Re: [meteorite-list] Fusion Crust
In the totally for what its worth category... As to what the crust might be like chemically , I'll have to think it through more but what comes to mind first is instead of much magnetite ( Iron Oxide: Fe3O4)) which gives OCs that velvet look, one might find the variations on the nickel iron carbides and carbonates. Probably very little carbonate because it tends to decompose at earthly reentry temperature. Magnetite it seems is formed but gets recycled. Iron Carbide has a graphite-like metallic color. The thermal decomposition of carbon dioxide has been investigated behind reflected shock waves at temperatures of 3200–4600K and pressures of 45–100kPa BUT The CO2 decomposition occurs in two steps at temperatures near 773 K: First wustite (FeO) reacts with CO2 to form carbon monxide (CO) and magnetite (Fe3O4); then CO disproportionates to C(gr) and CO2. Fe3O4 can be recycled to Fe1-yO by thermal dissociation above 2200 K... Iron minerals: iron carbide (cementite) or iron carbonate (siderite) nickel minerals nickle carbide (cohenite) and nickle carbonate (zaratite) The Nickel-Iron intermediary minerals ferro-nickel carbide(Haxonite ) ferro-nickel magnesium carbonate ( Gaspeite). All of the carbides have been found in meteorites already. The carbonates probably many have been after terrestrial alteration on earth. Like was said would be really insightful if we were able to take stock of a meteorite's crust on the surface of Mars. Elton __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Roadside Hunting and Ownership
Related to that, I did an ad hoc study once going down the British Museum's Catalog of Meteorites as to what profession finds the most meteorites: Farmers, Bedouins, and Grave Diggers seem to be the at the top. Elton On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 12:27 AM, Count Deiro countde...@earthlink.net wrote: Hi Brian and List. Brian has asked what about cemetaries. Most plots in cemetaries are obtained under a lease in perpetuity. The decedent and survivors to the lease do not have rights to the land or anything under, or on it, unless specified in the lease terms. They are basically renting it. Best to all, Guido __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Critical Assessment of the Comet as Provider of Earth's Waters
What do we know about the origin of the earth's oceans? Is it more likely that they derive from icy comets that struck the young earth or from material released from the earth's interior during volcanic activity? Full Article at http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=what-do-we-know-about-the Tobias C. Owen of the Institute for Astronomy in Honolulu, Hawaii, offers this overview: This is a very good question, because we do not yet have an answer that everyone accepts. The origin of the oceans goes back to the time of the earth's formation 4. 6 billion years ago, when our planet was forming through the accumulation of smaller objects, called planetesimals. There are basically three possible sources for the water. It could have (1) separated out from the rocks that make up the bulk of the earth; (2) arrived as part of a late-accreting veneer of water- rich meteorites, similar to the carbonaceous chondrites that we see today; or (3) arrived as part of a late-accreting veneer of icy planetesimals, that is, comets. The composition of the ocean offers some clues as to its origin. If all the comets contain the same kind of water ice that we have examined in Comets Halley and Hyakutake- -the only ones whose water molecules we've been able to study in detail-- then comets cannot have delivered all the water in the earth's oceans. We know this because the ice in the comets contains twice as many atoms of deuterium (a heavy isotope of hydrogen) to each atom of ordinary hydrogen as we find in seawater. At the same time, we know that the meteorites could not have delivered all of the water, because then the earth's atmosphere would contain nearly 10 times as much xenon (an inert gas) as it actually does. Meteorites all carry this excess xenon. Nobody has yet measured the concentration of xenon in comets, but recent laboratory experiments on the trapping of gases by ice forming at low temperatures suggest that comets do not contain high concentrations of the xenon. A mixture of meteoritic water and cometary water would not work either, because this combination would still contain a higher concentration of deuterium than is found in the oceans. Hence, the best model for the source of the oceans at the moment is a combination of water derived from comets and water that was caught up in the rocky body of the earth as it formed. This mixture satisfies the xenon problem. It also appears to solve the deuterium problem--but only if the rocky material out near the earth's present orbit picked up some local water from the solar nebula (the cloud of gas and dust surrounding the young sun) before they accreted to form the earth. Some new laboratory studies of the manner in which deuterium gets exchanged between hydrogen gas and water vapor have indicated that the water vapor in the local region of the solar nebula would have had about the right (low) proportion of deuterium to balance the excess deuterium seen in comets. The point to emphasize here is that this is a model, a working hypothesis that must be rigorously tested by many additional measurements. We need to study more comets. We also need to learn more about the water on Mars, where we have another chance to investigate the sources described above. On the earth, plate tectonics has caused oceanic water to mix considerably with material from the planet's interior; such contamination probably did not occur on Mars, where plate tectonics does not seem to occur. These investigations (and other related studies) are currently under way. This is an active area of research! James C. G. Walker of the University of Michigan confirms that conclusion, adding his perspective: The best current thinking is that volatiles (elements and compounds, including water, that vaporize at low temperatures) were released from the solid phase as the earth accreted. Thus, the earth and its oceans and atmosphere grew together. During accretion, the kinetic energy of the colliding planetesimals was converted into thermal energy, so the earth grew extremely hot as it came together. The material forming the earth was probably too hot for ice to have been a major carrier of water. Most of the water was probably present originally as water trapped in clay minerals or as separate hydrogen (in hydrocarbons) and oxygen (in iron oxides), rather than as ice. Since the end of the period of accretion, more than four billion years ago, there has been a continual exchange of volatile material--including water--between the surface of the earth and the planet's interior (that is, between the crust and the mantle). Volcanoes release water and carbon dioxide to the atmosphere and ocean. Subduction of sediments rich in volatiles takes place at deep ocean trenches. The sinking of oceanic crust at subduction zones carries water and carbon dioxide back into the mantle. These processes can all be seen at work today. In short, icy cometary material probably has not been important in providing water
[meteorite-list] OT-Who is redfig2@yahoo or on Ebay?
