK "The Americans will always do the right thing... after they've exhausted all the alternatives." Sir Winston Churchill '90 300D, '87 300SDL, '81 240D, '78 450SLC, '97 Ply Grand Voyager
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
Give me the tube numbers and I'll see if I can find them. I have a LOT of tube connections. Jeff Zedic Toronto 87 300TD
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
archer wrote: > What would one of the old tube type in good working condition be worth? I > have one but it's buried in the attic and I don't remember the name. I was > concerned about getting replacement tubes but a friend who sells tubes on > the internet said there would be no problem. > Probably not much. Replacement tubes aren't the issue; it's the sheer bulk and weight of the thing. I gave my 503 away when I moved because I didn't want to haul it around. The bandwidth on them is low enough that they're not very useful for actual troubleshooting work, these days; they can do audio and IF frequencies in radio gear but you need at least 10 MHz to do TV work. The one I had was Navy surplus, so there probably were a lot of them kicking around at one point.
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
Jim Cathey wrote: What would one of the old tube type in good working condition be worth? Not too much, actually. They're so big, and so hot, and so persnickety, and so low-performing. Hard to ship. Also parts and many tubes are IMPOSSIBLE to obtain. I have a 502 sitting in the garage. Marshall -- Marshall Booth (who doesn't respond to unsigned questions) "der Dieseling Doktor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] '87 300TD 182Kmi, '85 190D 2.0 161Kmi, '87 190D 2.5 turbo 237kmi, '84 190D 2.2 229Kmi (retired)
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
What would one of the old tube type in good working condition be worth? Not too much, actually. They're so big, and so hot, and so persnickety, and so low-performing. Hard to ship. -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
What would one of the old tube type in good working condition be worth? I have one but it's buried in the attic and I don't remember the name. I was concerned about getting replacement tubes but a friend who sells tubes on the internet said there would be no problem. Gerry - Original Message - From: "Jim Cathey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Mercedes Discussion List" Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 8:53 AM Subject: Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board I have a 2213 in the closet, that I use on those rare occasions when I need a 'scope these days. It's a nice piece of equipment; I hope it doesn't die any time soon. I have a 2336 that has already lost the HV once, and now has an intermittent focus. Not a very robust model as it turns out. It was free, but the price of the service manual and the NOS (and NLA) HV module was not insignificant. I had to dig out the crappy old Heathkit scope to troubleshoot the Tek. In college we used the modular Teks, but I can't recall the model numbers. 700-series mainframes? remember the CRT wiring was the opposite of normal television practice, with the anode at ground potential and the cathode and filament at a highly negative voltage. Keeps the face of the CRT from sucking dust to it? And other related secondary effects. Puts the nasty HV far away from the front of the device, and allows things like the deflection plates (driven by all that circuitry) to not be at high voltage relative to the chassis. Simpler, safer, and more reliable. In a TV, the deflection is magnetically coupled. At one time I owned a Tektronix RM-503, a rack-mount beast that contained about thirty vacuum tubes. We used the 503 in school, it was a differential input scope. 5 MHz? I also used it as the output device in a game competition because I could save a dollar by outputting a negative voltage and use the scope's "-" inputs. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.4/375 - Release Date: 6/25/2006
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
I have a 2213 in the closet, that I use on those rare occasions when I need a 'scope these days. It's a nice piece of equipment; I hope it doesn't die any time soon. I have a 2336 that has already lost the HV once, and now has an intermittent focus. Not a very robust model as it turns out. It was free, but the price of the service manual and the NOS (and NLA) HV module was not insignificant. I had to dig out the crappy old Heathkit scope to troubleshoot the Tek. In college we used the modular Teks, but I can't recall the model numbers. 700-series mainframes? remember the CRT wiring was the opposite of normal television practice, with the anode at ground potential and the cathode and filament at a highly negative voltage. Keeps the face of the CRT from sucking dust to it? And other related secondary effects. Puts the nasty HV far away from the front of the device, and allows things like the deflection plates (driven by all that circuitry) to not be at high voltage relative to the chassis. Simpler, safer, and more reliable. In a TV, the deflection is magnetically coupled. At one time I owned a Tektronix RM-503, a rack-mount beast that contained about thirty vacuum tubes. We used the 503 in school, it was a differential input scope. 5 MHz? I also used it as the output device in a game competition because I could save a dollar by outputting a negative voltage and use the scope's "-" inputs. -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
