Re: [MBZ] price of diesel...interesting theory...
I really couldn't find much. Here is a report on the proposal...but I am pretty sure it passed, but I think it's UP TO $4,000 based on the vehicles enviro-friendliness...and I bet diesel is not rated at $4,000...if anyone finds out more, please let us know. Christopher --- Curt Raymond <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Got any more info on that tax credit? With $4k off a > new Jetta or Passat starts to look real interesting > to me. Maybe even a Liberty with the Italian diesel, > esp if they get the 6spd manual shift in it. > > -Curt > > > Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 16:47:37 -0700 (PDT) > From: Christopher McCann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: [MBZ] price of diesel...interesting > theory... > To: Mercedes mailing list <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Message-ID: > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > LCDR, > > Data point: very good. Makes sense as I have read > transportation shifts to rail in economic > downturns...the refineries would have tweaked their > refining for less diesel, now as demand has been > lowly > rising (as you observe in Charleston), I can see how > there really could be a shortage...Oil Co's were too > slow on "correcting the correction." > > 2nd para: good point. It makes it easier to achieve > BioD and DinoD "parity", but my point was > gasoline/diesel disparity...I wonder, even with the > $4,000 tax incentive to buy a new diesel, how many > people have NOT bought a diesel b/c of the higher > price of diesel fuel (that would still be stupid, > though because the difference is made up by the > greater economy of diesel vehicles) to say nothing > of > the $4000 credit on the new vehicle. > > Makes me want to buy a 320 CDI :-) (want and afford > are two different things). > > > > __ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > ___ > For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For new parts see www.buymbparts.com > For repairs see www.oldworldauto.com > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net > Christopher McCann, Raytown, Missouri -1985 300SD, 207K miles, "Wulf" http://don.homelinux.net/mbz/Chris -1976 240D, ManyK miles, "AKP-Wagen" (Alternativen Kraftstoffs Prüfenlastwagen = Alternative Fuel Test Vehicle) -1998 Toyota Sienna CE, 99K miles, "The Van" Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
Re: [MBZ] price of diesel...interesting theory...no W115
I've never driven a 123 240D, but my co-worker has one (parked next to my 300SD right now)...so it won't be long. A fello co-worker (has 300Dt) drove both and commented that the 115 was "peppier" (better accelerations) than the 123. THAT, I was not expecting. The W115 looks very cool too, even though mine is rusting badly (what do you expect for $500)...runs great though (and stops too!) Christopher --- B Dike <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Christopher, > > The W115 is indeed a fun car! Our W115 240D is way > faster than our W123 240D, and it drives nicer. > > Bruce > > --- Christopher McCann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > I know these threads get tiring, but I am still in > > my > > first year of "dieseling" and I recall from this > > past > > winter the mantra "Diesel is always higher in the > > winter because of demand for heating oil. Gas is > > higher in the summer becuase of the travel season" > > Fall agricultural use also uses alot of diesel it > > was > > said...can't see, personally, how it's more than > > planting in winter - it should be less. Plow, > till, > > rotovate, plant, cultivate, etc...harvest is > nothing > > in comparison. > > > > ANYWAY, What the hell is the story now? > > > > >From what I know, there are no "diesel > refineries", > > there are oil refineries and all sorts of stuff > gets > > separated out. It can only be two things, it > seems: > > 1. Higher demand. Well, I doubt that as train > > shipping > > has jumped substantially (this happens in > uncertain > > economic times and confirmed by my friend who > works > > for one of the big rail freight lines) and trains > > use > > ALOT less diesel to move the same freight as > trucks > > would. Is trucking up so much to offset this and > > create higher demand? > > 2. Conspiracy (unproveable speculation here). The > > oil > > companies remember that the '70's oil crisis > caused > > a > > jump in the sale of diesel vehicles. It's > happening > > again. Many new diesel models introduced. Front > > cover > > of local car mag advertized the diesel Passat > Wagon > > at > > 30-whatever mpg, etc. Fed gov just passed a $4,000 > > (!) > > tax credit for the purchase of a new diesel > vehicle. > > > > The oil co's didn't care in the 70's/80's as they > > sold > > gas and diesel. WHAT IS DIFFERENT NOW is that BioD > > is > > becoming increasingly popular (log way to go, but > no > > doubt it is happening). I am wondering if they are > > not > > keeping the cost high to DISSUADE the purchase of > > diesel vehicles which in a few years might be able > > to > > fill up on BioD for less than dinoD, which will > mean > > $0 from THAT customer to big oil (unless they are > in > > the BioD game too (I would be if I were them)). > > > > In Germany BioD is the CHEAPEST fuel > available...so > > with economy of scale, price will come way down. > > (Euro > > fuels are so high becuase they are about 70% tax). > > > > Thoughts on the conspiracy theory? > > > > P.S. THe old 240D (new to me) is working great. > > Fun...going from the SD to it is like driving a > > Mercedes go-cart...peppier than I thought (W115 > > might > > be the reason). > > > > Thanks. > > > > Christopher McCann, Raytown, Missouri > > -1985 300SD, 207K miles, "Wulf" > > http://don.homelinux.net/mbz/Chris > > -1976 240D, ManyK miles, "AKP-Wagen" > (Alternativen > > Kraftstoffs Prüfenlastwagen = Alternative Fuel > Test > > Vehicle) > > -1998 Toyota Sienna CE, 99K miles, "The Van" > > > > __ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > > protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > ___ > > For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > For new parts see www.buymbparts.com > > For repairs see www.oldworldauto.com > > > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > > > http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net > > > > > Bruce > 82 300CD 333kmi 'His' > 85 300CD 234kmi 'Hers' > 75 240D 185kmi 'Theirs' (Back in Commission) > 77 240D 199kmi 'The Brown Car' > > __ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > ___ > For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For new parts see www.buymbparts.com > For repairs see www.oldworldauto.com > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net > Christopher McCann, Raytown, Missouri -1985 300SD, 207K miles, "Wulf" http://don.homelinux.net/mbz/Chris -1976 240D, ManyK miles, "AKP-Wagen" (Alternativen Kraftstoffs Prüfenlastwagen = Alternative Fuel Test Vehicle) -1998 Toyota Sienna CE, 99K miles, "The Van" __ Yahoo! Mail for Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail
Re: [MBZ] price of diesel...interesting theory...no W115
Christopher, The W115 is indeed a fun car! Our W115 240D is way faster than our W123 240D, and it drives nicer. Bruce --- Christopher McCann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I know these threads get tiring, but I am still in > my > first year of "dieseling" and I recall from this > past > winter the mantra "Diesel is always higher in the > winter because of demand for heating oil. Gas is > higher in the summer becuase of the travel season" > Fall agricultural use also uses alot of diesel it > was > said...can't see, personally, how it's more than > planting in winter - it should be less. Plow, till, > rotovate, plant, cultivate, etc...harvest is nothing > in comparison. > > ANYWAY, What the hell is the story now? > > >From what I know, there are no "diesel refineries", > there are oil refineries and all sorts of stuff gets > separated out. It can only be two things, it seems: > 1. Higher demand. Well, I doubt that as train > shipping > has jumped substantially (this happens in uncertain > economic times and confirmed by my friend who works > for one of the big rail freight lines) and trains > use > ALOT less diesel to move the same freight as trucks > would. Is trucking up so much to offset this and > create higher demand? > 2. Conspiracy (unproveable speculation here). The > oil > companies remember that the '70's oil crisis caused > a > jump in the sale of diesel vehicles. It's happening > again. Many new diesel models introduced. Front > cover > of local car mag advertized the diesel Passat Wagon > at > 30-whatever mpg, etc. Fed gov just passed a $4,000 > (!) > tax credit for the purchase of a new diesel vehicle. > > The oil co's didn't care in the 70's/80's as they > sold > gas and diesel. WHAT IS DIFFERENT NOW is that BioD > is > becoming increasingly popular (log way to go, but no > doubt it is happening). I am wondering if they are > not > keeping the cost high to DISSUADE the purchase of > diesel vehicles which in a few years might be able > to > fill up on BioD for less than dinoD, which will mean > $0 from THAT customer to big oil (unless they are in > the BioD game too (I would be if I were them)). > > In Germany BioD is the CHEAPEST fuel available...so > with economy of scale, price will come way down. > (Euro > fuels are so high becuase they are about 70% tax). > > Thoughts on the conspiracy theory? > > P.S. THe old 240D (new to me) is working great. > Fun...going from the SD to it is like driving a > Mercedes go-cart...peppier than I thought (W115 > might > be the reason). > > Thanks. > > Christopher McCann, Raytown, Missouri > -1985 300SD, 207K miles, "Wulf" > http://don.homelinux.net/mbz/Chris > -1976 240D, ManyK miles, "AKP-Wagen" (Alternativen > Kraftstoffs Prüfenlastwagen = Alternative Fuel Test > Vehicle) > -1998 Toyota Sienna CE, 99K miles, "The Van" > > __ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > ___ > For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For new parts see www.buymbparts.com > For repairs see www.oldworldauto.com > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net > Bruce 82 300CD 333kmi 'His' 85 300CD 234kmi 'Hers' 75 240D 185kmi 'Theirs' (Back in Commission) 77 240D 199kmi 'The Brown Car' __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [MBZ] price of diesel...interesting theory...
Bob DuPuy wrote: > One additional factor, at least in Florida, The last time I checked > the state added about $.24/gal tax on gas and $.48/gal on diesel. It > is just another hidden tax on all the trucked in consumables you buy > at the store. In Michigan, diesel carries a *lower* tax (by something like $0.02) but it's *still* more expensive than regular unleaded.
Re: [MBZ] price of diesel...interesting theory...
Got any more info on that tax credit? With $4k off a new Jetta or Passat starts to look real interesting to me. Maybe even a Liberty with the Italian diesel, esp if they get the 6spd manual shift in it. -Curt Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 16:47:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher McCann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [MBZ] price of diesel...interesting theory... To: Mercedes mailing list <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 LCDR, Data point: very good. Makes sense as I have read transportation shifts to rail in economic downturns...the refineries would have tweaked their refining for less diesel, now as demand has been lowly rising (as you observe in Charleston), I can see how there really could be a shortage...Oil Co's were too slow on "correcting the correction." 2nd para: good point. It makes it easier to achieve BioD and DinoD "parity", but my point was gasoline/diesel disparity...I wonder, even with the $4,000 tax incentive to buy a new diesel, how many people have NOT bought a diesel b/c of the higher price of diesel fuel (that would still be stupid, though because the difference is made up by the greater economy of diesel vehicles) to say nothing of the $4000 credit on the new vehicle. Makes me want to buy a 320 CDI :-) (want and afford are two different things). __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [MBZ] price of diesel...interesting theory...