I and a dozen met list members are on his robot spam list. I would like to let him know that his address book has been compromised. Elton __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fireballs Explode over Russia (Video)
It is failry good for homemade special effects but: bogus bogus bogus. The mental midgets in the MUFON and End of Time2012 groups are abuzz with giddy little digital back slaps because they finally have video proof about aliens (rolling eyes) that no one can refute. Well gosh refute this. The trajectory into and out of the clouds along with the time of reappearance are mis-matched: The apparent speed of the fireball would speed up --not slow down. The fireball would have had to stop and pause behind the clouds in this clip. Did the fireballs turn off while behind the clouds? Why do we not see the illuminatiion of/through the clouds. Why did the fireballs take a J turn away from the photographers point of view? ETc ETc. Elton On 7/29/12, Chris Peterson c...@alumni.caltech.edu wrote: Assuming it's not doctored video, I'd say this is space debris. There's nothing to suggest it gets close to the ground. Meteors stop being luminous while still many kilometers high, unless they are crater producers... and we would have heard about that! Chris *** Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com On 7/29/2012 11:19 AM, Shawn Alan wrote: Hello Listers, With all the meteor sightings and you tube videos happening more and more, here is another video to add to the list :). I am not sure what to say about the video, but I have to say its cool to watch. Down below is the introduction to the article and the link to the website with the video, enjoy. An amazing video on YouTube shows streaking fireballs bursting through the atmosphere and striking the ground somewhere in Russia. The video, designated as a UFO sighting by the channel owner, includes the rarest of moments, when an apparent meteor becomes a meteorite by actually striking the Earth. Two amazed Russians, in the right place, at the right time and armed with a good video camera, stand in awe as the streaking fireballs appear in the morning sky and plummet through the atmosphere. http://news.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474981503412 Shawn Alan __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Question
Supernova's produced all the elements but it isn't gold nor iron Sulfide you are dealing with. Actually from description it is likely: iron nickle chloride (FeNi)Cl2 Sorry but you now have a sample of the mineral lawrencite on your specimen. Yes lawrencite of meteorite wasting fame http://www.mindat.org/min-2351.html Peter, wold you say that parts of it look like hemispherical translucent golden insect eggs? Elton On 7/12/12, Peter Scherff petersche...@rcn.com wrote: Hi Pete, Without seeing the sample I am just guessing but it might be iron sulfide. Peter -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of pshu...@messengersfromthecosmos.com Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2012 6:18 PM To: The List Subject: [meteorite-list] Question I have a puzzelment on one of my UNWA's. There are a number of yellow very shiney blebs in a dark brown matrix. Two of the blebs are on oposite sides of the slice as near as I can tell directly accross from each other. These are the largest of all the blebs, at 1X2 mm in size. Any thoughts? If they were copper, they would have tarnished. I don't think brass is possible, So I'm left with, dare I say, gold? Do supernovas produce elements much higher than iron? Pete __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] [Meteorites] http://phys.org/news184402061.html
Not taking from what Pete said, lonsdalite isn't a newly identified mineral, per se. It has been around a few years but the explanation as to how both types of crystals formed during entry is bogus. Boron nitrate may or may not be formed on exposure to atmospheric nitrogen-- but it would only be on the surface and not in the interior. I haven't read the background on boron nitrate's formation conditions but I can't imagine a scenario that could impart any nitrogen into the COLD interior during entry. Either way the text for this report doesn't pass the smell test. As to lonsdaleite, entry pressures short of cosmic velocity impact with the ground are not high enough to create this polymorph of carbon. It is far more probable that lonsdalite is literally burned up in the presence of atmospheric oxygen as fast as it is uncovered. Lonsdalite is the mineral form found in carbonados. Its pentamount hardness is why drill bit manufacturers had to embed them uncut directly in the the bit casting. Until the recently found technique cutting/burning with a laser, there was nothing that could cut them. Another case of a out of work sports writer moonlighting as a science writer perhaps? If this is the researcher's real belief then he is advocating a whole new arm of physics/chemistry. Elton On 6/30/12, pshu...@messengersfromthecosmos.com pshu...@messengersfromthecosmos.com wrote: Hello list, The implications of these findings are, to say the least, staggering. has this been confirmed in other Ureilite meteorites? Such as Novo Urie, or others? For years, diamonds were the standard of hardness, and now that's all out the window Pete __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] [Meteorites] http://phys.org/news184402061.html
Errata: Boron NITRIDE ( BN) not nitrATE (B(NO3)3)--(Bad spell checker-- Bad, bad!) On 7/1/12, MstrEman mstre...@gmail.com wrote: Not taking from what Pete said, lonsdalite isn't a newly identified mineral, per se. It has been around a few years but the explanation as to how both types of crystals formed during entry is bogus. Boron nitrate may or may not be formed on exposure to atmospheric nitrogen-- but it would only be on the surface and not in the interior. I haven't read the background on boron nitrate's formation conditions but I can't imagine a scenario that could impart any nitrogen into the COLD interior during entry. Either way the text for this report doesn't pass the smell test. As to lonsdaleite, entry pressures short of cosmic velocity impact with the ground are not high enough to create this polymorph of carbon. It is far more probable that lonsdalite is literally burned up in the presence of atmospheric oxygen as fast as it is uncovered. Lonsdalite is the mineral form found in carbonados. Its pentamount hardness is why drill bit manufacturers had to embed them uncut directly in the the bit casting. Until the recently found technique cutting/burning with a laser, there was nothing that could cut them. Another case of a out of work sports writer moonlighting as a science writer perhaps? If this is the researcher's real belief then he is advocating a whole new arm of physics/chemistry. Elton On 6/30/12, pshu...@messengersfromthecosmos.com pshu...@messengersfromthecosmos.com wrote: Hello list, The implications of these findings are, to say the least, staggering. has this been confirmed in other Ureilite meteorites? Such as Novo Urie, or others? For years, diamonds were the standard of hardness, and now that's all out the window Pete __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Ontario Meteor over 200 reports
The orbital parameters have been checked and they do not match the orbit of the NEO Elton __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Ontario Meteor over 200 reports
