Re: [MBZ] Volt Owner
I could easily justify such a vehicle, as I drive roughly 36 miles round trip daily, about 50-50 surface street and highway. Once the car comes home it's pretty well parked for the night. If they can ever get the technology to a reasonable price and reliable I would do it. For now it just doesn't make a lot of economic sense. Dan On Feb 29, 2012, at 12:58 PM, Curt Raymond wrote: > It depends. Up here we've got lots of couples that really bought into the > "Bigger is better" and have a pair of BIIIG SUVs, like Suburbans or > Excursions with the BG V8 and 10mpg fuel economy. Some of those people > commute 100+ miles a day like I do. > > > For them changing to a small car like a Ford Fiesta at 40mpg and lowered tax > and insurance makes good sense, especially if they were in for a new car > anyway. > > > BTW I had a Ford Fiesta as a rental a couple weeks ago. Its actually a fairly > nice car, not super cheap/rattley like the Fiesta of old. Plenty of power to > hold it own in LA traffic. The transmission on the one I had had a wicked > flair at each shift but I bet thats just a rental with 15,000 miles on it... > > -Curt > > > > Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 08:26:25 -0500 > From: Allan Streib > To: Mercedes Discussion List > Subject: Re: [MBZ] Volt Owner > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Curt Raymond writes: > >> Isn't it amazing to see how fuel economy has become the big story >> lately? Its always the "New 30mpg super-whatever" now rather than the >> "3000hp super-whatever" that it was 2 years ago. >> >> I think that the new hybrids/electric/whatevers helping push higher >> efficiency in regular gas cars. Well I suppose $3.50/gal gas helps >> that too. > > It's just the latest marketing spin. Even at $3.50 a gallon, most > people are better off with a cheaper used car or (especially) continuing > to drive a paid-off old car than they are getting a new car, even one with a > high MPG rating. And the cars with really good fuel economy come with > severe compromises on size and utility. > > Unless you drive a lot of miles, the fuel costs savings of a new > "economical" car are not going to make up for the additional expenses. > > Allan > > -- > 1983 300D > 1979 300SD > > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt Owner
It depends. Up here we've got lots of couples that really bought into the "Bigger is better" and have a pair of BIIIG SUVs, like Suburbans or Excursions with the BG V8 and 10mpg fuel economy. Some of those people commute 100+ miles a day like I do. For them changing to a small car like a Ford Fiesta at 40mpg and lowered tax and insurance makes good sense, especially if they were in for a new car anyway. BTW I had a Ford Fiesta as a rental a couple weeks ago. Its actually a fairly nice car, not super cheap/rattley like the Fiesta of old. Plenty of power to hold it own in LA traffic. The transmission on the one I had had a wicked flair at each shift but I bet thats just a rental with 15,000 miles on it... -Curt Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 08:26:25 -0500 From: Allan Streib To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Volt Owner Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Curt Raymond writes: > Isn't it amazing to see how fuel economy has become the big story > lately? Its always the "New 30mpg super-whatever" now rather than the > "3000hp super-whatever" that it was 2 years ago. > > I think that the new hybrids/electric/whatevers helping push higher > efficiency in regular gas cars. Well I suppose $3.50/gal gas helps > that too. It's just the latest marketing spin. Even at $3.50 a gallon, most people are better off with a cheaper used car or (especially) continuing to drive a paid-off old car than they are getting a new car, even one with a high MPG rating. And the cars with really good fuel economy come with severe compromises on size and utility. Unless you drive a lot of miles, the fuel costs savings of a new "economical" car are not going to make up for the additional expenses. Allan -- 1983 300D 1979 300SD ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt Owner
Curt Raymond writes: > Isn't it amazing to see how fuel economy has become the big story > lately? Its always the "New 30mpg super-whatever" now rather than the > "3000hp super-whatever" that it was 2 years ago. > > I think that the new hybrids/electric/whatevers helping push higher > efficiency in regular gas cars. Well I suppose $3.50/gal gas helps > that too. It's just the latest marketing spin. Even at $3.50 a gallon, most people are better off with a cheaper used car or (especially) continuing to drive a paid-off old car than they are getting a new car, even one with a high MPG rating. And the cars with really good fuel economy come with severe compromises on size and utility. Unless you drive a lot of miles, the fuel costs savings of a new "economical" car are not going to make up for the additional expenses. Allan -- 1983 300D 1979 300SD ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt Owner with electric shock absorbers
