Re: WTMP Question
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On Sun, 20 Dec 2015 12:37:30 -0800 Philip Guenther wrote: > On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 3:31 PM, Duncan Patton a Campbell > wrote: > > I've a question about last/utmp/wtmp that someone here should be > > able to answer. > > > > At the shell I do > > > > # date > > Sat Dec 19 16:29:07 MST 2015 > > # last > > > > wtmp begins Sat Dec 19 16:29 2015 > > > > This appears to set the beginning time to "now" > > every time I run the thing. WTF sets the > > lower bound so as to see back from "now"? > > > > It is not exactly obvious from the man pages how this works. > > I'm sure it's there, I just can't find it. > > Well, you apparently know that the data comes from /var/log/wtmp, so > what's the status of that file? It should be a normal file of > non-zero length. If it's a symlink to /dev/null or something bogus > then you need to figure out why and maybe reinstall from scratch. > # ls -l /var/log/wtmp - -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 0 Dec 19 04:00 /var/log/wtmp > Also, you failed to include the dmesg or even mention what version > you're running, so maybe we should just go with "you're clearly > running an out of date version and probably screwed up an upgrade > across the time_t size change"... > I'm running 5.7 dmesg as follows: OpenBSD 5.7 (GENERIC.MP) #881: Sun Mar 8 11:04:17 MDT 2015 dera...@amd64.openbsd.org:/usr/src/sys/arch/amd64/compile/GENERIC.MP real mem = 4009295872 (3823MB) avail mem = 3898650624 (3718MB) mpath0 at root scsibus0 at mpath0: 256 targets mainbus0 at root bios0 at mainbus0: SMBIOS rev. 2.5 @ 0x9f000 (66 entries) bios0: vendor American Megatrends Inc. version "2301" date 08/09/2012 bios0: ASUSTeK Computer INC. M4A88TD-V EVO/USB3 acpi0 at bios0: rev 2 acpi0: sleep states S0 S1 S3 S4 S5 acpi0: tables DSDT FACP APIC MCFG OEMB SRAT HPET SSDT acpi0: wakeup devices PCE2(S4) PCE3(S4) PCE4(S4) PCE5(S4) PCE6(S4) PCE7(S4) PCE9(S4) PCEA(S4) PCEB(S4) PCEC(S4) SBAZ(S4) P0PC(S4) GEC_(S4) UHC1(S4) UHC2(S4) USB3(S4) [...] acpitimer0 at acpi0: 3579545 Hz, 32 bits acpimadt0 at acpi0 addr 0xfee0: PC-AT compat cpu0 at mainbus0: apid 0 (boot processor) cpu0: AMD Phenom(tm) II X4 840 Processor, 3214.69 MHz cpu0: FPU,VME,DE,PSE,TSC,MSR,PAE,MCE,CX8,APIC,SEP,MTRR,PGE,MCA,CMOV,PAT,PSE36,CFLUSH,MMX,FXSR,SSE,SSE2,HTT,SSE3,MWAIT,CX16,POPCNT,NXE,MMXX,FFXSR,PAGE1GB,LONG,3DNOW2,3DNOW,LAHF,CMPLEG,SVM,EAPICSP,AMCR8,ABM,SSE4A,MASSE,3DNOWP,OSVW,IBS,SKINIT,ITSC cpu0: 64KB 64b/line 2-way I-cache, 64KB 64b/line 2-way D-cache, 512KB 64b/line 16-way L2 cache cpu0: ITLB 32 4KB entries fully associative, 16 4MB entries fully associative cpu0: DTLB 48 4KB entries fully associative, 48 4MB entries fully associative cpu0: AMD erratum 721 detected and fixed cpu0: smt 0, core 0, package 0 mtrr: Pentium Pro MTRR support, 8 var ranges, 88 fixed ranges cpu0: apic clock running at 200MHz