You're right - forgot about that. It's to cover the damage done to the roads by semi's, but we get stuck paying it too. Christopher --- Bob DuPuy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > One additional factor, at least in Florida, The last > time I checked > the state added about $.24/gal tax on gas and > $.48/gal on diesel. It > is just another hidden tax on all the trucked in > consumables you buy > at the store. > > Bob Dupuy > > ___ > For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For new parts see www.buymbparts.com > For repairs see www.oldworldauto.com > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net > Christopher McCann, Raytown, Missouri -1985 300SD, 207K miles, "Wulf" http://don.homelinux.net/mbz/Chris -1976 240D, ManyK miles, "AKP-Wagen" (Alternativen Kraftstoffs Prüfenlastwagen = Alternative Fuel Test Vehicle) -1998 Toyota Sienna CE, 99K miles, "The Van" Sell on Yahoo! Auctions no fees. Bid on great items. http://auctions.yahoo.com/
Re: [MBZ] price of diesel...interesting theory...
The BioD conspirators actually will depend on the BigOil boys to move the product, because it is an economy of scale and small timers need the distribution network already in place to get product where it needs to go. The same issues with H2 pump. Have to have a pump where the cars are. On Friday, July 8, 2005, at 02:43 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Shipmates, I don't buy the BioD Conspiracy Theory, because it will encourage BioD producers by providing an easier price level to 'meet or beat'. BigOil (undoubtably part of the vast right-wing conspiracy) will then lose business when existing customers leave, which hurts a lot more than losing potential future customers. Very respectfully, /s/ LCDR Meade M. Dillon, USNR -- Clay Seattle Bioburner 1972 220D - Gump 1995 E300D - Cleo 1987 300SDL - POS - DOA
Re: [MBZ] price of diesel...interesting theory...
I don't remember the exact amounts, but OK is doing the same. On 7/8/05, Bob DuPuy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > One additional factor, at least in Florida, The last time I checked > the state added about $.24/gal tax on gas and $.48/gal on diesel. It > is just another hidden tax on all the trucked in consumables you buy > at the store. > > Bob Dupuy > -- OK Don, KD5NRO Norman, OK '87 300SDL '81 240D '78 450SLC
Re: [MBZ] price of diesel...interesting theory...
One additional factor, at least in Florida, The last time I checked the state added about $.24/gal tax on gas and $.48/gal on diesel. It is just another hidden tax on all the trucked in consumables you buy at the store. Bob Dupuy
Re: [MBZ] price of diesel...interesting theory...
it's up. My company is expecting around 20% growth per year over the next 5 years. Most trucking companies are growing in the 10-20% range. The amount of diesel traffic is growing daily. Google the trucking industry and growth and see what you find. On Fri, 8 Jul 2005 13:33:26 -0700 (PDT), Christopher McCann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: "What leads you to believe that diesel demand is up?" -- Luther KB5QHU Alma, Ark '83 300SD (happily running WVO/diesel mix) '82 300CD Slate grey, black MBTex, 152,xxx mi
Re: [MBZ] price of diesel...interesting theory...
LCDR, Data point: very good. Makes sense as I have read transportation shifts to rail in economic downturns...the refineries would have tweaked their refining for less diesel, now as demand has been lowly rising (as you observe in Charleston), I can see how there really could be a shortage...Oil Co's were too slow on "correcting the correction." 2nd para: good point. It makes it easier to achieve BioD and DinoD "parity", but my point was gasoline/diesel disparity...I wonder, even with the $4,000 tax incentive to buy a new diesel, how many people have NOT bought a diesel b/c of the higher price of diesel fuel (that would still be stupid, though because the difference is made up by the greater economy of diesel vehicles) to say nothing of the $4000 credit on the new vehicle. Makes me want to buy a 320 CDI :-) (want and afford are two different things). Christopher --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Shipmates, > > Here's a datapoint: trucking traffic here in > Charleston SC (major shipping port) has dramatically > increased in the last 6 months, so I'd be willing to > bet that demand is up across the country. When I > moved here in '99, just a few months before the > bubble burst, truck traffic was huge, and it almost > immediately dried up at the crash. It's been slowly > coming back since then, but much more noticably so > in recent months. > > I don't buy the BioD Conspiracy Theory, because it > will encourage BioD producers by providing an easier > price level to 'meet or beat'. BigOil (undoubtably > part of the vast right-wing conspiracy) will then > lose business when existing customers leave, which > hurts a lot more than losing potential future > customers. > > > Very respectfully, > /s/ > LCDR Meade M. Dillon, USNR > 85 300TD 321k miles (Euro 5spd) > '96 Infiniti I30 148k miles (wife's 5spd) > '73 Balboa 20 'Sanctification' > Charleston SC > > "Most men would rather die, than think. Many do." > Bertrand Russell > > > ___ > For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For new parts see www.buymbparts.com > For repairs see www.oldworldauto.com > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net > Christopher McCann, Raytown, Missouri -1985 300SD, 207K miles, "Wulf" http://don.homelinux.net/mbz/Chris -1976 240D, ManyK miles, "AKP-Wagen" (Alternativen Kraftstoffs Prüfenlastwagen = Alternative Fuel Test Vehicle) -1998 Toyota Sienna CE, 99K miles, "The Van" __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
RE: [MBZ] price of diesel...interesting theory...