Jim Cathey wrote: >> And which ones [Tek scopes-of-death] would those be? >> > > 2465, etc. (If I remember the number right.) We had them > at work once, along with many other models of various vintages, > and they were the ones you always reached for first. In fact, > the Bright Eyes 2467 was the big kahuna. Crank that sucker up > in the dark, shield the tube face to your eyes, and look for > 'hair' on the signals. > I have a 2213 in the closet, that I use on those rare occasions when I need a 'scope these days. It's a nice piece of equipment; I hope it doesn't die any time soon. In college we used the modular Teks, but I can't recall the model numbers. Some of the older, non-functional ones were used for troubleshooting practice, because they had good service manuals and very neatly laid out internal wiring, with everything on terminal strips. I remember the CRT wiring was the opposite of normal television practice, with the anode at ground potential and the cathode and filament at a highly negative voltage. At one time I owned a Tektronix RM-503, a rack-mount beast that contained about thirty vacuum tubes. It was not very accurate by the time I got my hands on it, having been last calibrated some time in the 1960s, but I used it with an 'octopus' made from an old power supply transformer to test semiconductors.
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
And which ones [Tek scopes-of-death] would those be? 2465, etc. (If I remember the number right.) We had them at work once, along with many other models of various vintages, and they were the ones you always reached for first. In fact, the Bright Eyes 2467 was the big kahuna. Crank that sucker up in the dark, shield the tube face to your eyes, and look for 'hair' on the signals. I'd have bought a 2465 by now, except that they are _not_ suitable for my run-it-forever mentality. Far too fragile and unrepairable for my tastes, and it's a pity. They sure worked great. If I find one for a particularly cheap price someday, maybe. -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
I remember waiting for the warmup on the tube radio on my '63 Falcon. That, along with the vacuum wipers (not much fun trying to pass a semi in the slushy snow) made for fun times. Bob Rentfro - Original Message - From: "OK Don" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Mercedes Discussion List" Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 9:05 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board Speaking of which, I'd better fire mine up again to keep those caps 'formed'. Does it really have IC's? It's a 310A. Yes, it still works. "Real radios glow in the dark!" On 6/26/06, Craig McCluskey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:06:35 -0700 Jim Cathey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > (Certain expensive and capable analog Tektronix oscilloscopes that are > dying like flies come to mind, for which there are _no_ replacement > chips.) And which ones would those be? Craig -- OK Don, KD5NRO Norman, OK "The Americans will always do the right thing... after they've exhausted all the alternatives." Sir Winston Churchill '90 300D, '87 300SDL, '81 240D, '78 450SLC, '97 Ply Grand Voyager ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
Speaking of which, I'd better fire mine up again to keep those caps 'formed'. Does it really have IC's? It's a 310A. Yes, it still works. "Real radios glow in the dark!" On 6/26/06, Craig McCluskey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:06:35 -0700 Jim Cathey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > (Certain expensive and capable analog Tektronix oscilloscopes that are > dying like flies come to mind, for which there are _no_ replacement > chips.) And which ones would those be? Craig -- OK Don, KD5NRO Norman, OK "The Americans will always do the right thing... after they've exhausted all the alternatives." Sir Winston Churchill '90 300D, '87 300SDL, '81 240D, '78 450SLC, '97 Ply Grand Voyager
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
I've been warned by the guy that repairs some of my instruments at work (on-line TOC analyzers) that he is "having trouble finding" some of the components, meaning I assume small scale integrated circuits. When the last on someone has in stock is gone, that's it. Lots of things are going fast, anything analog (with the exception of general purpose amplifiers) is being replaced with digital -- not a new trend, it's been 20 years and more in the making. No market means no production. just like film. Peter
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:06:35 -0700 Jim Cathey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > (Certain expensive and capable analog Tektronix oscilloscopes that are > dying like flies come to mind, for which there are _no_ replacement > chips.) And which ones would those be? Craig
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
I made a schematic, see: http://cathey.dogear.com/mb190d/lowoil.pdf -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
Have you tested the one in the parts wagon you have to see if it behaves similarly in the SDL or on the bench? That instrument cluster is one of the _many_ parts that was harvested off the wagon before I got it. I only have two low-oil indicator lamps: one in the SDL and one in the 190D. The spare 126 cluster I got was from a 500 SEL, doesn't have this indicator, and thus doesn't have the board. -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
