Re: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal for "What's New" listings

[Andy Mabbett]

In message
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Stephen
Paul Weber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes

>For the first item, it didn't help that your page was not quite valid
>,
>however I think I have fixed it now anyway and got around that :)



Oops!

I'd closed an "" twice. Fixed, to now, though.

I wonder why no-on has written an FTP client, with an HTML validator
built in...

>The url must have the xn_auth=no in it (ning hosting), but I have
>removed the stupid submit=Go, the feed validator seems to be accepting
>it fine.

I'm getting errors for both feeds, on the validator. Using:




in:



gives:




(aka )


This feed does not validate.

line 121, column 66: guid values must not be duplicated within a
feed: http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/ladywalk/latest.htm (19
occurrences)
http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/ladywalk/latest.
htm


In addition, this feed has issues that may cause problems for
some users. We recommend fixing these issues.

line 245, column 44: title should not contain HTML: " (6
occurrences)
  Friends" section of our links page.

line 389, column 3: item should contain a guid element

and for:




I get:

This feed is valid, but may cause problems for some users. We
recommend fixing these problems.

line 17, column 3: item should contain a guid element (38
occurrences)

line 74, column 17: description should not contain relative URL
references: ../biblio/BirdLife/1983-0506-42.htm" rel="bookmark"
title="letter in Bird Life magazine

line 100, column 46: Implausible date: Wed, 31 Dec 1969 23:59:59
+ (8 occurrences)


>The second page seems to be coming through fine now as well.

I'm still getting just the one date (in  FireFox's live bookmarks) and
an XML Parse error (in Sage).

>According to my understanding of hAtom, the title of the  tag in
>your page is the date and the contents is the title, which is how the
>processor treats it.

>From source code (simplified):

20th

You're serving:

20th:  

Tue, 26 Sep 2006 20:00:00 +


(note also trailing space in title)


I would expect

2006-09-20

Tue, 26 Sep 2006 20:00:00 +

>Also, last time I checked RSS 2.0 required a full datestamp in that
>format for pubDate... nothing else should be legal

That's annoying. If true, we should recognise that in the hAtom spec.

>let me know if there's any other issues :)


Oh, I will!

Speaking of which...

You seem to be inserting an odd character, for instance in the first
item on the "What's New" page (shown here as an asterisk):

Recent  sightings at our*Ladywalk Reserve.

which shows up as a square in live bookmarks.


Thanks for your interest.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

Free Our Data:  
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Re: [uf-discuss] Microformat's Logos

[Ben Ward]

On 26 Sep 2006, at 10:13, Simone Onofri wrote:

On the left we can insert the Mf logo and on the right, with a pixel
font, with hCalendar, hCards So, I can create it. What formats do
You want?

Aha, that's kinda my point. I question the usefulness of putting a  
microformats logo on a page with ‘hSomething’ text next to it. What  
does that mean to visitors? Admittedly not a lot less than putting  
‘XHTML’ and ‘CSS’ in a pretty box, but for users, it surely makes  
more sense to refer to _Contacts_ and _Events_ respectively, since  
that is the data they're working with.


I mean that in a general way: Naturally from the point of view of  
people involved in the microformats community looking to promote the  
microformats themselves then certainly using the name and logo makes  
sense but using the ‘technical term’ to indicate the presence of  
microformat on a page to _end users _ seems like a bad idea.


Ben
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Re: [uf-discuss] Microformat's Logos

[Ben Ward]

On 26 Sep 2006, at 01:13, Stephen Paul Weber wrote:

Hello,
  I was wondering if there had every been any serious thought to
giving individual microformats logos (for widgets and buttons and
such, etc).


I'm not sure whether it counts as serious thought, but the issue of  
icons for hCard and hCalendar came up when I published my µf UI  
mockup a few months back [1]. I took that the view that in the case  
of hC* it makes most sense for them to adopt icons akin to their  
desktop cousins: Namely contact cards and calendar appointment icons.


Generally speaking, I'm anti creating dedicated icons for  
Microformats since the whole point is not that they _are  
microformats_ the point is the _data_ and the purpose of that data.  
Take Tails as an example, rather than show the µf logo in the Firefox  
status bar, I'd rather like it to show icons related to the type of  
microformat found (again, akin to my mock-up).


hAtom? It's a feed format so should really be indicated with the  
standard feed icon (although I did once create something utterly  
different [2]).


The other formats, be they new concepts (hResume) or just never  
iconified before (xFolk) seem well worth thinking about though.



I created an XOXO logo back when I started the XOXO Blog
.  An
aquaintance recently told me that it was rather ugly and decided he
would try his hand,


Depending on how strongly people are disliking OPML this morning  
(;-)), there is an apparent effort to create a ‘standard OPML  
icon’ [3] . If there's a need, that could possibly be persuaded into  
becoming a ‘standard outline icon’? Depending on whether they're  
prepared to open their scope at all, or whether their aim is to  
promote OPML exclusively.



but of course any of these efforts is far from
'official'.


Well, I never saw if the Microformats Community accepted the idea,  
but Chris Messina has been pushing for the logo to be covered and  
protected under a ‘community mark’ concept where effectively group  
consensus determines acceptable use of the microformats logo. If  
that's actually been adopted here then I would suspect that icons for  
individual formats would be ‘official’ when taken under the same  
community protection.


Ben

[1] http://ben-ward.co.uk/journal/microformats-ui/
[2] http://flickr.com/photos/benward/106037547/
[3] http://www.opmlicons.com/


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Re: [uf-discuss] Microformat's Logos

[Simone Onofri]

2006/9/26, Ben Ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

On 26 Sep 2006, at 10:13, Simone Onofri wrote:
> On the left we can insert the Mf logo and on the right, with a pixel
> font, with hCalendar, hCards So, I can create it. What formats do
> You want?
>
Aha, that's kinda my point. I question the usefulness of putting a
microformats logo on a page with 'hSomething' text next to it. What
does that mean to visitors? Admittedly not a lot less than putting
'XHTML' and 'CSS' in a pretty box, but for users, it surely makes
more sense to refer to _Contacts_ and _Events_ respectively, since
that is the data they're working with.

I mean that in a general way: Naturally from the point of view of
people involved in the microformats community looking to promote the
microformats themselves then certainly using the name and logo makes
sense but using the 'technical term' to indicate the presence of
microformat on a page to _end users _ seems like a bad idea.


Thanks for reply Ben,
So, this is not technical but "marketing" for end users. Also the
presence of a partilular icon (resident on Mf server). Can track how
many users adopt it, and in which page it uses it.

Simone
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Re: Re: [uf-discuss] A bug in the Technorati's events exporting tool

[Brian Suda]

hmm...
1) I'll look into the UTF-8 issue, Your server is NOT sending any
language encoding:
HTTP/1.1 200 OK
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 12:02:13 GMT
Server: Apache
Transfer-Encoding: chunked
Content-Type: text/html

so i might be assuming it as UTF-8? when i run your code through the
W3C tidy, they are NOT finding any encoding so it defaults to


That might be why there are characters incorrectly encoded. Do you
expect UTF-8 or ISO-8859-1?

As for the incorrect dtend: i couldn't find your example in your HTML,
so i can't verify the error. Can you point to an example you know is
incorrect so i can check it?

The one on the 24th:
02:00
converts to:
DTEND:20060924T00Z
which is correct.

Thanks,
-brian


x2v add serious bug with utf-8 (that technorati doesn't have) and now
the hours are false, not buggy but simply false.

this:

...

becomes:

DTEND:20060930T02Z

It's obviously false because:

Z is UTC
+02:00 is CEST

so 2am (CEST) can't be 2am (Z)

http://suda.co.uk/projects/X2V/get-vcal.php?uri=http://www.bikinitest.ch/agenda/2006/09/

Thanks for you work

--
Yoan
>
> -brian
>
> [1] - http://hg.microformats.org/x2v?fd=753da7c7d63c;file=datetime.xsl
>
> On 9/25/06, Yoan BLANC <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I've hCal'd a website that contains with this kind of dtend :
>>
>> ...
>>
>> and feeds.technorati.com/events/ convert it to
>>
>> DTEND:20060924T000Z
>>
>> with se7en 0 instead of six.
>>
>> Test it from there :
>> http://feeds.technorati.com/events/http://www.bikinitest.ch/agenda/2006/09/
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> --
>> Yoan Blanc
>> ___
>> microformats-discuss mailing list
>> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
>> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>>
>
>

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Re: Re: Re: [uf-discuss] XOXO-2-OPML LazyWeb Request

[Brian Suda]

Ah, that will teach me to not run a quick search first!

