Re: [meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps ?
Late reply I recall something similar to caves and US Topo maps After they were no longer needed for Civil Defense purposes , some one thought they could reduce cave vandalism and bat hibernation disturbance but taking all cave location and names off the topo maps as they were republished. Old Topos are sought after for that reason. I imagine the FOIA request would have to go to the US Geological Service for that DIS file. Elton - Original Message > From: Galactic Stone & Ironworks > To: David Norton > Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > Sent: Thu, November 4, 2010 8:15:22 AM > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps ? > > I would think a FOIA request could get the maps, if they exist. > > Unless the secret locations are national security related, there is no > good reason for BLM to withhold that information. > > And what makes a BLM officer any more trustworthy than the average > citizen? How do we know the BLM people aren't plundering those sites? > > > > On 11/4/10, David Nortonwrote: > > If you can find older versions of topo maps you will see more detail in > > labeling of features such as ruins. The current maps are more "sanitized". > > > > -Original Message- > > From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com > > [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Thomas > > Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 8:33 PM > > Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > > Subject: [meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps ? > > > > Last week I was walking along a dry lake bed and looked up to see the > > inevitable white truck parked next to mine. I walked back and had a nice > > talk with a BLM officer. He was concerned that we were picking up > > artifacts, which we were not. My wife mentioned that we were going to > > look for some petroglyphs and asked him about the roads in that area. > > "No Mam", he says. "We can't tell you anything about locations. In fact > > there are many more petroglyphs and over a hundred caves that are not on > > your maps and we can't tell you anything about." > > > > Which makes me think that these locations must be a matter of record > > somewhere. Does the BLM have secret maps not available to the public? > > > > Thomas M > > > > Petroglyph pictures if anyone's interested : > > http://www.photoblog.com/GreyDX/ > > > > __ > > Visit the Archives at > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > > > __ > > Visit the Archives at > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > __ > Visit the Archives at >http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps battle of the Smithsonian
Woody Guthrie on meteorite collecting on federal lands: I saw above me that endless skyway I saw below me that golden valley This land was made for you and me. I roamed and I rambled and I followed my footsteps To the sparkling sands of her diamond deserts While all around me a voice was sounding This land was made for you and me. When the sun came shining, and I was strolling, I stood there asking, Is this land made for you and me? As I went walking I saw a sign there And on the sign it said "No Trespassing." But on the other side it didn't say nothing, That side was made for you and me. -- Phil Whitmer __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps battle of the Smithsonian
OK... lets be clear... Permitting is carried out by the BLM. Certain minerals are locatable, certain minerals are leasable, and certain minerals are salable. There is a distinct difference between ALL of these, and regulation which govern each. Yes the BLM enforces the regulations set by lawmakers on Capitol Hill. Yes the BLM governs and issues permits. However, there is a clear difference between "policy" and "law". Policy is NOT law. Yes I agree it is a privilege that we as Americans are allowed to collect on public land. But I think you're mistaken... Individuals have EVERY right to collect certain things from federal land with permission of course. There are laws that specifically govern minerals, fossils, and artifacts. With very specific laws which govern mining, and what's considered a locatable mineral, leasable mineral, or decorative rock. Yet meteorites have no specific law, or regulation. Why? Because the mineral laws are used in lieu of, even if however very loosely and certainly ambiguously. Sometimes the 1906 Antiquities Act is used... Hmmm... That's confusing isn't it? Not really, because it allows the BLM to pick and choose how to enforce "policy" not law. I fully disagree... The federal government should NOT claim ownership of meteorites, based on scientific interest. This is used as an excuse/reason to seize meteorites (or anything) the government wants. Period. Artifacts have specific regulation. Fossils have specific regulation. Meteorites don't. And that is hindering the advancement of meteorite science and private sector collection and study, while it infringes on our rights to collect. It's ok to go out and collect certain fossils and artifacts right? Yet ALL meteorites belong to the government? Seems kind of choosy... Show me a law that says *specifically* that meteorites are owned by the government. There is no such law. People are scared to go out there and hunt and recover meteorites on federal land for fear of losing them to the government. Why should we be scared? That seems wrong to me. I guess it doesn't really matter, scientifically speaking where a meteorite was found. does it? As long as it's chemically analyzed and classified. We should be able to hunt, recover, collect, and sell any meteorites found on federal land. There should be a fair share split between the government, Smithsonian, and the recoverer of the stone(s). Eric On 11/5/2010 10:11 AM, Chris Peterson wrote: You are mistaken about the law. EVERYTHING that sits on federal land belongs to the federal government. There are no exceptions. Individuals have NO right to take anything off federal land. It is entirely up to the discretion of the managers of federal land to allow individuals the PRIVILEGE of collecting something from federal land. Even where there are specific exceptions in federal law, as for mining or limited mineral collecting, enforcement is still up to the land management agencies. I agree that the lack of any formal policy can make things difficult, but it is important to remember that this is just that- policy. Of course, it is all a matter of individual perspective. I fully agree that the federal government should claim ownership of any meteorite found on federal land that has a high scientific value. Of course, in practice, very few meteorites found by collectors or hunters have much scientific value, so there is no reason for the government to care if they are collected. All that is needed is a simple permit system, but I doubt that will every happen. This isn't exactly something that anybody in the relevant government agencies puts much priority on. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: "Meteorites USA" To: Sent: Friday, November 05, 2010 10:30 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps battle of the Smithsonian See... Part (2) that is exactly the point... and exactly the problem. There's no clear policy at all with regard to meteorites, meteorite hunting, and meteorite recovery. Different BLM offices will have different policies based on the discretion of the person on shift at the time. So if they guy or gal behind the counter has a bad morning, forgets their coffee, or generally has a bad day, they dictate to you whether you can hunt our not? Discretion? Whatever! OK so we are supposed to hope someone is in the "mood" to issue permission? That's laughable at best. The policy part (1) is seriously flawed. There's no "law" which states meteorites belong to the goverment, other than mineral law which can be loosely applied to meteorites. Yet somehow they pick and choose which laws to pply when and how they "feel" like it. I guarantee you the BLM doesn
Re: [meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps battle of the Smithsonian
You are mistaken about the law. EVERYTHING that sits on federal land belongs to the federal government. There are no exceptions. Individuals have NO right to take anything off federal land. It is entirely up to the discretion of the managers of federal land to allow individuals the PRIVILEGE of collecting something from federal land. Even where there are specific exceptions in federal law, as for mining or limited mineral collecting, enforcement is still up to the land management agencies. I agree that the lack of any formal policy can make things difficult, but it is important to remember that this is just that- policy. Of course, it is all a matter of individual perspective. I fully agree that the federal government should claim ownership of any meteorite found on federal land that has a high scientific value. Of course, in practice, very few meteorites found by collectors or hunters have much scientific value, so there is no reason for the government to care if they are collected. All that is needed is a simple permit system, but I doubt that will every happen. This isn't exactly something that anybody in the relevant government agencies puts much priority on. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: "Meteorites USA" To: Sent: Friday, November 05, 2010 10:30 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps battle of the Smithsonian See... Part (2) that is exactly the point... and exactly the problem. There's no clear policy at all with regard to meteorites, meteorite hunting, and meteorite recovery. Different BLM offices will have different policies based on the discretion of the person on shift at the time. So if they guy or gal behind the counter has a bad morning, forgets their coffee, or generally has a bad day, they dictate to you whether you can hunt our not? Discretion? Whatever! OK so we are supposed to hope someone is in the "mood" to issue permission? That's laughable at best. The policy part (1) is seriously flawed. There's no "law" which states meteorites belong to the goverment, other than mineral law which can be loosely applied to meteorites. Yet somehow they pick and choose which laws to pply when and how they "feel" like it. I guarantee you the BLM doesn't care about the average chondrite meteorite. But if you find a North American Lunar, a Martian, a 6000 pound iron, or an ultra rare carbonaceous meteorite the BLM and Smithsonian will probably jump up real quick and say it's theirs, and will try to take it from you. Other countries sciences have been damaged by restrictive regulations where the government claims ownership of meteorites. If we as Americans and as a country adopt the policy that meteorites are off limits to the public, we are stifling the science we're trying to protect. Eric -list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps battle of the Smithsonian