I actually had a thought the other day, would it be possible to harness the energy that is produced by shock absorbers to charge the batteries? Hang on, already done and dusted http://www.technologyreview.in/energy/25274/ Hendrik who is always thinking On 27/02/12 08:39, Jim Cathey wrote: I think the serial hybrid, like a Diesel/electric locomotive, is the way to go - you get the effeciency of the electric drive train, and the freedom form the grid to travel cross country. I like the design of the Volt - they did a good job of managing the two poer sources. The recharger should be a paint-can-sized turbine. http://userweb.windwireless.net/~jimc/hybrids.html#REV -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt Owner
Wouldn't that be acting like an oil cartel? Sent from my iPhone On Feb 26, 2012, at 1:58 PM, Dimitri Seretakis wrote: > Please don't shoot me for saying this but if there is so much demand for oil > from overpopulated countries like China and India then should we consider > hoarding our oil or at least limiting the amount we export to these rapidly > growing third world economies so that they don't deplete the worlds supply? > What would be ramifications of such a plan? > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Feb 26, 2012, at 1:53 PM, OK Don wrote: > > I read yesterday that gas is expected to hit $5/gal by the end of the year, > due mostly to Iran and demand from China and India. What I haven't found is > a prediction of the cost spread between gasoline and Diesel. > We saw a two car accident on I-44 Friday night - a red Fiat 500 rear-ended > a cream colored one! There is a Fiat dealerin OKC, but I don't usually see > enough of them to expect them to be running into each other! > > On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 12:45 PM, Curt Raymond wrote: > > Isn't it amazing to see how fuel economy has become the big story lately? > Its always the "New 30mpg super-whatever" now rather than the "3000hp > super-whatever" that it was 2 years ago. > > I think that the new hybrids/electric/whatevers helping push higher > efficiency in regular gas cars. Well I suppose $3.50/gal gas helps that too. > > After the new Super Bowl commercial I really want to test-drive a Fiat 500 > Abarth, then I looked up the specs and I really really want to test drive > one... > > > -Curt > > Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 09:45:45 -0500 > From: Dan Penoff > To: Mercedes Discussion List > Subject: Re: [MBZ] Volt Owner > Message-ID: <780f0312-9011-4283-b63d-2cf69f279...@yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > I have to agree with Grant. While I'm all for saving energy, the math > these people use, even if accurate, still fails to take a lot of the > upstream costs into account, especially the cost of generating the > electricity necessary to charge the thing. > > I have to believe that if this is factored in accurately, an electric car, > coupled with the high cost of battery technology, is still far more > expensive from a cost per mile than one running on fossil fuels. > > That being said, if solar costs could ever be brought into a manageable > range, if you lived in an area where solar made sense and you could > generate your own power, maybe, just maybe, it might approach a realistic > cost. > > It's unlikely to happen in our lifetime, I believe, so that's not > something I'm counting on. > > I think the best place to put our development dollars is to raise the > corporate CAFE standards. If Detroit is forced to develop more efficient > cars, and I believe they can, electric vehicles won't stand a chance of > being realistic unless something spectacular would occur with battery > technology. > > Where's that 100 MPG carburetor when you need it? > > > > Dan > > > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com > > > > > -- > OK Don > 2001 ML320 > 1992 300D 2.5T > 1990 300D 2.5T > 1997 Plymouth Grand Voyager > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt Owner
I'll give you a point on this only because I still own a buggy and a horse and yes.. I am that old. 100 yrs ago the car really didn't work all that well, there was no steady gasoline supply, and they were very expensive, compared to a horse. The gas powered car beat the horse and buggy because it got much better, a steady gasoline supply line was put in place, and it became "Cost Effective". The Volt [and others like it] are at that undeveloped stage, the energy supply line is not in place to support them [battery tech is a decade behind being "cost effective" at best guess]. They have no service history to support customer confidence. Your point is , on point, in that electric cars are, after 100 yrs of cars being well accepted, still not accepted, for all the reasons the 1908 Arrow went out of business. It wasn't good enough yet.. When they make a good one that works.. well priced.. with proven service history and customer support.. I'll consider it. IF Grant... On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 11:42 AM, Curt Raymond wrote: > 100 years ago you'd have been telling us "That new auto-carriage is crazy! > What idiot would pay for gasoline when you can feed a horse basically for > free? Why perform costly maintenance, it costs almost nothing to put a new > coat of paint on yonder buggy! As far as I can see the auto-carriage has no > future." > > In 100 years people are going to look back at people like you and say > "well that guy was an idiot" but not because the Volt is such a great car, > its not and pretty much everybody admits it. Its because change is coming > and the Volt is one of the first of a new breed. Will they