Re: [uf-discuss] rel-tag on delicious

2007-09-23 Thread Pelle W

Christian Heilmann wrote:

Does anybody know why delicious isn't microformatted?  I can only guess, either 
yahoo is starving the site, or they are against the concept.  It sticks out 
like a sore thumb in my weblife...on occasion when demonstrating Operator to 
friends I go to delicious assuming they have some, alwasy forgetting because it 
seems like a perfect site to host MF's.


I can ask, but how is a social bookmarking site a perfect example to
host MFs? Surely the idea is that instead of keeping local copies
(which you'd do if you export microformats) you keep all of them in a
central online repository to maintain them.
  
I would say because practically all data shown on delicious can me 
marked up with some sort of microformat.
rel-bookmark would help to separate bookmarked links from the 
delicious-interface.
rel-tag would give users of Operator or similar a possibility of easily 
viewing the available tags and look some of them up on other sites 
supporting tags, Technorati for example.
hCards and perhaps XFN would enable the user to extract userdata, 
perhaps for some kind of an addressbook or perhaps for another social 
network.
The latter is described in 
http://microformats.org/wiki/social-network-portability


/ Pelle
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Re: [uf-discuss] Microformats and Firefox 3

2007-09-05 Thread Pelle W

Farndon, Tony skrev:
2. Microformats are in page, and there needs to be some way 
to indicate the microformats are available on the page that 
doesn't offend page authors. How can we accomplish this?


I second the opinion that this is a design issue and therefore should be
handled by css in some way. This would fit into the web design paradigm
of markup for data, css for design. My slightly different css approach;
create custom css property:value pairs, such as that of
-moz-border-radius.
If something should add anything it should be added by a javascript 
which the Firefox people may very well supply. To have CSS instructing 
Firefox to add something into the HTML-data seems wrong, it doesn't 
really separate the data and content from the design. If something 
should instruct anything to add new HTML-data to a document it has to be 
either the HTML itself or JavaScripts. CSS can be used to style what's 
added, but should do nothing more than that in my opinion because it's 
only purpose is to add a deisgn and if it's removed the page should work 
equally well - only not as beutiful as with the CSS added.


Let's just have a javascript like the one here below. If Firefox 
supplies a microformats object by default then all webpages can rely on 
that in Firefox it can easily be extended to add support for newer 
microformats like Prototype and other javascript frameworks today 
extends basic DOM-objects and such. If someone would like they could 
even code their own implementation of such a solution which can be used 
in other browsers than Firefox until those browsers adds support 
themselves either directly or indirectly through extensions.


script type=text/javascript
   if (typeof microformats.hcard == 'object') {
   // Add some actions to the page in any way, like this simple and 
bad way
   document.write('a href=# 
onclick=microfrmats.hcard.add(this.parentNode);Add to addressbook/a');

   }
/style

There are probably better arguments for choosing a solution like this 
over a CSS and/or HTML based solution, I hope someone more experienced 
than me can tell us some of them.


/ Pelle W
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Re: [uf-discuss] Firefox 3 Javascript Semantic Data UI Control

2007-09-05 Thread Pelle W

Manu Sporny wrote:

Dimitri Glazkov wrote:
  

I really like the idea of allowing additional control over
presentation via pseudo-classes, but I am worried that :target isn't
quite right, at least if we follow the spec to the letter
(http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-selectors/#target-pseudo), specifically
since this pseudo-class is not dynamic and there may or may not be a
fragment identifier on the microformat.


The SemanticDataUI object would be accessible, from Javascript, using
the “semanticDataUI” global variable attached to the currently loaded
document. A publisher could disable the semantic data UI in any browser
by running the following line of Javascript:

semanticDataUI.disableUI();

Users could control whether or not they allow web pages to disable the
Semantic Data UI. Most would probably allow web pages to disable the
semantic data UI.

Publishers could manually disable the Semantic Data UI and use CSS to
mark up their hCards, hCalendars, and hAudios.