"What leads you to believe that diesel demand is up?" I don't think it's up, I think it's down. If so, then supply would have to be WAY down to justify a market based explanation of diesel's high cost in relation to gasoline. These figures must be somewhere. Anyway, I kept assuring all my friends and relatives (when asked this past winter about how I liked having a diesel now that the price is so high) that it will come down in the summer - I gave the standard story. The only thing I can come up with right now is this conspiracy theory. Also, I respond that with the increased mpg, I am still ahead compared to the Toyota Sienna. Well, back to work. Christopher --- Royce Engler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Crude oil, unleaded gasoline, heating oil and > natural gas are all traded on > the NYMEX. I did a cursory search to try to find > demand for diesel, but > didn't find it. What leads you to believe that > diesel demand is up? I > would assume that as the economy improves, demand > for all fuels would > increase. > > Refined products can be shipped just like crude oil, > and in fact, since the > US is not building new refineries, it is likely that > refineries built in the > Middle East and other locations will be shipping > significant amounts of > product to the USA at some point. In any case, the > major refining centers > for the US are New Jersey, Norfolk, the Gulf Coast, > and Southern California > (Long Beach). There are others around, but those > are the biggies. Product > pipelines run all across the country and deliver to > local terminals. > Product is also shipped by barge up the Mississippi > and other rivers. > Actual truck transport of product is pretty much > limited to "last mile" > delivery. There is a pretty complicated food chain > of middlemen > (middlepersons?) in between the refiner and the gas > station operator. > > Royce > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of > Christopher McCann > Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 4:29 PM > To: Mercedes mailing list > Subject: RE: [MBZ] price of diesel...interesting > theory... > > > Royce, > > Your first point about the refining process new info > for me, I assumed a fixed percentage of gas, kero, > sludge, whatever came out of every batch. Good > point. > And it might be relevant if we have a high domestic > demand for diesel right now, which I don't think we > do. I would guess such data is available. > > 2nd para - competition for crude misses my point > which > is the DISPARITY in gasoline and diesel > prices...increased demand for crude (which there is > from China, etc) increases fuel in general. I > understand that. International competition for end > product - do people ship tanker loads of diesel and > gasoline around the world? Maybe they do, but seems > like refiniing is LARGELY a local process. > > "oil companies can't any more manipulate the price > of > product than the agribusiness folks can manipulate > the > price of corn flakes." > Which is why ADM got fined millions of dollars for > price fixing a couple years ago. > Kraft used to dump tons of cheese on the market to > force the price of milk down, then buy tons more > milk > to offset the loss on the cheese...until they got > caught about 5 years ago...read up on the Wisoconsin > Cheese Exchange. > Anyway, I know that crude is traded as a commodity - > at various grades - what about the finished product? > Price setting is left to the producer at that point, > it would seem. > > Christopher > > BioD in Germany, not part of my essential argument - > agree. They have an economy of scale on the > production > end (France too, largest consumer of BioD) and I > agree, it's probably taxed less. > > > > > --- Royce Engler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Well, where to begin > > > > True...there are no "diesel refineries", although > > for any given refinery, > > the different trains are optimized for process and > > stream, and changing the > > mix is not exactly trivial. So...if there is an > > unanticipated shift in > > demand, the refiners can be caught making too much > > of one, and not enough of > > another. That's part of the planning process that > > refinery managers go > > through on a regular basis. > > > > "Higher demand" includes a lot of issues. It's > not > > just transportation, > > it's also competition for product and crude from > > other countries (i.e. China > &
RE: [MBZ] price of diesel...interesting theory...
Crude oil, unleaded gasoline, heating oil and natural gas are all traded on the NYMEX. I did a cursory search to try to find demand for diesel, but didn't find it. What leads you to believe that diesel demand is up? I would assume that as the economy improves, demand for all fuels would increase. Refined products can be shipped just like crude oil, and in fact, since the US is not building new refineries, it is likely that refineries built in the Middle East and other locations will be shipping significant amounts of product to the USA at some point. In any case, the major refining centers for the US are New Jersey, Norfolk, the Gulf Coast, and Southern California (Long Beach). There are others around, but those are the biggies. Product pipelines run all across the country and deliver to local terminals. Product is also shipped by barge up the Mississippi and other rivers. Actual truck transport of product is pretty much limited to "last mile" delivery. There is a pretty complicated food chain of middlemen (middlepersons?) in between the refiner and the gas station operator. Royce -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Christopher McCann Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 4:29 PM To: Mercedes mailing list Subject: RE: [MBZ] price of diesel...interesting theory... Royce, Your first point about the refining process new info for me, I assumed a fixed percentage of gas, kero, sludge, whatever came out of every batch. Good point. And it might be relevant if we have a high domestic demand for diesel right now, which I don't think we do. I would guess such data is available. 2nd para - competition for crude misses my point which is the DISPARITY in gasoline and diesel prices...increased demand for crude (which there is from China, etc) increases fuel in general. I understand that. International competition for end product - do people ship tanker loads of diesel and gasoline around the world? Maybe they do, but seems like refiniing is LARGELY a local process. "oil companies can't any more manipulate the price of product than the agribusiness folks can manipulate the price of corn flakes." Which is why ADM got fined millions of dollars for price fixing a couple years ago. Kraft used to dump tons of cheese on the market to force the price of milk down, then buy tons more milk to offset the loss on the cheese...until they got caught about 5 years ago...read up on the Wisoconsin Cheese Exchange. Anyway, I know that crude is traded as a commodity - at various grades - what about the finished product? Price setting is left to the producer at that point, it would seem. Christopher BioD in Germany, not part of my essential argument - agree. They have an economy of scale on the production end (France too, largest consumer of BioD) and I agree, it's probably taxed less. --- Royce Engler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Well, where to begin > > True...there are no "diesel refineries", although > for any given refinery, > the different trains are optimized for process and > stream, and changing the > mix is not exactly trivial. So...if there is an > unanticipated shift in > demand, the refiners can be caught making too much > of one, and not enough of > another. That's part of the planning process that > refinery managers go > through on a regular basis. > > "Higher demand" includes a lot of issues. It's not > just transportation, > it's also competition for product and crude from > other countries (i.e. China > and India) and you won't necessarily see the answer > by looking at one small > part (i.e. increased rail shipping). > > Contrary to popular mythicism, oil companies can't > any more manipulate the > price of product than the agribusiness folks can > manipulate the price of > corn flakes. The price of product is set on the > commodity markets and is > truly a function of supply and demand. > > The low price of BioD in Germany may be a function > of a lot of things > unrelated to the market. Maybe tax advantages for > BioD? > > Royce Engler > 1985 300TD Turbo 265K > > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of > Christopher McCann > Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 11:36 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: [MBZ] price of diesel...interesting > theory... > > > I know these threads get tiring, but I am still in > my > first year of "dieseling" and I recall from this > past > winter the mantra "Diesel is always higher in the > winter because of demand for heating oil. Gas is > higher in the summer becuase of the travel season" > Fall agricultural use also uses alot of diesel it > was > said...can't see, personal
Re: [MBZ] price of diesel...interesting theory...