be electric? > Hybrid? Synth diesel? Natural gas? I don't have any idea but I know they're > coming and holding on to the old things just shows you as a scared old coot > just like the scared old coots you made fun of back in your day. If you get > yourself a union suit and a hat with ear flaps you can even look like that > old coot you used to make fun of. ;) > > -Curt > > Note: The above is partially my opinion and partially satire, I'll leave > it to you to figure out which is which. > > Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 07:35:27 -0700 > From: G Mann > To: Mercedes Discussion List > Subject: Re: [MBZ] Volt Owner > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > Well good for them but it's still wonky math. > > Ok.. so electric costs are .12 cents average Let's factor in the cars > cost of $46.000 and divide that by the "projected" service life of the > battery, plus battery replacement costs for service life of the car [got > any idea how many miles this car will go?] , THEN amortize that true cost > [plus any gasoline used, don't forget] into each mile driven. > > I don't have those numbers to run with because of all the "hyperbole green > spin" but my engineering gut tells me it will come in high for "cost per > mile driven". > > Now let's take a real hard look at the true emission profile. More than 80% > of electric generation is done via coal fired plants, which although not in > your green car back yard, are none the less emission factories belching > 24/7 into the "carbon footprint" so you can plug in your "green car" and > hide your emissions by using a clever hyperbole that the 'car didn't do > it" Well. it does. For every hour you are "plugged in" and every hour > you are driving that car, the power grid must "stand ready" with electric > to "refill your tank [battery]" Better add that to the math also to get a > real picture. > > This is getting long and it is a long equation. Bottom line, oil was > chosen because it was cheap, quick, easy, and "clean enough". As an energy, > it has dominated for all those reasons and will continue despite "stimuli > by government" for most of my remaining lifetime. > > Grant... > > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com > ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt Owner
I think the serial hybrid, like a Diesel/electric locomotive, is the way to go - you get the effeciency of the electric drive train, and the freedom form the grid to travel cross country. I like the design of the Volt - they did a good job of managing the two poer sources. The recharger should be a paint-can-sized turbine. http://userweb.windwireless.net/~jimc/hybrids.html#REV -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt Owner
Strangely its cheaper to refine oil here which has led the US to I doubt it. become a net exporter of gasoline which is what is driving our prices higher. Europe has a huge tax overhead on fuel. I think we're subsidizing other countries' government when we sell overseas. Those excess fuel taxes don't go to the dinosaurs, after all. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt Owner
Yes - the oil companies are international and dont care about national boundries, beyond what the tax structures are. There is no "US" oil --- On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 3:23 PM, Curt Raymond wrote: > You'd have to nationalize all "our" oil resources, which is to say you'd > have to take them all, presumably by eminent domain. I'm sure that'll work > out just fine... > > The thing is that the oil here isn't "ours" and while US oil demand is > down, US oil production is UP and prices continue to rise. > Strangely its cheaper to refine oil here which has led the US to become a > net exporter of gasoline which is what is driving our prices higher. > > I was pondering this yesterday, what about an export tax, is such a thing > legal? That should at least check some of the exports but unfortunately > exports are politically positive... > > -Curt > > Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 11:58:30 -0800 (PST) > From: Dimitri Seretakis > To: Mercedes Discussion List > Subject: Re: [MBZ] Volt Owner > Message-ID: > <1330286310.10354.yext-apple-iph...@web113207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Please don't shoot me for saying this but if there is so much demand for > oil from overpopulated countries like China and India then should we > consider hoarding our oil or at least limiting the amount we export to > these rapidly growing third world economies so that they don't deplete the > worlds supply? What would be ramifications of such a plan? > > Sent from my iPhone > > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com > -- OK Don 2001 ML320 1992 300D 2.5T 1990 300D 2.5T 1997 Plymouth Grand Voyager ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt Owner