This would give cross-browser UI control to both the users and the
publishers without having to do any CSS magic.
Interesting! Perhaps semanticData.ui.disable() instead and have 
functions like semanticData.getDataById and other DOM-like functions and 
when you have some data you have fooDataObject.action() or something and 
fooDataObject.dataType just like nodeType exists in DOM etc.


Something like a SDOM (SemanticDataObjectModel) standard?

/ Pelle
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Re: [uf-discuss] Microformats and Firefox 3

2007-09-05 Thread Pelle W

Farndon, Tony wrote:
And I'm with Tony (and others) on the protocol approach. 


I should, however, add that I do have one concern about the protocol
approach; it does not degrade gracefully. Users of FF2, or IE7 or Safari
etc will just get a big old unknown protocol error.

This is easily countered by the designer checking for the navigator with
js or using !--[if IE] and hiding the protocol actions element, but
this of course requires extra work on their part.

T.
That issue could perhaps be solved by either browser extensions or 
separate programs with similar roles as feed readers has for RSS.
It would perhaps not be too mad of an idea to have Thunderbird or 
something taking care of the microformats for such browsers since 
Thunderbird and such programs have greater use of the data contained in 
the microformats. Like the hCard into Thunderbirds addressbook and the 
hCalendars into the Lightning extension.


Alex Faaborg wrote a clever mail about this earlier and presented a few 
issues and a few possibilites related to protocols. It was then 
discussed that perhaps there should be one protocl for each microformat? 
That would if so enable different programs to easily take care of 
different microformats.


You'll find Faaborg's mail here (is this the usual way to share an older 
mail on a mailing list or how is more common?):

http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2007-August/010536.html

/ Pelle W

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Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Microformats UI in Firefox 3

2007-09-04 Thread Pelle W

Breton Slivka wrote:
1. You guys are proposing a radical change in microformats, and in the 
way microformats work, and have given us just a week to discuss/object
2. If radical change is implemented in firefox, all existing 
microformatted content will fail to work in firefox3
3. said radical change includes inline styles- functionally identical 
to presentational html tags.
4. In order to play nice with firefox 3, all publishers of 
microformatted content would need to add extra stuff to their markup.

5. That extra stuff would *only* be necessary for firefox
It's more of an addition than a radical change to the microformats which 
enables the designer to add Firefox-actions right into their own design 
although such actions will always also be available through Firefox own 
UI and the suggested addition wouldn't change how any existing 
microformats would work or should work. It would be totally voluntarily. 
If it would be part of microformat standard it would work in any tool 
which implements it.


Although I think the suggestion that was made at first wasn't that good, 
the core problem it tries to solve is relevant: A need for a 
standardized way for a webdesigner to add interaction between the 
microformatted data and the parsers actions into their own designs.


Could the Microformat community come up witha standard way of 
interacting with the parsers through JavaScripts or perhaps through new 
URL:s like mailto: or feed: or in another way? Or is such a standard 
perhaps out of this community's scope?


/ Pelle W
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Re: [uf-discuss] Microformats UI in Firefox 3

2007-08-28 Thread Pelle W

Alex Faaborg skrev:
This is a bit of a hack, but it is also considerably easier than 
asking the author to write javascript to check navigator.userAgent, 
know which browsers handle microformatted content (and subsequently 
update this as it changes), and then display the link accordingly.  
Also, I'm interested in allowing user generated microformatted content 
to be added to blogs and wikis where javascript is not commonly allowed.
A bit of friendly fedback here, not saying that I would be right at all 
only sending out some thoughts that may be useful or may be garbage.


Instead of having to checking whether the userAgent is right or wrong in 
my javascript - wouldn't it be possible to check for the presence of any 
hCard-related function instead? This way it would at least be 
theoretically possible for any web browser to add such a function, 
either officially or through a third party plugin, and so trigger the 
website to view the possible actions.