--move along here-- nothing to see-- move along. (Whispering to Jonathan) S...Sh...Hush! Your type of scientific reasoning is heresy on related lists composed of Esteemed Inquisitors and Elf Ostriches who look at the sky by night and stick their head in the sand by day. The mandated wisdom in Oz is that it is impossible to have a debris stream associated with NEOs --and with their head in places where the sun never shines-- they can truthfully state that they have never seen a connection, so no bother to look into it. Their admonition is do not look at the Little Elf behind the curtain and speak no more of green fireballs in the land of Oz. It is an inside joke Jonathan. The point is that we will never know unless we make inquiry. There are a lot of self-styled experts that say it is impossible for NEOs to have stragglers. Elton . On 6/15/12, Jonathan E. Dongell jdong...@cox.net wrote: Dear List, Just curious... This meteor fireball passed at approx 22:00 hrs on 6/14/12. There was also a near-earth astroid 2012LZ1 (nearly a city block wide) that was supposed to pass by at approx 23:00 hrs on 6/14/12. Could this have been a co-traveler (stragler) with the 2012LZ1 main mass? Any relation? Anybody know? Jonathan - Original Message - From: drtanuki drtan...@yahoo.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 9:31 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Ontario Meteor over 200 reports Dear List, This event was seen by hundreds. Breaking News -MBIQ Detects Ontario, Canada Meteor Fireball 14JUN2012 Breaking Meteor News - MBIQ Detects Ontario, Canada Meteor Fireball ~21:54 14JUN2012 http://thelatestworldwidemeteorreports.blogspot.com/ http://lunarmeteoritehunters.blogspot.com/ Dirk Ross...Tokyo __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Possible Bolide Over Lebanon, Cyprus and Turkey 7JUN2012
Good call George. The trail has been tentatively linked to a Russian ICBM-class missile launched from southeast Russia. I don't remember if this was a reliability test or a scientific package. A commentator elsewhere suggested this was spewing fuel from a tumbling booster. The pattern is similar to other trails where high level winds aloft are disbursing the exhaust unevenly. I believe we have a photo(s) of a meteor trail which shows an apparent zig-zaging pattern. To the ground observer, it may look like a constant altitude but the trail is being laid down as the rocket is passing through several flight levels where winds can be moving laterally at different speeds but in an overall general direction. Elton __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Hammer fall term
Sales of hour carbonaceous chondrite encrusted dead horse floggers are hereby held until we can modify our hoc-stock with hammer stone harvested, hand-wrapped hammer handles hurriedly hacked from houses hammered by hammer fall hunks. Hammer fall stones, country mail boxes, Malibus, sun shades or drywall crumbs may have had substitutions at our sole discretion. Caution: hammer stones may help cause horrendous headaches, heartburn and hotflashes and should be havoided. hAd Hauseum er ad nauseum. hI hapologize. hElton On 6/12/12, cdtuc...@cox.net cdtuc...@cox.net wrote: Regine, MikeG, I hate to beat a dead horse but, There actually could be such a thing as a Hammer Fall. Take Carancas for example; This fall was not only observed but, it hit a man made water well and killed a couple of animals while excavating a crater. This fall is generally accepted as a Hammer Fall because we believe it was one huge stone that crashed and exploded. So, then the question is; Is this a hammer stone as well? Of coarse it is. That is IF it was indeed caused by one single stone that exploded on impact. This is a fact that is in dispute amongst Scientists. There may have been a swarm of stones that hit at once. We do have evidence of this in stones that were found that were nearly fully fusion crusted. Had it been just one single stone where did the nearly fully crusted stones come from? This lends doubt that in fact all of the stones are Hammer Stones. However, from a sales standpoint. Having one of these ultra rare fully crusted stones would not be such a bad thing to have. I would think they would be far more rare and therefore far more valuable to both the collector (museum) or Scientist for the simple reason of aesthetics and that it does make for an interesting argument about how many stones did fall. As for the use of the word Michael Blood coined Hammer. He could just of easily have used any number of other words to describe this end result. Swatter, clapper, striker or anything else one does with an object in his had while hitting something. The other really funny term is the use of the word Fall at all. I mean try to explain that to a newby? I mean after all, Aren't all meteorites Falls in the true sense of the word. How else could they have gotten here? So, the use of this term necessitates an explanation. You have to explain that not all meteorites are falls. A newby would look at you like you are nuts. The word fresh fall would make more sense but, most of the time the Fresh is left out. Even when a stone is called a fresh Fall science can only determine the time it fell within years not hour or minutes so even then... If you find a stone. How do you really know when it fell. You did find a fall but was it fresh? Or does it just look fresh? Too Funny. Best, Carl meteoritemax -- Cheers Regine P. fips_br...@yahoo.de wrote: Well, I'm referring to an overall suspicious odour when it comes to hammer falls on sales pages. It is so imprecise - as many other things related to it. What comes to my mind right now is that I downloaded a small jpg once from a website on hammers when I started getting interested in the historic side of meteorites. I was new to the subject and took the picture as a genuine photograph of a man from the New Concord area sitting on a dead colt which seemed to be collateral damage. I researched my arse off only to find out that the photo is not related and the incident most likely never happened. The unreliability of the New Concord horse kill has been discussed several times on the list in the meantime, yet the picture is still on the website. I hear you say these things are completely unrelated, and perhaps they are. And in the end this might all be peanuts even. Actually, right now, I ask myself what the heck I'm doing here. I actually enjoy doing the detective work on which account is true and which is doubtful! But why anyone actively wants to play a part in the confusion other than to cash in is a mystery to me. Enough said, Best wishes, Regine Von: Michael Gilmer meteoritem...@gmail.com An: Regine P. fips_br...@yahoo.de CC: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Gesendet: 20:20 Dienstag, 12.Juni 2012 Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Hammer fall term Hi Regine, I can't argue that point. I can only say that we (as meteorite buffs) should do our best to educate the newbies, or make resources available that will educate the newbies. I think many of us do that. I also think we could do better if we really tried. But I don't think everyone who uses the term hammer fall is engaging in marketing or trying to mislead people for financial gain. Maybe some dealers do that. If they do, I don't agree with that and they should stop. But the term hammer fall probably isn't going away, and if it does, it will be replaced by another term that means
Re: [meteorite-list] hollow meteorite on ebay
Dear Werner Nope!!! there are no hollow meteorites, as physics wouldn't allow one-- and this is not a meteorite: it is a sedimentary nodule composed of any combination of iron compounds such as hematite/goethite/limonite -- known by its slang term indian paint pot in the US. These hollow nodules form in a complex replacement/substitution/mineralization with (Iron, sulfur, oxide and hydroxide) of organic objects--such as drift wood or fecal pellets which have been through a cycle of burial in an oxygen depleted(anoxic?) muck while the ground water's chemistry and temperatures change. Left to weather in an oxygen-saturated, soil-environment, it will revert to red and yellow ocher. Being a source of ocher-a typical pigment of aboriginal body paint, we assume gave rise to the other mis-identification indian paint pot. So...this was not a meteorite in origin and the label illustrates the state of poor meteoritical understanding both in the Victorian era and with the general public today. All the historical labels in the world won't change the fact that this was misidentified when it entered someone's collection originally. Given the 22 bids and $280+ thus far, it tells me that there are a lot of suckers who haven't bothered to gurd themselves with even the basics. So the mis-identification may continue another 100 years, long past the Elizabethan Dos and Charlesian eras of the future. I am curious as to the situation when or if they apply for an export permit: Surely someone in the chain of review will detect the bad identification . Even if so, will they let the sell go through to be shipped as fossil poop of unknown origin. Elton On 6/10/12, WS Schroer schr...@bigpond.com wrote: Hello listees, I just found this interesting looking specimen on ebay. http://tinyurl.com/6teew4b Are there any other hollow meteorites out there? ;) Cheers Werner Schroer Australia __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Jason Utas in Met News
