Re: [MBZ] starship

[G Mann]

Allan,

I think you nailed the core issue with FAA. With metal fatigue there are
clues that give advance warning it is happening. With composite
construction, the clues are much harder to find and identify, plus, there
is no way to take apart a composite assembly once it's "glued together" for
inspection so you can find clues if there are any. Non-destructive testing,
Xray, ultrasound, were all used and found lacking for clear definition of
failure path.

That said, it was determined in FAA speak that it was impossible to
establish a service life or cycle life on the component [whole airframe in
this case], and they made the decision to terminate them from service with
a buyback.

"We're from the FAA and we are not happy until you are not happy" as a good
friend of mine who is an FAA safety inspector says.

Grant...



On Mon, May 6, 2013 at 4:12 AM, Allan Streib  wrote:

> I think the FAA concern was less with the strength of the composites
> than the then-unknowns of how they might fatigue over time.  With more
> than a few lessons about metal fatigue learned the hard way, they didn't
> want to repeat that experience with composites.
>
> Larry T  writes:
>
> > Hi All.
> > I always wondered what happened to them.  IIRC, they had amazing
> > performance.
> >
> > The FAA exhibits monarch type legislative oversight - likely rightfully
> > so.  The FAA is responsible for a large number of airplanes and by
> > extension, passengers.Back when I was taking flying lessons i was
> > always amazed at the extent of thought they put into the legislation..
> > Of course the need is obvious.
> >
> > Of course, 30+ years ago things were a little simpler with fewer space
> > age materials available to the general public.I would think the F1
> > racing experience would help the Starship get farther along the
> > legislative trail.  They use composites for everything except engine and
> > trans blocks I believe.  Of course there are some internal parts
> > engine/tranny parts
> > that do not lend themselves to composites.  But the technology has been
> > well documented and tested - of course, getting the various groups to
> > release proprietary information may be a tough row to hoe.
> >
> > Hopefully, sometime in the future, we'll see further acceptance in the
> > General Aviation market.
> >
> > LarryT
> >
> >
> > On 5/4/2013 10:48 PM, G Mann wrote:
> >> Nothing.
> >>
> >> The problem was, the entire fleet sold only made a bit more than 50
> >> airplanes. The certification of an all composite airplane had never been
> >> done [Beech spent millions and millions getting past FAA] and the FAA
> has
> >> no basis to establish service life on the composite parts, like wing
> spars,
> >> for example. The requirement to continue to supply service and parts
> >> exceeded the profit potential for the fleet, no new sales or production
> was
> >> going to happen, so Beech did the only thing it could to save it's ass,
> it
> >> bought them all back.
> >>
> >> Short story, huge money involved, excellent aircraft, those who flew
> them
> >> or owned them loved them. It's my information they are all setting
> stored
> >> someplace, still.
> >>
> >> Grant...
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sat, May 4, 2013 at 6:37 PM, OK Don  wrote:
> >>
> >>> What was wrong with them?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Sat, May 4, 2013 at 8:10 PM, G Mann  wrote:
> >>>
>  All Starships were removed from service, Beachcraft bought them all
> back
>  and retired them.. except one. The owner refused to sell it back and
>  continues to use it. I believe it is the only flying Starship.
> 
>  Very good fellow pilot friend is a certified Starship pilot and flew
> them
>  for years in corporate use. The information comes from him and I
> consider
>  it reliable.
> 
>  I'll verify it with a phone call later tonight.
>  Likely, he knows both the airplane and the crew.
> 
>  Grant...
> 
> 
>  --
> 
> >>> OK Don
> >>> 2013 F150
> >>> 2012 Passat TDI DSG
> >>> 1957 C182A
> >>> ___
> >>> http://www.okiebenz.com
> >>> For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
> >>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >>>
> >>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> >>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >>>
> >> ___
> >> http://www.okiebenz.com
> >> For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
> >> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >>
> >> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> >> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >>
> >
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> > For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
> --
> 

Re: [MBZ] starship

[Allan Streib]

I think the FAA concern was less with the strength of the composites
than the then-unknowns of how they might fatigue over time.  With more
than a few lessons about metal fatigue learned the hard way, they didn't
want to repeat that experience with composites.