I'm still interested in any issues with NewsReaders[1] when importing
OPML files generated from XOXO (maybe there aren't any?).

I'll add these implementations to the list and then as folks have
issues they can document them on the wiki.

Anyone else know of more links/issues/thoughts/improvements?

-brian

[1] - http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo-opml-issues

On 9/25/06, Benjamin West <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

This has already been done twice by Les Orchard:
http://decafbad.com/trac/wiki/XoxoOutliner
http://decafbad.com/blog/2005/12/01/feedrolls-in-xoxo-from-opml-via-xslt-and-url-line-magic
http://decafbad.com/2005/11/gopher-ng/xoxo-to-hyperscope.xsl
http://blueoxen.net/c/hyperscope/wiki.pl?HyperScopeTransformers#nidG8

Enjoy.

Ben

On 9/25/06, Brian Suda <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> excellent! looking at the code, we pretty much arrived at the same
> thing - what license do you plan on releasing this as? and when you
> finish you should add it to the Implementations list on the Wiki.
>
> what i'd really like is to find out, via Lazy Web, what and if any,
> New Readers can accept XOXO straight and/or which properly import the
> XOXO2OPML.xsl output.
>
> I also had a look at the NING implimentation and they mostly do the
> same thing, except it is a flat OPML, no nested  and they
> don't manage to create Absolute URLs from any @href, but they do take
> input/output to various formats. Does anyone know who wrote that and
> under what license it is? and we "look under the hood" and see/improve
> what it is doing?
>
> thanks, Anyone else know of any links/services?
> -brian
>
>
> On 9/25/06, Dietrich Ayala <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I wrote this a few months ago, but haven't had time to look at since. YMMV 
:)
> >
> > http://dietrich.ganx4.com/microformats/xoxo2opml.xsl
> >
> > On 9/25/06, Brian Suda <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > As most folks have some sort of Blogroll (hopefully marked-up with XFN
> > > and XOXO[1]). I have begun to look into easily converting those into
> > > OPML. I've only worked with OPML for a day now and it has left a sour
> > > taste in my mouth!!! So i never want to write OPML again, instead i
> > > want to write happy XOXO and build (if needed) OPML from that.
> > >
> > > I went and started in on an XSLT and web service[3] to convert any
> > > HTML page with XOXO into OPML. It isn't perfect, and makes use of the
> > > "Special Properties" section[2] of the XOXO spec - so if you find
> > > issues/errors/problems/ideas let me know.
> > >
> > > I have tested it on my own site*, but now i envoke the Power of Lazy Web!
> > >
> > > I am looking for Folks to do two things:
> > > 1) run their XOXO files through the web sevice and see if they get the
> > > expected OPML back
> > > 1a) which blog platform are you using (if any)
> > > 2) document which NewsReaders/OS correctly consume the OPML.
> > > 2a) does the RSS reader do 'auto-discovery'? meaning if i send it a
> > > link to the blog homepage, does it extract the RSS correctly from the
> > > HTML link?
> > >
> > > I have started a wiki page with a simple structure to let others add
> > > their information too[4].
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > -brian
> > >
> > > [1] - http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo
> > > [2] - http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo#Special_Properties
> > > [3] - http://suda.co.uk/projects/microformats/xoxo/
> > > [4] - http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo-opml-issues
> > >
> > > * - i am aware that not everything in my XOXO list is a feed - some
> > > NewsReaders Ignore them, some try to fetch something and just fail.
> > >
> > > --
> > > brian suda
> > > http://suda.co.uk
> > > ___
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> > > microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
> > >
> > ___
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> > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
> >
>
>
> --
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> http://suda.co.uk
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Re: [uf-discuss] [citation]: Brian's outstanding issues 2:

[Bruce D'Arcus]

On 9/25/06, Ross Singer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


> That would be a reasonable option, though I'd also suggest a more
> generic "document" fallback (because real world citation practice just
> doesn't fit pre-defined boxes). Also, *if* you have a container typed
> as a "journal" then you also need a broader "periodical."
>
Well, periodical is fine... it could be mapped to journal (and
monograph to book -- I mean, that seems like the logical analogy).
The labels aren't that important as long as we can kind of match them
(and, no doubt, OpenURL is an inexact science).  I don't know, there
seems to be a balance that can be struck -- universality vs. immediate
functionality (and I think some balance needs to be struck in both
directions).


I agree, and part of it is just defininig a core model that can be
logically extended without pain. Goes back to my suggestion that
thinking in terms of class hierarchy is helpful. You start with the
basics and then if need be, let people extend them.

So start with:

- Document
  - Book
  - Chapter
  - Article
  - Report
- Collection
  - Periodical
  - Journal
- Event
  - Conference

... or something like that.

In fact, if someone wants to work with me on revising the
documentation for my bibliographic schema (current new working title
is "Description of Citation Sources" (DOCS), but I suck at names, so
that might change) to clearly segment out a core set of types per
above, I'm happy to do that.

Something like this:



Bruce
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Re: [uf-discuss] [citation]: Brian's outstanding issues 2:

[Bruce D'Arcus]

Followup blog post:



Bruce
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Re: Re: [uf-discuss] A bug in the Technorati's events exporting tool

[Brian Suda]

On 9/26/06, Yoan BLANC <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Do you prefer if I send a Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
It's much a matter of your tool. Technorati deals with this page
correctly (except with the dates) so why x2v cannot, strange no?


I'll look into this now that i know you want it to be "iso-8859-1".
The technorati service and my site are running the same XSLT. To
actually execute the transform you need something else. In my case, i
am using PHP, i don't know what technorati uses to call the XML and
XSLT.

Since the XSLT can't detect the HTTP Header mimeType that needs to be
passed in from the executing code (in my case PHP, where i have it
wrong).

I won't go too much technical detail on the discuss list, you can
email me off list for a complete explaination and how the W3C defines
the order of where to look for language encodings, etc.

-brian

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Re: [uf-discuss] Microformat's Logos

[Chris Casciano]

On Sep 26, 2006, at 5:13 AM, Simone Onofri wrote:


2006/9/26, Ben Ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:




Hi,

In a brand policy for it affermation on the community is a good way
use a single logo to diffuse it, also more logos may create confusion.
In this way people teach the new logo on hearts. For more logo or
products we can adopt more solution.

For example the use of various formats logo like this - most used -
8x15 pixel logo.
http://www.societaconoscenza.rai.it/images/w3c/valid-xhtml.png
http://www.societaconoscenza.rai.it/images/w3c/valid-css.png
http://www.societaconoscenza.rai.it/images/w3c/wcag1-AAA.png

On the left we can insert the Mf logo and on the right, with a pixel
font, with hCalendar, hCards So, I can create it. What formats do
You want?



But how many of those will appear on a page? And where? And for what  
formats would you use them? I can easily see a page on a blog  
supporting: hatom, rel-tag, geo, adr, hreview, hcard, hcalendar,  
xoxo, xfn, tagcloud though some people seem to love icons on  
their pages, seems to me to be a bit on the extreme side.


I think the more important logo usage, for the time being, is not to  
show that there is an event/hcalendar item somewhere in the document  
(maybe, if the logo wasn't just put in the template) but as a means  
of highlighting specific elements in a page as a way of letting users  
know "this thing right here, there's something extra going on"


Sure, something like this review - http://placenamehere.com/article/ 
241/TufteAtTheManhattanCenter - could use more instruction for the  
unchristened (it was just a stab) but it does its job of highlighting  
the content even if a user doesn't understand what the logo is -- and  
maybe that's a fine place to stop for some -- not every page on the  
internet has to explain every mechanic of the internet.