Way to go Jason! Great article--written very well. Also great photos. Elton On 5/17/12, drtanuki drtan...@yahoo.com wrote: Dear List, List member Jason Utas makes the news: http://lunarmeteoritehunters.blogspot.jp/2012/05/latest-worldwide-meteormeteorite-news_18.html Jason Utas, a junior majoring in geology and psychology at the University of California, Berkeley, developed a passion for meteorites after his father gave him one at age eight. ... Dirk Ross...Tokyo __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Never underestimate or dismiss Spectroscopy
Dear Benjamin, I can see your argument and I got you point of preference but I don't get the resistance to accepting the facts regarding the current scheme of meteorite classification or the parallel field of parent bodies. I've already said several times when it is considered correct to connect HED clan meteorites to Vesta but there are 2 (count'em 2) simple caveats. Maybe you knew but I am not sure the rest of the list knew that we've some non Vestian Eucrites. I am not sure that the other folks also know of the large number of Vesta Family asteroids which could also have delivered meteorites to our orbit. Belaboring the point that I should have addressed earlier, Vesta's present orbit may or may not be able to deliver HED's directly to Earth. I defer to those who calculate orbital mechanics to say when or if. Some asteroids cannot send samples our way or so I have been told, yet, we have been able to classify them via spectra. One of those wee far flung fragments is spectraly identical to the Vesta family(IIRC) but owing to some analysis it can't be apart of the Vesta system:never was and it can't deliver samples here to Earth. Collectors won't find that interesting but planetary scientist might theorize that there were several proto-planets/planetesimals which reached an eerily similar stage of development then stopped and that would keep them occupied long into their PhD.s As for grouping it isn't as simplistic as you advocate. I don't make the rules so I don't group meteorites-- that is for the Non-Com, I believe and whatever the past use of the word eucrite it doesn't apply to the meteorite classification in use but thanks for the trivia. I understand by convention, it takes a minimum of three examples to establish a group in any of our meteorite classifications but that has not been strictly applied to Lunars and most Martians. There we allow chemistry and fabric to suffice as sub descriptors because frankly there is more variability than the HEDs show. However, this is a moot point because eucrites are not classified as anomalous and agreed maybe they should be to differentiate (no pun) origins. We had this discussion you and I but it bears repeating. Eucrite mono/poly mict is a classification based on a specific rock texture and says nothing as to origin parent body but, everything as to where within a given body it originated. Under your theory of classification by origin , we could have hundreds of groups based common parent body origins of common chondrites. Instead we classify them on the basis of mineralogy, metal content, matrix, and degree of metamorphism. Martins are based on origin along with sub-classification as to rock texture as in SNC and ditto with Lunars. They are true planetary bodies and show a more diversified geology. So stand by for Veneusian and Mercurian the VENs and MERCs at a Non-Com near you. We know that all mesosiderites come from 2(or 3) commingled parent bodies but mesosiderite isn't an origin based classification. When we do find an meso-outlyer will we call it anomalous? I don't know-- ask the Non-Com how they will rule. Classification has migrated into new schemes as the tools of science advance and maybe some day there will be a renaming of eucrites to reflect an origin other than 4 Vesta. You are more than welcome to describe your Eucrite as from Vesta but in the planetary science we understand that each body liberated from Vesta proper has its own impact and thermal histories and this may someday reveal more about the history of the solar system. Someday we will have a catalog of each's mineralogy and in depth. Meanwhile we modify our nomenclature to match our understanding. Today all I am asking ..well sharing is that what we've always heard about HEDs and Vesta technically are not accurate or or non-proven but close enough for government work as the cliche` goes. My points were it is generally acceptable amongst collectors to refer to Vesta as the source of HEDs but to the researcher it is not, unless everyone in the discussion understands the caveats aforementioned. I realize everyone is not here for the technical side but at the time I felt it worth mentioning in a side note that all Eucrites are NOT from Vesta. And those that aren't are pretty darn interesting in and of themselves. Elton On 5/16/12, Benjamin P. Sun bpsun2...@gmail.com wrote: If a dealer or someone were to claim that their Tatahouine or NWA 2060 came from Vesta, I would not counter or argue with him. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Never underestimate or dismiss Spectroscopy
Me thinks we are in violent agreement. Elton __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Never underestimate or dismiss Spectroscopy
The DAWN mission Public Affairs Office(?) wrote, Recent results of the Dawn mission show that the asteroid Vesta is the only known remnant from a big early phase of planet formation. In Clintonesque fashion: the truth of this assertion rest on what the definition of known is. Vesta is NOT the only known remnant in the minds of those that have looked into the early solar system composition. It may, for the present, be the only known --up close example that mankind has visited. It would be bad science reporting if it were the intention in the first paragraph of this article to casually dismiss Ceres, Pallas and, a host of other smaller remnant, irregular chunks of planetary fragments whose spectrography has been studied and whose size indicates they would be well differentiated, else have been derived from a disrupted first or second generation planetesimal. With access to super computers, we've come a long way in the past decade to working backwards in time to identify past orbital distances, conflicts/collisions and the origins of asteroid families. Analysis of orbits, resonances, voids and etc., suggest that there were over 50 minor planets/secondary planetesimals present in the early solar system which are no longer in solar orbit as whole bodies.