Re: [MBZ] UPS vs IPS

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

They all do.  At least all the recent ones.  Switching mode
power supplies promptly turn the AC into DC - at line
voltage.  That means about 120 VDC.  This is then used to
drive the DC-to-DC converters that result in +12, +5, +3, -5,
etc.  Feed it a steady DC in their voltage range and it
should be quite happy.


Not to imply that the designers _intended_ for you to open
them up to find the main DC rail and (ab)use it that way.
But it ought to work, modulo the always-on portion that
lets you use a pushbutton power switch, or lets the machine
turn itself off.  That could be a separate internal power
supply (for efficiency).  Or not.

Also, the DC rail is not 120V.  A rectifier converts 120V
AC _RMS_ to its _peak_ voltage, not its _power-average_
voltage.  120 * sqrt(2) == 170 or so.  (Modulo droop caused
by loading.)  It'd probably be happy with less, but possibly
not quite so little as 120VDC.  Supplies that will accept
100-240V VAC (not uncommon for world-rated gear) should
run happily on 140-340VDC, and probably on somewhat less.

Try it and see!  I recommend using a machine you don't
care too much about, to start.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] UPS vs IPS

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Sat, 10 Oct 2015 02:32:10 -0500 fmiser via Mercedes
 wrote:

> They all do.  At least all the recent ones.  Switching mode
> power supplies promptly turn the AC into DC - at line
> voltage.  That means about 120 VDC.  This is then used to
> drive the DC-to-DC converters that result in +12, +5, +3, -5,
> etc.  Feed it a steady DC in their voltage range and it
> should be quite happy.

As Jim already pointed out, the rectified DC is about 165 - 170 VDC.

The power factor corrected versions have a second switching supply (a
buck/boost configuration) that is in front of the DC bus that make the
input look more like a resistor than a capacitor (which has large charging
spikes near the peak of the input waveform). These will change the voltage
range of DC operation, but should not have any problems running off
straight DC.



On Sat, 10 Oct 2015 07:16:02 -0700 Jim Cathey via Mercedes
 wrote:

>  modulo the always-on portion that lets you use a pushbutton power
> switch, or lets the machine turn itself off.  That could be a separate
> internal power supply (for efficiency).  Or not.

In the supplies I have seen, those are indeed a separate internal
power supply. IIRC, I even saw one that had a 60 Hz transformer --
something that would not like a straight DC input.


> Try it and see!  I recommend using a machine you don't care too much
> about, to start.

You can, by shorting the correct terminals of a computer power supply's
motherboard connector, run the power supply without connecting it to a
computer motherboard. It's been awhile since I have done that, so I don't
remember the exact way to do it.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] UPS vs IPS

[fmiser via Mercedes]

> Meade wrote:
> 
> Are there PC power supplies that accept DC power as well as
> AC power?

They all do.  At least all the recent ones.  Switching mode
power supplies promptly turn the AC into DC - at line
voltage.  That means about 120 VDC.  This is then used to
drive the DC-to-DC converters that result in +12, +5, +3, -5,
etc.  Feed it a steady DC in their voltage range and it
should be quite happy.

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Re: [MBZ] UPS vs IPS

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

G: No, I mean a 110v generator feeding an inverter that converts it to 
DC.


Terminology.  That's not an _inverter_!  Converting AC to DC is
easy, cheap, and common.  Inverting the process is not, relatively
speaking.

The inverter-based generators, like Honda's EU1000i, are DC generators
that feed AC inverters.  (Almost certainly they are AC alternators
feeding 3-wave bridge rectifiers to make DC, exactly like what a car
does.  Frequency [pre-filtration] is variable, and irrelevant.)
That's what they _do_.

G: If that sort of UPS were available, that's all that would be 
needed, I would think.


They are, you just have to look them up.  They will eat any sort
of trash and emit clean output.  Not the cheapest variety.  But
one thing that seems to always be available is a surplus UPS
with bad batteries.  A new APC2000 wasn't $35, but that's what
I paid for mine.  Plus $350 for new oversized batteries, and
it's been working for a decade now.  (And another $40 for a
used battery to replace the one early [4.5 year] failure.)