It seems a bit unusual to me to have a class like user-action which 
the browser should find and change to visible and make a link out of or 
something. Couldn't another solution be to add some kind of a 
protocol? Like uf://foobar.com/foo.html#bar-hcard Firefox could 
process such a link by extracting the hcard with the id bar-hcard and 
for Internet Explorer a third party program could deal with the link in 
the same way that Skype deals with call: and Thunderbird deals with 
mailto: or I could choose to hide the link from IE users. This would be 
a more usual approach because it already exists for other kind of data 
like mailto: , javascript: , call: etc.



/ Pelle W
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Re: [uf-discuss] Microformats UI in Firefox 3

2007-08-28 Thread Pelle W

André Luís skrev:

One thing I need someone to clarify:

Is that  div.user-action inserted by the user-agent, in this case,
Firefox 3? Or do the authors have to include that code on their pages?

This wasn't very clear to me...
  
I've understood that it's inserted by the web developer to enable 
him/her to implement the Microformat-actions in their own designs and 
it's suggested that the class user-action should be used to indicate 
that something is meant to be a link to such an action.

On 8/28/07, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  

In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Alex
Faaborg [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes


The last class is new:
 div class=user-action style=visibility:hiddenAdd to Address
Book/div

The text Add to Address Book is hidden by default, unless the browser
(or an extension) recognizes user-action
  

...or unless the user agent has no CSS functionality available.

Is that degrading gracefully?

What I don't understand in thate example is that the user-action is 
applied onto a div which doesn't contain any links or buttons. An action 
is most often initiated by clicking on either a link or a button. Will 
the browser add such a control? If so the control over the design won't 
be completely handed over to the designer which it should be.


Another problem might be that the browser will be changing the 
visibility property because that disables the designer from turning of 
the action-div's visibility. For example - the designer wants the 
action-button/link to only be shown when you hover over the hCard it's 
connected to, therefor the designer hides it by setting the visibility 
property to hidden and changing it upon hover. If the browser then 
changes the visibility the design won't look like it was intended to.


If a class is to be used it should only connect an action and not add 
anything or change anything about the site.


/ Pelle W
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Re: [uf-discuss] Microformats UI in Firefox 3

2007-08-28 Thread Pelle W

This idea is really good, the best possible I think.

If there is a need for interaction on a website then the options are 
limited to the browser UI and the script languages available, right?
And this way you're suggesting the user will have the possibility of 
adding their own interaction with javascript and the user will have a 
fallback on the browser UI.


This way there are the fewest possible restrictions for the designers 
letting them choose themselves how they would like to solve this problem.


The functionality you previosuly suggested can for example easily be 
added by a third party javascript to make it easier for non javascript 
gurus to add actions to their sites, but that should really be the job 
of such javascripts like it's javascripts like Lightbox job to show 
galleries in a fashionable way. The question about any class names would 
also be up to such javascripts.


/ Pelle W


Alex Faaborg wrote:
Perhaps instead of new classes and protocols, we could just do this 
completely in javascript.  Here is a general example, probably all the 
function names would end up being different:


div id=hcard-Alex-Faaborg class=vcard
 span class=fnAlex Faaborg/span
 div class=orgMozilla/div
 div class=adr
  div class=street-address1981 Landings Dr. Building S/div
  span class=localityMountain View/span
,
  span class=regionCA/span
,
  span class=postal-code94043/span
  script type=text/javascript
 if (navigator.microformatAware(hCard)){
  document.write(a href='#' 
onclick='navigator.sendToAddressBook('hcard-Alex-Faaborg')'Add to 
Address Book/a);

  document.write(, )
  document.write(a href='#' 
onclick='navigator.sendToMap('hcard-Alex-Faaborg')'Send to Map/a);

  }
  /script
 /div
It seems you'll still need a way for the browser to inject UI for 
actions the content creator didn't foresee.
We can include these actions on context menus, and in the browser UI 
(similar to Operator's interface).  However, I'm not sure content 
creators would be too happy with Firefox modifying their pages by 
literally injecting UI.