( i.e disrupted, ejected or absorbed). Earth has only sampled 5±% of the known disrupted bodies that we have spectra from and it remains frankly naive to couch the Dawn preliminary data as the Rosetta Stone for the early solar system. The admonition to never dismiss nor underestimate spectrographyhas been violated by this very article. The headline comes across as oblivious to the existing body of research. Generally speaking, stating to the HED clan of meteorites are mainly derived from Vesta is acceptable so long as we understand ( Caveat #1) that they could also be from any of the Vesta family: any of those 6000+ bodies populating the Vesta orbital region. Many of those are over 1 km size and most but not all have Vesta matching spectra/albedos. In light of a constant sound-bite-mentality in the media, it is easy to forget that Vesta is the largest remnant of a family of asteroids and no one can say with scientific certainty that a given meteorite came from Vesta-proper vs being from one of the Vesta clan.Without this knowledge, a new comer to the meteorite collecting hobby might naively believe that we know for absolute certainty that a particular HED is only from 4 Vesta-proper to the exclusion of all other existing bodies. The second caveat is covered elsewhere in recent list commentary: the fact that we do have some non-Vestian eucrites was panned as insignificant. Well, Au contraire-- the existence of a but a solitary example is proof that the basaltic, sub/minor-planetary differentiation process happened on more than a single body. Adding credibility to the planetary-science model.Naively stating over and over that all eucrites come from Vesta won't make it true. Doing so retards the advancement meteorite science. While I think the results from Dawn are significant. It is hard to compete with manned space flight and asteroid landings for due attention. Scientist tend to be giddy over their mission success but fail to fully convey the real picture to the journalist-- whose first obligatory action is to strip the interview of caveats and transpose as least two values.(sarcasm) This press piece isn't the big picture by any means but an important part of laying out the jigsaw pieces in more orderly fashion. I do trust the scientist a lot more than I do the press so I look forward to what is really said by them. Elton __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Vesta HED's
Keep in mind that there are now some non-Vesta originating eucrites identified. So the pass state of knowledge holding that all HEDs were from Vesta should be qualified with a caveat that Most all eucrites are from Vesta or with rare exception... or all most all... Elton On 5/11/12, Benjamin P. Sun bpsun2...@gmail.com wrote: This is not a surprise to me... or to most of us. But it may be news to some of you out there.. http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.cfm?release=2012-132 https://asunews.asu.edu/20120510_Vesta Data also confirm a distinct group of meteorites found on Earth did, as theorized, originate from Vesta. The signatures of pyroxene, an iron- and magnesium-rich mineral, in those meteorites match those of rocks on Vesta's surface. These objects account for about 6 percent of all meteorites seen falling on Earth. This makes the asteroid one of the largest single sources for Earth's meteorites. The finding also marks the first time a spacecraft has been able to visit the source of samples after they were identified on Earth. “Dawn observations enabled us to recognize that there are actually TWO large basins at the south pole, an older one named “Veneneia” and a younger one named “Rheasilvia”,” explains Williams. The Rheasilvia basin dominates the geology of Vesta, as the basin itself and its impact ejecta cover most of the southern hemisphere. The center of Rheasilvia has a central peak taller than Mt. Everest or Mauna Loa on Earth, similar in height to Olympus Mons on Mars. This basin appears to have excavated into the mantle of Vesta, exposing material spectrally similar to diogenite meteorites; Vesta’s crust is spectrally similar to eucrite and howardite meteorites, thus confirming that Vesta and its family of asteroids are the source of the howardite-eucrite-diogenite (HED) family of basaltic achondrite meteorites. “For most planets and moons we see the pictures first, then have samples collected later to confirm our geologic interpretations. In the case of Vesta, thanks to the HED meteorites, we have the samples first, and must try to relate them to our emerging geologic picture of Vesta from the Dawn mission,” __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Bogus Tissint Martian on eBay
Yea-huh, the tektite portion from this same meteorite is a good clue that this seller hasn't a clue. Elton On 4/29/12, Michael Gilmer meteoritem...@gmail.com wrote: Hi List, Any experienced collector can tell in 2 seconds that this is not Tissint. In the past, I would politely contact these sellers and inform them that their offering is not what they claim it is. Of course, this resulted in hostile reponses 99% of the time, so now I just warn the public and let the seller wallow in their own crapulence. Bogus Tissint - http://www.ebay.com/itm/290704709783 Buyer Beware. MikeG -- --- Galactic Stone Ironworks - MikeG Web: http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone Twitter: http://twitter.com/GalacticStone RSS: http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 --- __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Moon rocks Cases and outcomes
This my recollection about the dust history. I do not recall the story about accidental exposure but it is as likely as not. Other than Bean's claim there were two incidences of dust escaping government control. One was the Hasselblad film magazine which was dropped into the dust and was the one talked about in this story. The other was the dry cleaner in Coco Beach that had been awarded the contract to clean NASA space suits. The magazine was returned under purchase/work order to Hasselblad for inspection and refurbishment as necessary. The dust was collected with scotch tape as I recall. The purchase order did not include the requirement for Hasslblad to return anything other than the hardware. I do not remember the entire exchange but pretty much like Obama asking pretty please give us our drone back Hasslblads and their subcontractor said Nicht. About this time congress decided ooops the samples could get pilfered so we better pass an all encompassing law against ownership by anyone other than the US Government et.al. No one in the history of this list was able to ever find that enactment and I have asked NASA repeatedly under Ignored FOIA to cite chapter and verse where private ownership is disallowed.(sic) I believe the US code or law says title remains with the Government. I believe-- armed with this new law, NASA went back to German court where the German law regarding retroactive laws was not enforceable and the contract stood as submitted and was fulfilled by Hassleblad--OR so I read somewhere in collage in an international law case study. The enterprizing dry cleaner realized far ahead of NASA that dust would be coming back and he could reap a fortune in resales if he got the dry cleaning contract. He low balled the contract and bidded his time through all the early Apollo missions doing as contracted: waiting on 11 and 12 and might have even been into cleaning 14s suits when NASA got wind and came looking for the dust--which again had not been addressed in the contract. The dry cleaner lost in Federal Court. The Government cited the above law/regulations and exceptional research potential that gave the public overriding interest. ( I did not know that NASA ever has conducted the impact of moon dust on body hair, sweat and urine mixtures) but that I understand was what happened to the dry cleaning dust. The scotch tape specimens were sold at a foreign auction several years ago and was snipped into smaller slivers for subsequent sale. I don't know what became of the slivers but did see a webpage offering them for sale-- POR: Price on request. I may (or may not --wink wink) have a sample from a certain Soviet mission return capsule that went to the surface of the moon and returned to earth. The ownership of said sample was in limbo owing to the reorganization of the legal system post Soviet Era and at the time of purchase, Russian law was silent on former soviet property. However the provenance was back to the Soviet pilot who the sample was officially awarded the cloth. If anyone does find the case law, US Title/chapter or in the CFRs please share. It may be that I can't legally own Apollo material but Sterling or Bernd might have no such restrictions. I think MASA(sic) just strong-armed Aldrin(?) over the return of his Lunar camera. Elton __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Rare Meteorite Strikes Roof in Norway
Hummm,,, Strikes the ground at up to1000kph and not a single fireball or sonic boom report? Is this a new twist to the current wisdom about meteorite producing events? Elton __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Speed that meteors enter dark flight?