But computer equipment is _not_ particularly sensitive.  Why
should it be?  You just need to protect it from giant surges
and the like.  Any trashy generator should be fine for those,
so long as it wasn't a cheap POS that's running right on the
ragged edge of failure anyway.

Most of ours are rated 100-240V, 50-60 Hz.  That doesn't sound
all that sensitive, does it?

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] UPS vs IPS

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

> On October 9, 2015 at 1:08 AM archer75--- via Mercedes 
> wrote:
> 
> G: No, I mean a 110v generator feeding an inverter that converts it to DC.
> Then, the inverter feeds the DC to another inverter that produces a 110v sine
> wave. Then, if the sine wave is now a steady 60hz but with a squirrelly sine
> wave, a sine wave line conditioner would be added. 

Could the first step just as easily be a bridge rectifier?

Exactly how are the "inverter generators" wired?

Mitch. 

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Re: [MBZ] UPS vs IPS

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Fri, 9 Oct 2015 10:40:53 -0400 Meade Dillon via Mercedes
 wrote:

> And then your computer takes the 110-240V 50-60Hz and turns it back into
> DC...

Yup.


> A laptop needs a DC input, maybe some efficiency could be gained by
> simply converting the AC from the generator to DC once, and then only
> consuming DC on that circuit? 

Yes.


> Lights and water heaters don't care about frequency, batteries charge
> fine on DC last I checked.

The water heater temperature-sensitive switch might not like DC since it
will tend to arc. What you use to charge batteries determines whether you
can charge with DC. A 60-Hz-transformer-based charger will not work on DC.


> Are there PC power supplies that accept DC power as well as AC power?

There are PC power supplies which accept DC only. Depending how they are
built, "normal" PC power supplies may accept a DC input just fine, but it
will likely need to be 170 VDC.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] UPS vs IPS

[Tim Crone via Mercedes]

On Oct 7, 2015 11:52 PM, "Jim Cathey via Mercedes" 
wrote:
>>
>
> Budget is essentially zero, as what we have serves the needs.
> We just charge UPS on rope-pull; heat water, cook, dry on BB.

May be time for an upgrade, that seems way too complicated.  Andrew says
solar is a good deal; I'll bet your generator could power a whole heap of
incandescents, and you could set up a fan + wind farm to keep them cool!

Best,
Tim
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Re: [MBZ] UPS vs IPS

[Meade Dillon via Mercedes]

And then your computer takes the 110-240V 50-60Hz and turns it back into
DC...

A laptop needs a DC input, maybe some efficiency could be gained by simply
converting the AC from the generator to DC once, and then only consuming DC
on that circuit?  Lights and water heaters don't care about frequency,
batteries charge fine on DC last I checked.

Are there PC power supplies that accept DC power as well as AC power?

-
Max
Charleston SC

On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 10:05 AM, Jim Cathey via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

>
> Terminology.  That's not an _inverter_!  Converting AC to DC is
> easy, cheap, and common.
>
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Re: [MBZ] UPS vs IPS

[fmiser via Mercedes]

> > Max wrote:
> >
> > In Jim's case, I don't think I'd want to compete against
> > your kid in making
> > _anything_!

> Jim wrote:
> 
> These are not inherited traits.  Kid can't make anything
> material. Not interested.

True.  However, without environment it is less likely for
talent to develop into skill.

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Re: [MBZ] UPS vs IPS

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

Jim,

Your unit has a mechanical flyweight governor that is either belt or gear 
driven. It's probably a Hoof, Pierce, or something comparable.

You can use the Google to get more information on the Hoof governors, as the 
operation is pretty common amongst all mechanical governors.

You'll have a speed control screw or adjustment and a sensitivity adjustment. 
The sensitivity adjustment usually consists of a lever or bolt with the end 
attached to a spring. By lengthening or shortening this bolt, you change the 
sensitivity or gain of the governor. This determines how sensitive the governor 
is to changes in engine speed.

In your case, I suspect your governor sensitivity is too high, meaning that 
even small changes in engine speed will cause the governor to react. As a 
result, the engine speed is unstable or oscillates for a while after the change 
takes place.  It's possible you have fuel system problems, but absent that, the 
governor is the most likely culprit.