cpu0: mwait min=64, max=64, C-substates=0.0.0.0.0, IBE cpu1 at mainbus0: apid 1 (application processor) cpu1: AMD Phenom(tm) II X4 840 Processor, 3214.31 MHz cpu1: FPU,VME,DE,PSE,TSC,MSR,PAE,MCE,CX8,APIC,SEP,MTRR,PGE,MCA,CMOV,PAT,PSE36,CFLUSH,MMX,FXSR,SSE,SSE2,HTT,SSE3,MWAIT,CX16,POPCNT,NXE,MMXX,FFXSR,PAGE1GB,LONG,3DNOW2,3DNOW,LAHF,CMPLEG,SVM,EAPICSP,AMCR8,ABM,SSE4A,MASSE,3DNOWP,OSVW,IBS,SKINIT,ITSC cpu1: 64KB 64b/line 2-way I-cache, 64KB 64b/line 2-way D-cache, 512KB 64b/line 16-way L2 cache cpu1: ITLB 32 4KB entries fully associative, 16 4MB entries fully associative cpu1: DTLB 48 4KB entries fully associative, 48 4MB entries fully associative cpu1: AMD erratum 721 detected and fixed cpu1: smt 0, core 1, package 0 cpu2 at mainbus0: apid 2 (application processor) cpu2: AMD Phenom(tm) II X4 840 Processor, 3214.31 MHz cpu2: FPU,VME,DE,PSE,TSC,MSR,PAE,MCE,CX8,APIC,SEP,MTRR,PGE,MCA,CMOV,PAT,PSE36,CFLUSH,MMX,FXSR,SSE,SSE2,HTT,SSE3,MWAIT,CX16,POPCNT,NXE,MMXX,FFXSR,PAGE1GB,LONG,3DNOW2,3DNOW,LAHF,CMPLEG,SVM,EAPICSP,AMCR8,ABM,SSE4A,MASSE,3DNOWP,OSVW,IBS,SKINIT,ITSC cpu2: 64KB 64b/line 2-way I-cache, 64KB 64b/line 2-way D-cache, 512KB 64b/line 16-way L2 cache cpu2: ITLB 32 4KB entries fully associative, 16 4MB entries fully associative cpu2: DTLB 48 4KB entries fully associative, 48 4MB entries fully associative cpu2: AMD erratum 721 detected and fixed cpu2: smt 0, core 2, package 0 cpu3 at mainbus0: apid 3 (application processor) cpu3: AMD Phenom(tm) II X4 840 Processor, 3214.31 MHz cpu3: FPU,VME,DE,PSE,TSC,MSR,PAE,MCE,CX8,APIC,SEP,MTRR,PGE,MCA,CMOV,PAT,PSE36,CFLUSH,MMX,FXSR,SSE,SSE2,HTT,SSE3,MWAIT,CX16,POPCNT,NXE,MMXX,FFXSR,PAGE1GB,LONG,3DNOW2,3DNOW,LAHF,CMPLEG,SVM,EAPICSP,AMCR8,ABM,SSE4A,MASSE,3DNOWP,OSVW,IBS,SKINIT,ITSC cpu3: 64KB 64b/line 2-way I-cache, 64KB 64b/line 2-way D-cache, 512KB 64b/line 16-way L2 cache cpu3: ITLB 32 4KB entries fully associative, 16 4MB entries fully associative cpu3: DTLB 48 4KB entries fully associative, 48 4MB entries fully associative cpu3: AMD erratum 721 detected and fixed cpu3: smt 0, core 3, package 0 ioapic0 at mainbus0: apid 4 pa 0xfec0, versio
Re: BIOS call fallback
> Given that most OS mailing lists/forums seem to be dominated with hardware > problems my basic question is does OpenBSD have a fallback option to just use > BIOS routines to get hardware working if even slower than feasible but at > least working? No. > And if not why not? Because the kernel cannot know what memory it should leave untouched, to use such BIOS functions. Also, BIOS functions are traditionally coded only powerful enough bootup style operation. Their primitives simply are not powerful enough to match the concurrency, locking, memory mapping, etc needs of the kernel. Especially the concurrency - most use poll-style operations. Nothing else would happen at the same time. Finally, because BIOS on all platforms are full of history and BUGS. We'd rather jump off a cliff.