See... Part (2) that is exactly the point... and exactly the problem. There's no clear policy at all with regard to meteorites, meteorite hunting, and meteorite recovery. Different BLM offices will have different policies based on the discretion of the person on shift at the time. So if they guy or gal behind the counter has a bad morning, forgets their coffee, or generally has a bad day, they dictate to you whether you can hunt our not? Discretion? Whatever! OK so we are supposed to hope someone is in the "mood" to issue permission? That's laughable at best. The policy part (1) is seriously flawed. There's no "law" which states meteorites belong to the goverment, other than mineral law which can be loosely applied to meteorites. Yet somehow they pick and choose which laws to pply when and how they "feel" like it. I guarantee you the BLM doesn't care about the average chondrite meteorite. But if you find a North American Lunar, a Martian, a 6000 pound iron, or an ultra rare carbonaceous meteorite the BLM and Smithsonian will probably jump up real quick and say it's theirs, and will try to take it from you. Other countries sciences have been damaged by restrictive regulations where the government claims ownership of meteorites. If we as Americans and as a country adopt the policy that meteorites are off limits to the public, we are stifling the science we're trying to protect. Eric On 11/5/2010 8:59 AM, Chris Peterson wrote: It's more complicated than this. The guidelines we follow at the Denver Museum of Nature and Science when hunting for meteorites are like this: 1. All rocks, meteorites, artifacts, etc found on public land belong to the government. There is no individual right to take anything, but different land administration agencies can choose to allow collection, usually with specific guidelines. 2. In the case of public lands, who you seek permission from depends on the administering agency. Meteorites on BLM land are not automatically claimed by the Smithsonian, but meteorites on National Forest or National Park land are. If searching on BLM land (which is Dept of the Interior) you can seek permission from the local BLM office, which generally has a lot of discretion. When seeking on National Forest or National Park land, you can again seek permission from the local administrator (not from the Smithsonian), but they usually have little discretion. The Museum can usually get permission; private parties usually not. If you are searching on state lands, you have to get permission from the state administrator, and they usually have no policy at all, and everything will depend on who you talk to and what kind of day they are having. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: "Steve Dunklee" To: ; Sent: Friday, November 05, 2010 9:36 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps battle of the Smithsonian Might we talk to the currator of meteorites at the Smithsonian to have them issue permits for the collection of meteorites on BLM land? With the required 20 gram sample going to the smithsonian. They cant tell you no you cant look for them if you are collecting them for the Government. Might be able to use a similar ploy in Austrailia. The smithsonian might even be able to make a few bucks charging $25 a year for the permits to collect thier property. Since i think it is in an act of congress that meteorites on federal land belong to the smithsonian. It would be out of BLM hands to stop you with a scientific collection permit from the smithsonian. Cheers Steve __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps battle of the Smithsonian
It's more complicated than this. The guidelines we follow at the Denver Museum of Nature and Science when hunting for meteorites are like this: 1. All rocks, meteorites, artifacts, etc found on public land belong to the government. There is no individual right to take anything, but different land administration agencies can choose to allow collection, usually with specific guidelines. 2. In the case of public lands, who you seek permission from depends on the administering agency. Meteorites on BLM land are not automatically claimed by the Smithsonian, but meteorites on National Forest or National Park land are. If searching on BLM land (which is Dept of the Interior) you can seek permission from the local BLM office, which generally has a lot of discretion. When seeking on National Forest or National Park land, you can again seek permission from the local administrator (not from the Smithsonian), but they usually have little discretion. The Museum can usually get permission; private parties usually not. If you are searching on state lands, you have to get permission from the state administrator, and they usually have no policy at all, and everything will depend on who you talk to and what kind of day they are having. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: "Steve Dunklee" To: ; Sent: Friday, November 05, 2010 9:36 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps battle of the Smithsonian Might we talk to the currator of meteorites at the Smithsonian to have them issue permits for the collection of meteorites on BLM land? With the required 20 gram sample going to the smithsonian. They cant tell you no you cant look for them if you are collecting them for the Government. Might be able to use a similar ploy in Austrailia. The smithsonian might even be able to make a few bucks charging $25 a year for the permits to collect thier property. Since i think it is in an act of congress that meteorites on federal land belong to the smithsonian. It would be out of BLM hands to stop you with a scientific collection permit from the smithsonian. Cheers Steve __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps battle of the Smithsonian
Not to be discouraging, but the Smithsonian doesn't really have that much to do with the BLM. Any other research institution has about the same amount of pull and would have to go through the same process to obtain a permit. It would be easier to work with a local university that works on meteorites and get them to help get you a permit. -YvW On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 10:36 AM, Steve Dunklee wrote: > Might we talk to the currator of meteorites at the Smithsonian to have them > issue permits for the collection of meteorites on BLM land? With the required > 20 gram sample going to the smithsonian. They cant tell you no you cant look > for them if you are collecting them for the Government. Might be able to use > a similar ploy in Austrailia. The smithsonian might even be able to make a > few bucks charging $25 a year for the permits to collect thier property. > Since i think it is in an act of congress that meteorites on federal land > belong to the smithsonian. It would be out of BLM hands to stop you with a > scientific collection permit from the smithsonian. Cheers Steve > > On Thu Nov 4th, 2010 9:35 PM EDT Adam Hupe wrote: > >>Jason, >> >>I have no idea what you are getting at but simply said, I do not have to agree >>with a law in order to abide by it. Breaking laws will do no good and could >>result in all land becoming off limits which is nearly the case with treasure >>hunting. Without weight limits for rock hounds, somebody could remove an >>entire >>outcrop, like the Alamo breccia for instance, and build an mansion with it. >>Then they could go back and build a rock fence around the 800 acre property >>leaving very little for other hobbyists. >> >> >>Best Regards, >> >>Adam >> >> >> >>----- Original Message >>From: Jason Utas >>To: Meteorite-list >>Sent: Thu, November 4, 2010 6:04:56 PM >>Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps >> >>Adam, All, >>I don't understand the hypocrisy of your agreeing to the 250 lb per >>year maximum, while crying 'foul' at stricter laws being imposed by >>different branches of our government. >> >>If you were arguing about the right and wrong of collecting meteorites >>and other rocks from a moral standpoint, the number is a purely >>arbitrary one. As a "rights" issue, the fact that the law is there in >>any way, shape, or form, inhibiting your "right" to collect rocks on >>public land, is paramount. Either you should be allowed to collect >>what you want to -- or you shouldn't. >> >>This is why: >> >>For us meteorite hunters, by and large, the law is entirely >>irrelevant. I'm probably never going to find a meteorite that weighs >>more than a few kilograms, even if I go to a known strewn field with >>large meteorites laying around. Even then, the BLM doesn't seem to >>care when meteorites like the Glorietta Mountain main mass are removed >>from