There are some really detailed instructions on the following web site:

www.foleyengines.com

If you put the term "governor" in the search box on their home page the first 
hit will be "Tech tip #182: Foley Universal Governor Installation Guide"

Dan

Sent from my iPad

On Oct 7, 2015, at 11:48 PM, Jim Cathey  wrote:

>> from the way things sound. A well adjusted mechanical governor shouldn't 
>> vary more than 3Hz at load changes, and that would be heavy loads. If it 
>> does, something is not adjusted properly or he's got fuel system issues.
> 
> Yeah, that mechanical thingy has holes and springs.  I have no instructions
> on how to set it up right.
> 
> -- Jim
> 

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Re: [MBZ] UPS vs IPS

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Wed, 7 Oct 2015 19:51:18 -0400 archer75--- via Mercedes
 wrote:

> 
> I'm thinking two inverters back to back

You mean a DC power supply feeding an inverter ...


> and a sine wave line conditioner feeding the computer equipment on a
> special circuit; assuming that the inverters can handle a squirrelly
> sine wave. The DC coming into the second inverter should be converted
> into reasonable good sine waves, and the line conditioner should fine
> tune them. Gerry

A DC power supply, particularly of the linear sort, should be able to
handle a squirrelly sine wave. But a DC power supply feeding an inverter
is exactly what a certain class of UPS is, though I forget the special
name.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] UPS vs IPS

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

But a DC power supply feeding an inverter is exactly what a certain 
class of UPS is, though I forget the special name.


Me too, but all four of our big UPS's are that kind.  APC's Smart-UPS 
x2,

and Best Power's FerrUPS x2.  We're using the small 2kVA APC.  Backups?
We gotcher backups right here...

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] UPS vs IPS

[archer75--- via Mercedes]

> > Gerry wrote:
> > I'm thinking two inverters back to back

> Craig wrote:
> You mean a DC power supply feeding an inverter ...

G: No, I mean a 110v generator feeding an inverter that converts it to DC.
Then, the inverter feeds the DC to another inverter that produces a 110v sine 
wave. Then, if the sine wave is now a steady 60hz but with a squirrelly sine 
wave, a sine wave line conditioner would be added. 
This would be a separate low power circuit feeding low power consumption 
computer equipment. 

> > and a sine wave line conditioner feeding the computer equipment on a
> > special circuit; assuming that the inverters can handle a squirrelly
> > sine wave. The DC coming into the second inverter should be converted
> > into reasonable good sine waves, and the line conditioner should fine
> > tune them.
> 
> A DC power supply, particularly of the linear sort, should be able to
> handle a squirrelly sine wave. But a DC power supply feeding an inverter
> is exactly what a certain class of UPS is, though I forget the special
> name.
> Craig

G: If that sort of UPS were available, that's all that would be needed, I would 
think.

If a generator has a DC output sufficient to run the computer equipment after 
being inverted, that's all that would be needed if the inverter produces a good 
sine wave; but if not, then a sine wave line conditioner could be added to the 
circuit. The idea would be to overcome the varying rpm of the generator since 
the inverter produces it's own, and to correct any other variations in the sine 
wave.

I'm not sure any of this would work since I've never put together such a 
circuit.

Gerry

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Re: [MBZ] UPS vs IPS

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

In Jim's case, I don't think I'd want to compete against your kid in 
making

_anything_!


These are not inherited traits.  Kid can't make anything material.
Not interested.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] UPS vs IPS

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

Not sure if it's in the budget, but it could be retrofitted for an 
electronic or "isochronous" governor for a few bucks. That keeps it 
dead nuts at 60Hz no load to full load.


Budget is essentially zero, as what we have serves the needs.
We just charge UPS on rope-pull; heat water, cook, dry on BB.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] UPS vs IPS

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

from the way things sound. A well adjusted mechanical governor 
shouldn't vary more than 3Hz at load changes, and that would be heavy 
loads. If it does, something is not adjusted properly or he's got fuel 
system issues.