In any case, I think a slightly OT to this thread, but more  
interesting case to be solved is how best to author client side  
overlays so that they are as "safe" as possible on the largest number  
of sites. There's been a few recent developments in this area which I  
think are worth looking at if you haven't yet...


http://www.hicksdesign.co.uk/journal/more-microformats-highlighting
http://leftlogic.com/info/articles/microformats_bookmarklet

--
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[ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ] [ http://placenamehere.com ]

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Re: [uf-discuss] A bug in the Technorati's events exporting tool

[Yoan BLANC]

Hi,

Brian Suda wrote:

hmm...
1) I'll look into the UTF-8 issue, Your server is NOT sending any
language encoding:
HTTP/1.1 200 OK
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 12:02:13 GMT
Server: Apache
Transfer-Encoding: chunked
Content-Type: text/html

if my memory is good.

text/html is by default: iso-8859-1
text/xml is by default: utf-8

Do you prefer if I send a Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 
It's much a matter of your tool. Technorati deals with this page 
correctly (except with the dates) so why x2v cannot, strange no?


so i might be assuming it as UTF-8? when i run your code through the
W3C tidy, they are NOT finding any encoding so it defaults to


That might be why there are characters incorrectly encoded. Do you
expect UTF-8 or ISO-8859-1?

DESCRIPTION;LANGUAGE=fr;CHARSET=utf-8:M�langez The Sonics, ...

it tells utf-8 but gives a strangly encoded utf-8 string ('�' should 
be an 'é').'�' looks like BOM, isn't it ?


As for the incorrect dtend: i couldn't find your example in your HTML,
so i can't verify the error. Can you point to an example you know is
incorrect so i can check it?

The one on the 24th:
02:00
converts to:
DTEND:20060924T00Z
which is correct.

It's correct, I'm sorry. My fault.

Btw, I've tried this tool and Google Calendar doesn't deal with Summer 
Time. Bad bad bad.


http://torrez.us/code/googlehcal/converthcalendartogooglecal.user.js

Cheers,

Yoan


Thanks,
-brian


x2v add serious bug with utf-8 (that technorati doesn't have) and now
the hours are false, not buggy but simply false.

this:

...

becomes:

DTEND:20060930T02Z

It's obviously false because:

Z is UTC
+02:00 is CEST

so 2am (CEST) can't be 2am (Z)

http://suda.co.uk/projects/X2V/get-vcal.php?uri=http://www.bikinitest.ch/agenda/2006/09/ 



Thanks for you work

--
Yoan
>
> -brian
>
> [1] - http://hg.microformats.org/x2v?fd=753da7c7d63c;file=datetime.xsl
>
> On 9/25/06, Yoan BLANC <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I've hCal'd a website that contains with this kind of dtend :
>>
>> ...
>>
>> and feeds.technorati.com/events/ convert it to
>>
>> DTEND:20060924T000Z
>>
>> with se7en 0 instead of six.
>>
>> Test it from there :
>> 
http://feeds.technorati.com/events/http://www.bikinitest.ch/agenda/2006/09/ 


>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> --
>> Yoan Blanc
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>
>

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Re: [uf-discuss] A bug in the Technorati's events exporting tool

[Yoan BLANC]

Brian Suda wrote:

On 9/26/06, Yoan BLANC <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Do you prefer if I send a Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
It's much a matter of your tool. Technorati deals with this page
correctly (except with the dates) so why x2v cannot, strange no?


I'll look into this now that i know you want it to be "iso-8859-1".
I just want it to be an usable .ics. Good utf-8 or good iso-8859-1. I'll 
use the technorati service so if the date with a positive timezone 
problem is fixed I don't bother.


Thanks for your work,

Yoan
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Re: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal for "What's New" listings

[Ciaran McNulty]

On 9/26/06, Stephen Paul Weber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Tue, 26 Sep 2006 20:00:00 +

As I said, the title="blah"  on the   is assumed to go with the
date, not the title.


Am I right in thinking that while other microformats specify that
 titles should replace the literal content for parsing, hAtom
only specifies this for dates?

What is the reasoning behind this?

-Ciaran McNulty
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[uf-discuss] Wiki editing issues

[Scott Reynen]

I was trying to edit the Issues section of the naming-principles page:



First I clicked what I thought was the appropriate [edit] link, where  
I was told I needed to login.  After logging in, I was offered a link  
back to the Main Page.  This is issue #1: I should be offered a link  
back to the edit I was about to make.


So I used my back button to flip through my history to where I was  
and then reload the page with my shiny new logged-in cookie, only to  
discover I'd clicked the wrong [edit] link.  I've done this before  
because some wikis put the link before the section and others put it  
after the section, so I went back and clicked the adjacent link.  It  
turns out there is no link to edit the section.  The edit page is here:





The links on the article end at number 14 and don't quite line up to  
the nearby content.  This is issue #2: there should be an edit link  
for every section, near the section.


These are both relatively simple to work around, but I wonder if  
we're maybe losing valuable input in the wiki due to such minor  
difficulties.


Peace,
Scott
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Re: [uf-discuss] A bug in the Technorati's events exporting tool

[Yoan BLANC]

Brian Suda wrote:

Good catch! i had a look at the issue and the problem was that all our
test cases "added" the time from the timezone up to 24, in your
case you were subtracting to get '0' which was not being checked for
so things were going padded then that '0' was being added so we got
'7' instead of '6'. This has been corrected[1]. I have committed the
changes to HG, so anyone at technorati can pull them down (you might
need a few files - i'm not sure which version technorati is running).
I have updated the code at http://suda.co.uk/projects/X2V/ so you can
test it there as well. I will also add a 'subtraction' instance into
the test cases as well.
x2v add serious bug with utf-8 (that technorati doesn't have) and now 
the hours are false, not buggy but simply false.


this:

...

becomes:

DTEND:20060930T02Z

It's obviously false because:

Z is UTC
+02:00 is CEST

so 2am (CEST) can't be 2am (Z)

http://suda.co.uk/projects/X2V/get-vcal.php?uri=http://www.bikinitest.ch/agenda/2006/09/

Thanks for you work

--
Yoan


-brian

[1] - http://hg.microformats.org/x2v?fd=753da7c7d63c;file=datetime.xsl

On 9/25/06, Yoan BLANC <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Hi,

I've hCal'd a website that contains with this kind of dtend :

...

and feeds.technorati.com/events/ convert it to

DTEND:20060924T000Z

with se7en 0 instead of six.

Test it from there :
http://feeds.technorati.com/events/http://www.bikinitest.ch/agenda/2006/09/ 



Cheers,

--
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Re: [uf-discuss] Microformat's Logos

[Simone Onofri]

2006/9/26, Ben Ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

On 26 Sep 2006, at 01:13, Stephen Paul Weber wrote:
> Hello,
>   I was wondering if there had every been any serious thought to
> giving individual microformats logos (for widgets and buttons and
> such, etc).

I'm not sure whether it counts as serious thought, but the issue of
icons for hCard and hCalendar came up when I published my µf UI
mockup a few months back [1]. I took that the view that in the case
of hC* it makes most sense for them to adopt icons akin to their
desktop cousins: Namely contact cards and calendar appointment icons.

Generally speaking, I'm anti creating dedicated icons for
Microformats since the whole point is not that they _are
microformats_ the point is the _data_ and the purpose of that data.
Take Tails as an example, rather than show the µf logo in the Firefox
status bar, I'd rather like it to show icons related to the type of
microformat found (again, akin to my mock-up).

hAtom? It's a feed format so should really be indicated with the
standard feed icon (although I did once create something utterly
different [2]).

The other formats, be they new concepts (hResume) or just never
iconified before (xFolk) seem well worth thinking about though.