yes, once something goes up, its VERY hard to get the price down because they know people will pay it, take gas for example, I doubt we ever see it go below 2 a gallon again, much less back to normal at around 1.29 Christopher McCann wrote: Reminds me of a comment my dairy farmer father-in-law made once. When the price he's paid for milk goes up, it goes up in the store. WHen the price he is paid goes down, even substantially over long periods, the price in the store remains the same. Christopher --- BenzBarn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: That's so much bull. I grow corn and right now the price for a bushel is only $2.60 CDN. Do you know how many boxes of corn flakes one bushel can make? If there's anything is this country more out of control it's the price difference paid to producers compared to what consumers pay. There's less than 25 cents worth of corn is a large box that costs over 4 bucks. ___ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] For new parts see www.buymbparts.com For repairs see www.oldworldauto.com To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net Christopher McCann, Raytown, Missouri -1985 300SD, 207K miles, "Wulf" http://don.homelinux.net/mbz/Chris -1976 240D, ManyK miles, "AKP-Wagen" (Alternativen Kraftstoffs Prüfenlastwagen = Alternative Fuel Test Vehicle) -1998 Toyota Sienna CE, 99K miles, "The Van" __ Yahoo! Mail for Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail ___ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] For new parts see www.buymbparts.com For repairs see www.oldworldauto.com To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 89 560SEL, 87 300SDL, 87 300SDL, 85 380SE, 85 300D, 81 300TD, 81 240D, 81 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, 74 240D, 69 250 Okie Benz Auto parts-email for used parts
Re: [MBZ] price of diesel...interesting theory...
sombody is sure getting rich somewhere BenzBarn wrote: That's so much bull. I grow corn and right now the price for a bushel is only $2.60 CDN. Do you know how many boxes of corn flakes one bushel can make? If there's anything is this country more out of control it's the price difference paid to producers compared to what consumers pay. There's less than 25 cents worth of corn is a large box that costs over 4 bucks. ___ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] For new parts see www.buymbparts.com For repairs see www.oldworldauto.com To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 89 560SEL, 87 300SDL, 87 300SDL, 85 380SE, 85 300D, 81 300TD, 81 240D, 81 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, 74 240D, 69 250 Okie Benz Auto parts-email for used parts
Re: [MBZ] price of diesel...interesting theory...