-Alex

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Re: [uf-discuss] stickers

2007-08-06 Thread Pelle W
What I know about Microformat-stickers is that Jeremy Keith wrote 
something about such and had some Flickr-photos of them.

Url: http://adactio.com/journal/1323/

/ Pelle

Dimitri Glazkov skrev:

Wait, there are stickers? *frantically searches archives*

:DG
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Re: [uf-discuss] Ufs on bbc.co.uk/music

2007-07-05 Thread Pelle W

Michael Smethurst skrev:

But that wasn't the demarcation line I was talking about - I meant when does
a person become an organisation? Is it a function of production or fame or
what? If Bob Dylan is considered an organisation why not Bill Clinton?
  

Let's see if I can express my thoughts in a good way here.
What makes it difficult with artists is that some are just artists and 
others are bands. Politicians and other celebraties are always individuals.
Why do you say that Beatles made Yellow Submarine? Because thats the 
trademark they choosed to put on their music.
Here in Sweden we have a rapper who releases music under the trademark 
of Timbuktu. Everybody knows him as Timbuktu as if that would have been 
his name - not as many knows him as his real name Jason Diakité.
That a musical masterpiece by Elton John is made by Elton John - that 
everybody knows because he has choosen to write his own name on his music.


If I have a company, which I do, I can name that company after me myself 
Pelle W Inc. or I can name it something else, at least theoretically, 
that I come up with like Happy Fantasies Inc. or Richard Smith Inc..
If I choose to have my own name as my company name that doesn't make it 
less of a company name. Right?


Can't the same be said about artists? If a artist choose to have their 
own names as the trademark of their music - it's their choice but it 
doesn't make the rademark any less of a trademark. I'm just thinking - 
not saying that this is right at all.


/ Pelle


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Re: [uf-discuss] definitive hCard on a page

2007-07-04 Thread Pelle W

Thom Shannon skrev:
What would be the way to markup a hCard as being the definitive hCard 
on a page. For example the page owner or author. My blog has hCards of 
friends and commenters, as well as my own. But I'd like a programmatic 
way to identify mine, mainly to access information about me at my openid.


Would it be a category? And is there any convention emerging for the 
name of such a category?
What about using XFN and that way defining you as yourself?| For me that 
would be:|


div class=vcard
  a class=url fn href=http://pelle.vox.nu/; rel=mePelle Wessman/a
/div

/ Pelle
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Re: [uf-discuss] Ufs on bbc.co.uk/music

2007-07-03 Thread Pelle W

Andy Mabbett skrev:
Unfortunately, the database doesn't tell me whether an artist is a 
person or a group.
I empathise - I had the same trouble with bands vs. artist in the 
relevant infobox on Wikipedia, Fortunately, it is possible for other 
parameters used there, to distinguish between them.

So in the meantime it's the best I can do with available data...
I wonder whether no microformats would be better than broken 
microformats?


What do others think?
I think that maybe all artist kan be considered a company because 
frankly their names are trademarks no matter if their own, a bands or 
something else.
Britney Spears or Paris Hilton could both practically be caled Britney 
Spears Inc. or Paris Hilton Inc.
It's better with broken microformats than no - but perhaps it's better 
broken the way I suggest than the way it is now?


/ Pelle

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Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

2007-06-29 Thread Pelle W

Paul Wilkins skrev:

From: Alex Faaborg [EMAIL PROTECTED]
| Mozilla's user experience team is going to continue brainstorming the
best way to expose microformat detection to end users, along with the 
rest of the mozilla community.  I'll post updates to this list from  
time to time, and it will be interesting to see what interfaces and  
names other people come up with as well.

The RSS feeds are accessed in the browser through the feed button.
So it makes sense that the microformat data should be accessed through 
the data button.


I do like data, it's concise and is easy to explain.