> I created an XOXO logo back when I started the XOXO Blog
> .  An
> aquaintance recently told me that it was rather ugly and decided he
> would try his hand,

Depending on how strongly people are disliking OPML this morning
(;-)), there is an apparent effort to create a 'standard OPML
icon' [3] . If there's a need, that could possibly be persuaded into
becoming a 'standard outline icon'? Depending on whether they're
prepared to open their scope at all, or whether their aim is to
promote OPML exclusively.

> but of course any of these efforts is far from
> 'official'.

Well, I never saw if the Microformats Community accepted the idea,
but Chris Messina has been pushing for the logo to be covered and
protected under a 'community mark' concept where effectively group
consensus determines acceptable use of the microformats logo. If
that's actually been adopted here then I would suspect that icons for
individual formats would be 'official' when taken under the same
community protection.

Ben

[1] http://ben-ward.co.uk/journal/microformats-ui/
[2] http://flickr.com/photos/benward/106037547/
[3] http://www.opmlicons.com/


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Hi,

In a brand policy for it affermation on the community is a good way
use a single logo to diffuse it, also more logos may create confusion.
In this way people teach the new logo on hearts. For more logo or
products we can adopt more solution.

For example the use of various formats logo like this - most used -
8x15 pixel logo.
http://www.societaconoscenza.rai.it/images/w3c/valid-xhtml.png
http://www.societaconoscenza.rai.it/images/w3c/valid-css.png
http://www.societaconoscenza.rai.it/images/w3c/wcag1-AAA.png

On the left we can insert the Mf logo and on the right, with a pixel
font, with hCalendar, hCards So, I can create it. What formats do
You want?

--
Simone Onofri

---

W3C Contributing Supporter
Member of International Webmasters Association / HTML Writers Guild
Member of AICA: Italian Association for Computer and Automated Calculation
IWA Certified Web Professional Candidacy Status in HTML
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Microsoft Certified Sales Specialist
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Brainbench Certified Internet Professional Web Developer

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Re: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal for "What's New" listings

[Stephen Paul Weber]

I'm getting errors for both feeds, on the validator. Using:




in:



gives:




(aka )


This feed does not validate.

line 121, column 66: guid values must not be duplicated within a
feed: http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/ladywalk/latest.htm (19
occurrences)
http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/ladywalk/latest.
htm


The converter currently blindly uses the permalink value as GUID, if
you use the same permalink twice in your hAtom you get this error.  It
does not affect most feedreaders, but if you can't change your page
and this is a big issue, I can try hacking a GUID creator into the
code for you :)




In addition, this feed has issues that may cause problems for
some users. We recommend fixing these issues.

line 245, column 44: title should not contain HTML: " (6
occurrences)
  Friends" section of our links page.


The title is drawn directly from entry-title.  This is not actually
invalid RSS, it's just something they don't reccomend, but if you want
it changed, change your hAtom.



line 389, column 3: item should contain a guid element


Again, GUID is blindly drawn from permalink.  No permalink, no GUID.
This again is not invalid, as the results say, only disreccomended.



and for:




I get:

This feed is valid, but may cause problems for some users. We
recommend fixing these problems.


Again, none of these are actual invalidities



line 17, column 3: item should contain a guid element (38
occurrences)


see above



line 74, column 17: description should not contain relative URL
references: ../biblio/BirdLife/1983-0506-42.htm" rel="bookmark"
title="letter in Bird Life magazine


This is in your code... nor is it invalid, just not perfect.  Not sure
if making this an absolute URL (since it's escaped HTML) is really the
converter's job



line 100, column 46: Implausible date: Wed, 31 Dec 1969 23:59:59
+ (8 occurrences)


This is probably because you use a different date format in your hAtom
(Y-m-d) instead of the full hAtom-reccomended datestamp
(Y-m-D\TH:i:sP).  My converter tries to work with alternate date
formats, but it seems that on a few of your dates Y-m-d is being
interpreted differently... I didn't write strtotime, but this code has
been tested with the full datestamp.  If in doubt, use that.




>The second page seems to be coming through fine now as well.

I'm still getting just the one date (in  FireFox's live bookmarks) and
an XML Parse error (in Sage).


Firefox live bookmarks only show items that have a link.  Only one
item in that feed has a rel=bookmark, so only one shows up.  2rss and
other rss2txt stuff show all items just fine.



>According to my understanding of hAtom, the title of the  tag in
>your page is the date and the contents is the title, which is how the
>processor treats it.

>From source code (simplified):

20th

You're serving:

20th:  

Tue, 26 Sep 2006 20:00:00 +


(note also trailing space in title)


The trailing space has been fixed.  The rest of it is correct
according to my understanding of the hAtom spec.




I would expect

2006-09-20

Tue, 26 Sep 2006 20:00:00 +


As I said, the title="blah"  on the   is assumed to go with the
date, not the title.



>Also, last time I checked RSS 2.0 required a full datestamp in that
>format for pubDate... nothing else should be legal

That's annoying. If true, we should recognise that in the hAtom spec.


Why?  It's 100% irrelevant to microformats.  ATOM itself requires a
full timestamp.  Most formats do.  hAtom has it's own datestamp
requirements.  The converter's job is to make sure the RSS
requirements are met... which has nothing to do with you.  Your job is
to meet hAtom, the converter can change the date format just fine.  It
has no bearing on the hAtom spec, and no human being will ever see the
date as it is in the RSS unless for some reason they read the code or
have a feedreader that likes that dateformat.



>let me know if there's any other issues :)


Oh, I will!

Speaking of which...

You seem to be inserting an odd character, for instance in the first
item on the "What's New" page (shown here as an asterisk):

Recent  sightings at our*Ladywalk Reserve.

which shows up as a square in live bookmarks.


I've fixed this now, thanks for the heads-up :)

Re: [uf-discuss] Microformat's Logos

[Stephen Paul Weber]

Actually, it was the OPML logo that caused my friend to critisize my
XOXO logo.  I'm not sure if it could be made a standard 'outline logo'
or not... (I'm hating OPML very much this morning ;) )  Part of the
point is that I link reading lists (in both XOXO and OPML formats)
from my blog, and it would be nice to have icons instead of or to
complement the text (as we do for feeds).  I currently use my XOXO
logo as a sticker to my validator for XOXO marked-up-blogs, but that's
another thing altogether.

On 9/26/06, Chris Casciano <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


On Sep 26, 2006, at 5:13 AM, Simone Onofri wrote:

> 2006/9/26, Ben Ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>>
>>
> Hi,
>
> In a brand policy for it affermation on the community is a good way
> use a single logo to diffuse it, also more logos may create confusion.
> In this way people teach the new logo on hearts. For more logo or
> products we can adopt more solution.
>
> For example the use of various formats logo like this - most used -
> 8x15 pixel logo.
> http://www.societaconoscenza.rai.it/images/w3c/valid-xhtml.png
> http://www.societaconoscenza.rai.it/images/w3c/valid-css.png
> http://www.societaconoscenza.rai.it/images/w3c/wcag1-AAA.png
>
> On the left we can insert the Mf logo and on the right, with a pixel
> font, with hCalendar, hCards So, I can create it. What formats do
> You want?


But how many of those will appear on a page? And where? And for what
formats would you use them? I can easily see a page on a blog
supporting: hatom, rel-tag, geo, adr, hreview, hcard, hcalendar,
xoxo, xfn, tagcloud though some people seem to love icons on
their pages, seems to me to be a bit on the extreme side.

I think the more important logo usage, for the time being, is not to
show that there is an event/hcalendar item somewhere in the document
(maybe, if the logo wasn't just put in the template) but as a means
of highlighting specific elements in a page as a way of letting users
know "this thing right here, there's something extra going on"

Sure, something like this review - http://placenamehere.com/article/
241/TufteAtTheManhattanCenter - could use more instruction for the
unchristened (it was just a stab) but it does its job of highlighting
the content even if a user doesn't understand what the logo is -- and
maybe that's a fine place to stop for some -- not every page on the
internet has to explain every mechanic of the internet.