The Law of Oligolopoly; When five or fewer businesses control 50% or more of a market, they behave less like competitors and more like a trust. Competition as a downward pressure on pricing largely goes out the window under this scenario. Lee Christopher McCann wrote: Royce, Your first point about the refining process new info for me, I assumed a fixed percentage of gas, kero, sludge, whatever came out of every batch. Good point. And it might be relevant if we have a high domestic demand for diesel right now, which I don't think we do. I would guess such data is available. 2nd para - competition for crude misses my point which is the DISPARITY in gasoline and diesel prices...increased demand for crude (which there is from China, etc) increases fuel in general. I understand that. International competition for end product - do people ship tanker loads of diesel and gasoline around the world? Maybe they do, but seems like refiniing is LARGELY a local process. "oil companies can't any more manipulate the price of product than the agribusiness folks can manipulate the price of corn flakes." Which is why ADM got fined millions of dollars for price fixing a couple years ago. Kraft used to dump tons of cheese on the market to force the price of milk down, then buy tons more milk to offset the loss on the cheese...until they got caught about 5 years ago...read up on the Wisoconsin Cheese Exchange. Anyway, I know that crude is traded as a commodity - at various grades - what about the finished product? Price setting is left to the producer at that point, it would seem. Christopher BioD in Germany, not part of my essential argument - agree. They have an economy of scale on the production end (France too, largest consumer of BioD) and I agree, it's probably taxed less. --- Royce Engler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Well, where to begin True...there are no "diesel refineries", although for any given refinery, the different trains are optimized for process and stream, and changing the mix is not exactly trivial. So...if there is an unanticipated shift in demand, the refiners can be caught making too much of one, and not enough of another. That's part of the planning process that refinery managers go through on a regular basis. "Higher demand" includes a lot of issues. It's not just transportation, it's also competition for product and crude from other countries (i.e. China and India) and you won't necessarily see the answer by looking at one small part (i.e. increased rail shipping). Contrary to popular mythicism, oil companies can't any more manipulate the price of product than the agribusiness folks can manipulate the price of corn flakes. The price of product is set on the commodity markets and is truly a function of supply and demand. The low price of BioD in Germany may be a function of a lot of things unrelated to the market. Maybe tax advantages for BioD? Royce Engler 1985 300TD Turbo 265K -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Christopher McCann Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 11:36 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [MBZ] price of diesel...interesting theory... I know these threads get tiring, but I am still in my first year of "dieseling" and I recall from this past winter the mantra "Diesel is always higher in the winter because of demand for heating oil. Gas is higher in the summer becuase of the travel season" Fall agricultural use also uses alot of diesel it was said...can't see, personally, how it's more than planting in winter - it should be less. Plow, till, rotovate, plant, cultivate, etc...harvest is nothing in comparison. ANYWAY, What the hell is the story now? From what I know, there are no "diesel refineries", there are oil refineries and all sorts of stuff gets separated out. It can only be two things, it seems: 1. Higher demand. Well, I doubt that as train shipping has jumped substantially (this happens in uncertain economic times and confirmed by my friend who works for one of the big rail freight lines) and trains use ALOT less diesel to move the same freight as trucks would. Is trucking up so much to offset this and create higher demand? 2. Conspiracy (unproveable speculation here). The oil companies remember that the '70's oil crisis caused a jump in the sale of diesel vehicles. It's happening again. Many new diesel models introduced. Front cover of local car mag advertized the diesel Passat Wagon at 30-whatever mpg, etc. Fed gov just passed a $4,000 (!) tax credit for the purchase of a new diesel vehicle. The oil co's didn't care in the 70's/80's as they sold gas and diesel. WHAT IS DIFFERENT NOW is that BioD is becoming increasingly popular (log way to go, but no doubt it is happening). I am wondering if they are not keeping the cost high to DISSUADE the purchase of diesel vehicles which in a few years might be able to fill up on BioD for less than dinoD, which will mean $0 from THAT customer to
RE: [MBZ] price of diesel...interesting theory...
Royce, Your first point about the refining process new info for me, I assumed a fixed percentage of gas, kero, sludge, whatever came out of every batch. Good point. And it might be relevant if we have a high domestic demand for diesel right now, which I don't think we do. I would guess such data is available. 2nd para - competition for crude misses my point which is the DISPARITY in gasoline and diesel prices...increased demand for crude (which there is from China, etc) increases fuel in general. I understand that. International competition for end product - do people ship tanker loads of diesel and gasoline around the world? Maybe they do, but seems like refiniing is LARGELY a local process. "oil companies can't any more manipulate the price of product than the agribusiness folks can manipulate the price of corn flakes." Which is why ADM got fined millions of dollars for price fixing a couple years ago. Kraft used to dump tons of cheese on the market to force the price of milk down, then buy tons more milk to offset the loss on the cheese...until they got caught about 5 years ago...read up on the Wisoconsin Cheese Exchange. Anyway, I know that crude is traded as a commodity - at various grades - what about the finished product? Price setting is left to the producer at that point, it would seem. Christopher BioD in Germany, not part of my essential argument - agree. They have an economy of scale on the production end (France too, largest consumer of BioD) and I agree, it's probably taxed less. --- Royce Engler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Well, where to begin > > True...there are no "diesel refineries", although > for any given refinery, > the different trains are optimized for process and > stream, and changing the > mix is not exactly trivial. So...if there is an > unanticipated shift in > demand, the refiners can be caught making too much > of one, and not enough of > another. That's part of the planning process that > refinery managers go > through on a regular basis. > > "Higher demand" includes a lot of issues. It's not > just transportation, > it's also competition for product and crude from > other countries (i.e. China > and India) and you won't necessarily see the answer > by looking at one small > part (i.e. increased rail shipping). > > Contrary to popular mythicism, oil companies can't > any more manipulate the > price of product than the agribusiness folks can > manipulate the price of > corn flakes. The price of product is set on the > commodity markets and is > truly a function of supply and demand. > > The low price of BioD in Germany may be a function > of a lot of things > unrelated to the market. Maybe tax advantages for > BioD? > > Royce Engler > 1985 300TD Turbo 265K > > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of > Christopher McCann > Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 11:36 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: [MBZ] price of diesel...interesting > theory... > > > I know these threads get tiring, but I am still in > my > first year of "dieseling" and I recall from this > past > winter the mantra "Diesel is always higher in the > winter because of demand for heating oil. Gas is > higher in the summer becuase of the travel season" > Fall agricultural use also uses alot of diesel it > was > said...can't see, personally, how it's more than > planting in winter - it should be less. Plow, till, > rotovate, plant, cultivate, etc...harvest is nothing > in comparison. > > ANYWAY, What the hell is the story now? > > >From what I know, there are no "diesel refineries", > there are oil refineries and all sorts of stuff gets > separated out. It can only be two things, it seems: > 1. Higher demand. Well, I doubt that as train > shipping > has jumped substantially (this happens in uncertain > economic times and confirmed by my friend who works > for one of the big rail freight lines) and trains > use > ALOT less diesel to move the same freight as trucks > would. Is trucking up so much to offset this and > create higher demand? > 2. Conspiracy (unproveable speculation here). The > oil > companies remember that the '70's oil crisis caused > a > jump in the sale of diesel vehicles. It's happening > again. Many new diesel models introduced. Front > cover > of local car mag advertized the diesel Passat Wagon > at > 30-whatever mpg, etc. Fed gov just passed a $4,000 > (!) > tax credit for the purchase of a new diesel vehicle. > > The oil co's didn't care in the 70's/80's as they > sold > gas and diesel. WHAT IS DIFFERENT NOW is that BioD > is > becoming increasingly popular (log way to go, but no > doubt it is happening). I am wondering if they are > not > keeping the cost high to DISSUADE the purchase of > diesel vehicles which in a few years might be able > to > fill up on BioD for less than dinoD, which will mean > $0 from THAT customer to big oil (unless they are in > the BioD game too (I would be if I were them)). > > In
Re: [MBZ] price of diesel...interesting theory...