Q: What kind of data can I get from the data button?
A: Contact details, calender entries, geographic locations, . . .

Q: Does the data button always get the information?
A: No, only when the page author has specially marked out those parts 
of the page.
Data sounds good but since RSS also is data the RSS-feed should perhaps 
be reached from below the data-button to emphasize the similarities.


/ Pelle
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Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

2007-06-29 Thread Pelle W

Alex Faaborg skrev:

They imply opening or saving a completely separate document/file
The interface model doesn't necessarily have to actually match the 
implementation model, but yeah, I'm still not a huge fan of the 
attachments idea.


Pointers for: http://tinyurl.com/278y8g
Hyperlayers for: http://tinyurl.com/26mqf3
(or layers for short)
Those names sound very catchy - but in my ears perhaps a bit too much 
like something coming from a classic PR-campaign. At least Hyperlayers 
- image an ad with the text Increase your productivity with the all new 
Firefox 3 now with hyperlayers. Very cool - but does it actually tell 
us something?


Can't it be kept simple? Does it have to be a new name - couldn't it 
rather be a description of an action - like data extraction? (Don't know 
if thats the right spelling though)
That would tell what it does and it would be less PR-like and more 
honest(?) - it's just plain simply describing what this new thing does 
and that's what I think is most important. Keep it simple.
Both of those names have previously been shot down inside Mozilla, 
ironically enough because some people felt that the interface-level 
name should emerge out of the microformats community.  In the past Web 
browsers have lagged far enough behind the evolution of the Web that 
names have already been established (like with Feeds).
Well - that is ironic :) Perhaps the real place for this would be 
among the comments on a YouTube-movie featuring this in action or in 
blogosphere? But that does however not stop us from having this 
discussion...


/ Pelle
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Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

2007-06-29 Thread Pelle W

Alex Faaborg skrev:

couldn't it rather be a description of an action - like data extraction?
Yeah, maybe just name the button/menu Send Data.  I think the 
sending is probably more important than the extraction.

-Alex

Send data sounds perfect to me - much simplier than extraction!
/ Pelle
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Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

2007-06-28 Thread Pelle W

On 6/27/07, Tara Hunt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Although I heart the idea of language for non-experts, I'm wondering
how public facing Microformats, as a general term, is.

I've thought about this before...I can see the specific microformats,
like hCard and hCal and hReview being public facing...and, in reality,
these are pretty descriptive. Maybe they just need some sort of iconic
marker (like RSS has)...which I think has been attempted before.
I agree with Tara here. Microformats is interesting for developers 
because it tells us in what way the solution works but for my mum it 
would tell nothing. My mom knows however what an address is and what a 
calendar is and because of that it's the microformats in itself that 
should be given common names like web feeds for RSS. I don't know but 
have XML been given a humane name yet? Because XML is to RSS what 
Microformats is to hCard.


If Microformats should be given a more humane name then that would be 
something about semantics. Semanticdata perhaps - but it wouldn't make 
anyone happier I think because the only ones who would be interested 
would be those who already knows what Microformats is.

As far as talking about Microformats under one banner, I don't know if
the distinction really needs to be made. i think that may be what POSH
was trying to say: use plain old semantic html...but even that is
talking to developers and advanced content producers.

I agree wth Tara here also.
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Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

2007-06-28 Thread Pelle W

Alex Faaborg skrev:

Therefore, uFs don't need a user-facing name - their
applications do.
If Operator and Firefox 3 are in a category of uF enabled 
applications, what should that category of applications be called?  Or 
another way of putting it:


Feed Readers :: RSS
__ :: microformats
I would say that Microformat = XML and therefor you say that this reads 
microformats as much as you can say this reads XML.
What you can say is that this reads RSS or this reads XHTML or this 
reads some other cool XML-namespace and the same is true for 
microformats - you can say that this reads hCards, that this reads 
hCalendars etc.


NetNewsWire 3 reads hCards and hCalendars for example.