In any case, I think a slightly OT to this thread, but more
interesting case to be solved is how best to author client side
overlays so that they are as "safe" as possible on the largest number
of sites. There's been a few recent developments in this area which I
think are worth looking at if you haven't yet...

http://www.hicksdesign.co.uk/journal/more-microformats-highlighting
http://leftlogic.com/info/articles/microformats_bookmarklet

--
[ Chris Casciano ]
[ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ] [ http://placenamehere.com ]

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Re: [uf-discuss] Employee number

[Ryan King]

On Sep 25, 2006, at 12:33 PM, Paul Denning wrote:


At 04:29 PM 2006-09-19, Ryan King wrote:

Sounds like a use case for URIs [1]


Life would be better if URI's were used in more places.
I do not want to invent a new URI Scheme (bad idea per W3C TAG [1]).
[1] http://tinyurl.com/roao2


and/or UIDs [2].


It also sounds like a very specific use case.


I disagree.  Employee numbers are used by many many companies.  I  
am talking about standardizing (in the microformats sense) how HTML  
is marked up to indicate that a string on the page is an employee  
number.


What I do with that string is a specific use case, perhaps.

Employee numbers are "for a specific problem domain" as stated in  
the definition of microformats. [0]


Maybe if there was a standard way to find the employee number, some  
generic tools would be developed to do things that use the employee  
number.


I completely agree that if we had a standard way to mark up employee  
numbers, companies (enterprises, even) could build nice, loosely  
coupled tools.


However, that doesn't get around the point that microformats are  
build around existing practices. I was just asking you to build some  
existing practice of your own first.


-ryan
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Re: [uf-discuss] Employee number

[Ryan King]

On Sep 25, 2006, at 6:21 AM, Paul Denning wrote:


At 04:29 PM 2006-09-19, Ryan King wrote:

Create your own
standard markup


If I create my own, then it may be "my" standard, but its a far cry  
from being a widespread or universal standard.


I know. Jumping from no practice to "universal standard" is not a way  
to create a good format.


I am not in the group in my company that develops the applications  
that use employee numbers.  I am a user of those applications.  I  
may develop a bookmarklet that can make it easier to use the  
services that they make available.


If I suggest to them that they add something like

12345

to all pages that display the employee number, they are more likely  
to make the change if I say that this is a microformat that is  
being used across many industries as defined on http:// 
microformats.org .


This sounds like a hypothetical. Have you asked or not?

I don't think any old use of the patterns [1] should be considered  
a "microformat".  To be considered a "microformat", use of these  
patterns [1] should be vetted through a process [2] to gain  
widespread appeal.


I proposed earlier that you create your own format for use inside  
your own company. In that situation, why does it matter if the format  
you're using is in any external sense a microformat?


At Technorati, we have all sorts of internal APIs and formats which  
we've completely made up. The fact that no outside body has endorsed  
them doesn't make them any less useful.


-ryan
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Re: [uf-discuss] [citation]: Brian's outstanding issues 1: UID

[Ryan King]

On Sep 25, 2006, at 5:41 PM, Michael McCracken wrote:


On 9/25/06, Scott Reynen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On Sep 25, 2006, at 4:58 PM, Michael McCracken wrote:

> I like Brian's suggestion to use a type class to denote what  
type of

> UID it is while avoiding a huge list of new class names.
>
> DOI:  href="http://dx.doi.org/stuff";>...
>
> It seems like this need for a typed value recurs elsewhere, and  
a good
> solution could become another useful design pattern for  
microformats

> in general.

Indeed, this looks like what we're already doing in hCard with tel
types.


Yep - http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#type_subproperty_values

So suppose I wanted to apply a different style to different types of
vcard properties - for instance to highlight all 'home' phones. Is
there a good way to do that in CSS?


Not currently. You'd have to either add a classname in the markup or  
write some javascript that read the contents of the .type and adds a  
classname.


-ryan
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Re: [uf-discuss] A bug in the Technorati's events exporting tool

[Ryan King]

On Sep 26, 2006, at 5:44 AM, Brian Suda wrote:

On 9/26/06, Yoan BLANC <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Do you prefer if I send a Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
It's much a matter of your tool. Technorati deals with this page
correctly (except with the dates) so why x2v cannot, strange no?


I'll look into this now that i know you want it to be "iso-8859-1".
The technorati service and my site are running the same XSLT. To
actually execute the transform you need something else. In my case, i
am using PHP, i don't know what technorati uses to call the XML and
XSLT.


We're using PHP, but its a different implementation than yours, Brian.

-ryan
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Re: [uf-discuss] Employee number

[Paul Denning]

At 12:17 PM 2006-09-26, Ryan King wrote:

I am not in the group in my company that develops the applications
that use employee numbers.  I am a user of those applications.  I
may develop a bookmarklet that can make it easier to use the
services that they make available.

If I suggest to them that they add something like

12345

to all pages that display the employee number, they are more likely
to make the change if I say that this is a microformat that is
being used across many industries as defined on http://microformats.org .


This sounds like a hypothetical. Have you asked or not?


Not yet, but I will.
I'll let you know how it goes.

Paul



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Re: [uf-discuss] A bug in the Technorati's events exporting tool

[Ryan King]

On Sep 25, 2006, at 6:48 AM, Brian Suda wrote:

This has been corrected[1]. I have committed the changes to HG, so  
anyone at technorati can pull them down


done.

-ryan
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Re: [uf-discuss] A bug in the Technorati's events exporting tool

[Kevin Marks]

On Sep 26, 2006, at 5:44 AM, Brian Suda wrote:

I won't go too much technical detail on the discuss list, you can
email me off list for a complete explaination and how the W3C defines
the order of where to look for language encodings, etc.



Our own Mark Pilgrim wrote a good explanation of this:

http://www.feedparser.org/docs/character-encoding.html

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Re: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal for "What's New" listings

[Stephen Paul Weber]

No... at least in my understanding the title attribute only replaces
the literal content on certain fields (such as dates) or when there is
only one textual field (such as if this were only a title), never on
something that is both date (title attr) and title (content)...

On 9/26/06, Ciaran McNulty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On 9/26/06, Stephen Paul Weber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Tue, 26 Sep 2006 20:00:00 +
>
> As I said, the title="blah"  on the   is assumed to go with the
> date, not the title.

Am I right in thinking that while other microformats specify that
 titles should replace the literal content for parsing, hAtom
only specifies this for dates?

What is the reasoning behind this?

-Ciaran McNulty
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Re: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal for "What's New" listings

[David Janes]

Quite honestly, I'm still mulling this one over. I note:

- I've never seen it in the wild
- something feels "off" to me about hiding human readable content in an ABBR
- I can think off some places where it would be useful though

I'd be much happier if there was a general rulle across all
microformats that said this was the way to handle ABBRs, either
universally or "in these specific cases".

So where does that leave us? Out of hAtom 0.1 and mulling it over for hAtom 0.2.

Regards, etc...
David

On 9/26/06, Ciaran McNulty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On 9/26/06, Stephen Paul Weber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Tue, 26 Sep 2006 20:00:00 +
>
> As I said, the title="blah"  on the   is assumed to go with the
> date, not the title.

Am I right in thinking that while other microformats specify that
 titles should replace the literal content for parsing, hAtom
only specifies this for dates?

What is the reasoning behind this?

-Ciaran McNulty
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[uf-discuss] How to interpret "abbr"

[Andy Mabbett]

In message
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, David
Janes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes

>I'd be much happier if there was a general rulle across all
>microformats that said this was the way to handle ABBRs, either
>universally or "in these specific cases".

That would be a significant concern for me, too.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards:  

Free Our Data:  
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Re: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal for "What's New" listings

[Andy Mabbett]

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Stephen Paul Weber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes

>The converter currently blindly uses the permalink value as GUID, if
>you use the same permalink twice in your hAtom you get this error.

Is that wise? Using the same link twice is allowed, isn't it?

>  It
>does not affect most feedreaders, but if you can't change your page
>and this is a big issue, I can try hacking a GUID creator into the
>code for you :)

Thank you. You could always append the date-time to the URL.