The simple answer is it depends on a lot of changing factors and broadly ranging bounded assumptions. I can only share some of those here to show why it is not a an easy answer. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_coefficient For one of those assumptions, you have to select amongst some drag coefficients/cross-sections. Typically: sphere, half sphere, cone and streamlined. One might assume that anything tumbling with sharp edges is really facing high sheer forces and more likely to shear apart. The drag cross section governs the air dampening of the gravity acceleration which typically lies between 120-400 miles per hour terminal velocity. This in itself requires choosing an assumption. The formulas in the link require an air density (aka fluid density) average value as it isn't set up for a changing density which can be considerable in a steep trajectory. There is a general acceptance that the air is too thick below 5 miles/8 km above sea level for a meteor below 1 meter to maintain incandescence velocities. ( 88% of the atmosphere lies at or below 7 miles) Air density is increasing at a dramatically increasing rate. In some respect so long as it is a deep penetration to say under 12miles there should be ample distance to travel to a point of all cosmic velocity being bled off and fall from gravity acceleration alone. We'll assume a range of 4000-4500 kph for retardation. One has to estimate a mass where total cosmic velocity can be expended: which can be up to 10 tons/9000kg according to the AMS faq page. I've also heard up to one meter but if you want to choose a typical value pick 1kg. One has to also integrate an acceleration factor as gravity is at work even during retardation to extinction( note: retardation point is used in our science but may be a misnomer but I won't get into a crust argument). So there is quiet a bit in the way of assumptions and perhaps a lot more inaccuracy of accepted values. Since we are in the I wonder mode-- lets choose a surrogate meteorite/oid which has more data: http://hypertextbook.com/facts/JianHuang.shtml Freefall parachutist records. Captain Joseph Kittinger entered the record books when he stepped from the gondola of a helium balloon floating at an altitude of 31,330 m (102,800 feet) and took the longest skydive in history He fell for four minutes and 36 seconds, reaching a maximum speed of 614 miles per hour (988 km/h before opening his parachute at 18,000 feet (5,500 m). It takes an average sky diver 14±1 to fall one mile. according to a graphic (pdf) on this page: http://www.greenharbor.com/fffolder/math.html and a skydiver will fall about 10,000ft. in one minute including the 12 seconds to reach terminal velocity of 120mph. All that said it Chris's answer is pretty much within a 3-10 second limit and impact in under 2 minutes max 95% of the time. Elton Sorry for all the co-mingling of metric and SAE values. On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 1:58 PM, Chris Peterson c...@alumni.caltech.edu wrote: It depends on the mass of the body. But realistically, under typical conditions that might lead to meteorite production, I think it's safe to say that this happens almost instantly. For example, a 100 kg stone that survives to 20 km height will be experiencing a deceleration of ~1500 m/s^2. A 10 kg stone will experience ~4000 m/s^2. Of course, no stone is likely to survive the forces that would result without breaking up. You need to play all sorts of games with different parameters for mass, speed, and height to find survivable scenarios. They all produce a very short period of dark flight before terminal velocity. This is why the retardation point is typically overhead any strewn field, and you don't usually have meteorites significantly down field from the retardation point. In fact, wind during dark flight may move meteorites farther than their last bit of momentum did- and that can be in any direction. Chris *** Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com On 3/7/2012 11:45 AM, Mike Hankey wrote: the follow up to this question/answer I still wonder about is: after dark flight begins, how many seconds will it take to completely decelerate so that all forward momentum is lost after dark flight starts. for example: if the meteor goes dark at 4km/s how many seconds before it will be at 0km/s and/or what does that deceleration curve look like? __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite?
