Re: [MBZ] I think I need this

[Buggered Benzmail via Mercedes]

Could be useful 

--FT
Sent from iFōn

> On Oct 7, 2023, at 2:42 PM, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/866118097938673/?mibextid=6ojiHh
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [MBZ] I think I need this

[dan penoff.com via Mercedes]

Perfect for Mrs. Kleb for hauling her TastyKakes or whatever they are.

-D

> On Oct 7, 2023, at 2:42 PM, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/866118097938673/?mibextid=6ojiHh
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
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Re: [MBZ] I think I need this

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

Nor are we...

On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 9:52 AM, Rich Thomas via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> But I'm not entirely sure why
>
> https://truckyeah.jalopnik.com/the-top-speed-of-a-mercedes-
> unimogs-super-crawler-gear-1797869370
>
> --R
>
>
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>
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Re: [MBZ] I think I need this

[OK Don]

PND = Personal Navigation Device?

OK Don, whose PND in the Cessna brought us from 120 miles out to ringt over
the center of the home runway - we were impressed, given that it is one of
the least expensive available.
On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 1:28 PM, Craig  wrote:

>
> >
> > This is one huge advantage over the PND dash-top units that rely only on
> > GPS.
>
> PND?
>
> Craig



-- 
OK Don
2013 F150, 19 mpg
2012 Passat TDI DSG, 45 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
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Re: [MBZ] I think I need this

[Craig]

On Mon, 1 Jul 2013 11:06:47 -0400 Jaime Kopchinski 
wrote:

> You caught the biggest issue here, Tim... if you have visible sun, you
> almost certainly have visibility to at least a few GPS satellites.
> 
> But generally, in car navigation uses three things for positioning:
> GPS, Wheel speed, and a gyroscope.  Between these there, positioning is
> very accurate even in challenging situations like in tunnels, inner
> city, etc. Even without GPS signal, a well calibrated system will keep
> its position very well for a long time.
> 
> This is one huge advantage over the PND dash-top units that rely only on
> GPS.

PND?


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] I think I need this

[Alex Chamberlain]

On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 9:13 AM, WILTON  wrote:

> Course, in an earth-bound vehicle, one can usually look out the window at
> a known object/address and get a Fix - sometimes not possible if ya don't
> recognize what you're seeing.   ;<)
>
>
Hence the fun of http://geoguessr.com/ ...

Alex
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Re: [MBZ] I think I need this

[WILTON]

Yep; gyro makes course a little more accurate.

Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: "Tim Crone" 

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Monday, July 01, 2013 10:56 AM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] I think I need this



On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 10:52 AM, Tim Crone  wrote:



Seems like it would be trivial to calculate, from light monitoring, which
direction the car is turning; you still know speed and time, so it seems
like it would be fairly simple to calculate a reasonably accurate course.



And -that- said, why not just use a compass and gyroscope?  You've got
initial location, speed, direction, seems like you could figure out
elevation changes.  Of course if you always know where you are then the 
GPS

is just a check anyway. :)

Best,
-Tim
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Re: [MBZ] I think I need this

[WILTON]

That's right; that's good DR'ing - ded reckoning; gives you Probable 
Position (PP); add a sun line to it and you get a Most Probable Position 
(MP - a little better than just DR), but still not a Fix (known position). 
Cross a sun line with a bearing from another object of known location (star 
or earth-bound object) and one can get a Fix (know position).  Course, in an 
earth-bound vehicle, one can usually look out the window at a known 
object/address and get a Fix - sometimes not possible if ya don't recognize 
what you're seeing.   ;<)


Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: "Tim Crone" 

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Monday, July 01, 2013 10:52 AM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] I think I need this



On Sun, Jun 30, 2013 at 11:19 AM, Mitch Haley  wrote:


WILTON wrote:


OK, I saw the key two words the second time I read it - "in part."  Sun
can give you only ONE "line of positions" (LOP) - a huge circle on the
earth; ya gotta know about where ya are for this info to be any good, i. 
e.

- dead reckoning (RD), for example - projecting info from last known
position to reckon/guess present position.  Using old info plus sun LOP,
you can reckon/guess a "most probable position" MPP - lot better than
nothing and is "neat," anyway - handheld astrotracker.  Now, if it could
track stars --. ;<)



Well, if you know the time, date, and position of the sun...
I can imagine the car knowing the time and date to some fraction of a
second, but would it know the angle of the sun well enough to locate 
itself

within 200 miles or so?



When you lose your GPS signal, you:
- know where you are "right now", including time, trajectory, and speed
- know where the sun is, including which direction it is
- know what time it is and where the sun is headed relative to your exact
location

Seems like it would be trivial to calculate, from light monitoring, which
direction the car is turning; you still know speed and time, so it seems
like it would be fairly simple to calculate a reasonably accurate course.