Same with oil. The refiners are making windfall profits. The future price of a barrel of crude goes up on a the market at noon, by two the price of fuel at the pump has gone up. We the consumers are hostage to the monopoly so we pay up. The price of fuel goes to $2.50 then drops to $2.30 and we think we are getting a bargain. Then the price of fuel goes to $2.70 and drops to $2.50 and again we think we are getting a deal. The actual cost of the fuel we are using now was probably $40 a barrel. Eventually, this should bring about inflation or the perception of inflation, causing interest rates to rise. Which will depress the economy even further. Enough doom and gloom. Back to diesel content... Rick Knoble 1985 300 CD - Original Message - From: "Christopher McCann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Mercedes mailing list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 3:53 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] price of diesel...interesting theory... > Reminds me of a comment my dairy farmer father-in-law > made once. When the price he's paid for milk goes up, > it goes up in the store. WHen the price he is paid > goes down, even substantially over long periods, the > price in the store remains the same. > > Christopher > > --- BenzBarn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > That's so much bull. > > > > I grow corn and right now the price for a bushel is > > only $2.60 CDN. Do you > > know how many boxes of corn flakes one bushel can > > make? > > > > If there's anything is this country more out of > > control it's the price > > difference paid to producers compared to what > > consumers pay. There's less > > than 25 cents worth of corn is a large box that > > costs over 4 bucks. > > > > > > ___ > > For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > For new parts see www.buymbparts.com > > For repairs see www.oldworldauto.com > > > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > > > http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net > > > > > Christopher McCann, Raytown, Missouri > -1985 300SD, 207K miles, "Wulf" http://don.homelinux.net/mbz/Chris > -1976 240D, ManyK miles, "AKP-Wagen" (Alternativen Kraftstoffs Prüfenlastwagen = Alternative Fuel Test Vehicle) > -1998 Toyota Sienna CE, 99K miles, "The Van" > > > > __ > Yahoo! Mail for Mobile > Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail > > ___ > For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For new parts see www.buymbparts.com > For repairs see www.oldworldauto.com > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net >
Re: [MBZ] price of diesel...interesting theory...
Reminds me of a comment my dairy farmer father-in-law made once. When the price he's paid for milk goes up, it goes up in the store. WHen the price he is paid goes down, even substantially over long periods, the price in the store remains the same. Christopher --- BenzBarn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > That's so much bull. > > I grow corn and right now the price for a bushel is > only $2.60 CDN. Do you > know how many boxes of corn flakes one bushel can > make? > > If there's anything is this country more out of > control it's the price > difference paid to producers compared to what > consumers pay. There's less > than 25 cents worth of corn is a large box that > costs over 4 bucks. > > > ___ > For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For new parts see www.buymbparts.com > For repairs see www.oldworldauto.com > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net > Christopher McCann, Raytown, Missouri -1985 300SD, 207K miles, "Wulf" http://don.homelinux.net/mbz/Chris -1976 240D, ManyK miles, "AKP-Wagen" (Alternativen Kraftstoffs Prüfenlastwagen = Alternative Fuel Test Vehicle) -1998 Toyota Sienna CE, 99K miles, "The Van" __ Yahoo! Mail for Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail
Re: [MBZ] price of diesel...interesting theory...
That's so much bull. I grow corn and right now the price for a bushel is only $2.60 CDN. Do you know how many boxes of corn flakes one bushel can make? If there's anything is this country more out of control it's the price difference paid to producers compared to what consumers pay. There's less than 25 cents worth of corn is a large box that costs over 4 bucks.
Re: [MBZ] price of diesel...interesting theory...