Re: text-mode gui
Luke Small said: > There are other features that inexperienced users could benefit from, like > selecting a mirror for PKG_PATH and putting it into .profile . I think that > it would be convenient to be able have a new user not to have to wade > through man pages to learn about "echo " PKG_PATH..." >> /root/.profile" or > learn vi to install kde or gnome or an easier to use text editor like pico. > I suspect you are driving away folks by making it only useable by folks > that REALLY want to use it and it doesn't have to be that way. Ironically installer creates /etc/pkg.conf with package path set to mirror used during installation. That puts "easier" editors like pico, as wel as gnome and kde, just one pkg_add away. On the other hand, if someone doesn't want to learn shell syntax and other Unix basics, we would do a misservice by hiding the fact that this knowledge is strictly necessary on OpenBSD. -- Dmitrij D. Czarkoff
Re: text-mode gui
On 20 Dec 2015 at 17:25, Luke Small wrote: 8<-- lots of drivel snipped --->8 >... but a >normal user shouldn't have to wade through man pages to discover how to fix >... This is the crux of the issue -- linux upbringing! If you bothered to read the FAQ or scan through some message threads on the mailing lists you would know that: a) ALL users are expected to read the man pages, because b) OpenBSD deservedly prides itself on the accuracy, completelness, and readability of the documentation -- the man pages and the FAQ. If you value gooey compexity because you cannot be bothered to learn about the tool you plan to use, please go away and pick one of the many shiny toys that promise you what you want. I, for one, very much appreciate the OpenBSD way of no-nonsense, minimalist interfaces balanced with very comprehensive documentation. > > > -Luke > > On Sun, Dec 20, 2015 at 3:33 PM, wrote: > > > On Sun, 20 Dec 2015 14:03:18 -0600 Luke Small > > wrote: > > > > > I don't know the best way, but I like how there are "check-boxes", from > > > what I recall, in lynx webpages. > > > > And? Bookmarks or... direct private cumulus clouds of edible sugar, > > preferably in cyanide algae nuances with self attaching axons. > > > > > Maybe full-disk encryption and maybe home > > > folder encryption if it is available are the only remaining installer > > > > It's called a directory, which is a file, and not a drawer, and not a > > folder, neither a closet, nor a wardrobe nor even a chest. > > > > > options that you don't have to have prior specialized knowledge to > > perform, > > > that you can't do after you boot into the system. > > > > I'm sorry to break up the bubble for you but prior knowledge is a > > prerequisite and this is not exclusive to OpenBSD. Anything you can do > > in the installer can also be done after installation, except probably > > finding a list of nice check boxes in a JavaScript web page. For that > > you need to use www. > > > > > If there are other > > > things, then it may become a little less tedious for less experienced > > folks > > > to look at all the options at once, rather than having to start over. > > > > Many inexperienced folds tried OpenBSD first and did not have to become > > experienced in other complicated installers. Can you elaborate on > > this? You want a long check list, is that it? > > > > > If > > > there are any irreconcilable differences in options, JavaScript can more > > > easily display that the other changes are incompatible by changing the > > > other options back. > > > > The editor said: scratch this part, messy wording. > > > > > But maybe the OpenBSD way is about no surprises, but it > > > doesn't seem right to only be able to boot into the system in the way you > > > want, > > > > It is a cargo "principle of least astonishment" to be found in another > > set of online docs elsewhere, unrelated perhaps, no? > > > > > if you have the mindset of a Computer Scientist like us, and read the > > > right configuration webpages. > > > > Correction, man pages. They are in English, comprehensive to lower > > intermediate level readers. > > > > > Things like not having softdep mounted file > > > systems by default really tripped me up for a couple versions. > > > > There is a clear section on this in the Frequently Asked Questions. It > > is a very nice idea to read these prior or during installation on the > > other computer, or why not print out sections you best liked or thought > > useful for the upcoming installation process. > > > > > I have > > > virtualbox HDs and I had to keep backups in case Windows did something > > > funny, because I sometimes couldn't repair the