federal land, so...I guess it doesn't matter either way. As long >>as you don't do something stupid like going to the Smithsonian with >>your three tonne iron, you should be fine. >>So the fact that the BLM restricts collecting more than 250 lbs of >>rocks per year means literally nothing to me. >> >>Which is why, I think, you're in favor of the 250 lb restriction that >>the BLM used to (or does still) have in place, regarding meteorites. >> >>But what if you were to happen upon the next "Old Woman," and the >>government actually pursued their rightful ownership (as per existing >>laws)? Right now, you apparently support the 250 lb BLM limit. But >>the next time either one of us goes hunting, we might have a damn good >>reason to fight that law tooth and nail. >> >>Yet there are more problems. Think about this from a scientific point >>of view; why is a 1 tonne meteorite scientifically more important than >>a ten gram one? Well, this is where meteorites start to differ from >>minerals. Generally speaking, if you find a single mineral specimen >>out in the desert, it's not going to be of great scientific interest, >>and you probably wouldn't do much damage to the surrounding terrain if >>you were to pocket it and take it home. If you were to find a deposit >>of something rare or interesting, it would be a very different matter. >> >>If you find a small meteorite out in the desert...well, take, for >>example, my tiny Acapulcoite. I don't know if one could say that it >>is "more important" than your average 250 lb meteorite, but I would >&g
Re: [meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps
Agreed - the law has been twisted beyond its scope. Just like the Interstate Commerce Clause has been. It's sad that a beneficial activity like meteorite hunting has been grouped with grave robbing. But the nature of government is to grab power and grow - that isn't new and shouldn't be surprising. I think common sense will prevail as long as you are respectful to agents (but not allow yourself to be bluffed), don't rob graves or deface national treasures. It is beneficial to have people out on public lands - it increases the odds that SOB's behaving badly will be caught. Be ready - think about what you would do in that case. It will eventually to happen to one of us - probably many times over. My family has caught poachers on quite a few occasions. Most importantly, use your common sense; if you feel the need to look around before you start doing something, stop and think why that is. We all represent the hobby and our actions reflect on it... Tread lightly and happy hunting, Mark B. Vail, AZ - Original Message From: Adam Hupe To: Adam Sent: Thu, November 4, 2010 9:19:38 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps I will close my part in this debate by stating that the original Antiquities Act was written long before there was great interest in meteorites in 1906 and has nothing to do with meteorites whatsoever. The Management Act of 1976 doesn't address meteorites at all. The Archaeological Resources Protection Act of 1979 has nothing to do with meteorites either. If the "protection" of meteorites is that important, common sense would state that they would have been mentioned by name instead of a vague entity "scientific" Plants have more scientific value to most. Meteorites have no scientific value whatsoever unless they are collected from the field and provided to science. Happy Hunting, Adam __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps battle of the Smithsonian
Might we talk to the currator of meteorites at the Smithsonian to have them issue permits for the collection of meteorites on BLM land? With the required 20 gram sample going to the smithsonian. They cant tell you no you cant look for them if you are collecting them for the Government. Might be able to use a similar ploy in Austrailia. The smithsonian might even be able to make a few bucks charging $25 a year for the permits to collect thier property. Since i think it is in an act of congress that meteorites on federal land belong to the smithsonian. It would be out of BLM hands to stop you with a scientific collection permit from the smithsonian. Cheers Steve On Thu Nov 4th, 2010 9:35 PM EDT Adam Hupe wrote: >Jason, > >I have no idea what you are getting at but simply said, I do not have to agree >with a law in order to abide by it. Breaking laws will do no good and could >result in all land becoming off limits which is nearly the case with treasure >hunting. Without weight limits for rock hounds, somebody could remove an >entire >outcrop, like the Alamo breccia for instance, and build an mansion with it. >Then they could go back and build a rock fence around the 800 acre property >leaving very little for other hobbyists. > > >Best Regards, > >Adam > > > >- Original Message >From: Jason Utas >To: Meteorite-list >Sent: Thu, November 4, 2010 6:04:56 PM >Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps > >Adam, All, >I don't understand the hypocrisy of your agreeing to the 250 lb per >year maximum, while crying 'foul' at stricter laws being imposed by >different branches of our government. > >If you were arguing about the right and wrong of collecting meteorites >and other rocks from a moral standpoint, the number is a purely >arbitrary one. As a "rights" issue, the fact that the law is there in >any way, shape, or form, inhibiting your "right" to collect rocks on >public land, is paramount. Either you should be allowed to collect >what you want to -- or you shouldn't. > >This is why: > >For us meteorite hunters, by and large, the law is entirely >irrelevant. I'm probably never going to find a meteorite that weighs >more than a few kilograms, even if I go to a known strewn field with >large meteorites laying around. Even then, the BLM doesn't seem to >care when meteorites like the Glorietta Mountain main mass are removed >from federal land, so...I guess it doesn't matter either way. As long >as you don't do something stupid like going to the Smithsonian with >your three tonne iron, you should be fine. >So the fact that the BLM restricts collecting more than 250 lbs of >rocks per year means literally nothing to me. > >Which is why, I think, you're in favor of the 250 lb restriction that >the BLM used to (or does still) have in place, regarding meteorites. > >But what if you were to happen upon the next "Old Woman," and the >government actually pursued their rightful ownership (as per existing >laws)? Right now, you apparently support the 250 lb BLM limit. But >the next time either one of us goes hunting, we might have a damn good >reason to fight that law tooth and nail. > >Yet there are more problems. Think about this from a scientific point >of view; why is a 1 tonne meteorite scientifically more important than >a ten gram one? Well, this is where meteorites start to differ from >minerals. Generally speaking, if you find a single mineral specimen >out in the desert, it's not going to be of great scientific interest, >and you probably wouldn't do much damage to the surrounding terrain if >you were to pocket it and take it home. If you were to find a deposit >of something rare or interesting, it would be a very different matter. > >If you find a small meteorite out in the desert...well, take, for >example, my tiny Acapulcoite. I don't know if one could say that it >is "more important" than your average 250 lb meteorite, but I would >like to point out that there have been many meteorites found in this >country that have weighed more than 250 lbs - but there is only one >other Acapulcoite. >If rarity is what defines scientific importance, size is of little >consequence. After all, Steve Arnold's 1,400 lb Brenham may be >impressive, and a spectacular example of a pallasite/meteorite in >general, but it has contributed next to nothing of our knowledge of >meteorites or understanding of the solar system. The Acfer 094 >meteorite, on the other hand - that's important, primitive stuff that >contains presolar grains, etc. It's helping us understand what was >going on ~4.6 billion years ago. >So, with regard to meteorit
Re: [meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps
I will close my part in this debate by stating that the original Antiquities Act was written long before there was great interest in meteorites in 1906 and has nothing to do with meteorites whatsoever. The Management Act of 1976 doesn't address meteorites at all. The Archaeological Resources Protection Act of 1979 has nothing to do with meteorites either. If the "protection" of meteorites is that important, common sense would state that they would have been mentioned by name instead of a vague entity "scientific" Plants have more scientific value to most. Meteorites have no scientific value whatsoever unless they are collected from the field and provided to science. Happy Hunting, Adam __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps
On 11/4/2010 12:10 PM, Adam Hupe wrote: I hope you were not in Oregon or Washington State when you talked to this BLM officer. If you were, do not mention the word "meteorites" because they are now off limits We were calm and cool and did not mention meteorites at all. He did not seem to be aware of that possibility and we didn't see a need to educate him : ) Our plan if we were to find anything was to photograph them and record the location and then to contact Dick Pugh in Portland without removing them, so we had no intention of violating their laws anyway, but of course no sense getting them worked up about unnecessarily : ) Thomas M __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps
Adam and all, Help me out in my research here. I'm not able to find the "Collecting rocks for landscaping..." quote in the Code of Federal Regulations at all. However, this is in CFR Title 43, in the BLM section, meaning it has the effect of law. Sec. 8365.1-5 Property and resources. (a) On all public lands, unless otherwise authorized, no person shall; (1) Willfully deface, disturb, remove or destroy any personal property, or structures, or any scientific, cultural, archaeological or historic resource, natural object or area; (2) Willfully deface, remove or destroy plants or their parts, soil, rocks or minerals, or cave resources, except as permitted under paragraph (b) or (c) of this paragraph; or (3) Use on the public lands explosive, motorized or mechanical devices, except metal detectors, to aid in the collection of specimens permitted under paragraph (b) or (c) of this paragraph. (b) Except on developed recreation sites and areas, or where otherwise prohibited and posted, it is permissible to collect from the public lands reasonable amounts of the following for noncommercial purposes: (1) Commonly available renewable resources such as flowers, berries, nuts, seeds, cones and leaves; (2) Nonrenewable resources such as rocks, mineral specimens, common invertebrate fossils and semiprecious gemstones; (3) Petrified wood as provided under subpart 3622 of this title; (4) Mineral materials as provided under subpart 3604; and (5) Forest products for use in campfires on the public lands. Other collection of forest products shall be in accordance with the provisions of Group 5500 of this title. (c) The collection of renewable or nonrenewable resources from the public lands for sale or barter to commercial dealers may be done only after obtaining a contract or permit from an authorized officer in accordance with part 3600 or 5400 of this chapter. [48 FR 36384, Aug. 10, 1983; 67 FR 68778, Nov. 13, 2002] I would say that meteorites are covered under section (a)(1) as objects/resources of scientific interest. It seems possible to me that Adam's quotation derives from a BLM attempt to define "reasonable amounts" of rocks under (b)(2). But I would argue that this section doesn't apply to meteorites at all due to their coverage under (a)(1). I am an amateur at reading laws and regs. Somebody correct me if I am wrong. Jeff On 2010-11-04 7:35 PM, Adam Hupe wrote: And being that it is federal public land, we have the right to remove 250 lbs of rocks a year without a permit. Anything that hinders this right goes against the laws our legislators set forth. Requiring a permit in Washinton and Oregon is a clear design on our liberty. *** Collecting Limits Collecting rocks for landscaping and other personal uses is allowed without a permit, as long as the use is non commercial and no mechanized equipment is used (other than a car or pickup truck). A permit is not needed if you limit your collecting 25 pounds plus one piece per day, not to exceed 250 pounds in one calendar year, and no specimen greater than 250 pounds may be collected without a special permit. The material must be for personal use only and shall not be sold or bartered to commercial dealers. Taking rock from stockpiles is not allowed. ** Link to BLM Site: http://www.blm.gov/ca/st/en/fo/elcentro/recreation/rocks.html Happy hunting while you still can, Adam - Original Message From: Jeff Grossman To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thu, November 4, 2010 4:24:11 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps Although I agree that an outright ban on meteorite collecting is not the best policy, I fail to see what rights you think are being violated. Are you saying that people have a constitutional right to do anything and everything they want on federal lands without regulation? I don't think this is a civil rights issue; it is a public land-use policy issue. Jeff On 2010-11-04 7:05 PM, Adam Hupe wrote: I agree that these heritage sites should be protected. My only concern is how BLM field agents convey information. They are public servants and should tell the truth. If they do not know the laws, then they should simply state this instead of making things up. I get a different message from every one I have talked to in regards to meteorite hunting. Washington and Oregon are now definitely off limits and there are no permits for meteorite hunting available. This is a simple way to violet somebodies rights; Tell them they need a permit and then don't issue any. This is a sore subject for me since I can no longer search on public lands in my ex-state of Washington Thus never achieving a goal I set. Meteorites are now considered treasur
Re: [meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps
I can't not say something on this. It is ABSOLUTELY about rights *and* the law. I do *NOT* praise the BLM. I do however support them for their protection of *our* land. In that they do a good job, and I'm thankful for the agencies effort on that part. Aside from the infringement of the rights of the people to hunt, recover, keep and collect meteorites on federal land course. And I agree that YES the community should work with federal agencies to promote "SENSIBLE" regulation as long as that regulation doesn't infringe on the rights of the citizen to recover and collect meteorites legally on federal land. Just as people should follow the regulations of the land, those who regulate should not misinterpret a law for their own gain either. It goes both ways. Their use of the 1906 Antiquities Act is a misinterpretation of a law that was NOT designed to protect meteorites. It was singed into law by President Theodore Roosevelt to protect archeological sites and artifacts from looters. This law has, and is still now being used to seize meteorites found legally on federal land by the people. That is an unarguable fact. Artifacts are made by humans. Period. Meteorites are NOT artifacts Unless formed into an artifact by a HUMAN A meteorite is just a ROCK (albeit an "interesting" one) Certain Fossils are protected by specific Fossil laws Certain Artifacts are protected by specific Artifact laws Rocks are NOT fossils. Fossils are rocks and there's an OBVIOUS distinction between the two. Meteorites are rocks NOT Fossils. Rocks are Minerals Meteorites are Minerals There are laws in place which govern minerals There are no laws which govern meteorites directly. Only a misinterpreted law used to aquire and seize scientifically important and interesting "objects". Almost anything can be considered an object, and anyone can claim something is "interesting" scientifically. This law is VAGUE and hugely broad in scope with regard to meteorites. In fact it does not mention meteorites at all. Which is why this bogus interpretation infringes on the rights of the US citizen to hunt and recover meteorites on federal land. Agencies, scientists, hunters, private researchers, institutions and collectors all, CAN work together to come to a reasonable and sensible cooperative arrangement. Share! Everyone can have their fair share... Science doesn't need it all, the government doesn't need it all, and the hunter doesn't need it all. It's like kids on a playground fighting over the ball. The biggest bully kids usually gets it and the teacher never sees... I'm not exactly one for more laws or regulation, frankly I think there's too much and it complicates things. The solution is very simple. Stop all the CRAP and SHARE! Regards, Eric On 11/4/2010 6:18 PM, Adam Hupe wrote: I agree that other things can be formed or made from rock material. These are more than adequately covered under current law. I also agree that it would be wise to work with (educate) BLM field agents in order for them to tell the difference between "raw" rocks from fossils and artifacts. There is no distinction written in the current laws that differentiates between extraterrestrial or terrestrial rocks so these should be of no concern to field agents unless more than 250 lbs is collected. No more legislation is necessary. It is also equally clear that if an artifact is made from a meteorite (a type of rock), it should be left on the ground. Now if vertebrate fossils were found in a meteorite, then maybe new laws should be written. Best Regards, Adam - Original Message From: Jeff Grossman To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thu, November 4, 2010 6:03:26 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps Vertebrate fossils are also rocks. So are petroglyphs and many other cultural artifacts. Do you protest regulations prohibiting their collection? I understand your frustration, but you have to keep things in perspective. This is not a question of rights. It is a question of regulation. I praise BLM officials for recognizing that meteorites are distinct from ordinary rocks in the same way that these other materials are. The community should have the goal of working with federal agencies to promote sensible regulations. Jeff On 2010-11-04 7:35 PM, Adam Hupe wrote: And being that it is federal public land, we have the right to remove 250 lbs of rocks a year without a permit. Anything that hinders this right goes against the laws our legislators set forth. Requiring a permit in Washinton and Oregon is a clear design on our liberty. *** * Collecting Limits Collecting rocks for landscaping and other personal uses is allowed without a permit, as long as the use is non commercial and no mechan
Re: [meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps
Jason, I have no idea what you are getting at but simply said, I do not have to agree with a law in order to abide by it. Breaking laws will do no good and could result in all land becoming off limits which is nearly the case with treasure hunting. Without weight limits for rock hounds, somebody could remove an entire outcrop, like the Alamo breccia for instance, and build an mansion with it. Then they could go back and build a rock fence around the 800 acre property leaving very little for other hobbyists. Best Regards, Adam - Original Message From: Jason Utas To: Meteorite-list Sent: Thu, November 4, 2010 6:04:56 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps Adam, All, I don't understand the hypocrisy of your agreeing to the 250 lb per year maximum, while crying 'foul' at stricter laws being imposed by different branches of our government. If you were arguing about the right and wrong of collecting meteorites and other rocks from a moral standpoint, the number is a purely arbitrary one. As a "rights" issue, the fact that the law is there in any way, shape, or form, inhibiting your "right" to collect rocks on public land, is paramount. Either you should be allowed to collect what you want to -- or you shouldn't. This is why: For us meteorite hunters, by and large, the law is entirely irrelevant. I'm probably never going to find a meteorite that weighs more than a few kilograms, even if I go to a known strewn field with large meteorites laying around. Even then, the BLM doesn't seem to care when meteorites like the Glorietta Mountain main mass are removed from federal land, so...I guess it doesn't matter either way. As long as you don't do something stupid like going to the Smithsonian with your three tonne iron, you should be fine. So the fact that the BLM restricts collecting more than 250 lbs of rocks per year means literally nothing to me. Which is why, I think, you're in favor of the 250 lb restriction that the BLM used to (or does still) have in place, regarding meteorites. But what if you were to happen upon the next "Old Woman," and the government actually pursued their rightful ownership (as per existing laws)? Right now, you apparently support the 250 lb BLM limit. But the next time either one of us goes hunting, we might have a damn good reason to fight that law tooth and nail. Yet there are more problems. Think about this from a scientific point of view; why is a 1 tonne meteorite scientifically more important than a ten gram one? Well, this is where meteorites start to differ from minerals. Generally speaking, if you find a single mineral specimen out in the desert, it's not going to be of great scientific interest, and you probably wouldn't do much damage to the surrounding terrain if you were to pocket it and take it home. If you were to find a deposit of something rare or interesting, it would be a very different matter. If you find a small meteorite out in the desert...well, take, for example, my tiny Acapulcoite. I don't know if one could say that it is "more important" than your average 250 lb meteorite, but I would like to point out that there have been many meteorites found in this country that have weighed more than 250 lbs - but there is only one other Acapulcoite. If rarity is what defines scientific importance, size is of little consequence. After all, Steve Arnold's 1,400 lb Brenham may be impressive, and a spectacular example of a pallasite/meteorite in general, but it has contributed next to nothing of our knowledge of meteorites or understanding of the solar system. The Acfer 094 meteorite, on the other hand - that's important, primitive stuff that contains presolar grains, etc. It's helping us understand what was going on ~4.6 billion years ago. So, with regard to meteorites, size really isn't what makes them "important." Hence a "250 lb" restriction is essentially worthless with regards to space rocks. Now, if the law was intended to preserve the landscape by preventing commercial mining endeavors...that's not going to happen with meteorites, because that's not how they're found. Even the removal of a huge iron like the Old Woman...well, it returned the landscape to what it should have looked like before a large, alien piece of iron happened to fall there. So that aspect of it doesn't really apply. But along that line - "250 lb" maximum is as arbitrary as any law. What if they had originally stated that you could collect a tonne? Ten kilograms? Nothing? It's arbitrary. Based on what you've said, and I'll quote, "We have the right to remove 250 lbs of rocks a year without a permit. Anything that hinders this right goes against the laws our legislators set forth." If the original law had stated that you were not allowed
Re: [meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps
I agree that other things can be formed or made from rock material. These are more than adequately covered under current law. I also agree that it would be wise to work with (educate) BLM field agents in order for them to tell the difference between "raw" rocks from fossils and artifacts. There is no distinction written in the current laws that differentiates between extraterrestrial or terrestrial rocks so these should be of no concern to field agents unless more than 250 lbs is collected. No more legislation is necessary. It is also equally clear that if an artifact is made from a meteorite (a type of rock), it should be left on the ground. Now if vertebrate fossils were found in a meteorite, then maybe new laws should be written. Best Regards, Adam - Original Message From: Jeff Grossman To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thu, November 4, 2010 6:03:26 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps Vertebrate fossils are also rocks. So are petroglyphs and many other cultural artifacts. Do you protest regulations prohibiting their collection? I understand your frustration, but you have to keep things in perspective. This is not a question of rights. It is a question of regulation. I praise BLM officials for recognizing that meteorites are distinct from ordinary rocks in the same way that these other materials are. The community should have the goal of working with federal agencies to promote sensible regulations. Jeff On 2010-11-04 7:35 PM, Adam Hupe wrote: > And being that it is federal public land, we have the right to remove 250 lbs >of > rocks a year without a permit. Anything that hinders this right goes against >the > laws our legislators set forth. Requiring a permit in Washinton and Oregon > is >a > clear design on our liberty. > >*** >* > > > Collecting Limits > Collecting rocks for landscaping and other personal uses is allowed without a > permit, as long as the use is non commercial and no mechanized equipment is > used (other than a car or pickup truck). A permit is not needed if you limit > your collecting 25 pounds plus one piece per day, not to exceed 250 pounds in > one calendar year, and no specimen greater than 250 pounds may be collected > without a special permit. The material must be for personal use only and shall > > not be sold or bartered to commercial dealers. Taking rock from stockpiles is > not allowed. >** >* > > > > Link to BLM Site: > http://www.blm.gov/ca/st/en/fo/elcentro/recreation/rocks.html > > > Happy hunting while you still can, > > Adam > > > > > > > > - Original Message ---- > From: Jeff Grossman > To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > Sent: Thu, November 4, 2010 4:24:11 PM > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps > > Although I agree that an outright ban on meteorite collecting is not the > best policy, I fail to see what rights you think are being violated. > Are you saying that people have a constitutional right to do anything > and everything they want on federal lands without regulation? I don't > think this is a civil rights issue; it is a public land-use policy issue. > > Jeff > > On 2010-11-04 7:05 PM, Adam Hupe wrote: >> I agree that these heritage sites should be protected. My only concern is how >> BLM field agents convey information. They are public servants and should tell >> the truth. If they do not know the laws, then they should simply state this >> instead of making things up. I get a different message from every one I have >> talked to in regards to meteorite hunting. Washington and Oregon are now >> definitely off limits and there are no permits for meteorite hunting > available. >> This is a simple way to violet somebodies rights; Tell them they need a permit >> and then don't issue any. >> >> This is a sore subject for me since I can no longer search on public lands in >> my >> ex-state of Washington Thus never achieving a goal I set. Meteorites are now >> considered treasure and will be protected as such in some areas. >> >> >> >> >> Best Regards, >> >> Adam >> __ >> Visit the Archives at >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> > -- Dr. Jeffrey N. Grossman phone: (703) 648-6184 US Geological Survey fax: (703) 648-6383 95
Re: [meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps
and they oversee, since there's no reason to single this one rule out...except personal interest, of course. If you think it's an issue, what I would suggest is going to Washington (state), finding a meteorite, and then seeing if the BLM will try to take it. Or better yet, if they try to give you a ticket or jail you, sue them and take matters to as high a court as possible. I'm pretty sure the ACLU would take something of an interest in the case, though you might have a word with someone from their group beforehand. We elect people to oversee and protect our nation and its resources, and these senators and representatives in some cases have apparently decided that meteorites are some of the things that need protecting from increasing commercialization. While you and I may not agree with them, you are, of course, entitled to disagree and make your opinion heard. You're even welcome to lobby and try to get the laws and regulations of whatever state you wish (Washington, by the sound of it) changed. Even the BLM. It can be done. Meanwhile, we're legally obliged to abide by such laws until they are changed, for better or for worse. Complaining on here doesn't do much, but I agree - it's interesting to hear nonetheless. I just have the feeling that these supposed BLM regulations that you're complaining of in Washington a) likely don't really exist, and b) probably wouldn't be enforced even if someone over there was trying to implement them. Seeing as the BLM is an organization which oversees land in twelve states, I very much doubt that they would start prohibiting the collection of meteorites from BLM land in a single state -- especially one in which they're not being found. Regards, Jason On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 4:35 PM, Adam Hupe wrote: > And being that it is federal public land, we have the right to remove 250 lbs > of > rocks a year without a permit. Anything that hinders this right goes against > the > laws our legislators set forth. Requiring a permit in Washinton and Oregon > is a > clear design on our liberty. > > *** > > > Collecting Limits > Collecting rocks for landscaping and other personal uses is allowed without a > permit, as long as the use is non commercial and no mechanized equipment is > used (other than a car or pickup truck). A permit is not needed if you limit > your collecting 25 pounds plus one piece per day, not to exceed 250 pounds in > one calendar year, and no specimen greater than 250 pounds may be collected > without a special permit. The material must be for personal use only and > shall > > not be sold or bartered to commercial dealers. Taking rock from stockpiles is > not allowed. > ************** > > > > Link to BLM Site: > http://www.blm.gov/ca/st/en/fo/elcentro/recreation/rocks.html > > > Happy hunting while you still can, > > Adam > > > > > > > > - Original Message > From: Jeff Grossman > To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > Sent: Thu, November 4, 2010 4:24:11 PM > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps > > Although I agree that an outright ban on meteorite collecting is not the > best policy, I fail to see what rights you think are being violated. > Are you saying that people have a constitutional right to do anything > and everything they want on federal lands without regulation? I don't > think this is a civil rights issue; it is a public land-use policy issue. > > Jeff > > On 2010-11-04 7:05 PM, Adam Hupe wrote: >> I agree that these heritage sites should be protected. My only concern is >> how >> BLM field agents convey information. They are public servants and should >> tell >> the truth. If they do not know the laws, then they should simply state this >> instead of making things up. I get a different message from every one I have >> talked to in regards to meteorite hunting. Washington and Oregon are now >> definitely off limits and there are no permits for meteorite hunting > available. >> This is a simple way to violet somebodies rights; Tell them they need a >> permit >> and then don't issue any. >> >> This is a sore subject for me since I can no longer search on public lands in >>my >> ex-state of Washington Thus never achieving a goal I set. Meteorites are now >> considered treasure and will be protected as such in some areas. >> >> >> >> >> Best Regards, >> >> Adam >> __ >> Visit the Archives at >>
Re: [meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps
Vertebrate fossils are also rocks. So are petroglyphs and many other cultural artifacts. Do you protest regulations prohibiting their collection? I understand your frustration, but you have to keep things in perspective. This is not a question of rights. It is a question of regulation. I praise BLM officials for recognizing that meteorites are distinct from ordinary rocks in the same way that these other materials are. The community should have the goal of working with federal agencies to promote sensible regulations. Jeff On 2010-11-04 7:35 PM, Adam Hupe wrote: And being that it is federal public land, we have the right to remove 250 lbs of rocks a year without a permit. Anything that hinders this right goes against the laws our legislators set forth. Requiring a permit in Washinton and Oregon is a clear design on our liberty. *** Collecting Limits Collecting rocks for landscaping and other personal uses is allowed without a permit, as long as the use is non commercial and no mechanized equipment is used (other than a car or pickup truck). A permit is not needed if you limit your collecting 25 pounds plus one piece per day, not to exceed 250 pounds in one calendar year, and no specimen greater than 250 pounds may be collected without a special permit. The material must be for personal use only and shall not be sold or bartered to commercial dealers. Taking rock from stockpiles is not allowed. ** Link to BLM Site: http://www.blm.gov/ca/st/en/fo/elcentro/recreation/rocks.html Happy hunting while you still can, Adam - Original Message From: Jeff Grossman To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thu, November 4, 2010 4:24:11 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps Although I agree that an outright ban on meteorite collecting is not the best policy, I fail to see what rights you think are being violated. Are you saying that people have a constitutional right to do anything and everything they want on federal lands without regulation? I don't think this is a civil rights issue; it is a public land-use policy issue. Jeff On 2010-11-04 7:05 PM, Adam Hupe wrote: I agree that these heritage sites should be protected. My only concern is how BLM field agents convey information. They are public servants and should tell the truth. If they do not know the laws, then they should simply state this instead of making things up. I get a different message from every one I have talked to in regards to meteorite hunting. Washington and Oregon are now definitely off limits and there are no permits for meteorite hunting available. This is a simple way to violet somebodies rights; Tell them they need a permit and then don't issue any. This is a sore subject for me since I can no longer search on public lands in my ex-state of Washington Thus never achieving a goal I set. Meteorites are now considered treasure and will be protected as such in some areas. Best Regards, Adam __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list -- Dr. Jeffrey N. Grossman phone: (703) 648-6184 US Geological Survey fax: (703) 648-6383 954 National Center Reston, VA 20192, USA __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps
And being that it is federal public land, we have the right to remove 250 lbs of rocks a year without a permit. Anything that hinders this right goes against the laws our legislators set forth. Requiring a permit in Washinton and Oregon is a clear design on our liberty. *** Collecting Limits Collecting rocks for landscaping and other personal uses is allowed without a permit, as long as the use is non commercial and no mechanized equipment is used (other than a car or pickup truck). A permit is not needed if you limit your collecting 25 pounds plus one piece per day, not to exceed 250 pounds in one calendar year, and no specimen greater than 250 pounds may be collected without a special permit. The material must be for personal use only and shall not be sold or bartered to commercial dealers. Taking rock from stockpiles is not allowed. ** Link to BLM Site: http://www.blm.gov/ca/st/en/fo/elcentro/recreation/rocks.html Happy hunting while you still can, Adam - Original Message From: Jeff Grossman To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thu, November 4, 2010 4:24:11 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps Although I agree that an outright ban on meteorite collecting is not the best policy, I fail to see what rights you think are being violated. Are you saying that people have a constitutional right to do anything and everything they want on federal lands without regulation? I don't think this is a civil rights issue; it is a public land-use policy issue. Jeff On 2010-11-04 7:05 PM, Adam Hupe wrote: > I agree that these heritage sites should be protected. My only concern is how > BLM field agents convey information. They are public servants and should tell > the truth. If they do not know the laws, then they should simply state this > instead of making things up. I get a different message from every one I have > talked to in regards to meteorite hunting. Washington and Oregon are now > definitely off limits and there are no permits for meteorite hunting available. > This is a simple way to violet somebodies rights; Tell them they need a permit > and then don't issue any. > > This is a sore subject for me since I can no longer search on public lands in >my > ex-state of Washington Thus never achieving a goal I set. Meteorites are now > considered treasure and will be protected as such in some areas. > > > > > Best Regards, > > Adam > __ > Visit the Archives at >http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > -- Dr. Jeffrey N. Grossman phone: (703) 648-6184 US Geological Survey fax: (703) 648-6383 954 National Center Reston, VA 20192, USA __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps
> It should be a surprise to no one that rangers are asking more and more
> questions, and that the laws are being tightened.
I experienced the same thing on the Canarian island of Lanzarote recently,
where I talked to several rangers of the National Park there about the means of
protection of the (volcanic) islands natural treasures. They had their very own
but anyway true arguments ("...if everyone of the about 2 mio annual tourists
here on the island would take away just one bigger olivine stone, what would
you think this island would look like in just a couple of years?"). I can
understand that.
So always be careful what you do, and know the rules in the fields. In our
lifes we are here only for a couple of decades, but natural things need to be
preserved. With our lifes we have different, much smaller scales of time than
nature has to develop, which has always to be kept in mind.