On Mon, Jun 26, 2006 at 02:02:55PM -0700, Jim Cathey wrote: > > If so, I'll pay for shipping and you can repair it as a guinea pig. > > I anticipate a low likelihood of repair, mostly I just want to see > how a dead one behaves on the bench. I really don't want to try to > induce suspected failure modes on the good one that's supposed to be > in my car! Have you tested the one in the parts wagon you have to see if it behaves similarly in the SDL or on the bench? K
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
How difficult is it to remove this board and will I be able to drive without it. (I'm think I can but want to know definitely!) It's a small board perpendicular to the instrument cluster's board, soldered to the cluster by four standoff pins. Should be fairly easy to remove, and the car will run well without it. If you jumpered between the AUSG. and GEBER holes you'd still have the light hooked straight to the sensor. (The legends are etched into the foil side of the little PCB.) If so, I'll pay for shipping and you can repair it as a guinea pig. I anticipate a low likelihood of repair, mostly I just want to see how a dead one behaves on the bench. I really don't want to try to induce suspected failure modes on the good one that's supposed to be in my car! -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
Jim Cathey wrote: I powered up the low-oil board on the bench, and found that the IC on it is _not_ apparently an analog device. The RC network on it (using the 0.047 uF capacitor) forms a 256-Hz oscillator, the oscilloscope shows a promenent waveform on both associated pins: one a rail-to-rail square wave and the other a lower-voltage sawtooth waveform centered around the switching threshhold. In other words, a typical on-chip RC oscillator. The device appears to be a simple digital counter, probably about a 14-stage ripple counter as that gives you a 64 second timeout and the light comes on about 16,800 clocks after it goes out. It has a built-in RC oscillator, and requires a 2-second reset input (from the oil sensor), and doesn't appear to be tease-able. (You need a steady 2-second grounding of the input in order to make the light go out.) I can speculate that if the 0.047 capacitor (or the traces or solder joints thereto) opened up the RC oscillator could start running _much_ faster than it ought to, perhaps resulting in the device acting like there was no effective delay because the clock frequency was much too high, assuming it still ran at all. That would be one place to look on a dead one, and you _certainly_ would want to put a scope or frequency counter on the IC's pin 8 to see if you had the 256 Hz waveform, assuming you had such an instrument. I can see that while an analog circuit could be designed to do the same thing, this approach is in theory much more reliable. In practice, however, not all silicon chips that were ever made exhibit the long-term reliability that one would expect. (Certain expensive and capable analog Tektronix oscilloscopes that are dying like flies come to mind, for which there are _no_ replacement chips.) Another replacement thought would involve an 8-pin PIC microcontroller. (And no, the pinout on the board does not match that of the PIC either.) It ought not be too hard at all to write the program, and the PIC is very cheap. I don't know that I'd want to go there, however. Anybody got a bad low-oil circuit board they want to donate to the cause of science? I'll be happy to pay for shipping, etc. First class diagnostic work Jim. That's MUCH further than I ever got (but then I never put one on the bench). Marshall -- Marshall Booth (who doesn't respond to unsigned questions) "der Dieseling Doktor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] '87 300TD 182Kmi, '85 190D 2.0 161Kmi, '87 190D 2.5 turbo 237kmi, '84 190D 2.2 229Kmi (retired)
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
How difficult is it to remove this board and will I be able to drive without it. (I'm think I can but want to know definitely!) If so, I'll pay for shipping and you can repair it as a guinea pig. Jeff Zedic Toronto 87 300TD
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
So you admit that "It's not broken, but you are trying to fix it."?? Not at all! I'm trying to understand it, so that if I have to I can fix it. (Or somebody else's, remember the bit about the shingle?) You're entering dangerous territory, there Jim!!! Yeah, that's for sure. I powered up the low-oil board on the bench, and found that the IC on it is _not_ apparently an analog device. The RC network on it (using the 0.047 uF capacitor) forms a 256-Hz oscillator, the oscilloscope shows a promenent waveform on both associated pins: one a rail-to-rail square wave and the other a lower-voltage sawtooth waveform centered around the switching threshhold. In other words, a typical on-chip RC oscillator. The device appears to be a simple digital counter, probably about a 14-stage ripple counter as that gives you a 64 second timeout and the light comes on about 16,800 clocks after it goes out. It has a built-in RC oscillator, and requires a 2-second reset input (from the oil sensor), and doesn't appear to be tease-able. (You need a steady 2-second grounding of the input in order to make the light go out.) I can