You'd have to nationalize all "our" oil resources, which is to say you'd have to take them all, presumably by eminent domain. I'm sure that'll work out just fine... The thing is that the oil here isn't "ours" and while US oil demand is down, US oil production is UP and prices continue to rise. Strangely its cheaper to refine oil here which has led the US to become a net exporter of gasoline which is what is driving our prices higher. I was pondering this yesterday, what about an export tax, is such a thing legal? That should at least check some of the exports but unfortunately exports are politically positive... -Curt Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 11:58:30 -0800 (PST) From: Dimitri Seretakis To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Volt Owner Message-ID: <1330286310.10354.yext-apple-iph...@web113207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Please don't shoot me for saying this but if there is so much demand for oil from overpopulated countries like China and India then should we consider hoarding our oil or at least limiting the amount we export to these rapidly growing third world economies so that they don't deplete the worlds supply? What would be ramifications of such a plan? Sent from my iPhone ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt Owner
Please don't shoot me for saying this but if there is so much demand for oil from overpopulated countries like China and India then should we consider hoarding our oil or at least limiting the amount we export to these rapidly growing third world economies so that they don't deplete the worlds supply? What would be ramifications of such a plan? Sent from my iPhone On Feb 26, 2012, at 1:53 PM, OK Don wrote: I read yesterday that gas is expected to hit $5/gal by the end of the year, due mostly to Iran and demand from China and India. What I haven't found is a prediction of the cost spread between gasoline and Diesel. We saw a two car accident on I-44 Friday night - a red Fiat 500 rear-ended a cream colored one! There is a Fiat dealerin OKC, but I don't usually see enough of them to expect them to be running into each other! On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 12:45 PM, Curt Raymond wrote: Isn't it amazing to see how fuel economy has become the big story lately? Its always the "New 30mpg super-whatever" now rather than the "3000hp super-whatever" that it was 2 years ago. I think that the new hybrids/electric/whatevers helping push higher efficiency in regular gas cars. Well I suppose $3.50/gal gas helps that too. After the new Super Bowl commercial I really want to test-drive a Fiat 500 Abarth, then I looked up the specs and I really really want to test drive one... -Curt Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 09:45:45 -0500 From: Dan Penoff To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Volt Owner Message-ID: <780f0312-9011-4283-b63d-2cf69f279...@yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 I have to agree with Grant. While I'm all for saving energy, the math these people use, even if accurate, still fails to take a lot of the upstream costs into account, especially the cost of generating the electricity necessary to charge the thing. I have to believe that if this is factored in accurately, an electric car, coupled with the high cost of battery technology, is still far more expensive from a cost per mile than one running on fossil fuels. That being said, if solar costs could ever be brought into a manageable range, if you lived in an area where solar made sense and you could generate your own power, maybe, just maybe, it might approach a realistic cost. It's unlikely to happen in our lifetime, I believe, so that's not something I'm counting on. I think the best place to put our development dollars is to raise the corporate CAFE standards. If Detroit is forced to develop more efficient cars, and I believe they can, electric vehicles won't stand a chance of being realistic unless something spectacular would occur with battery technology. Where's that 100 MPG carburetor when you need it? Dan ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- OK Don 2001 ML320 1992 300D 2.5T 1990 300D 2.5T 1997 Plymouth Grand Voyager ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt Owner
Where can I get me summadat? --R On 2/26/12 1:42 PM, Curt Raymond wrote: If you get yourself a union suit and a hat with ear flaps you can even look like that old coot you used to make fun of.;) ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt Owner
I read yesterday that gas is expected to hit $5/gal by the end of the year, due mostly to Iran and demand from China and India. What I haven't found is a prediction of the cost spread between gasoline and Diesel. We saw a two car accident on I-44 Friday night - a red Fiat 500 rear-ended a cream colored one! There is a Fiat dealerin OKC, but I don't usually see enough of them to expect them to be running into each other! On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 12:45 PM, Curt Raymond wrote: > Isn't it amazing to see how fuel economy has become the big story lately? > Its always the "New 30mpg super-whatever" now rather than the "3000hp > super-whatever" that it was 2 years ago. > > I think that the new hybrids/electric/whatevers helping push higher > efficiency in regular gas cars. Well I suppose $3.50/gal gas helps that too. > > After the new Super Bowl commercial I really want to test-drive a Fiat 500 > Abarth, then I looked up the specs and I really really want to test drive > one... > > > -Curt > > Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 09:45:45 -0500 > From: Dan Penoff > To: Mercedes Discussion List > Subject: Re: [MBZ] Volt Owner > Message-ID: <780f0312-9011-4283-b63d-2cf69f279...@yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > I have to agree with Grant. While I'm all for saving energy, the math > these people use, even if accurate, still fails to take a lot of the > upstream costs into account, especially the cost of generating the > electricity necessary to charge the thing. > > I have to believe that if this is factored in accurately, an electric car, > coupled with the high cost of battery technology, is still far more > expensive from a cost per mile than one running on fossil fuels. > > That being said, if solar costs could ever be brought into a manageable > range, if you lived in an area where solar made sense and you could > generate your own power, maybe, just maybe, it might approach a realistic > cost. > > It's unlikely to happen in our lifetime, I believe, so that's not > something I'm counting on. > > I think the best place to put our development dollars is to raise the > corporate CAFE standards. If Detroit is forced to develop more efficient > cars, and I believe they can, electric vehicles won't stand a chance of > being realistic unless something spectacular would occur with battery > technology. > > Where's that 100 MPG carburetor when you need it? > > > > Dan > > > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com > -- OK Don 2001 ML320 1992 300D 2.5T 1990 300D 2.5T 1997 Plymouth Grand Voyager ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt Owner
I don't disagree with some of your points, I disagree with the misinformation that's being used to promote these as being "cheaper" and "environmentally friendly" to operate compared to an oil-fired automobile. That is simply not the case, if anything, it's deceptive as the costs are considerably higher, I believe. Dan On Feb 26, 2012, at 1:42 PM, Curt Raymond wrote: > 100 years ago you'd have been telling us "That new auto-carriage is crazy! > What idiot would pay for gasoline when you can feed a horse basically for > free? Why perform costly maintenance, it costs almost nothing to put a new > coat of paint on yonder buggy! As far as I can see the auto-carriage has no > future." > > In 100 years people are going to look back at people like you and say "well > that guy was an idiot" but not because the Volt is such a great car, its not > and pretty much everybody admits it. Its because change is coming and the > Volt is one of the first of a new breed. Will they be electric? Hybrid? Synth > diesel? Natural gas? I don't have any idea but I know they're coming and > holding on to the old things just shows you as a scared old coot just like > the scared old coots you made fun of back in your day. If you get yourself a > union suit and a hat with ear flaps you can even look like that old coot you > used to make fun of. ;) > > -Curt > > Note: The above is partially my opinion and partially satire, I'll leave it > to you to figure out which is which. > > Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 07:35:27 -0700 > From: G Mann > To: Mercedes Discussion List > Subject: Re: [MBZ] Volt Owner > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > Well good for them but it's still wonky math. > > Ok.. so electric costs are .12 cents average Let's factor in the cars > cost of $46.000 and divide that by the "projected" service life of the > battery, plus battery replacement costs for service life of the car [got > any idea how many miles this car will go?] , THEN amortize that true cost > [plus any gasoline used, don't forget] into each mile driven. > > I don't have those numbers to run with because of all the "hyperbole green > spin" but my engineering gut tells me it will come in high for "cost per > mile driven". > > Now let's take a real hard look at the true emission profile. More than 80% > of electric generation is done via coal fired plants, which although not in > your green car back yard, are none the less emission factories belching > 24/7 into the "carbon footprint" so you can plug in your "green car" and > hide your emissions by using a clever hyperbole that the 'car didn't do > it" Well. it does. For every hour you are "plugged in" and every hour > you are driving that car, the power grid must "stand ready" with electric > to "refill your tank [battery]" Better add that to the math also to get a > real picture. > > This is getting long and it is a long equation. Bottom line, oil was > chosen because it was cheap, quick, easy, and "clean enough". As an energy, > it has dominated for all those reasons and will continue despite "stimuli > by government" for most of my remaining lifetime. > > Grant... > > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt Owner
At this point, you don't buy a hybrid or electric car for save money. You do it because you want the exotic technology - the newest, latest thing. Yeah, you get to brag about high mileage, but need to acknowledge that it's smoke and mirrors, and that there is NO reduction in CO2 production. Most of the recharging of a total electric car occurs at night when the grid is under utilized - grid capacity shouldn't be much of an issue. I think the serial hybrid, like a Diesel/electric locomotive, is the way to go - you get the effeciency of the electric drive train, and the freedom form the grid to travel cross country. I like the design of the Volt - they did a good job of managing the two poer sources. Most car purchases are emotional, not logical. We're "fans" of MBs, I can't honestly say that they make the most sense economically, though