>>title should not contain HTML: " (6
>> occurrences)
>>   Friends" section of our links page.
>
>The title is drawn directly from entry-title.  This is not actually
>invalid RSS, it's just something they don't reccomend, but if you want
>it changed, change your hAtom.

By "change my hAtom", what do you mean? Surely you're not suggesting I
replace my escaped ampersands, with invalid ampersand characters?

Since there will be other people who use escaped entities, wouldn't it
be better for you, to deal with them by "unescaping" them?

>> line 389, column 3: item should contain a guid element
>
>Again, GUID is blindly drawn from permalink.  No permalink, no GUID.
>This again is not invalid, as the results say, only disreccomended.

Again, is that wise? You could always use the URL of the source page
(+date-time) if no linking URL is present.

>> This feed is valid, but may cause problems for some users. We
>> recommend fixing these problems.
>
>Again, none of these are actual invalidities

No, but I thought you'd want to know of them anyway (be generous in what
you receive strict in what you send...)

>> line 74, column 17: description should not contain relative URL
>> references: ../biblio/BirdLife/1983-0506-42.htm" rel="bookmark"
>> title="letter in Bird Life magazine
>
>This is in your code... nor is it invalid, just not perfect.

Hey, who are you calling an imperfect coder! ;-)

>  Not sure
>if making this an absolute URL (since it's escaped HTML) is really the
>converter's job

Whose then?

If you see "../biblio/BirdLife/1983-0506-42.htm" on a page on the web,
it can have only one meaning, in the context in which you're seeing, it.

>> line 100, column 46: Implausible date: Wed, 31 Dec 1969 23:59:59
>> + (8 occurrences)
>
>This is probably because you use a different date format in your hAtom
>(Y-m-d) instead of the full hAtom-reccomended datestamp
>(Y-m-D\TH:i:sP).

Tath's not my reading of teh spec:



which says:

use the datetime-design-pattern to encode

then in turn:



says:

add a title attribute to the abbr element with the machine
readable ISO8601 datetime or date as the value

and, according to Wikipedia:



the format "-mm-dd" is allowable.


>  My converter tries to work with alternate date
>formats, but it seems that on a few of your dates Y-m-d is being
>interpreted differently...

As 1969!?!

>I didn't write strtotime, but this code has
>been tested with the full datestamp.  If in doubt, use that.

I'm not in doubt ;-)

>> >The second page seems to be coming through fine now as well.
>>
>> I'm still getting just the one date (in  FireFox's live bookmarks) and
>> an XML Parse error (in Sage).
>
>Firefox live bookmarks only show items that have a link.

Bummer, I'll make a separate post about that.

Nonetheless, Sage is now showing some very odd results (do you see that,
or shall I "flickr" a screenshot?)


>> >From source code (simplified):
>>
>> 20th
>>
>> You're serving:
>>
>> 20th:  
>>
>> Tue, 26 Sep 2006 20:00:00 +

>correct
>according to my understanding of the hAtom spec.

I see that's being discussed separately.

>> >Also, last time I checked RSS 2.0 required a full datestamp in that
>> >format for pubDate... nothing else should be legal
>>
>> That's annoying. If true, we should recognise that in the hAtom spec.
>
>Why?  It's 100% irrelevant to microformats.

Not if the hAtom spec says you can do something, which then leads to
unexpected, or even bizarre, results.

>  ATOM itself requires a
>full timestamp.  Most formats do.  hAtom has it's own datestamp
>requirements.  The converter's job is to make sure the RSS
>requirements are met... which has nothing to do with you.  Your job is
>to meet hAtom, the converter can change the date format just fine.  It
>has no bearing on the hAtom spec, and no human being will ever see the
>date as it is in the RSS unless for some reason they read the code or
>have a feedreader that likes that dateformat.

Well, that's a big "unless" (sage, for instance shows the time).

In fact, you're inserting data into the feed, which isn't on my page!

>> You seem to be inserting an odd character

>I've fixed this now, thanks for the heads-up :)

A p

Re: [uf-discuss] Employee number

[David Janes]

I thought I'd just mention a thought that flitted through my head
several months ago. I'm not proposing this at this time as I'd like to
try it in practice first.

Here's the proposal on my blog [1]. The example given is to link
Ryan's trivial hcard on his blog to his more serious hcard on his
website.

(a) identify the url as being a place the identity could be found


 http://theryanking.com";>Ryan


(b) on the identity page, link to the _real_ location of the hcard

http://theryanking.com/blog/contact/#vcard"; />

(c) profit!

This provides a fairly straight forward path to link an arbitrary
hCard somewhere in an enterprise to a standardized identity (probably
somehow linked to an LDAP directory in practice).

I'd also note that Chris's proposal of earlier this month for a
"person profile" is becoming more and more relevant, at least in my
mind. OpenID is off doing their own thing in a big way [2], for what
it's worth.

Regards, etc...
David

[1] http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com/:entry:blogmatrix-2006-09-12-0003/
[2] http://openid.net/specs/openid-attribute-properties-list-1_0-01.html

On 9/26/06, Ryan King <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


I completely agree that if we had a standard way to mark up employee
numbers, companies (enterprises, even) could build nice, loosely
coupled tools.

However, that doesn't get around the point that microformats are
build around existing practices. I was just asking you to build some
existing practice of your own first.

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[uf-discuss] Adding links to hAtom markup for many items on one page

[Andy Mabbett]

Some of my pages. e.g:



have markup like:

   
20th:
[text].
   

Which is, of course, part of hAtom.

Some RSS clients (e.g. FireFox's "live bookmarks") don't recognise feed
items with no URL, so I'd like to expand it by adding a date-related ID:

   
20th:
span class="entry-content">[text].
   

and a ' rel="bookmark" ' tag for "#D2006-09-20".

Is there any way to do that, without having self-referring links? I see
no reason why those URLs need to be visible on the page to which they
refer.

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Re: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal for "What's New" listings

[Stephen Paul Weber]

>The converter currently blindly uses the permalink value as GUID, if
>you use the same permalink twice in your hAtom you get this error.

Is that wise? Using the same link twice is allowed, isn't it?


This is a converter, not a standardiser.  It assumes that your hAtom
is equivalent to legal RSS.  my stdRSS tool (on the same site) DOES
generate GUIDs, I just never bothered with it in the converter.  Since
you seem interested, however, I will definately look into copying over
some of that code :)


>>title should not contain HTML: " (6
>> occurrences)
>>   Friends" section of our links page.
>
>The title is drawn directly from entry-title.  This is not actually
>invalid RSS, it's just something they don't reccomend, but if you want
>it changed, change your hAtom.

By "change my hAtom", what do you mean? Surely you're not suggesting I
replace my escaped ampersands, with invalid ampersand characters?

Since there will be other people who use escaped entities, wouldn't it
be better for you, to deal with them by "unescaping" them?


I am suggesting that since XHTML is disreccomended in RSS  AND
in ATOM title tags that it may not be wise to have it in the
entry-title (ie, using the " character there instead of " would
be perfectly legal and solve the problem, the escaped ampersand is my
code escaping out your HTML entities, which the validator then finds
bad because there should be no enitities in a ).


>> line 389, column 3: item should contain a guid element
>
>Again, GUID is blindly drawn from permalink.  No permalink, no GUID.
>This again is not invalid, as the results say, only disreccomended.

Again, is that wise? You could always use the URL of the source page
(+date-time) if no linking URL is present.


See above, I'll look at it.


>> This feed is valid, but may cause problems for some users. We
>> recommend fixing these problems.
>
>Again, none of these are actual invalidities

No, but I thought you'd want to know of them anyway (be generous in what
you receive strict in what you send...)


:)


>> line 74, column 17: description should not contain relative URL
>> references: ../biblio/BirdLife/1983-0506-42.htm" rel="bookmark"
>> title="letter in Bird Life magazine
>
>This is in your code... nor is it invalid, just not perfect.

Hey, who are you calling an imperfect coder! ;-)

>  Not sure
>if making this an absolute URL (since it's escaped HTML) is really the
>converter's job

Whose then?