file systems. > > > > Can you point where the docs say "install in a virtualbox" or any other > > virtual software brand for what it matters? > > > > > It seems like > > > something that should be an option in the installer, or a default. It > > would > > > be nice to do that with noatime and maybe an optional mfs or tmpfs > > mounted > > > /tmp folder like I have now. > > > > So you're basically proposing to rewrite the installer in JavaScript to > > add the noatime and softdep mount options, add full disk and home > > directory encryption, use the SSL tool kit and also make it like a text > > menu installer with a lot of check boxes and... web based interface, > > and be able to install in a virtual machine with memory based file > > systems? > > > > Why don't you just pick the install media of the operating system that > > offers you these nice goodies, and save yourself the rewrite. Oh, and > > then come back teach how to do it. > > > > If this seems too much to ask, just simply use the installer in OpenBSD > > as it is, and after a couple of iterations, and some (minutes/years) of > > enlightenment, you will start to appreciate the time and effort is has > > saved you and the powerful options provided without constraints. > > > > What you're suggesting
BIOS call fallback
Hi, forgive my ignorance and lack of knowledge on OS fundamentals. As my signature suggests I am a complete beginner with 0x00 knowledge of the subject. Regardless of that fact here comes my rather naive question: Given that most OS mailing lists/forums seem to be dominated with hardware problems my basic question is does OpenBSD have a fallback option to just use BIOS routines to get hardware working if even slower than feasible but at least working? And if not why not? 0x00
Re: text-mode gui
Luke Small said: > I don't know the best way, but I like how there are "check-boxes", from > what I recall, in lynx webpages. OpenBSD installer solves the checkbox problem by asking questions with default answer printed in square brackets. > If there are other things, then it may become a little less tedious > for less experienced folks to look at all the options at once, rather > than having to start over. You may want to change your keyboard layout after partitioning disk? Or maybe ability to autostart xdm convinces you that adding non-root user was not a good idea? What exactly are the cases when you needed to start over? > If there are any irreconcilable differences in options, JavaScript can > more easily display that the other changes are incompatible by > changing the other options back. Lynx doesn't support JavaScript. And even if it did, it is not a part of OpenBSD any more. But even if it was, automatic resetting user-configured options to defaults would turn installer into a whack-a-mole game. Not an improvement. FWIW the only incompatible options in installer right now are using whole disk and using dedicated partition, and the choice doesn't require JavaScript. See, in OpenBSD we try to make our "solutions" adequate to problems we are solving. Curses-based interface would do better job of the installer you describe, but even that is an overkill, as simple line-oriented interface is sufficient for the job. I would argue that curses-based interfaces tend to require more user interaction then our installer. > Things like not having softdep mounted file systems by default really > tripped me up for a couple versions. I have virtualbox HDs and I had > to keep backups in case Windows did something funny, because I > sometimes couldn't repair the file systems. It seems like something > that should be an option in the installer, or a default. It would be > nice to do that with noatime and maybe an optional mfs or tmpfs > mounted /tmp folder like I have now. So your issue with installer is not about forms and checkboxes, but rather about the set of options you want to tune. As you may know, there is quite a lot of settings that you may tune in OpenBSD; we put considerable effort into making sane defaults, but user's needs may differ from common scenarios. As you may also know, users' needs may be very different, so the range of potential installer questions is huge. If user needs something we don't do by default, we assume that he got himself familiar with his problem and can solve it after installation is complete. This way we make the installation process really fast for those who don't need to tune anything, and allow users to make detailed configuration when needed, without limiting them to question-answer interface of installer. Switching installer to curses-based interface, or even to lynx+cookies scheme you suggested won't affect the choice of installation options, because the principle of installer's operation - questions and answers - won't be altered. -- Dmitrij D. Czarkoff