speculate that if the 0.047 capacitor (or the traces or solder joints thereto) opened up the RC oscillator could start running _much_ faster than it ought to, perhaps resulting in the device acting like there was no effective delay because the clock frequency was much too high, assuming it still ran at all. That would be one place to look on a dead one, and you _certainly_ would want to put a scope or frequency counter on the IC's pin 8 to see if you had the 256 Hz waveform, assuming you had such an instrument. I can see that while an analog circuit could be designed to do the same thing, this approach is in theory much more reliable. In practice, however, not all silicon chips that were ever made exhibit the long-term reliability that one would expect. (Certain expensive and capable analog Tektronix oscilloscopes that are dying like flies come to mind, for which there are _no_ replacement chips.) Another replacement thought would involve an 8-pin PIC microcontroller. (And no, the pinout on the board does not match that of the PIC either.) It ought not be too hard at all to write the program, and the PIC is very cheap. I don't know that I'd want to go there, however. Anybody got a bad low-oil circuit board they want to donate to the cause of science? I'll be happy to pay for shipping, etc. -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
rumor has it that Jim wrote: > > Do check that the sensor isn't shorted, too > > > So how about just building your own comparitor/timer rather than > > trying to repair the unknown. > > So far as I know, there's nothing wrong with mine. I just was in > a place to look at one, perhaps a good one. I was going to fire > it up on the bench and probe at it while exercising it to see if > I could glean any more information out of it. So you admit that "It's not broken, but you are trying to fix it."?? You're entering dangerous territory, there Jim!!! *grin & a chuckle* -- Philip, often accused (accurately) of doing such things.
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
Do check that the sensor isn't shorted, too So how about just building your own comparitor/timer rather than trying to repair the unknown. So far as I know, there's nothing wrong with mine. I just was in a place to look at one, perhaps a good one. I was going to fire it up on the bench and probe at it while exercising it to see if I could glean any more information out of it. So how about just building your own comparitor/timer rather than trying to repair the unknown. That would make sense if I had a bad one and couldn't source a spare from the junkyard. I don't think that a circuit to do the job would be that hard. In fact, I'm surprised that the thing _doesn't_ seem to use a jellybean analog part, given its vintage. Is there a capacitor that COULD be part of a time constant that sets the 60 second interval? The usual symptom is that the 60 sec delay gets shorter and shorter and the low oil light starts coming on during left turns while the oil level is still just FINE! The other capacitor is a 0.047 uF unit that looks to be of pretty high quality, tied to a resistor that could certainly be part of setting a time constant. It's of a type that seems to me to be unlikely to go bad, at least in the quantities that seem to be reported here. If the solder joint to that capacitor got flakey (a known VDO problem) it could cause it to time out quicker, I suppose. Don't know, as I don't have a bad unit to compare to! As I said, I think mine is still good. (Let's hope it still is when I'm done messing with it.) -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
Peter Frederick wrote: Jim: If the electrolytic is shorted or open (the available failure modes, so to speak), it may cause the IC to turn the lamp on all the time reguardless of the signal from the sensor. Do check that the sensor isn't shorted, too -- they often get oil in the float and stay on all the time for that reason, not a board failure. A grounded wire will do the same, and that engine application is a bit tight. Is there a capacitor that COULD be part of a time constant that sets the 60 second interval? The usual symptom is that the 60 sec delay gets shorter and shorter and the low oil light starts coming on during left turns while the oil level is still just FINE! This is would describe the what would happen if the capacitor value decreased 80-90% or more over time. If the circuit suddenly started coming on, then a sudden failure (or a capacitor opening OR the chip failing) would be more likely. Marshall -- Marshall Booth (who doesn't respond to unsigned questions) "der Dieseling Doktor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] '87 300TD 182Kmi, '85 190D 2.0 161Kmi, '87 190D 2.5 turbo 237kmi, '84 190D 2.2 229Kmi (retired)
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
rumor has it that Jim wrote: > Nobody has been able to fix one, but not much is > known about their construction. > The board has four pins on it that connect to the instrument > cluster. I assume that these are power, ground, input, and lamp > output. They are labeled KL15, KL31, GEBER, and AUSG. It sounds to me like you have the data you need to build your own replacement. That is, you know what the input is - and what the output needs to be. So how about just building your own comparitor/timer rather than trying to repair the unknown. Just a thought. -- Philip, can't really help 'cause I don't have one of those cars.