Alex
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Re: [meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps
Although I agree that an outright ban on meteorite collecting is not the best policy, I fail to see what rights you think are being violated. Are you saying that people have a constitutional right to do anything and everything they want on federal lands without regulation? I don't think this is a civil rights issue; it is a public land-use policy issue. Jeff On 2010-11-04 7:05 PM, Adam Hupe wrote: I agree that these heritage sites should be protected. My only concern is how BLM field agents convey information. They are public servants and should tell the truth. If they do not know the laws, then they should simply state this instead of making things up. I get a different message from every one I have talked to in regards to meteorite hunting. Washington and Oregon are now definitely off limits and there are no permits for meteorite hunting available. This is a simple way to violet somebodies rights; Tell them they need a permit and then don't issue any. This is a sore subject for me since I can no longer search on public lands in my ex-state of Washington Thus never achieving a goal I set. Meteorites are now considered treasure and will be protected as such in some areas. Best Regards, Adam __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list -- Dr. Jeffrey N. Grossman phone: (703) 648-6184 US Geological Survey fax: (703) 648-6383 954 National Center Reston, VA 20192, USA __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps
I agree that these heritage sites should be protected. My only concern is how BLM field agents convey information. They are public servants and should tell the truth. If they do not know the laws, then they should simply state this instead of making things up. I get a different message from every one I have talked to in regards to meteorite hunting. Washington and Oregon are now definitely off limits and there are no permits for meteorite hunting available. This is a simple way to violet somebodies rights; Tell them they need a permit and then don't issue any. This is a sore subject for me since I can no longer search on public lands in my ex-state of Washington Thus never achieving a goal I set. Meteorites are now considered treasure and will be protected as such in some areas. Best Regards, Adam __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps
I think its a good thing for them to do also. Too many wonderful areas end up ruined due to someone thinking they have a right to simply destroy or steal something that is amazing to many. Pure greed and selfishness are the route of it. I have been enjoying the links, pictures and discussions on this. Greg Catterton www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com IMCA member 4682 On Ebay: http://stores.shop.ebay.com/wanderingstarmeteorites On Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/WanderingStarMeteorites --- On Thu, 11/4/10, impact...@aol.com wrote: > From: impact...@aol.com > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps > To: wahlpe...@aol.com, raremeteori...@yahoo.com, > meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > Date: Thursday, November 4, 2010, 6:30 PM > Hello Sonny, Paul, Adam, > > When I am not dealing with meteorites, I am a member of the > Archaeology > Institute of America - Denver Chapter. Recently a professor > of Archaeology from > the University of Colorado gave us a presentation on the > rock art, > petroglypghs of the southwest that he had been studying for > years, and he explained > that he no longer tell anyone the exact locations of the > sites he knows, he > simply had seen too many vandalized with spray paint, or > chiseled off, > destroying whole sites. > > Also you might remember a raid conducted in Blanding, south > eastern Utah, > last year that netted some 20 or more arrests and the > recovery of room-fulls > of artifacts of all kinds. Private collections? no, big > business. > > It should be a surprise to no one that rangers are asking > more and more > questions, and that the laws are being tightened. > > Anne M. Black > _http://www.impactika.com/_ (http://www.impactika.com/) > _impact...@aol.com_ > (mailto:impact...@aol.com) > > Vice-President, I.M.C.A. Inc. > _http://www.imca.cc/_ (http://www.imca.cc/) > > > In a message dated 11/4/2010 4:14:30 PM Mountain Daylight > Time, > wahlpe...@aol.com > writes: > Hi Adam and List, > > >We can't tell you anything about locations. In > fact there are many > more petroglyphs and over a hundred caves that are > not on;your maps > and we can't tell you anything about." > > This is for the protection and preservation of the native > rock art and > artifacts. I have photographed numerous locations only to > return and to > find the petroglyphs missing or destroyed. One area 20' by > 20' > overhang / wall was covered with numerous carvings and > removed by > heavy equipment. At another location we found what looked > to be a > petroglyph of a man on a horse with one arm. This area was > explored > by Major John Wesley Powell in 1869, the same fate could > possible occur > at this location if it was public knowledge. > > Sonny > > __ > Visit the Archives at > http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps
Hello Sonny, Paul, Adam, When I am not dealing with meteorites, I am a member of the Archaeology Institute of America - Denver Chapter. Recently a professor of Archaeology from the University of Colorado gave us a presentation on the rock art, petroglypghs of the southwest that he had been studying for years, and he explained that he no longer tell anyone the exact locations of the sites he knows, he simply had seen too many vandalized with spray paint, or chiseled off, destroying whole sites. Also you might remember a raid conducted in Blanding, south eastern Utah, last year that netted some 20 or more arrests and the recovery of room-fulls of artifacts of all kinds. Private collections? no, big business. It should be a surprise to no one that rangers are asking more and more questions, and that the laws are being tightened. Anne M. Black _http://www.impactika.com/_ (http://www.impactika.com/) _impact...@aol.com_ (mailto:impact...@aol.com) Vice-President, I.M.C.A. Inc. _http://www.imca.cc/_ (http://www.imca.cc/) In a message dated 11/4/2010 4:14:30 PM Mountain Daylight Time, wahlpe...@aol.com writes: Hi Adam and List, >We can't tell you anything about locations. In fact there are many more petroglyphs and over a hundred caves that are not on;your maps and we can't tell you anything about." This is for the protection and preservation of the native rock art and artifacts. I have photographed numerous locations only to return and to find the petroglyphs missing or destroyed. One area 20' by 20' overhang / wall was covered with numerous carvings and removed by heavy equipment. At another location we found what looked to be a petroglyph of a man on a horse with one arm. This area was explored by Major John Wesley Powell in 1869, the same fate could possible occur at this location if it was public knowledge. Sonny __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps
Hi Adam and List, We can't tell you anything about locations. In fact there are many more petroglyphs and over a hundred caves that are not on;your maps and we can't tell you anything about." This is for the protection and preservation of the native rock art and artifacts. I have photographed numerous locations only to return and to find the petroglyphs missing or destroyed. One area 20' by 20' overhang / wall was covered with numerous carvings and removed by heavy equipment. At another location we found what looked to be a petroglyph of a man on a horse with one arm. This area was explored by Major John Wesley Powell in 1869, the same fate could possible occur at this location if it was public knowledge. I hope you were not in Oregon or Washington State when you talked to this BLM officer. If you were, do not mention the word "meteorites" because they are now off limits there due them being considered treasure the last >year. I contacted BLM in Oregon at the first of year for a project that we were working on and was told it is ok to hunt for meteorites but you may need a permit. Today I contacted another BLM field office and was told by the BLM geologist it should be the same law State to State. As in Nevada, you are allowed to collect up to 250 pounds of minerals, rock and invertebrate fossils a year on BLM-administered land. I should have more information by the middle of next week. Sonny -Original Message- From: Adam Hupe <raremeteori...@yahoo.com> To: Adam <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> Sent: Thu, Nov 4, 2010 12:10 pm Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps Thomas wrote:*** *Last week I was walking along a dry lake bed and looked up to see the inevitable white truck parked next to mine. I walked back and had a nice talk with a BLM officer. He was concerned that we were picking up artifacts, which we were not. My wife mentioned that we were going to look for some petroglyphs and asked him about the roads in that area. "No Mam", he says. "We can't tell you anything about locations. In fact there are many more petroglyphs and over a hundred caves that are not on your maps and we can't tell you anything about." Which makes me think that these locations must be a matter of record somewhere. Does the BLM have secret maps not available to the public?** **I hope you were not in Oregon or Washington State when you talked to this BLM officer. If you were, do not mention the word "meteorites" because they are now off limits there due them being considered treasure the last year. The BLM field personal sure don't act like they are public servants and work for us in many cases. It seems he could have been more helpful and offer some assistance since they work for you. I found that they always seem to be secretive and avoid answering questions, especially in California where one lied to our group and told us we were hiking on radioactive soil. I investigated his claims and found they were false after he managed to scare the hell out of all of us with the radio active nonsense.Best Regards,Adam__Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.htmlMeteorite-list mailing listmeteorite-l...@meteoritecentral.comhttp://six.pairlist.net/mailman/li stinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps
Thomas wrote: Last week I was walking along a dry lake bed and looked up to see the inevitable white truck parked next to mine. I walked back and had a nice talk with a BLM officer. He was concerned that we were picking up artifacts, which we were not. My wife mentioned that we were going to look for some petroglyphs and asked him about the roads in that area. "No Mam", he says. "We can't tell you anything about locations. In fact there are many more petroglyphs and over a hundred caves that are not on your maps and we can't tell you anything about." Which makes me think that these locations must be a matter of record somewhere. Does the BLM have secret maps not available to the public? I hope you were not in Oregon or Washington State when you talked to this BLM officer. If you were, do not mention the word "meteorites" because they are now off limits there due them being considered treasure the last year. The BLM field personal sure don't act like they are public servants and work for us in many cases. It seems he could have been more helpful and offer some assistance since they work for you. I found that they always seem to be secretive and avoid answering questions, especially in California where one lied to our group and told us we were hiking on radioactive soil. I investigated his claims and found they were false after he managed to scare the hell out of all of us with the radio active nonsense. Best Regards, Adam __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps ?