Re: text-mode gui
On Sun, 20 Dec 2015 14:03:18 -0600 Luke Small wrote: > I don't know the best way, but I like how there are "check-boxes", from > what I recall, in lynx webpages. And? Bookmarks or... direct private cumulus clouds of edible sugar, preferably in cyanide algae nuances with self attaching axons. > Maybe full-disk encryption and maybe home > folder encryption if it is available are the only remaining installer It's called a directory, which is a file, and not a drawer, and not a folder, neither a closet, nor a wardrobe nor even a chest. > options that you don't have to have prior specialized knowledge to perform, > that you can't do after you boot into the system. I'm sorry to break up the bubble for you but prior knowledge is a prerequisite and this is not exclusive to OpenBSD. Anything you can do in the installer can also be done after installation, except probably finding a list of nice check boxes in a JavaScript web page. For that you need to use www. > If there are other > things, then it may become a little less tedious for less experienced folks > to look at all the options at once, rather than having to start over. Many inexperienced folds tried OpenBSD first and did not have to become experienced in other complicated installers. Can you elaborate on this? You want a long check list, is that it? > If > there are any irreconcilable differences in options, JavaScript can more > easily display that the other changes are incompatible by changing the > other options back. The editor said: scratch this part, messy wording. > But maybe the OpenBSD way is about no surprises, but it > doesn't seem right to only be able to boot into the system in the way you > want, It is a cargo "principle of least astonishment" to be found in another set of online docs elsewhere, unrelated perhaps, no? > if you have the mindset of a Computer Scientist like us, and read the > right configuration webpages. Correction, man pages. They are in English, comprehensive to lower intermediate level readers. > Things like not having softdep mounted file > systems by default really tripped me up for a couple versions. There is a clear section on this in the Frequently Asked Questions. It is a very nice idea to read these prior or during installation on the other computer, or why not print out sections you best liked or thought useful for the upcoming installation process. > I have > virtualbox HDs and I had to keep backups in case Windows did something > funny, because I sometimes couldn't repair the file systems. Can you point where the docs say "install in a virtualbox" or any other virtual software brand for what it matters? > It seems like > something that should be an option in the installer, or a default. It would > be nice to do that with noatime and maybe an optional mfs or tmpfs mounted > /tmp folder like I have now. So you're basically proposing to rewrite the installer in JavaScript to add the noatime and softdep mount options, add full disk and home directory encryption, use the SSL tool kit and also make it like a text menu installer with a lot of check boxes and... web based interface, and be able to install in a virtual machine with memory based file systems? Why don't you just pick the install media of the operating system that offers you these nice goodies, and save yourself the rewrite. Oh, and then come back teach how to do it. If this seems too much to ask, just simply use the installer in OpenBSD as it is, and after a couple of iterations, and some (minutes/years) of enlightenment, you will start to appreciate the time and effort is has saved you and the powerful options provided without constraints. What you're suggesting is more limiting than you thought originally. I'm sorry to have wasted your time reading this, Luke.
Re: text-mode gui
I can do that. All I have to do is read in the file to a buffer until it gets to a section separated by a space and includes commas and writing a new buffer with ",softdep added to it. Easy Peasy! -Luke On Sun, Dec 20, 2015 at 5:48 PM, Mike Burns wrote: > On 2015-12-20 17.25.14 -0600, Luke Small wrote: > >It would be very easy to write a C > >program to parse and edit fstab to make all the partitions softdep. > > Can we see your patch?
Re: text-mode gui
On 2015-12-20 17.25.14 -0600, Luke Small wrote: >It would be very easy to write a C >program to parse and edit fstab to make all the partitions softdep. Can we see your patch?