That said I've never lost GPS when I was in a place where the sun was
visible.

Best,
Tim
no LORAN in cars?
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Re: [MBZ] I think I need this

[Alex Chamberlain]

On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 8:35 AM, Jim Cathey  wrote:

> --R  (wherever you go, there you are!)
>>
>
> No, no, no, don't tug on that!
>
>
You never know what it might be attached to...
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Re: [MBZ] I think I need this

[Jim Cathey]

--R  (wherever you go, there you are!)


No, no, no, don't tug on that!

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] I think I need this

[Rich Thomas]

I always know where I am, sometimes just not in relation to some other place

--R  (wherever you go, there you are!)

On 7/1/13 11:06 AM, Jaime Kopchinski wrote:

You caught the biggest issue here, Tim... if you have visible sun, you
almost certainly have visibility to at least a few GPS satellites.

But generally, in car navigation uses three things for positioning:  GPS,
Wheel speed, and a gyroscope.  Between these there, positioning is very
accurate even in challenging situations like in tunnels, inner city, etc.
Even without GPS signal, a well calibrated system will keep its position
very well for a long time.

This is one huge advantage over the PND dash-top units that rely only on
GPS.

Jaime



On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 10:52 AM, Tim Crone  wrote:


On Sun, Jun 30, 2013 at 11:19 AM, Mitch Haley  wrote:


WILTON wrote:


OK, I saw the key two words the second time I read it - "in part."  Sun
can give you only ONE "line of positions" (LOP) - a huge circle on the
earth; ya gotta know about where ya are for this info to be any good,

i. e.

- dead reckoning (RD), for example - projecting info from last known
position to reckon/guess present position.  Using old info plus sun LOP,
you can reckon/guess a "most probable position" MPP - lot better than
nothing and is "neat," anyway - handheld astrotracker.  Now, if it could
track stars --. ;<)


Well, if you know the time, date, and position of the sun...
I can imagine the car knowing the time and date to some fraction of a
second, but would it know the angle of the sun well enough to locate

itself

within 200 miles or so?


When you lose your GPS signal, you:
  - know where you are "right now", including time, trajectory, and speed
  - know where the sun is, including which direction it is
  - know what time it is and where the sun is headed relative to your exact
location

Seems like it would be trivial to calculate, from light monitoring, which
direction the car is turning; you still know speed and time, so it seems
like it would be fairly simple to calculate a reasonably accurate course.

That said I've never lost GPS when I was in a place where the sun was
visible.

Best,
Tim
no LORAN in cars?
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Re: [MBZ] I think I need this

[Jaime Kopchinski]

You caught the biggest issue here, Tim... if you have visible sun, you
almost certainly have visibility to at least a few GPS satellites.

But generally, in car navigation uses three things for positioning:  GPS,
Wheel speed, and a gyroscope.  Between these there, positioning is very
accurate even in challenging situations like in tunnels, inner city, etc.
Even without GPS signal, a well calibrated system will keep its position
very well for a long time.

This is one huge advantage over the PND dash-top units that rely only on
GPS.

Jaime



On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 10:52 AM, Tim Crone  wrote:

> On Sun, Jun 30, 2013 at 11:19 AM, Mitch Haley  wrote:
>
> > WILTON wrote:
> >
> >> OK, I saw the key two words the second time I read it - "in part."  Sun
> >> can give you only ONE "line of positions" (LOP) - a huge circle on the
> >> earth; ya gotta know about where ya are for this info to be any good,
> i. e.
> >> - dead reckoning (RD), for example - projecting info from last known
> >> position to reckon/guess present position.  Using old info plus sun LOP,
> >> you can reckon/guess a "most probable position" MPP - lot better than
> >> nothing and is "neat," anyway - handheld astrotracker.  Now, if it could
> >> track stars --. ;<)
> >>
> >
> > Well, if you know the time, date, and position of the sun...
> > I can imagine the car knowing the time and date to some fraction of a
> > second, but would it know the angle of the sun well enough to locate
> itself
> > within 200 miles or so?
>
>
> When you lose your GPS signal, you:
>  - know where you are "right now", including time, trajectory, and speed
>  - know where the sun is, including which direction it is
>  - know what time it is and where the sun is headed relative to your exact
> location
>
> Seems like it would be trivial to calculate, from light monitoring, which
> direction the car is turning; you still know speed and time, so it seems
> like it would be fairly simple to calculate a reasonably accurate course.
>
> That said I've never lost GPS when I was in a place where the sun was
> visible.
>
> Best,
> Tim
> no LORAN in cars?
> ___
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-- 
Jaime Kopchinski
http://www.jaimekop.com/
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Re: [MBZ] I think I need this

[Mitch Haley]

Tim Crone wrote:


That said I've never lost GPS when I was in a place where the sun was
visible.