Larry T  writes:

> Hi All.
> I always wondered what happened to them.  IIRC, they had amazing 
> performance.
>
> The FAA exhibits monarch type legislative oversight - likely rightfully 
> so.  The FAA is responsible for a large number of airplanes and by 
> extension, passengers.Back when I was taking flying lessons i was 
> always amazed at the extent of thought they put into the legislation..  
> Of course the need is obvious.
>
> Of course, 30+ years ago things were a little simpler with fewer space 
> age materials available to the general public.I would think the F1 
> racing experience would help the Starship get farther along the 
> legislative trail.  They use composites for everything except engine and 
> trans blocks I believe.  Of course there are some internal parts 
> engine/tranny parts
> that do not lend themselves to composites.  But the technology has been 
> well documented and tested - of course, getting the various groups to 
> release proprietary information may be a tough row to hoe.
>
> Hopefully, sometime in the future, we'll see further acceptance in the 
> General Aviation market.
>
> LarryT
>
>
> On 5/4/2013 10:48 PM, G Mann wrote:
>> Nothing.
>>
>> The problem was, the entire fleet sold only made a bit more than 50
>> airplanes. The certification of an all composite airplane had never been
>> done [Beech spent millions and millions getting past FAA] and the FAA has
>> no basis to establish service life on the composite parts, like wing spars,
>> for example. The requirement to continue to supply service and parts
>> exceeded the profit potential for the fleet, no new sales or production was
>> going to happen, so Beech did the only thing it could to save it's ass, it
>> bought them all back.
>>
>> Short story, huge money involved, excellent aircraft, those who flew them
>> or owned them loved them. It's my information they are all setting stored
>> someplace, still.
>>
>> Grant...
>>
>>
>> On Sat, May 4, 2013 at 6:37 PM, OK Don  wrote:
>>
>>> What was wrong with them?
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, May 4, 2013 at 8:10 PM, G Mann  wrote:
>>>
 All Starships were removed from service, Beachcraft bought them all back
 and retired them.. except one. The owner refused to sell it back and
 continues to use it. I believe it is the only flying Starship.

 Very good fellow pilot friend is a certified Starship pilot and flew them
 for years in corporate use. The information comes from him and I consider
 it reliable.

 I'll verify it with a phone call later tonight.
 Likely, he knows both the airplane and the crew.

 Grant...


 --

>>> OK Don
>>> 2013 F150
>>> 2012 Passat TDI DSG
>>> 1957 C182A
>>> ___
>>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>>> For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
>>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>>>
>>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>>>
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>> For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>>
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>>
>
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

-- 
Allan Streib

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Re: [MBZ] starship

[Larry T]

Hi All.
I always wondered what happened to them.  IIRC, they had amazing 
performance.


The FAA exhibits monarch type legislative oversight - likely rightfully 
so.  The FAA is responsible for a large number of airplanes and by 
extension, passengers.Back when I was taking flying lessons i was 
always amazed at the extent of thought they put into the legislation..  
Of course the need is obvious.


Of course, 30+ years ago things were a little simpler with fewer space 
age materials available to the general public.I would think the F1 
racing experience would help the Starship get farther along the 
legislative trail.  They use composites for everything except engine and 
trans blocks I believe.  Of course there are some internal parts 
engine/tranny parts
that do not lend themselves to composites.  But the technology has been 
well documented and tested - of course, getting the various groups to 
release proprietary information may be a tough row to hoe.


Hopefully, sometime in the future, we'll see further acceptance in the 
General Aviation market.


LarryT


On 5/4/2013 10:48 PM, G Mann wrote:

Nothing.

The problem was, the entire fleet sold only made a bit more than 50
airplanes. The certification of an all composite airplane had never been
done [Beech spent millions and millions getting past FAA] and the FAA has
no basis to establish service life on the composite parts, like wing spars,
for example. The requirement to continue to supply service and parts
exceeded the profit potential for the fleet, no new sales or production was
going to happen, so Beech did the only thing it could to save it's ass, it
bought them all back.

Short story, huge money involved, excellent aircraft, those who flew them
or owned them loved them. It's my information they are all setting stored
someplace, still.

Grant...


On Sat, May 4, 2013 at 6:37 PM, OK Don  wrote:


What was wrong with them?


On Sat, May 4, 2013 at 8:10 PM, G Mann  wrote:


All Starships were removed from service, Beachcraft bought them all back
and retired them.. except one. The owner refused to sell it back and
continues to use it. I believe it is the only flying Starship.

Very good fellow pilot friend is a certified Starship pilot and flew them
for years in corporate use. The information comes from him and I consider
it reliable.

I'll verify it with a phone call later tonight.
Likely, he knows both the airplane and the crew.

Grant...


--


OK Don
2013 F150
2012 Passat TDI DSG
1957 C182A
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Re: [MBZ] starship

[Scott Ritchey]

And that's why general aviation is stuck in 1940s technology.

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of G Mann
Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2013 10:48 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] starship

Nothing.