I have gotten excellent service from several relatively inexpensive older, high mileage MBs. I do acknowledge that I'm a Mercedes bigot - no two ways about it. I just like the engineering, and love Diesels. On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 10:36 AM, Rick Knoble wrote: > On Feb 26, 2012, at 8:45 AM, "Dan Penoff" wrote: > > > I think the best place to put our development dollars is to raise the > corporate CAFE standards. If Detroit is forced to develop more efficient > cars, and I believe they can, electric vehicles won't stand a chance of > being realistic unless something spectacular would occur with battery > technology. > > I am no fan of government intervention, but CAFE has worked in the past. > It was probably the impetus for the Prius. Maybe a relaxation of EPA regs > is in order. The Honda CRX used to get over 50 mpg twenty years ago. Same > with the VW Jetta TDI. I am not a fan of world government either, but > perhaps world standards for emissions and safety are in order. Then we > could get more diesel MB's and maybe even the 70 mpg diesel Focus here in > the US of A > > Rick > Sent from my iPhone > > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com > -- OK Don 2001 ML320 1992 300D 2.5T 1990 300D 2.5T 1997 Plymouth Grand Voyager ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt Owner
Isn't it amazing to see how fuel economy has become the big story lately? Its always the "New 30mpg super-whatever" now rather than the "3000hp super-whatever" that it was 2 years ago. I think that the new hybrids/electric/whatevers helping push higher efficiency in regular gas cars. Well I suppose $3.50/gal gas helps that too. After the new Super Bowl commercial I really want to test-drive a Fiat 500 Abarth, then I looked up the specs and I really really want to test drive one... -Curt Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 09:45:45 -0500 From: Dan Penoff To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Volt Owner Message-ID: <780f0312-9011-4283-b63d-2cf69f279...@yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 I have to agree with Grant. While I'm all for saving energy, the math these people use, even if accurate, still fails to take a lot of the upstream costs into account, especially the cost of generating the electricity necessary to charge the thing. I have to believe that if this is factored in accurately, an electric car, coupled with the high cost of battery technology, is still far more expensive from a cost per mile than one running on fossil fuels. That being said, if solar costs could ever be brought into a manageable range, if you lived in an area where solar made sense and you could generate your own power, maybe, just maybe, it might approach a realistic cost. It's unlikely to happen in our lifetime, I believe, so that's not something I'm counting on. I think the best place to put our development dollars is to raise the corporate CAFE standards. If Detroit is forced to develop more efficient cars, and I believe they can, electric vehicles won't stand a chance of being realistic unless something spectacular would occur with battery technology. Where's that 100 MPG carburetor when you need it? Dan ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt Owner
100 years ago you'd have been telling us "That new auto-carriage is crazy! What idiot would pay for gasoline when you can feed a horse basically for free? Why perform costly maintenance, it costs almost nothing to put a new coat of paint on yonder buggy! As far as I can see the auto-carriage has no future." In 100 years people are going to look back at people like you and say "well that guy was an idiot" but not because the Volt is such a great car, its not and pretty much everybody admits it. Its because change is coming and the Volt is one of the first of a new breed. Will they be electric? Hybrid? Synth diesel? Natural gas? I don't have any idea but I know they're coming and holding on to the old things just shows you as a scared old coot just like the scared old coots you made fun of back in your day. If you get yourself a union suit and a hat with ear flaps you can even look like that old coot you used to make fun of. ;) -Curt Note: The above is partially my opinion and partially satire, I'll leave it to you to figure out which is which. Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 07:35:27 -0700 From: G Mann To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Volt Owner Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Well good for them but it's still wonky math. Ok.. so electric costs are .12 cents average Let's factor in the cars cost of $46.000 and divide that by the "projected" service life of the battery, plus battery replacement costs for service life of the car [got any idea how many miles this car will go?] , THEN amortize that true cost [plus any gasoline used, don't forget] into each mile driven. I don't have those numbers to run with because of all the "hyperbole green spin" but my engineering gut tells me it will come in high for "cost per mile driven". Now let's take a real hard look at the true emission profile. More than 80% of electric generation is done via coal fired plants, which although not in your green car back yard, are none the less emission factories belching 24/7 into the "carbon footprint" so you can plug in your "green car" and hide your emissions by using a clever hyperbole that the 'car didn't do it" Well. it does. For every hour you are "plugged in" and every hour you are driving that car, the power grid must "stand ready" with electric to "refill your tank [battery]" Better add that to the math also to get a real picture. This is getting long and it is a long equation. Bottom line, oil was chosen because it was cheap, quick, easy, and "clean enough". As an energy, it has dominated for all those reasons and will continue despite "stimuli by government" for most of my remaining lifetime. Grant... ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt Owner