Bingo! GPS and sun position are both line of sight.

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] I think I need this

[Tim Crone]

On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 10:52 AM, Tim Crone  wrote:

>
> Seems like it would be trivial to calculate, from light monitoring, which
> direction the car is turning; you still know speed and time, so it seems
> like it would be fairly simple to calculate a reasonably accurate course.
>

And -that- said, why not just use a compass and gyroscope?  You've got
initial location, speed, direction, seems like you could figure out
elevation changes.  Of course if you always know where you are then the GPS
is just a check anyway. :)

Best,
-Tim
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Re: [MBZ] I think I need this

[Tim Crone]

On Sun, Jun 30, 2013 at 11:19 AM, Mitch Haley  wrote:

> WILTON wrote:
>
>> OK, I saw the key two words the second time I read it - "in part."  Sun
>> can give you only ONE "line of positions" (LOP) - a huge circle on the
>> earth; ya gotta know about where ya are for this info to be any good, i. e.
>> - dead reckoning (RD), for example - projecting info from last known
>> position to reckon/guess present position.  Using old info plus sun LOP,
>> you can reckon/guess a "most probable position" MPP - lot better than
>> nothing and is "neat," anyway - handheld astrotracker.  Now, if it could
>> track stars --. ;<)
>>
>
> Well, if you know the time, date, and position of the sun...
> I can imagine the car knowing the time and date to some fraction of a
> second, but would it know the angle of the sun well enough to locate itself
> within 200 miles or so?


When you lose your GPS signal, you:
 - know where you are "right now", including time, trajectory, and speed
 - know where the sun is, including which direction it is
 - know what time it is and where the sun is headed relative to your exact
location

Seems like it would be trivial to calculate, from light monitoring, which
direction the car is turning; you still know speed and time, so it seems
like it would be fairly simple to calculate a reasonably accurate course.

That said I've never lost GPS when I was in a place where the sun was
visible.

Best,
Tim
no LORAN in cars?
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Re: [MBZ] I think I need this

[Rich Thomas]

On their facebook posting the other day

--R

On 6/30/13 6:56 PM, Jaime Kopchinski wrote:

Did you make this up or did they really write that somewhere?!

Jaime



On Sun, Jun 30, 2013 at 10:27 AM, Rich Thomas <
richthomas79td...@constructivity.net> wrote:


  If it can't pick up a GPS signal, the all-new S-Class can
  actually determine where it is based in part on the sun's
  position in the sky. Now that's a bright idea.

  Learn more in our S-Class app: http://shout.lt/h1hs


--R

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Re: [MBZ] I think I need this

[Jaime Kopchinski]

Did you make this up or did they really write that somewhere?!

Jaime



On Sun, Jun 30, 2013 at 10:27 AM, Rich Thomas <
richthomas79td...@constructivity.net> wrote:

>
>  If it can't pick up a GPS signal, the all-new S-Class can
>  actually determine where it is based in part on the sun's
>  position in the sky. Now that's a bright idea.
>
>  Learn more in our S-Class app: http://shout.lt/h1hs
>
>
> --R
>
> __**_
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
> To search list archives 
> http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.com
>



-- 
Jaime Kopchinski
http://www.jaimekop.com/
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Re: [MBZ] I think I need this

[Jaime Kopchinski]

Um... no.


On Sun, Jun 30, 2013 at 10:27 AM, Rich Thomas <
richthomas79td...@constructivity.net> wrote:

>
>  If it can't pick up a GPS signal, the all-new S-Class can
>  actually determine where it is based in part on the sun's
>  position in the sky. Now that's a bright idea.
>
>  Learn more in our S-Class app: http://shout.lt/h1hs
>
>
> --R
>
> __**_
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
> To search list archives 
> http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.com
>



-- 
Jaime Kopchinski
http://www.jaimekop.com/
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Re: [MBZ] I think I need this

[WILTON]

Yes.

Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: "Mitch Haley" 

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2013 11:19 AM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] I think I need this



WILTON wrote:
OK, I saw the key two words the second time I read it - "in part."  Sun 
can give you only ONE "line of positions" (LOP) - a huge circle on the 
earth; ya gotta know about where ya are for this info to be any good, i. 
e. - dead reckoning (RD), for example - projecting info from last known 
position to reckon/guess present position.  Using old info plus sun LOP, 
you can reckon/guess a "most probable position" MPP - lot better than 
nothing and is "neat," anyway - handheld astrotracker.  Now, if it could 
track stars --. ;<)


Well, if you know the time, date, and position of the sun...
I can imagine the car knowing the time and date to some fraction of a 
second, but would it know the angle of the sun well enough to locate 
itself within 200 miles or so?