Yeah, that mechanical thingy has holes and springs.  I have no 
instructions

on how to set it up right.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] UPS vs IPS

[archer75--- via Mercedes]

I'm thinking two inverters back to back and a sine wave line conditioner 
feeding the computer equipment on a special circuit; assuming that the 
inverters can handle a squirrelly sine wave. The DC coming into the second 
inverter should be converted into reasonable good sine waves, and the line 
conditioner should fine tune them.
Gerry

> > but they wouldn't recharge on my generator which tended to run
> > outside the 57-63 Hz UPS threshold for OK power.
> 
> IIRC, that is a bit of an issue.  These things need a "Hey,
> it's not _that_ bad" switch on them or something.  Shut up
> and eat your electrons...
> 
> Ironically, I have the worst problem with Big Bertha.  Its
> regulation is terrible.  I'm not sure what it is, I may
> have something wrong that could be addressed, but we've
> only used it a handful of times, after the power has been
> down for days and it's time for hot showers, laundry, etc.
> It works good enough for that, but the UPS's aren't buying
> it.  "You call _that_ power?  My _kid_ could make better
> power than that."

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Re: [MBZ] UPS vs IPS

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

but they wouldn't recharge on my generator which tended to run
outside the 57-63 Hz UPS threshold for OK power.


IIRC, that is a bit of an issue.  These things need a "Hey,
it's not _that_ bad" switch on them or something.  Shut up
and eat your electrons...

Ironically, I have the worst problem with Big Bertha.  Its
regulation is terrible.  I'm not sure what it is, I may
have something wrong that could be addressed, but we've
only used it a handful of times, after the power has been
down for days and it's time for hot showers, laundry, etc.
It works good enough for that, but the UPS's aren't buying
it.  "You call _that_ power?  My _kid_ could make better
power than that."

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] UPS vs IPS

[Meade Dillon via Mercedes]

In Jim's case, I don't think I'd want to compete against your kid in making
_anything_!

-
Max
Charleston SC

On Wed, Oct 7, 2015 at 9:53 AM, Jim Cathey via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> but they wouldn't recharge on my generator which tended to run
>> outside the 57-63 Hz UPS threshold for OK power.
>>
>
> IIRC, that is a bit of an issue.  These things need a "Hey,
> it's not _that_ bad" switch on them or something.  Shut up
> and eat your electrons...
>
> Ironically, I have the worst problem with Big Bertha.  Its
> regulation is terrible.  I'm not sure what it is, I may
> have something wrong that could be addressed, but we've
> only used it a handful of times, after the power has been
> down for days and it's time for hot showers, laundry, etc.
> It works good enough for that, but the UPS's aren't buying
> it.  "You call _that_ power?  My _kid_ could make better
> power than that."
>
> -- Jim
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] UPS vs IPS

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

Jim's issue is due to variations in the engine speed. No buck/boost transformer 
will fix that.

He needs to get the sensitivity ("gain") on the governor adjusted properly, 
from the way things sound. A well adjusted mechanical governor shouldn't vary 
more than 3Hz at load changes, and that would be heavy loads. If it does, 
something is not adjusted properly or he's got fuel system issues.

The sine waves won't be bad from this machine. The problem is frequency 
variation, which a lot of modern devices (UPSs' included) won't tolerate. Go 
outside of the window of acceptance and they go offline.

Even more common with commercial units, as they want to keep the duty cycle as 
low as possible on the inverters, so they'll have a really narrow window of 
acceptance for frequency that makes them not like anything that's less stable 
than utility power.

Big issue in my former line of work. Often required that we force the UPSs' 
frequency window to be opened up when on standby power. A lot of commercial 
UPSs' have an input that tells them to open up the frequency acceptance when a 
dry contact signal is present.