On Feb 26, 2012, at 8:45 AM, "Dan Penoff" wrote: > I think the best place to put our development dollars is to raise the > corporate CAFE standards. If Detroit is forced to develop more efficient > cars, and I believe they can, electric vehicles won't stand a chance of being > realistic unless something spectacular would occur with battery technology. I am no fan of government intervention, but CAFE has worked in the past. It was probably the impetus for the Prius. Maybe a relaxation of EPA regs is in order. The Honda CRX used to get over 50 mpg twenty years ago. Same with the VW Jetta TDI. I am not a fan of world government either, but perhaps world standards for emissions and safety are in order. Then we could get more diesel MB's and maybe even the 70 mpg diesel Focus here in the US of A Rick Sent from my iPhone ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Volt Owner
I have to agree with Grant. While I'm all for saving energy, the math these people use, even if accurate, still fails to take a lot of the upstream costs into account, especially the cost of generating the electricity necessary to charge the thing. I have to believe that if this is factored in accurately, an electric car, coupled with the high cost of battery technology, is still far more expensive from a cost per mile than one running on fossil fuels. That being said, if solar costs could ever be brought into a manageable range, if you lived in an area where solar made sense and you could generate your own power, maybe, just maybe, it might approach a realistic cost. It's unlikely to happen in our lifetime, I believe, so that's not something I'm counting on. I think the best place to put our development dollars is to raise the corporate CAFE standards. If Detroit is forced to develop more efficient cars, and I believe they can, electric vehicles won't stand a chance of being realistic unless something spectacular would occur with battery technology. Where's that 100 MPG carburetor when you need it? Dan On Feb 26, 2012, at 9:35 AM, G Mann wrote: > Well good for them but it's still wonky math. > > Ok.. so electric costs are .12 cents average Let's factor in the cars > cost of $46.000 and divide that by the "projected" service life of the > battery, plus battery replacement costs for service life of the car [got > any idea how many miles this car will go?] , THEN amortize that true cost > [plus any gasoline used, don't forget] into each mile driven. > > I don't have those numbers to run with because of all the "hyperbole green > spin" but my engineering gut tells me it will come in high for "cost per > mile driven". > > Now let's take a real hard look at the true emission profile. More than 80% > of electric generation is done via coal fired plants, which although not in > your green car back yard, are none the less emission factories belching > 24/7 into the "carbon footprint" so you can plug in your "green car" and > hide your emissions by using a clever hyperbole that the 'car didn't do > it" Well. it does. For every hour you are "plugged in" and every hour > you are driving that car, the power grid must "stand ready" with electric > to "refill your tank [battery]" Better add that to the math also to get a > real picture. > > This is getting long and it is a long equation. Bottom line, oil was > chosen because it was cheap, quick, easy, and "clean enough". As an energy, > it has dominated for all those reasons and will continue despite "stimuli > by government" for most of my remaining lifetime. > > Grant... > > On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 6:15 AM, Gerry Archer wrote: > >> Gerry wrote: >> I sent the Fox News article to a friend who has owned a Volt for 3 or 4 >> months. This lady is a medical research tech and her husband is a >> microbiologist. Both are dedicated to extreme accuracy so I wouldn't >> question their math. >> This is her reply: >> >> "Thanks for sending. When I read over a DOLLAR per kwh I knew something >> was wrong with the article. We pay about 10 CENTS per kwh and snopes said >> the national average is about 12 cents. It costs us about a dollar to >> charge the battery vs $18 in article. We go 45 to 50 miles for a dollar >> charge up, not 25 miles for $18. Somebody made up some atrocious math. You >> can go down to 25 miles per charge if it is very cold or you go very fast. >> We drove the car about 400 miles last week without charging and averaged >> about 45 mi per gallon because is was mostly on gas. On battery alone then >> charge up at night and never use gas we get almost 100 mpg equivalent." >> http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/chevyvolt.asp >> --- >> >> Eric Bolling (Fox Business Channel's Follow the Money) test drove