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] I think I need this

[WILTON]

Just downloaded sun surveyor lite (free), one of 22 apps -others up to $20, 
etc.  Shows position of sun based on PP (present position).  Easy for it to 
do inverse based on possible position - info since last fix (known 
position).


Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: "WILTON" 

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2013 11:11 AM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] I think I need this


Well, I MEANT "dead reckoning (DR)."  It really comes from "deduction" 
reckoning and should be "ded" reckoning,  but "everybody" calls it "dead," 
and, of course, it nearly is with all of the equipment these days carrying 
a "running" fix.  ;<)


Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: "WILTON" 

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2013 11:05 AM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] I think I need this


OK, I saw the key two words the second time I read it - "in part."  Sun 
can give you only ONE "line of positions" (LOP) - a huge circle on the 
earth; ya gotta know about where ya are for this info to be any good, i. 
e. - dead reckoning (RD), for example - projecting info from last known 
position to reckon/guess present position.  Using old info plus sun LOP, 
you can reckon/guess a "most probable position" MPP - lot better than 
nothing and is "neat," anyway - handheld astrotracker.  Now, if it could 
track stars --. ;<)


Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: "Rich Thomas" 

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2013 10:27 AM
Subject: [MBZ] I think I need this




 If it can't pick up a GPS signal, the all-new S-Class can
 actually determine where it is based in part on the sun's
 position in the sky. Now that's a bright idea.

 Learn more in our S-Class app: http://shout.lt/h1hs


--R

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Re: [MBZ] I think I need this

[Mitch Haley]

WILTON wrote:
OK, I saw the key two words the second time I read it - "in part."  Sun 
can give you only ONE "line of positions" (LOP) - a huge circle on the 
earth; ya gotta know about where ya are for this info to be any good, i. 
e. - dead reckoning (RD), for example - projecting info from last known 
position to reckon/guess present position.  Using old info plus sun LOP, 
you can reckon/guess a "most probable position" MPP - lot better than 
nothing and is "neat," anyway - handheld astrotracker.  Now, if it could 
track stars --. ;<)


Well, if you know the time, date, and position of the sun...
I can imagine the car knowing the time and date to some fraction of a second, 
but would it know the angle of the sun well enough to locate itself within 200 
miles or so?


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] I think I need this

[WILTON]

'Can't get site to open.  'Wonder if I can find the app?

Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: "Rich Thomas" 

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2013 10:27 AM
Subject: [MBZ] I think I need this




 If it can't pick up a GPS signal, the all-new S-Class can
 actually determine where it is based in part on the sun's
 position in the sky. Now that's a bright idea.

 Learn more in our S-Class app: http://shout.lt/h1hs


--R

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Re: [MBZ] I think I need this

[WILTON]

Well, I MEANT "dead reckoning (DR)."  It really comes from "deduction" 
reckoning and should be "ded" reckoning,  but "everybody" calls it "dead," 
and, of course, it nearly is with all of the equipment these days carrying a 
"running" fix.  ;<)


Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: "WILTON" 

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2013 11:05 AM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] I think I need this


OK, I saw the key two words the second time I read it - "in part."  Sun 
can give you only ONE "line of positions" (LOP) - a huge circle on the 
earth; ya gotta know about where ya are for this info to be any good, i. 
e. - dead reckoning (RD), for example - projecting info from last known 
position to reckon/guess present position.  Using old info plus sun LOP, 
you can reckon/guess a "most probable position" MPP - lot better than 
nothing and is "neat," anyway - handheld astrotracker.  Now, if it could 
track stars --. ;<)


Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: "Rich Thomas" 

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2013 10:27 AM
Subject: [MBZ] I think I need this




 If it can't pick up a GPS signal, the all-new S-Class can
 actually determine where it is based in part on the sun's
 position in the sky. Now that's a bright idea.

 Learn more in our S-Class app: http://shout.lt/h1hs


--R

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Re: [MBZ] I think I need this

[WILTON]

OK, I saw the key two words the second time I read it - "in part."  Sun can 
give you only ONE "line of positions" (LOP) - a huge circle on the earth; ya 
gotta know about where ya are for this info to be any good, i. e. - dead 
reckoning (RD), for example - projecting info from last known position to 
reckon/guess present position.  Using old info plus sun LOP, you can 
reckon/guess a "most probable position" MPP - lot better than nothing and is 
"neat," anyway - handheld astrotracker.  Now, if it could track stars --. 
;<)


Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: "Rich Thomas" 

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2013 10:27 AM
Subject: [MBZ] I think I need this




 If it can't pick up a GPS signal, the all-new S-Class can
 actually determine where it is based in part on the sun's
 position in the sky. Now that's a bright idea.

 Learn more in our S-Class app: http://shout.lt/h1hs


--R

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