Its insane diesel just jumped up to 2.25 overnight and 2.15 for gas from 2.18 for diesel and 2.03 for gas. WTF??? Christopher McCann wrote: I know these threads get tiring, but I am still in my first year of "dieseling" and I recall from this past winter the mantra "Diesel is always higher in the winter because of demand for heating oil. Gas is higher in the summer becuase of the travel season" Fall agricultural use also uses alot of diesel it was said...can't see, personally, how it's more than planting in winter - it should be less. Plow, till, rotovate, plant, cultivate, etc...harvest is nothing in comparison. ANYWAY, What the hell is the story now? From what I know, there are no "diesel refineries", there are oil refineries and all sorts of stuff gets separated out. It can only be two things, it seems: 1. Higher demand. Well, I doubt that as train shipping has jumped substantially (this happens in uncertain economic times and confirmed by my friend who works for one of the big rail freight lines) and trains use ALOT less diesel to move the same freight as trucks would. Is trucking up so much to offset this and create higher demand? 2. Conspiracy (unproveable speculation here). The oil companies remember that the '70's oil crisis caused a jump in the sale of diesel vehicles. It's happening again. Many new diesel models introduced. Front cover of local car mag advertized the diesel Passat Wagon at 30-whatever mpg, etc. Fed gov just passed a $4,000 (!) tax credit for the purchase of a new diesel vehicle. The oil co's didn't care in the 70's/80's as they sold gas and diesel. WHAT IS DIFFERENT NOW is that BioD is becoming increasingly popular (log way to go, but no doubt it is happening). I am wondering if they are not keeping the cost high to DISSUADE the purchase of diesel vehicles which in a few years might be able to fill up on BioD for less than dinoD, which will mean $0 from THAT customer to big oil (unless they are in the BioD game too (I would be if I were them)). In Germany BioD is the CHEAPEST fuel available...so with economy of scale, price will come way down. (Euro fuels are so high becuase they are about 70% tax). Thoughts on the conspiracy theory? P.S. THe old 240D (new to me) is working great. Fun...going from the SD to it is like driving a Mercedes go-cart...peppier than I thought (W115 might be the reason). Thanks. Christopher McCann, Raytown, Missouri -1985 300SD, 207K miles, "Wulf" http://don.homelinux.net/mbz/Chris -1976 240D, ManyK miles, "AKP-Wagen" (Alternativen Kraftstoffs Prüfenlastwagen = Alternative Fuel Test Vehicle) -1998 Toyota Sienna CE, 99K miles, "The Van" __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] For new parts see www.buymbparts.com For repairs see www.oldworldauto.com To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 89 560SEL, 87 300SDL, 87 300SDL, 85 380SE, 85 300D, 81 300TD, 81 240D, 81 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, 74 240D, 69 250 Okie Benz Auto parts-email for used parts
RE: [MBZ] price of diesel...interesting theory...
Well, where to begin True...there are no "diesel refineries", although for any given refinery, the different trains are optimized for process and stream, and changing the mix is not exactly trivial. So...if there is an unanticipated shift in demand, the refiners can be caught making too much of one, and not enough of another. That's part of the planning process that refinery managers go through on a regular basis. "Higher demand" includes a lot of issues. It's not just transportation, it's also competition for product and crude from other countries (i.e. China and India) and you won't necessarily see the answer by looking at one small part (i.e. increased rail shipping). Contrary to popular mythicism, oil companies can't any more manipulate the price of product than the agribusiness folks can manipulate the price of corn flakes. The price of product is set on the commodity markets and is truly a function of supply and demand. The low price of BioD in Germany may be a function of a lot of things unrelated to the market. Maybe tax advantages for BioD? Royce Engler 1985 300TD Turbo 265K -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Christopher McCann Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 11:36 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [MBZ] price of diesel...interesting theory... I know these threads get tiring, but I am still in my first year of "dieseling" and I recall from this past winter the mantra "Diesel is always higher in the winter because of demand for heating oil. Gas is higher in the summer becuase of the travel season" Fall agricultural use also uses alot of diesel it was said...can't see, personally, how it's more than planting in winter - it should be less. Plow, till, rotovate, plant, cultivate, etc...harvest is nothing in comparison. ANYWAY, What the hell is the story now? >From what I know, there are no "diesel refineries", there are oil refineries and all sorts of stuff gets separated out. It can only be two things, it seems: 1. Higher demand. Well, I doubt that as train shipping has jumped substantially (this happens in uncertain economic times and confirmed by my friend who works for one of the big rail freight lines) and trains use ALOT less diesel to move the same freight as trucks would. Is trucking up so much to offset this and create higher demand? 2. Conspiracy (unproveable speculation here). The oil companies remember that the '70's oil crisis caused a jump in the sale of diesel vehicles. It's happening again. Many new diesel models introduced. Front cover of local car mag advertized the diesel Passat Wagon at 30-whatever mpg, etc. Fed gov just passed a $4,000 (!) tax credit for the purchase of a new diesel vehicle. The oil co's didn't care in the 70's/80's as they sold gas and diesel. WHAT IS DIFFERENT NOW is that BioD is becoming increasingly popular (log way to go, but no doubt it is happening). I am wondering if they are not keeping the cost high to DISSUADE the purchase of diesel vehicles which in a few years might be able to fill up on BioD for less than dinoD, which will mean $0 from THAT customer to big oil (unless they are in the BioD game too (I would be if I were them)). In Germany BioD is the CHEAPEST fuel available...so with economy of scale, price will come way down. (Euro fuels are so high becuase they are about 70% tax). Thoughts on the conspiracy theory? P.S. THe old 240D (new to me) is working great. Fun...going from the SD to it is like driving a Mercedes go-cart...peppier than I thought (W115 might be the reason). Thanks. Christopher McCann, Raytown, Missouri -1985 300SD, 207K miles, "Wulf" http://don.homelinux.net/mbz/Chris -1976 240D, ManyK miles, "AKP-Wagen" (Alternativen Kraftstoffs Prüfenlastwagen = Alternative Fuel Test Vehicle) -1998 Toyota Sienna CE, 99K miles, "The Van" __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] For new parts see www.buymbparts.com For repairs see www.oldworldauto.com To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net