the Chevy >> Volt at the invitation of General Motors. >> >> For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles >> before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine. >> >> Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the >> battery. >> So, the range including the 9 gallon gas tank and the 16 kwh battery is >> approximately 270 miles. >> It will take you 4 1/2 hours to drive 270 miles at 60 mph. >> Then add 10 hours to charge the battery and you have a total trip time of >> 14.5 hours. >> 270 miles in 14.5 hours would be < 20 mph average speed. >> >> According to General Motors, the Volt battery holds 16 kwh of electricity. >> It takes a full 10 hours to charge a drained battery.The cost for the >> electricity to charge the Volt is never mentioned so I looked up what I pay >> for electricity.I pay approximately (it varies with amount used and the >> seasons) $1.16 per kwh.16 kwh x $1.16 per kwh = $18.56 to charge the >> battery.$18.56 per charge divided by 25 miles = $0.74 per mile to operate >> the Volt using the batt
Re: [MBZ] Volt Owner
Well good for them but it's still wonky math. Ok.. so electric costs are .12 cents average Let's factor in the cars cost of $46.000 and divide that by the "projected" service life of the battery, plus battery replacement costs for service life of the car [got any idea how many miles this car will go?] , THEN amortize that true cost [plus any gasoline used, don't forget] into each mile driven. I don't have those numbers to run with because of all the "hyperbole green spin" but my engineering gut tells me it will come in high for "cost per mile driven". Now let's take a real hard look at the true emission profile. More than 80% of electric generation is done via coal fired plants, which although not in your green car back yard, are none the less emission factories belching 24/7 into the "carbon footprint" so you can plug in your "green car" and hide your emissions by using a clever hyperbole that the 'car didn't do it" Well. it does. For every hour you are "plugged in" and every hour you are driving that car, the power grid must "stand ready" with electric to "refill your tank [battery]" Better add that to the math also to get a real picture. This is getting long and it is a long equation. Bottom line, oil was chosen because it was cheap, quick, easy, and "clean enough". As an energy, it has dominated for all those reasons and will continue despite "stimuli by government" for most of my remaining lifetime. Grant... On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 6:15 AM, Gerry Archer wrote: > Gerry wrote: > I sent the Fox News article to a friend who has owned a Volt for 3 or 4 > months. This lady is a medical research tech and her husband is a > microbiologist. Both are dedicated to extreme accuracy so I wouldn't > question their math. > This is her reply: > > "Thanks for sending. When I read over a DOLLAR per kwh I knew something > was wrong with the article. We pay about 10 CENTS per kwh and snopes said > the national average is about 12 cents. It costs us about a dollar to > charge the battery vs $18 in article. We go 45 to 50 miles for a dollar > charge up, not 25 miles for $18. Somebody made up some atrocious math. You > can go down to 25 miles per charge if it is very cold or you go very fast. > We drove the car about 400 miles last week without charging and averaged > about 45 mi per gallon because is was mostly on gas. On battery alone then > charge up at night and never use gas we get almost 100 mpg equivalent." > http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/chevyvolt.asp > --- > > Eric Bolling (Fox Business Channel's Follow the Money) test drove the Chevy > Volt at the invitation of General Motors. > > For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles > before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine. > > Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the > battery. > So, the range including the 9 gallon gas tank and the 16 kwh battery is > approximately 270 miles. > It will take you 4 1/2 hours to drive 270 miles at 60 mph. > Then add 10 hours to charge the battery and you have a total trip time of > 14.5 hours. > 270 miles in 14.5 hours would be < 20 mph average speed. > > According to General Motors, the Volt battery holds 16 kwh of electricity. > It takes a full 10 hours to charge a drained battery.The cost for the > electricity to charge the Volt is never mentioned so I looked up what I pay > for electricity.I pay approximately (it varies with amount used and the > seasons) $1.16 per kwh.16 kwh x $1.16 per kwh = $18.56 to charge the > battery.$18.56 per charge divided by 25 miles = $0.74 per mile to operate > the Volt using the battery. > > Compare this to a similar size car with a gasoline engine only that gets 32 > mpg.$4.00 per gallon divided by 32 mpg = $0.125 per mile. > Gasoline prices would have to rise to $23.68/gal to break even > (assuming the cost for electricity -–to charge the Volt’s batteries –- > remained unchanged). > The gasoline powered car cost about $15,000 while the Volt costs $46,000. > > So we are encouraged to pay 3 times as much for a car > that costs more that 7 times as much to run > and takes 3 times as long to drive across country. > > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com > ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