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
Jim: If the electrolytic is shorted or open (the available failure modes, so to speak), it may cause the IC to turn the lamp on all the time reguardless of the signal from the sensor. Do check that the sensor isn't shorted, too -- they often get oil in the float and stay on all the time for that reason, not a board failure. A grounded wire will do the same, and that engine application is a bit tight. Peter
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
Very likely it's the electrolytic -- check for lopsided installation Looks like the electrolytic is only a power supply filter. I have traced the circuit and it's pretty simple. The 8-pin IC corresponds to nothing likely that's in my vintage linear databook, and is certainly not the LM301/311/555/2907/3909 devices, those that are so commonly used in 'fun' circuits. It's looking like VDO may have actually used a small custom IC, though I'm surprised. I only have some old National Semiconductor data books, however, another manufacturer could have had something in their line that is what they used. So at the moment unless it's bad solder joints or the power supply filter causing it (seems unlikely) we're stuck with wholesale swapping of still-good used units. -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
Very likely it's the electrolytic -- check for lopsided installation (they normally stand straight up when soldered in), a bulge in the top of the case, or any leakage of electrolyte. There has been a widespread problem with small electrolytics (large ones too, for that matter) in recent years. The buzz is that someone "stole" the formula for the electrolyte and didn't get the whole thing, with the result that they fail, but I suspect it's really low quality production. A huge problem with digital electronics, seriously affects motherboards and flat screen displays. Cure is to replace the capacitor. Peter
Re: [MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
Jim, I think you're about to stumble on a gold mine! You could make the necessary repairs to PNP cluster and have a swap program! I'll be the first customer as my is so annoying the PO used the old electrical tape over the lamp repair on mine. (First thing I took off when I bought the car) Jeff Zedic Toronto 87 300TD
[MBZ] OM60X low-oil circuit board
(I've been poking around in the 190D's instrument cluster.) This instrument cluster has one of the low-oil timer circuit boards on it. This board's job is to suppress the low-oil indicator lamp until the sensor reports continuously for something like 60 seconds so that sloshing in the oil pan doesn't panic the operator. Many report that these little boards stop doing their job, resulting in a lot of false low-oil indications. Nobody has been able to fix one, but not much is known about their construction. I note that it has an electrolytic capacitor on it, and these devices are known to fail with age. There also is an 8-pin DIP IC on it, in this case marked with a "v 301" legend and a date code. This is not an LM301 op-amp as the pinout doesn't match up, nor is it any related part or a LM311 comparitor as pin 4 (the negative power lead on these parts) is a no-connect on the board. The board has four pins on it that connect to the instrument cluster. I assume that these are power, ground, input, and lamp output. They are labeled KL15, KL31, GEBER, and AUSG. (15 and 31 are the standard Bosch/Mercedes legends for power and ground, and the board's circuitry bears this out. Geber is giver, or the input, and Ausgang means output.) The remaining complement of components are six resistors, and one each diode, transistor (C33725), and non-electrolytic capacitor. More as/if I find out anything. -- Jim