There is an apparent weathering zone on this piece indicating some water intrusion and probably some leaching . It overlaps the supposed metal flakes without changing them. I think these flakes-- in absence of proof otherwise are mica flakes. I am not ready to rule this out or in but the matrix is on the hole very unmeteorite looking. Elton __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Hard Core
I've similar thoughts myself, Doug. In most all graphic depictions of the impact from 65my ago, they show the earth's land masses as they are arrayed today! Were they using a paleo-map circa late-cretaceous, I believe it would show the India plate right in the center of the anti-pode focii and would go a long way in connecting the Deccan mass basalt flows with Chuxilub. In like vein --but on the new close-up photos of Vesta, my initial impression was that there was a hump/bulge opposite a major crater. That taken with the circumscribing (equatorial) crinkles tends to bear out this kind of dynamics such that when a sphere is struck from one side it concentrates the energy in the opposite hemisphere. Elton On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 3:24 PM, MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com wrote: Very interesting article, though a bit presumptious IMO to assume they have the correct dynamic earth's crust configuration for 65 million years ago - but maybe they do? Princeton is of course, Dr. Keller's base, and this fits perfectly into her viable theory, whether it be by chance or design. Hope IO don't get Sterling started, though :-) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYG2GhBspXc Fifty million [sic] years ago You walked upon the planet so God of all that you could see, Just a little bit like me Walking in your footsteps... Kindest wishes Doug -Original Message- From: dorifry dori...@embarqmail.com To: meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tue, Oct 25, 2011 2:44 pm Subject: [meteorite-list] Hard Core Hard Core Meteorite Impact http://www.astrobio.net/pressrelease/4297/hard-core-meteorite-impact Nice graphics. Phil Whitmer Joshua Tree Earth Space Museum -- A neutrino walks into a bar and orders a Long Island ice tea. The bartender brings the drink. The neutrino says: How much?. No charge, says the barkeep. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Regarding Livingston News Articles, slander - Attn. M. Farmer
Thanks for the alert Jason very well spoken. Elton On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 8:39 AM, Jason Utas meteorite...@gmail.com wrote: Hello All, While perusing the sites pertaining to the fall, I've come across a number of comments by Michael Farmer. Here's a prime example (one of many): http://www.necn.com/04/23/10/Livingston-catches-hold-of-meteorite-fev/landing.html?blockID=221795feedID=4213 Now, I don't know who is actually doing this, but it seems pretty likely that they're a list-member. Seeing as computer IP addresses are logged in such cases, I would suggest that someone (Mike) might take legal action - namely since I believe that Mike really does have the legal grounds to do so. The only reason I'm posting this to the list is so that, when people see these, they know it's crap posted by...what appears to be another low-life on the list. Impersonating people isn't cool. Jason __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Offensive Postings was Questionable Ebay Listings
Brian Cox wrote: ...I will certainly try to be as respectful in my opinions and I request that everyone else be respectful of one another. One wonders how the same person could justify this post of in light of the above admonition for the list to be respectful? She sounds like an old whore from the Bunny Ranch( sic) who is selling the meteorites a Date paid her for services rendered to pay for a face and body lift and resculpting. AS to the conclusion that any woman is a whore because she lives in Nevada--Well that is flabbergastingly offensive. It is not funny but insightful as to who he is inside. The members of this list need to have a deep, abiding trust in the integrity of the people they do business with--or take advice from. At the core of that trust will be the material they sell is what it is claimed to be. This we gauge from demeanor and message traffic; especially using poor satire in an inappropriate context. We can see that know he don't know squat about meteorites but his implication that all women are whores may be more experience-based even if more offensive.. People tend to frame their assumptions in the framework of experiences they are familiar with.Of course he knows his mother -- I don't... but I hope she would be offended by that post as well. Is it a coincidence that the occurrence of a rash of a prankster / cyber terrorist activity coincides with Cox's arrival? Inquiring minds want to know... Elton Being an expert in Sh*t does not make one an expert in Shinola TM __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Clarifying Inaccuracies ... was Wisconsin find vs fall
Mr Cook, as you've email account has disappeared in the middle of a discussion perhaps you did so inadvertently so I am resending via the meteorite central list. I think the discussion merits sharing. --- On Sat, 4/17/10, Brien Cook cont...@briencook.com wrote: (private comments not disclosed-- not sent to list) Mr Cook, I beg to differ with your response You clearly didn't know the difference between a fall and a find when you posted or you would have used the correct term the first time as subsequent posts show. Now you create a mountain over a simple clarification to your usage. I enjoy mountain building leveling myself. The usual and least friction-causing response is to not respond and take note in subsequent discussion or just acknowledge with a thanks for pointing that out or a Learn something new everyday.You are most welcome to be as enthused as you care to be and express yourself in what ever poetry or prose you choose. However when you speak inaccurately you should also expect to have to pointed out.Most all here invite corrections so that the info discussed here remains reliable and current. That is the way it works now and how it has worked for 15 years. If you are not here to discuss all aspects of meteorites,which by default also includes technical and scientific accuracy then why are you here? (That is rhetorical)-- we were all novices once; some choose to remain self-absorbed and clueless; others become highly versed in the science, history and lore . most would like to be accurate in their comments. We've no way to know that you feel differently about what you post here. Many novices do become experts in their own right within the many subject areas meteorites cover. This enables the list as a whole to be the resource that is is. Novices come and go, some remain novices their whole stay as they keep the novice state of mind closed to new information. That said, everyone is encouraged to ask or comment and chime in on topics they choose. That is how accurate information gets spread around. Elton __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Strewnfield
Good idea James but one as to have access some of not all of recovery data. Meteorite hunters tend to form teams and don't share outside their team. The purpose for mapping the strewn field in early stages of the search is to develop a statistical tool called a distribution ellipse to aid in searching the most likely lands for recovery. The statistical goal is a 95% probability that 95% of the material lies within the elipse.* ( It is statistically non-productive to hunt outside the ellipse/box). One needs a good statistical program to crank out the ellipse unless they are a math whiz and don't mind staying up all night to refine calculations. Once an idea of the axis is firmed up, one would expect: in a shallow fall, that the heavier stones would have fallen at the far end of the axis and very close to the axis. In a steep fall, one might see a near circular ellipse with the heavier fragments in the center and smaller fragments on the outer edges. Either way, plotting an ellipse is the best early way to estimate where to concentrate searching. Just off the cuff, my initial impression for this fall is that the strewn field is no where near 10s of miles in length that the news agencies mentioned. The recoveries will be more concentrated based on the steep angle revealed by Doppler returns. Time will tell. As to accuracy and utility, just 3-4 closely spaced points are not much better than random guessing. However, 10- 20 or more widely spaced plots is probably very accurate in defining the ellipse. Refinement eventually shows the axis of the fall very accurately. The more points and the further away each point lies from others, the more reliable the predictive value of early plotting. A distribution ellipse is typically used by organized teams searching for crash debris. for example bu,t I don't know anyone else that uses the approach anymore. Meteorite hunters tend to not share locations early enough to make an ellipse of any use. Its value comes in revisiting the field after the initial chaos is over and one goes back to re-search the ground. In earlier times one would send out teams to search certain areas as daily finds are incorporated into the database. There can be more complications to plotting such as with multiple fragmentation. In this case one can see clusters of clusters within the ellipse which may skew the graph. All else I can say is that the plot is statistically more productive in recovering the most material in the long run than skimming the cream and leaving areas un-searched or over-searched. Eventual mapping of the recoveries in wrap up back at the office in order to graph the strewn field is an important part of the science of recovery. With the advent of satellite detection and other sensor measurements, the ellipse has fallen into disuse in favor of walking a grid and get the most the quickest. Map marks over dinner? Maybe but now days we would all enter the GPS fixes onto Google Maps via our wireless laptops. There is a FIreball working group on yahoo( FBWG) if anyone wants to start working a database for this fall. Elton * one measures the distance from each find to a hypothetical axis using root mean square calculations to find the true fall axis. On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 5:55 PM, James Balister balisterja...