If you see "../biblio/BirdLife/1983-0506-42.htm" on a page on the web,
it can have only one meaning, in the context in which you're seeing, it.


Hmm... you may have convinced me, although I'm not sure how to go
about this.  So far the converter has been assuming that the hAtom was
structured according to feed design rules (ie, only use absolute
URLs), because that's what I do.  I should probably look at adding
some code to detect  tags with relative URLs though...


>> line 100, column 46: Implausible date: Wed, 31 Dec 1969 23:59:59
>> + (8 occurrences)
>
>This is probably because you use a different date format in your hAtom
>(Y-m-d) instead of the full hAtom-reccomended datestamp
>(Y-m-D\TH:i:sP).

Tath's not my reading of teh spec:



which says:

use the datetime-design-pattern to encode

then in turn:



says:

add a title attribute to the abbr element with the machine
readable ISO8601 datetime or date as the value

and, according to Wikipedia:



the format "-mm-dd" is allowable.


Ah, well, whatever the case may be, I did finally find a minor bug in
the date processor, so this should be fixed now.


Nonetheless, Sage is now showing some very odd results (do you see that,
or shall I "flickr" a screenshot?)


screenshot, I don't have Sage installed anymore, haven't for awhile


>> >Also, last time I checked RSS 2.0 required a full datestamp in that
>> >format for pubDate... nothing else should be legal
>>
>> That's annoying. If true, we should recognise that in the hAtom spec.
>
>Why?  It's 100% irrelevant to microformats.

Not if the hAtom spec says you can do something, which then leads to
unexpected, or even bizarre, results.


I have finally figured out what you were talking about.  The erroneous
data was part of the bug in the date processor.  The full timestamp is
still there, but it now is properly representative of your data :)


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Re: [uf-discuss] Adding links to hAtom markup for many items on one page

[brian suda]

Andy Mabbett wrote:
>
> 20th:
> span class="entry-content">[text].
>
>
> and a ' rel="bookmark" ' tag for "#D2006-09-20".
>
> Is there any way to do that, without having self-referring links? I see
> no reason why those URLs need to be visible on the page to which they
> refer.
>   
The tricky part is that you can only add a rel attribute to 'a' and
'link' elements. If you added it to the  it would be invalid HTML.

-brian
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Re: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal for "What's New" listings

[brian suda]

Stephen Paul Weber wrote:
>> If you see "../biblio/BirdLife/1983-0506-42.htm" on a page on the web,
>> it can have only one meaning, in the context in which you're seeing, it.
>
> Hmm... you may have convinced me, although I'm not sure how to go
> about this.  So far the converter has been assuming that the hAtom was
> structured according to feed design rules (ie, only use absolute
> URLs), because that's what I do.  I should probably look at adding
> some code to detect  tags with relative URLs though...

--- i'm not sure what the underlying code you are using is, but in the
hg.microformats.org there is a pretty mature XSLT to build and absolute
href. The other option, is that ATOM uses the XML:BASE attribute, so if
you could look for a  or  in the HTML and use that
in the conversion?

>> >> >Also, last time I checked RSS 2.0 required a full datestamp in that
>> >> >format for pubDate... nothing else should be legal
>> >>
>> >> That's annoying. If true, we should recognise that in the hAtom spec.
>> >
>> >Why?  It's 100% irrelevant to microformats.
>>
>> Not if the hAtom spec says you can do something, which then leads to
>> unexpected, or even bizarre, results.
>
> I have finally figured out what you were talking about.  The erroneous
> data was part of the bug in the date processor.  The full timestamp is
> still there, but it now is properly representative of your data :)
again, not sure your underlying code, but i have been burned (plenty of
times) by date processing in XSLT (there is no built in date-time
functions) so i have split out the datetime.xsl and that should/can be
pulled into any other XSLT to process dates. It's not prefect but the
more people who use it, the more bugs we will find and fix.

-brian
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Re: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal for "What's New" listings

[Andy Mabbett]

In message
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Stephen
Paul Weber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes

>> >The converter currently blindly uses the permalink value as GUID, if
>> >you use the same permalink twice in your hAtom you get this error.
>>
>> Is that wise? Using the same link twice is allowed, isn't it?
>
>This is a converter, not a standardiser.  It assumes that your hAtom
>is equivalent to legal RSS.  my stdRSS tool (on the same site) DOES
>generate GUIDs, I just never bothered with it in the converter.  Since
>you seem interested, however, I will definately look into copying over
>some of that code :)

Thank you.

>> >>title should not contain HTML: " (6
>> >> occurrences)
>> >>   Friends" section of our links page.
>> >
>> >The title is drawn directly from entry-title.  This is not actually
>> >invalid RSS, it's just something they don't reccomend, but if you want
>> >it changed, change your hAtom.
>>
>> By "change my hAtom", what do you mean? Surely you're not suggesting I
>> replace my escaped ampersands, with invalid ampersand characters?
>>
>> Since there will be other people who use escaped entities, wouldn't it
>> be better for you, to deal with them by "unescaping" them?
>
>I am suggesting that since XHTML is disreccomended in RSS  AND
>in ATOM title tags that it may not be wise to have it in the
>entry-title (ie, using the " character

What character?

>there instead of " would
>be perfectly legal and solve the problem, the escaped ampersand is my
>code escaping out your HTML entities, which the validator then finds
>bad because there should be no enitities in a ).

it seems reasonable to me that, if the HTML in question contains "&"
then the corresponding title component of the feed should contain
"&". Why is that not the case?

>> If you see "../biblio/BirdLife/1983-0506-42.htm" on a page on the web,
>> it can have only one meaning, in the context in which you're seeing, it.
>
>Hmm... you may have convinced me, although I'm not sure how to go
>about this.  So far the converter has been assuming that the hAtom was
>structured according to feed design rules (ie, only use absolute
>URLs), because that's what I do.

But it's not a requirement of hAtom, is it?

>I should probably look at adding
>some code to detect  tags with relative URLs though...

Thank you again.

>> Nonetheless, Sage is now showing some very odd results (do you see that,
>> or shall I "flickr" a screenshot?)
>
>screenshot, I don't have Sage installed anymore, haven't for awhile

Thanks, but one of your other fixes seems to have resolved that ;-)

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Re: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal for "What's New" listings

[Stephen Paul Weber]

>I am suggesting that since XHTML is disreccomended in RSS  AND
>in ATOM title tags that it may not be wise to have it in the
>entry-title (ie, using the " character
What character?


the quotation-mark charater, which is legal everywhere in XHTML except
inside an attribute.



>there instead of " would
>be perfectly legal and solve the problem, the escaped ampersand is my
>code escaping out your HTML entities, which the validator then finds
>bad because there should be no enitities in a ).

it seems reasonable to me that, if the HTML in question contains "&"
then the corresponding title component of the feed should contain
"&". Why is that not the case?


It is the case, and that's exactly what the script does.  The feed
validator just warns you about it, that's all, it's perfectly valid.


>> If you see "../biblio/BirdLife/1983-0506-42.htm" on a page on the web,
>> it can have only one meaning, in the context in which you're seeing, it.
>
>Hmm... you may have convinced me, although I'm not sure how to go
>about this.  So far the converter has been assuming that the hAtom was
>structured according to feed design rules (ie, only use absolute
>URLs), because that's what I do.

But it's not a requirement of hAtom, is it?


Certainly not, it was more of a shortsightedness on my part.


>I should probably look at adding
>some code to detect  tags with relative URLs though...

Thank you again.


:)



>> Nonetheless, Sage is now showing some very odd results (do you see that,
>> or shall I "flickr" a screenshot?)
>
>screenshot, I don't have Sage installed anymore, haven't for awhile

Thanks, but one of your other fixes seems to have resolved that ;-)


good


One other clarification to those asking, this code is in no way built
on XSLT (a technology with which I am only vaguly farmiliar) and works
in pure PHP.  Thus it does not currently really even see what tags are
inside entry-content (it just escapes them to text), but I will code
around this and get the resolution working :)

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Re: [uf-discuss] Adding links to hAtom markup for many items on one page

[Andy Mabbett]

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, brian suda
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes

>The tricky part is that you can only add a rel attribute to 'a' and
>'link' elements. If you added it to the  it would be invalid HTML.