But I kind of understand you because Firefox 3 and Operator are 
supposed to read with plugins and as such can read anything there's a 
plugin for, but it shouldn't replicate feed readers but rather 
something above feed readers which perhaps also includes them.


Wouldn't metadata-enabled browser be one possible description? All 
microformats that someones mum would be interested in would contain some 
kind of metadata - wouldn't it? Another description could be 
semantically enabled browsing. Both those description should include 
RSS and other similar XML-namespaces containing metadata/semantics 
relevant to the browser.


/ Pelle
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Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

2007-06-28 Thread Pelle W

Frances Berriman skrev:

On 28/06/07, Thom Shannon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Exactly! We need a brand and a website that introduces people to the
concept, tells them where to get the plugins or the right browsers and
possibly encourages them to put pressure on their web guys to implement
them, Want x's on your site? Then use Microformats

I think better encouragement would come from putting energy into
creating tools, plug-ins, examples and tutorials for those people -
rather than trying to re-brand something that's already something else
re-branded.
I agree - and with the adoption of those tools words will naturally 
emerge that describes the activity in a good way like photoshopping and 
googling has emerged even though their creators didn't wan't them to 
emerge...


/ Pelle
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Re: [uf-discuss] Re: microformats for normal people, like my mum

2007-06-28 Thread Pelle W

David Janes skrev:

On 6/28/07, Pelle W [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I would say that Microformat = XML and therefor you say that this reads
microformats as much as you can say this reads XML.

Well, microformats are one thing and XML is another so Microformat !=
XML. Or do you mean Terminology-wise/linguistically can be used in
the same, in which case I ask does anyone say 'this reads XML' as a
_marketing_ term. We already have a perfectly good technical name for
microformats, i.e. microformats.
Both are methods of describing data in a way computers understand which 
means that it's what is described by those methods that should be named 
and not the methods because no one but developers really care about them 
and that's the main problem with giving Microformats a different name I 
think - it doesn't do anything in itself and the things described by the 
different standards is so simple and natural that it's hard to give 
them any special name.


What differs a microformat address from a usual address on a webpage? 
Well - the latter kan be read by computers but it's still the same 
address so it's still just a simple address. It adds nothing other than 
the possibility of the browser understanding and extracting it and it's 
the same with many XML-standards such as RSS - it adds data which the 
browser/computer can understand and extract.


If firefox needs a catchy phrase - then perhaps use Increased ability 
to extract data from webpages or something - because it's just as basic 
as that - no new names because a name is only useful for developers who 
needs to distinguish between methods - but the user doesn't care about 
the methods - they care about result!


/ Pelle
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Re: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum

2007-06-28 Thread Pelle W

Ryan King skrev:

On Jun 28, 2007, at 6:13 AM, Frances Berriman wrote:

On 28/06/07, Thom Shannon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Exactly! We need a brand and a website that introduces people to the
concept, tells them where to get the plugins or the right browsers and
possibly encourages them to put pressure on their web guys to implement
them, Want x's on your site? Then use Microformats

I think better encouragement would come from putting energy into
creating tools, plug-ins, examples and tutorials for those people -
rather than trying to re-brand something that's already something else
re-branded.
I couldn't agree more. I think this discussion is rather unproductive 
for this community. Just build the tools, design them well and get 
people to use them. If you never use the word 'microformat' in your 
application, that's fine. No harm, no foul, no need to build a new brand.
To use a cool name for this - do it web 2.0 - we as a relatively small 
group of which I'm relatively new can't decide what people will call 
this and FF3 perhaps shouldn't call it something. Everybody can choose 
their own name and it will - by the power of web 2.0 which microformat 
is very much a part of - become a good word in the end.

Probably none of us here is the right ones to decide something like this...

/ Pelle

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Re: [uf-discuss] geo in Firefox 3 (as: Microformats gets strong showing in Firefox 3 UI)

2007-06-15 Thread Pelle W

Alex Faaborg skrev:

The problem with geo is that it is horrible to show in a UI
Mike: I think we should still try to support geo.  Exposing the user 
to geographic coordinates isn't ideal, but I think that it is 
considerably better than hiding the action entirely.