MikeG wrote: "How do we know the BLM people aren't plundering those sites?" I know of one 1622 Spanish ship wreck site in Florida that the Park Service folks 'protect'. I have heard from several different people, including state officers, that some of the people who work at the particular park have been diving on the wreck for many years and taking finds. On the flip side, they aggressively keep others out of the area from even sport diving by harassment and intimidation. There are crooks in all aspects of government, no matter what country you live in. Best regards, Greg Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection NaturesVault (eBay) gmh...@htn.net www.LunarRock.com IMCA 3163 Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault - Original Message - From: "Galactic Stone & Ironworks" To: "David Norton" Cc: Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 8:15 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps ? I would think a FOIA request could get the maps, if they exist. Unless the secret locations are national security related, there is no good reason for BLM to withhold that information. And what makes a BLM officer any more trustworthy than the average citizen? How do we know the BLM people aren't plundering those sites? On 11/4/10, David Norton wrote: If you can find older versions of topo maps you will see more detail in labeling of features such as ruins. The current maps are more "sanitized". -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Thomas Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 8:33 PM Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps ? Last week I was walking along a dry lake bed and looked up to see the inevitable white truck parked next to mine. I walked back and had a nice talk with a BLM officer. He was concerned that we were picking up artifacts, which we were not. My wife mentioned that we were going to look for some petroglyphs and asked him about the roads in that area. "No Mam", he says. "We can't tell you anything about locations. In fact there are many more petroglyphs and over a hundred caves that are not on your maps and we can't tell you anything about." Which makes me think that these locations must be a matter of record somewhere. Does the BLM have secret maps not available to the public? Thomas M Petroglyph pictures if anyone's interested : http://www.photoblog.com/GreyDX/ __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.864 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3236 - Release Date: 11/03/10 15:34:00 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps
Hi all - Yes, they exist but their use is restricted to professional archaeologists. One problem is looting, and even petroglyphs have been cut from walls with saws. The other problem is vandalism. So if you want to photograph petroglyphs, Thomas, the only way to do it will be with the help of a professional archaeologist. FOIA does not apply. E.P. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps ?
I would think a FOIA request could get the maps, if they exist. Unless the secret locations are national security related, there is no good reason for BLM to withhold that information. And what makes a BLM officer any more trustworthy than the average citizen? How do we know the BLM people aren't plundering those sites? On 11/4/10, David Norton wrote: > If you can find older versions of topo maps you will see more detail in > labeling of features such as ruins. The current maps are more "sanitized". > > -Original Message- > From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com > [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Thomas > Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 8:33 PM > Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > Subject: [meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps ? > > Last week I was walking along a dry lake bed and looked up to see the > inevitable white truck parked next to mine. I walked back and had a nice > talk with a BLM officer. He was concerned that we were picking up > artifacts, which we were not. My wife mentioned that we were going to > look for some petroglyphs and asked him about the roads in that area. > "No Mam", he says. "We can't tell you anything about locations. In fact > there are many more petroglyphs and over a hundred caves that are not on > your maps and we can't tell you anything about." > > Which makes me think that these locations must be a matter of record > somewhere. Does the BLM have secret maps not available to the public? > > Thomas M > > Petroglyph pictures if anyone's interested : > http://www.photoblog.com/GreyDX/ > > __ > Visit the Archives at > http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > __ > Visit the Archives at > http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps ?
If you can find older versions of topo maps you will see more detail in labeling of features such as ruins. The current maps are more "sanitized". -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Thomas Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 8:33 PM Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps ? Last week I was walking along a dry lake bed and looked up to see the inevitable white truck parked next to mine. I walked back and had a nice talk with a BLM officer. He was concerned that we were picking up artifacts, which we were not. My wife mentioned that we were going to look for some petroglyphs and asked him about the roads in that area. "No Mam", he says. "We can't tell you anything about locations. In fact there are many more petroglyphs and over a hundred caves that are not on your maps and we can't tell you anything about." Which makes me think that these locations must be a matter of record somewhere. Does the BLM have secret maps not available to the public? Thomas M Petroglyph pictures if anyone's interested : http://www.photoblog.com/GreyDX/ __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps ?
"We can't tell you anything about locations. In fact there are many more petroglyphs and over a hundred caves that are not on your maps and we can't tell you anything about." Characters to say the least. Why mention information that they can't or won't share? If they want to discourage why bring the other sites up? Wonderful photographs! Bill > Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 20:33:07 -0700 > From: tmor...@mind.net > CC: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > Subject: [meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps ? > > Last week I was walking along a dry lake bed and looked up to see the > inevitable white truck parked next to mine. I walked back and had a nice > talk with a BLM officer. He was concerned that we were picking up > artifacts, which we were not. My wife mentioned that we were going to > look for some petroglyphs and asked him about the roads in that area. > "No Mam", he says. "We can't tell you anything about locations. In fact > there are many more petroglyphs and over a hundred caves that are not on > your maps and we can't tell you anything about." > > Which makes me think that these locations must be a matter of record > somewhere. Does the BLM have secret maps not available to the public? > > Thomas M > > Petroglyph pictures if anyone's interested : > http://www.photoblog.com/GreyDX/ > > __ > Visit the Archives at > http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps ?
Hi Thomas, There are petroglyphs all over the desert Southwest and many of the best are not recorded on public sources. There are many scholarly sources that show these sights, but that means you need access to the archeological peer reviewed journals to find them. I've found that many times I might be looking down at the dry lake for meteorites and don't find anything, but if I spend 20 minutes going up a canyon I'll find other treasures. This could be petroglyphs, stone tools, or even a buffalo jump of two on the eastern side of the Rockies. The caves are everywhere, even here in the San Francisco Bay Area there are outcrops in the coastal mountains that have evidence of early life, particularly stone tools and carvings. Do they have secret maps? Maybe, but I've never found any, even back when I did land title data work for the BLM. Rob Holcomb Meteorite Boxes for collectors, http://www.rholcomb.com -- From: "Thomas" Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 8:33 PM Cc: Subject: [meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps ? Last week I was walking along a dry lake bed and looked up to see the inevitable white truck parked next to mine. I walked back and had a nice talk with a BLM officer. He was concerned that we were picking up artifacts, which we were not. My wife mentioned that we were going to look for some petroglyphs and asked him about the roads in that area. "No Mam", he says. "We can't tell you anything about locations. In fact there are many more petroglyphs and over a hundred caves that are not on your maps and we can't tell you anything about." Which makes me think that these locations must be a matter of record somewhere. Does the BLM have secret maps not available to the public? Thomas M Petroglyph pictures if anyone's interested : http://www.photoblog.com/GreyDX/ __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Secret BLM maps ?
Last week I was walking along a dry lake bed and looked up to see the inevitable white truck parked next to mine. I walked back and had a nice talk with a BLM officer. He was concerned that we were picking up artifacts, which we were not. My wife mentioned that we were going to look for some petroglyphs and asked him about the roads in that area. "No Mam", he says. "We can't tell you anything about locations. In fact there are many more petroglyphs and over a hundred caves that are not on your maps and we can't tell you anything about." Which makes me think that these locations must be a matter of record somewhere. Does the BLM have secret maps not available to the public? Thomas M Petroglyph pictures if anyone's interested : http://www.photoblog.com/GreyDX/ __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