The problem was, the entire fleet sold only made a bit more than 50
airplanes. The certification of an all composite airplane had never been
done [Beech spent millions and millions getting past FAA] and the FAA has
no basis to establish service life on the composite parts, like wing spars,
for example. The requirement to continue to supply service and parts
exceeded the profit potential for the fleet, no new sales or production was
going to happen, so Beech did the only thing it could to save it's ass, it
bought them all back.

Short story, huge money involved, excellent aircraft, those who flew them
or owned them loved them. It's my information they are all setting stored
someplace, still.

Grant...


On Sat, May 4, 2013 at 6:37 PM, OK Don  wrote:

> What was wrong with them?
>
>
> On Sat, May 4, 2013 at 8:10 PM, G Mann  wrote:
>
> > All Starships were removed from service, Beachcraft bought them all back
> > and retired them.. except one. The owner refused to sell it back and
> > continues to use it. I believe it is the only flying Starship.
> >
> > Very good fellow pilot friend is a certified Starship pilot and flew
them
> > for years in corporate use. The information comes from him and I
consider
> > it reliable.
> >
> > I'll verify it with a phone call later tonight.
> > Likely, he knows both the airplane and the crew.
> >
> > Grant...
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> OK Don
> 2013 F150
> 2012 Passat TDI DSG
> 1957 C182A
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
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Re: [MBZ] starship

[Gerry Archer]

IIRC back when Beech was selling them, the Avanti had better numbers, fuel 
consumption, number of seats, etc, according to several articles I read. 
That was the reason for the Starships poor sales according to the article. 
The Avanti is still in production.


 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piaggio_P.180_Avanti  (includes picture)

Gerry

From: "OK Don" 

What was wrong with them?



On Sat, May 4, 2013 at 8:10 PM, G Mann  wrote:

All Starships were removed from service, Beachcraft bought them all back
and retired them.. except one. The owner refused to sell it back and
continues to use it. I believe it is the only flying Starship.

Very good fellow pilot friend is a certified Starship pilot and flew them
for years in corporate use. The information comes from him and I consider
it reliable.

I'll verify it with a phone call later tonight.
Likely, he knows both the airplane and the crew.

Grant...


--


OK Don
2013 F150
2012 Passat TDI DSG
1957 C182A
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-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2241 / Virus Database: 3162/5797 - Release Date: 05/04/13




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Re: [MBZ] starship

[OK Don]

That would really suck!


On Sat, May 4, 2013 at 9:48 PM, G Mann  wrote:

> Nothing.
>
> The requirement to continue to supply service and parts
> exceeded the profit potential for the fleet, no new sales or production was
> going to happen, so Beech did the only thing it could to save it's ass, it
> bought them all back
>



-- 
OK Don
2013 F150
2012 Passat TDI DSG
1957 C182A
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Re: [MBZ] starship

[G Mann]

Nothing.

The problem was, the entire fleet sold only made a bit more than 50
airplanes. The certification of an all composite airplane had never been
done [Beech spent millions and millions getting past FAA] and the FAA has
no basis to establish service life on the composite parts, like wing spars,
for example. The requirement to continue to supply service and parts
exceeded the profit potential for the fleet, no new sales or production was
going to happen, so Beech did the only thing it could to save it's ass, it
bought them all back.

Short story, huge money involved, excellent aircraft, those who flew them
or owned them loved them. It's my information they are all setting stored
someplace, still.

Grant...


On Sat, May 4, 2013 at 6:37 PM, OK Don  wrote:

> What was wrong with them?
>
>
> On Sat, May 4, 2013 at 8:10 PM, G Mann  wrote:
>
> > All Starships were removed from service, Beachcraft bought them all back
> > and retired them.. except one. The owner refused to sell it back and
> > continues to use it. I believe it is the only flying Starship.
> >
> > Very good fellow pilot friend is a certified Starship pilot and flew them
> > for years in corporate use. The information comes from him and I consider
> > it reliable.
> >
> > I'll verify it with a phone call later tonight.
> > Likely, he knows both the airplane and the crew.
> >
> > Grant...
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> OK Don
> 2013 F150
> 2012 Passat TDI DSG
> 1957 C182A
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
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Re: [MBZ] starship sighting...

[Allan Streib]

Rich Thomas  writes:

> There is one that flies around here occasionally, it is very noisy.

That's why I looked up at it... I could tell it was a turboprop, but it
sounded different.

-- 
Allan Streib

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Re: [MBZ] starship

[OK Don]

What was wrong with them?