I've been talking to Mike Beltzner (UX lead at Mozilla) about 
microformats UI over the last week, and we are now considering a UI 
similar to the one Pelle proposed 
(http://pelle.vox.nu/koncept/locationBarMenu_pelle_small.jpg), in 
addition to the mouse cursor change.
One could perhaps have map-thumbnails describing the position of a geo 
briefly? Enabling the user to se if the position is in the USA or in 
Asia and perhaps in which state without the need of clicking through to 
an external map service. Perhaps even a thumbnail could be viewed in 
connection to the notification of the microformat?
We are also thinking about using the cursor change for other types of 
content handling, like links with specific protocols (mailto:, 
webcal:, etc.) and files that will either download or launch a 
particular application.  So this UI is not specific to microformats, 
but content handling in general.
It could also be done for different file extensons, at least those 
connected to plug-ins,
like the extension Link Alert, 
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/3199, does today.
There's quite some people who are annoyed when Adobe Reader starts up 
when they thought they opened a website...


The difficulty with this could be when the webpage changes to much - if 
a link to a mailadress is triggered by JavaScript instead of a mailto: 
to prevent spambots for example. If the user expects a different cursor 
then perhaps he/she will be confused. Then again - one could have a 
special JavaScript icon - although a link can be both a mailto: and a 
JavaScript which directs the click somewhere else... The came thing 
applies to microformats - if they are moved, hidden or replaced with 
JavaScript or CSS - like imagereplacement technologies - then my 
contactinfo in an image might not trigger an icon although I have a 
hidden microformat for it...


Perhaps the solution should be a new microformat which can be used to 
connect my image with contactinfo to my elements with a hCard? Perhaps 
such a microformat could also be used to describe what a link that 
triggers a javascript event actually does? Perhaps it could be made to 
trick people into believing that they're clicking something else than 
they actyally are - but that's the same case as if the cursor triggers 
on a link with a mailto: and an onclick-event.



/ Pelle
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Re: [uf-discuss] Re: geo in Firefox 3 (as: Microformats gets strong showing in Firefox 3 UI)

2007-06-15 Thread Pelle W

Toby A Inkster skrev:

Pelle W wrote:
  
It could also be done for different file extensons, at least those 
connected to plug-ins,


This would reassert the false notion that there's such a thing as a file
extension on the web.
  
Well - nothing is fool-proof and something that ends with .pdf is most 
of the time is a pdf-document. One could perhaps use mime-types or such 
- but then one would need to ask the servers for it.
So - as I previously suggested - either a new microformat defining the 
type or just guessing because guessing might be better than nothing.


Could such a microformat be designed like a href=foobar.com/foo/bar/ 
rev=application/pdf perhaps?
With pointing to a hidden hCard like a href=samesite#anchor 
rev=microformat/hcard with or without an anchor defining the position 
of the microformat?


Just pure brainstorming here - I have no idea myself even if this would 
be good or not. There would perhaps be some use for it?


/ Pelle
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Re: [uf-discuss] Microformats gets strong showing in Firefox 3 UI

2007-06-06 Thread Pelle W

Alex Faaborg skrev:
If the user is viewing a page with microformats and RSS through a 
secure connection, they will have a yellow location bar containing a 
favicon, lock icon, feed icon, and microformat icon.  We are worried 
that this is too much visual clutter.  Options include things like 
merging the feed icon and microformat icon, taking security UI out of 
the location bar, moving some of these things to secondary UI, etc. 
I would suggest having something like a notification pop-up, like I have 
modified one of your pictures into: 
http://pelle.vox.nu/koncept/locationBarMenu_pelle_small.jpg
Yellow to emphasize that it's a notification that appears for like 10 
seconds if one has that enabled - yellow is the colour for that in the 
ajax-world as many may know.
The notification-pop-up from the URL-bar icon would show the more hidden 
preferences of a website - like all the metadatas in the likes of RSS, 
microformats etc. but it could maybe also if the site is secure.
If I click the icon - maybe I should get a pop-up-thing again or maybe a 
sidebar or a dialog should open showing all of the info found.