Dan

Sent from my iPad

> On Oct 7, 2015, at 10:28 AM, Curly McLain via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> You need a "buck booster" in between.  basically regulates the power supply.  
> takes crappy  waves and makes nice sine waves.
> 
> Had that problem with helco in Hawaii.  had to use a buck booster between the 
> building power and electronics not designed to handle turd world power 
> utilities.
> 
> 
>>> but they wouldn't recharge on my generator which tended to run
>>> outside the 57-63 Hz UPS threshold for OK power.
>> 
>> IIRC, that is a bit of an issue.  These things need a "Hey,
>> it's not _that_ bad" switch on them or something.  Shut up
>> and eat your electrons...
>> 
>> Ironically, I have the worst problem with Big Bertha.  Its
>> regulation is terrible.  I'm not sure what it is, I may
>> have something wrong that could be addressed, but we've
>> only used it a handful of times, after the power has been
>> down for days and it's time for hot showers, laundry, etc.
>> It works good enough for that, but the UPS's aren't buying
>> it.  "You call _that_ power?  My _kid_ could make better
>> power than that."
>> 
>> -- Jim
> 
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Re: [MBZ] UPS vs IPS

[Curly McLain via Mercedes]

You need a "buck booster" in between.  basically regulates the power 
supply.  takes crappy  waves and makes nice sine waves.


Had that problem with helco in Hawaii.  had to use a buck booster 
between the building power and electronics not designed to handle 
turd world power utilities.




but they wouldn't recharge on my generator which tended to run
outside the 57-63 Hz UPS threshold for OK power.


IIRC, that is a bit of an issue.  These things need a "Hey,
it's not _that_ bad" switch on them or something.  Shut up
and eat your electrons...

Ironically, I have the worst problem with Big Bertha.  Its
regulation is terrible.  I'm not sure what it is, I may
have something wrong that could be addressed, but we've
only used it a handful of times, after the power has been
down for days and it's time for hot showers, laundry, etc.
It works good enough for that, but the UPS's aren't buying
it.  "You call _that_ power?  My _kid_ could make better
power than that."

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] UPS vs IPS

[Curly McLain via Mercedes]

Jim,

You shouldn't be seeing that kind of variation in frequency unless 
you're running really lightly loaded and/or your governor 
sensitivity isn't set properly.


That unit has a mechanical or "droop" governor. It should be set for 
around 63Hz at no load, with 60Hz at full load. You can adjust it so 
you're at 60Hz at a lower load if that's where your total loads max 
out.


Not sure if it's in the budget, but it could be retrofitted for an 
electronic or "isochronous" governor for a few bucks. That keeps it 
dead nuts at 60Hz no load to full load.


Dan

Sent from my iPad


"Da Man" has spoken!  that's a better idea than a buck booster.  But 
when you are stuck with turd world utilities, the buck booster is 
about your only choice.


What I saw in Africa was that the utility was only good for 
resistance heating.  Way too much fluctuation in every parameter for 
most equip.  One place, a mill,  had enough dead 'lectric motors 
piled up to fill several shipping containers.


Mostly Deutsch or Italian motors, and those like "clean" sine waves. 
THey tend not to fare well with dirty wave forms.


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Re: [MBZ] UPS vs IPS

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

Jim,

You shouldn't be seeing that kind of variation in frequency unless you're 
running really lightly loaded and/or your governor sensitivity isn't set 
properly.

That unit has a mechanical or "droop" governor. It should be set for around 
63Hz at no load, with 60Hz at full load. You can adjust it so you're at 60Hz at 
a lower load if that's where your total loads max out.

Not sure if it's in the budget, but it could be retrofitted for an electronic 
or "isochronous" governor for a few bucks. That keeps it dead nuts at 60Hz no 
load to full load.

Dan

Sent from my iPad

On Oct 7, 2015, at 9:53 AM, Jim Cathey via Mercedes  
wrote:

>> but they wouldn't recharge on my generator which tended to run
>> outside the 57-63 Hz UPS threshold for OK power.
> 
> IIRC, that is a bit of an issue.  These things need a "Hey,
> it's not _that_ bad" switch on them or something.  Shut up
> and eat your electrons...
> 
> Ironically, I have the worst problem with Big Bertha.  Its
> regulation is terrible.  I'm not sure what it is, I may
> have something wrong that could be addressed, but we've
> only used it a handful of times, after the power has been
> down for days and it's time for hot showers, laundry, etc.
> It works good enough for that, but the UPS's aren't buying
> it.  "You call _that_ power?  My _kid_ could make better
> power than that."
> 
> -- Jim
> 
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