@att.net wrote: We are all on the list here so the mapping wont be that public. It would be a simple thing to do. Someone gets a map. Then when everyone gets together for dinner they can mark an X on the map where they found their rock. It can be a daily thing. By the end of the week everyone will have a good idea of what the field looks like. So who wants to donate a map? I know I would like to know where the meteorites are found in relation to the town. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Wisconsin Fireball - AMS Reports
Great work Mike. I always find interesting how many folks are mis-oriented as to which direction their front windows actually face. Randomly clicking on a few of the reports, they are consistent with the suspected flight path window ( unlike last years PA fireball AMS reports). I did note that most of these eyewitness accounts report a seemingly more shallow trajectory than we believe based on Doppler returns. Maybe someone will generate a Kmz file for both the flight path and above ground trajectory, time and data permitting. Again thanks for doing the nitty-gritty entry work. One never knows when they will be front and center to a fall and need to be familiar with the tools and methods to gather and share accurate information! Best of luck to all those out there searching and reading this on their iPhones. ( send us some GPS data when you are finished searching. I'll start plotting the strewn field and see what kind of distribution ellipse I can crank out.) Regards, Elton On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 7:33 PM, Mike Hankey mike.han...@gmail.com wrote: I've imported the AMS reports for the Wisconsin Fireball into google earth and uploaded the KMZ. Considering there were very nice radar returns and excellent video coverage and that multiple stones have already been found, the witness reports aren't that significant, but its still interesting to see all of the reports plotted and how far this thing could be seen. Its also a good exercise for folks who want to try and figure out the ground track from witness reports. Image: http://www.mikesastrophotos.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/livingston.jpg KMZ: http://www.mikesastrophotos.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/midwest-fireball-ams-google-earth.kmz Thanks, Mike __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Test delete
__ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Re super magnet
If you are in a hurry --an old inoperative hard drive will have two of the bugars and mounted on a non magnetic plate which you can brass screw the thing onto your cane. Elton-- On Fri, Dec 25, 2009 at 8:37 PM, Pete Shugar pshu...@clearwire.net wrote: What's a good source for a super magnet? How much? Pete IMCA1733 __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Steve Arnold (Elgin). Man of his word.
Dear Guy I think Bill serves the community at large to remind the list and newbies who know nothing about the real Steve-- so, sorry I strongly disagree that we should all use the delete button. Steve has contaminated our collections with his fake/mislabeled/ relabeled specimens. Conversely Steve could have spent his time acting responsibly and not being a @##. Where is YOUR indignation at Steve? And George? Is Steve a dealer or not? Sure acts like one but he says he is not one. Yeah yeah yeah yada yada ---but how many have gotten fake meteorites and how many have been outright cheated out of what they paid for? --You folks that defend Steve's giveaways are kool-aid drinkers that would accept free arsenic-laced kool-aid and think it a swell friendly gesture because it was a freebie and would defend his right to distribute it with your dying breath. If I loved art and could afford a Picasso and I wanted to chop it up because it was mine to do as I please--is it morally right to allow me to do so? You Steve defenders think yes it is ok as long as you get a piece. This well Steve has never cheated me comment is confoundedly naive. Do you also disbelieve your parents when they say don't touch the iron it is hot and have to touch it for yourself ? You that defend him because he has never cheated you personally--or those with memories shorter than a few days WILL be cheated eventually and then you'll whine about getting cheated. You deserve what you get and it won't be sympathy from me. Bottom line: those that defend Steve are either sub rock dwellers who are oblivious to the Real Steve and should gird themselves with a dose of reality prior to opening their mouths OR they are just unethical compulsive enablers that keep his pathological game play going because they do not have the ethics to do otherwise. If anyone else had ran a scam just once like Arnold does daily, the list would be outraged. Misplaced sympathy for poor generous Steve --held by so many allegedly informed and intelligent folk speaks very poorly about their judgment in general. MOST children are too immature to play with real loaded firearms but some enablers allow them to do so because it is so cute and charming but most feel it is immoral to let children play with firearms. Same-- same --for distributing meteorites by child-like adults and to other child or childlike personalities People who take hammers to meteorites just to give away pieces to garner sympathy /attention would not be allowed to own them if I were king. Why so many can't distinguish St Nick from the Grench in this discussion is beyond me. Elton who is also sick of well poor Steve has a problem so we should never confront him liberal touchy-feelly jello for a back-bone mouth pieces. Merry Fracking Christmas __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Steve Arnold (Elgin). Man of his word.
Again --I believe this to be a service-- 7 years of repeated misbehavior should show a permanent pattern of un-trustworthiness and and a total failure to become trustworthy--Yet many of you continue to buy from HIM based on HIS word alone that you are getting what you paid for. Many have come forward with accounts of being cheated by Steve. They are the ones that get chastised for creating a disturbance. What is the problem with this picture, Eric? I for one want the list archives replete with the other side of the Jerkle- Hyde Steve Saga so when all the bleeding hearts defense posts are searched the searcher will know the rest of the story. Plus you obviously haven't had to deal with Steve's presence as long as many of us have. Elton PS Using Steve logic-- I never wrote this and you can't prove I did so you can always get the complete truth with each post I make as I am not accountable for my previous statements and this one either I promise I'll never ever harass you or lie to you or cheat you--until next time anyway. Now re-post this theme, semi-daily and see how long it takes to become repugnant. On Sun, Dec 20, 2009 at 3:39 AM, Meteorites USA e...@meteoritesusa.com wrote: What exactly is your point? (rhetorical of course) Who's the one with the problem? The one who apologizes for some of the things they've done, or the one who points out the faults of others and consistently posts negative comments and BS with an obvious prejudice that no one wants to read, and all in all never contributes anything but negativity to the list. Please ,Please--- how could you of all people miss the point so far off mark? Must have taken a while to compile the apologies. What have you contributed to the list that can be deemed the least bit noteworthy or positive beside brash attempts at slamming other on the list? Nothing that I've seen... Another excellent rhetorical question but it is not one any of us asked about our own posts, now is it. But then again I didn't search through 7 years of posts to make my point either... Regards, Eric __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