Perhaps that would be a good solution and just to add - I made this 
mockup, but I'm not behind making anything Firefoxy - I'm just a swedish 
webdeveloper who's interested in microformats and the modern web ;)


/ Pelle
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Re: [uf-discuss] Microformats gets strong showing in Firefox 3 UI

2007-06-05 Thread Pelle W

On 6/5/07, Montgomery, Mike [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I like the idea of an icon that is activated when microformat content is
available as mentioned by Paul.  It would provide an immediate visual
cue that information is available without direct user interaction such
as having to hover of content or right-clicking.  It would also provide
a way to indicate information that may be hidden on the page.  I picture
it being similar to the RSS feed icon.  Maybe it is something that also
appears in the address bar.
I also agree with Mike, Paul and others here. I read that someone raised 
the question about keyboard navigation and the only real solution to 
that problem I think would be to lift microformats out of the actual 
webpage and into the the browser UI.


Mike Kaply wrote:

I'm considering experimenting with putting a microformats icon on the
URL bar similar to the RSS icon, but that would be Operator only. The
Firefox folks specifically don't want to clutter up that bar.
That would be the absolutely best solution - I hope that the Operator 
will show the Firefox crew that Microformats isn't clitter.


Mike Kaply wrote:

The basic problem with Firefox is that they don't want to clutter the UI
with something that might not be used a lot (this is a statement about
all microformats in the UI)
What they referrer to here is whether the users will actually use the 
microformats and not if the developers will support it - right? Because 
if the developers don't support it it won't clutter the UI - only if the 
users don't use it it becomes clutter.
I personally think that microformats support would be more popular than 
RSS-support. The latter has only been adopted by some people and have a 
bit of a learning curve - a microformat almost doesn't have a learning 
curve because it is information in a way we've all already worked with.



I personally would say that what would clutter Firefox is when it 
intrudes into my webpage. What wouldn't clutter Firefox is a friendly 
notification of the presence of some hidden data.


/ Pelle
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Re: [uf-discuss] Microformats gets strong showing in Firefox 3 UI

2007-06-04 Thread Pelle W

Mike Kaply skrev:

On 6/3/07, John Beales [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Things can still change, but after talking a bit with the Firefox 3
 folks - Microformats are starting to look more and more like they're
 going to be supported in a big way in the next major release of the 
browser.


 
http://blog.mozilla.com/faaborg/2007/06/01/the-user-interface-of-firefox-3-features/ 



That looks great, it'll greatly improve the marketability of
microformats.  One thing though - and if you could tell me the correct
place to let the Mozilla folks know about this - they should be
careful about changing the cursor for a microformat - sometimes an
hCard, for example, will be the whole page, or at least a large
portion of it, so no matter where the cursor is it'll be in the
microformat state.

I'm the one to talk to. And yeah, I think the cursor isn't so good for
that reason. I'm still waiting for someone to come up with the
perfect microformats UI. 
I think that since users now know that you find RSS through the Firefox 
UI and not on the webpage itself often then it should be the same with 
microformats.
What if I hide some of my microformats just because I have replaced it 
with an image on another part of the screen?
That doesn't mean that my microformats shouldn't be parsed - they should 
be and since they can't be showed on the webpage they have to be showed 
in the adressbar or similar like with the RSS - thats the expected place 
for metadata.


There will be sort of a built in API for microformats as far as I have 
understood. Therefor I think that if there should be something added to 
the webpage it should be added by me after I have detected 
microformat-support with javascript and can add the proper buttons myself.


Well - thats my thoughts - hope it gives something.

/ Pelle


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