As I thought. Perhaps this needs to be addressed in the next "edition"
of hAtom?

If there's no URL specified, and the entry has an ID, then the URL could
default to:

[page URL]#[ID]

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Re: [uf-discuss] Adding links to hAtom markup for many items on one page

[David Janes]

Very interesting idea.

Also, I wouldn't mind have "author" default to something if it
couldn't be found -- I'll probably want to look at Atom in the context
of data feeds to see what they do first.

Regards, etc...

On 9/26/06, Andy Mabbett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, brian suda
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes

>The tricky part is that you can only add a rel attribute to 'a' and
>'link' elements. If you added it to the  it would be invalid HTML.

As I thought. Perhaps this needs to be addressed in the next "edition"
of hAtom?

If there's no URL specified, and the entry has an ID, then the URL could
default to:

[page URL]#[ID]

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Re: [uf-discuss] Wiki editing issues

[Andy Mabbett]

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Scott
Reynen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes

>So I used my back button to flip through my history to where I was  and
>then reload the page with my shiny new logged-in cookie, only to
>discover I'd clicked the wrong [edit] link.  I've done this before
>because some wikis put the link before the section and others put it
>after the section, so I went back and clicked the adjacent link.  It
>turns out there is no link to edit the section.  The edit page is here:
>
>tion=15>
>
>The links on the article end at number 14 and don't quite line up to
>the nearby content.  This is issue #2: there should be an edit link
>for every section, near the section.

I've often found the same problem but have never determined the cause -
does it perhaps relate to the location of the TOC?

Also each link says "edit", but the target (and thus action) is
different. This is bad, from an accessibility PoV.

Finally (from me, for now), I've had an e-mail from someone wanting to
comment on the "species" proposal, saying:

I've just tried creating an account on the microformats site so
that I can join in with the discussion, but whenever I try to
sign up, I get a message telling me 'You have not specified a
valid user name'. I've tried various permutations without any
luck. Did you have any trouble when signing up?

and, indeed I did - and couldn't figure out why the user name I wanted
to use was not being accepted.
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[uf-discuss] Introductory message, again

[Andy Mabbett]

I have just had an e-mail from a friend, to whom I'd recommended uFs:

Just had a quick look at http://microformats.org but they only
say what it's FOR not what it IS - unless you dig deeper than I
did.

Please see :

http://microformats.org/wiki/what-are-microformats#Andy_Mabbett

for my proosed alternative wording.
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Re: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal for "What's New" listings

[Andy Mabbett]

In message
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Stephen
Paul Weber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes

>> >I am suggesting that since XHTML is disreccomended in RSS  AND
>> >in ATOM title tags that it may not be wise to have it in the
>> >entry-title (ie, using the " character
>> What character?
>
>the quotation-mark charater, which is legal everywhere in XHTML except
>inside an attribute.

Doh! I thought we were talking about "&".

Note though, that " and " are not the same.

AIUI, under uF principles, I should not have to change my existing
content, to wrap it in uF.
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Re: [uf-discuss] Adding links to hAtom markup for many items on one page

[Andy Mabbett]

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
David Janes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes

>On 9/26/06, Andy Mabbett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>>Perhaps
[the issue of hAtom entries with no URL]
>>needs to be addressed in the next "edition" of hAtom?
>>
>> If there's no URL specified, and the entry has an ID, then the URL could
>> default to:
>>
>> [page URL]#[ID]

OK; I've marked up a page:



with an ID on each of many hAtom entries (they're "li"s), in case anyone
wants to play with the concept.

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Re: [uf-discuss] Tentative proposal for "What's New" listings

[Stephen Paul Weber]

In message
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Stephen
Paul Weber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes

>> >I am suggesting that since XHTML is disreccomended in RSS  AND
>> >in ATOM title tags that it may not be wise to have it in the
>> >entry-title (ie, using the " character
>> What character?
>
>the quotation-mark charater, which is legal everywhere in XHTML except
>inside an attribute.

Doh! I thought we were talking about "&".

Note though, that " and " are not the same.

AIUI, under uF principles, I should not have to change my existing
content, to wrap it in uF.


You don't... as I keep pointing out, this 'issue' the validator brings
up is not a validity issue, but an issue of personal preference.


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Re: [uf-discuss] Introductory message, again

[Guillaume Lebleu]

Andy,

My take on the introductory message: 
http://microformats.org/wiki/what-are-microformats#Guillaume_Lebleu


Guillaume

Andy Mabbett wrote:

I have just had an e-mail from a friend, to whom I'd recommended uFs:

Just had a quick look at http://microformats.org but they only
say what it's FOR not what it IS - unless you dig deeper than I
did.

Please see :

http://microformats.org/wiki/what-are-microformats#Andy_Mabbett

for my proosed alternative wording.
  

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Re: [uf-discuss] Proposal: species

[Andy Mabbett]

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Tantek Çelik
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes

>Andy, one thing that might help for the species discussion is if you
>could cite URLs to a site or sites with millions (or even thousands) of
>clearly obvious uses of "species" terminology

Are you (and everyone) content that we have sufficient such examples,
now?

  

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[uf-discuss] Nice people

[Andy Mabbett]

Nice people we have round here...

 

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Re: [uf-discuss] Nice people

[Scott Reynen]

On Sep 26, 2006, at 6:05 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote:


Nice people we have round here...

 


If you have problems with specific people, please take it up with  
them (or us, as the case may be) privately.  I believe everyone who  
participated in the referenced discussion is identified in the wiki  
[1], except me, and my IRC login (sreynen) should hopefully make my  
identify obvious enough.  This email list is not an appropriate forum  
for discussions that have only a tangential relationship to  
microformats.  The IRC channel may not be an appropriate forum for  
such discussions either, but it's not as closely monitored or topic- 
focused, as IRC never is.


If there's something you feel the community as a whole should do to  
address this problem, please explain.


I believe we do have many very nice people around here.

[1] http://microformats.org/wiki/irc

Peace,
Scott
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Re: [uf-discuss] Nice people

[Christopher St John]

On 9/26/06, Scott Reynen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On Sep 26, 2006, at 6:05 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote:

> Nice people we have round here...
>
>  

If you have problems with specific people, please take it up with
them (or us, as the case may be) privately.


Seeing as it took place on a public, logged IRC channel that
is referenced as part of the canonical discourse on microformats,
it seems to me that the people involved were the ones who
made it relevant to this list.

Everybody is aware that the IRC channel is "for posterity", right?
The point of the logs being to inform the interpretation of the
specs and aid in creating new ones, yes?

--
Christopher St. John
http://artofsystems.blogspot.com
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Re: [uf-discuss] Nice people

[Christopher St John]

On 9/26/06, Andy Mabbett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Nice people we have round here...



Most of them are. Some of them definitely are not. A thick skin
is very helpful. I'm not one of the cabal who runs the place, but
then again, most of the people on the list aren't either, and I
suspect that in the end, continued solid contribution will trump
the sort of obnoxious, unprofessional, childish crap that sometimes
passes for discourse around here.

I don't know if you've been on any standards committees before,
but the same sort of stuff goes on at the W3C and Oasis, it's just
that the participants tend to be a little more discreet (and/or
a little less publically embarassing to us all)

If it helps, I found the request for "examples of species name use
on the web" (with a snide expectation that it was a rare
sort of thing) very funny. Strange, there seems to be an abundance
of beetles around here, I wonder what to call them?

Keep on truckin'

-cks


--
Christopher St. John
http://artofsystems.blogspot.com
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Re: [uf-discuss] Nice people

[Christopher St John]

On 9/26/06, Christopher St John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On 9/26/06, Andy Mabbett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Nice people we have round here...
>

Most of them are. Some of them definitely are not.



Fsck. That was supposed to be private. I apologise to everyone.

-cks
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