On Sat, May 4, 2013 at 8:10 PM, G Mann  wrote:

> All Starships were removed from service, Beachcraft bought them all back
> and retired them.. except one. The owner refused to sell it back and
> continues to use it. I believe it is the only flying Starship.
>
> Very good fellow pilot friend is a certified Starship pilot and flew them
> for years in corporate use. The information comes from him and I consider
> it reliable.
>
> I'll verify it with a phone call later tonight.
> Likely, he knows both the airplane and the crew.
>
> Grant...
>
>
> --
>
OK Don
2013 F150
2012 Passat TDI DSG
1957 C182A
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Re: [MBZ] starship

[G Mann]

All Starships were removed from service, Beachcraft bought them all back
and retired them.. except one. The owner refused to sell it back and
continues to use it. I believe it is the only flying Starship.

Very good fellow pilot friend is a certified Starship pilot and flew them
for years in corporate use. The information comes from him and I consider
it reliable.

I'll verify it with a phone call later tonight.
Likely, he knows both the airplane and the crew.

Grant...


On Sat, May 4, 2013 at 5:56 PM, Rick Hawkins Java  wrote:

> Folks
>
> I've seen a Starship on the ground here at AHN, probably 5 or 8 years ago.
> I'm not sure that i would want one, even for $50,000
>
> thanks,
>
> xx rick
> Rick Hawkins
>
> www.javaphoto.com
> www.javacycles.com
> LETTERPRESSES FOR SALE
> www.ricktheprinter.com
> www.letterpressmachinery.com
> __**_
> http://www.okiebenz.com
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> http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/
>
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>
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Re: [MBZ] starship sighting...

[Rich Thomas]

There is one that flies around here occasionally, it is very noisy.

--R (sent from my miniPad)

On May 4, 2013, at 8:04 PM, Allan Streib  wrote:

Hm... maybe more likely an Avanti...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piaggio_P.180_Avanti

Only saw it for a few seconds.

Allan Streib  writes:

> Saw an unusual airplane climbing out of our local airport today.  Canard
> configuration with pusher propellors on the trailing side of the main
> wings.  Was quite sure I'd never seen anything like it so did a bit of
> googling revealing what it likely was:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beechcraft_Starship
> 
> -- 
> Allan Streib
> 
> ___
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-- 
Allan Streib

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Re: [MBZ] starship sighting...

[Craig]

On Sat, 04 May 2013 19:58:39 -0400 Mitch Haley  wrote:

> Allan Streib wrote:
> > Saw an unusual airplane climbing out of our local airport today.
> > Canard configuration with pusher propellors on the trailing side of
> > the main wings.  Was quite sure I'd never seen anything like it so
> > did a bit of googling revealing what it likely was:
> > 
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beechcraft_Starship
> 
> Let's see, if you spend $300 million designing it and getting it
> certified, and then sell 53 of them for 3.9 million each, your gross
> profit before production costs is...oops.


As of January 2010, nine Starships hold an active registration with the
FAA. Three Starships are registered in Oklahoma (NC-29, NC-35 & NC-45),
one in Texas (NC-50), one in Colorado (NC-51), and four are registered to
Hawker Beechcraft in Wichita, Kansas (NC-2, NC-8, NC-19 & NC-24).[33]
NC-51 was used as a chase plane during the re-entry phase of Burt Rutan's
SpaceShipOne.[34] In October 2008 NC-29 was the first of the five
remaining privately owned airworthy Starships to complete RVSM
certification, returning the aircraft's service ceiling to the original
FL410 limit.[35]

Evergreen Air Center sold 24 Starships back to private owners for $50,000
each.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] starship sighting...

[Allan Streib]

Hm... maybe more likely an Avanti...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piaggio_P.180_Avanti

Only saw it for a few seconds.

Allan Streib  writes:

> Saw an unusual airplane climbing out of our local airport today.  Canard
> configuration with pusher propellors on the trailing side of the main
> wings.  Was quite sure I'd never seen anything like it so did a bit of
> googling revealing what it likely was:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beechcraft_Starship
>
> -- 
> Allan Streib
>
> ___
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> For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
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>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

-- 
Allan Streib

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Re: [MBZ] starship sighting...

[Mitch Haley]

Allan Streib wrote:

Saw an unusual airplane climbing out of our local airport today.  Canard
configuration with pusher propellors on the trailing side of the main
wings.  Was quite sure I'd never seen anything like it so did a bit of
googling revealing what it likely was:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beechcraft_Starship



Let's see, if you spend $300 million designing it and getting it certified, and 
then sell 53 of them for 3.9 million each, your gross profit before production 
costs is...oops.


Mitch.

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