Re: text-mode gui
1. Maybe it doesn't have to be done in JavaScript; even partially, like part of the installer is running fdisk. It would be very easy to write a C program to parse and edit fstab to make all the partitions softdep. I wouldn't know how to automate a disklabel call in the way that https://www.vultr.com/docs/setup-openbsd-5-6-with-full-disk-encryption performs it. I'm sure im beating a dead horse trying to mention JavaScript, i only mention it because i suspect it would be the smallest footprint for a gui on install media, which can be easily be powered by software that used to be part of the base(lynx). Just because there may be a GUI, doesn't mean that it couldn't or wouldn't be written to a file to be parsed by another program to enable autoinstall capabilities more easily. I have no clue as to why softdep isn't default, but it shouldn't have to be a tough-love learning experience making your system and files go down in flames that would likely scare away a typical user. It happened to me when my home folder became unrecoverable! It can remain the default, but a normal user shouldn't have to wade through man pages to discover how to fix the problem, when it can merely be an install option. -Luke On Sun, Dec 20, 2015 at 3:33 PM, wrote: > On Sun, 20 Dec 2015 14:03:18 -0600 Luke Small > wrote: > > > I don't know the best way, but I like how there are "check-boxes", from > > what I recall, in lynx webpages. > > And? Bookmarks or... direct private cumulus clouds of edible sugar, > preferably in cyanide algae nuances with self attaching axons. > > > Maybe full-disk encryption and maybe home > > folder encryption if it is available are the only remaining installer > > It's called a directory, which is a file, and not a drawer, and not a > folder, neither a closet, nor a wardrobe nor even a chest. > > > options that you don't have to have prior specialized knowledge to > perform, > > that you can't do after you boot into the system. > > I'm sorry to break up the bubble for you but prior knowledge is a > prerequisite and this is not exclusive to OpenBSD. Anything you can do > in the installer can also be done after installation, except probably > finding a list of nice check boxes in a JavaScript web page. For that > you need to use www. > > > If there are other > > things, then it may become a little less tedious for less experienced > folks > > to look at all the options at once, rather than having to start over. > > Many inexperienced folds tried OpenBSD first and did not have to become > experienced in other complicated installers. Can you elaborate on > this? You want a long check list, is that it? > > > If > > there are any irreconcilable differences in options, JavaScript can more > > easily display that the other changes are incompatible by changing the > > other options back. > > The editor said: scratch this part, messy wording. > > > But maybe the OpenBSD way is about no surprises, but it > > doesn't seem right to only be able to boot into the system in the way you > > want, > > It is a cargo "principle of least astonishment" to be found in another > set of online docs elsewhere, unrelated perhaps, no? > > > if you have the mindset of a Computer Scientist like us, and read the > > right configuration webpages. > > Correction, man pages. They are in English, comprehensive to lower > intermediate level readers. > > > Things like not having softdep mounted file > > systems by default really tripped me up for a couple versions. > > There is a clear section on this in the Frequently Asked Questions. It > is a very nice idea to read these prior or during installation on the > other computer, or why not print out sections you best liked or thought > useful for the upcoming installation process. > > > I have > > virtualbox HDs and I had to keep backups in case Windows did something > > funny, because I sometimes couldn't repair the file systems. > > Can you point where the docs say "install in a virtualbox" or any other > virtual software brand for what it matters? > > > It seems like > > something that should be an option in the installer, or a default. It > would > > be nice to do that with noatime and maybe an optional mfs or tmpfs > mounted > > /tmp folder like I have now. > > So you're basically proposing to rewrite the installer in JavaScript to > add the noatime and softdep mount options, add full disk and home > directory encryption, use the SSL tool kit and also make it like a text > menu installer with a lot of check boxes and... web based interface, > and be able to install in a virtual machine with memory based file > systems? > > Why don't you just pick the install media of the operating system that > offers you these nice goodies, and save yourself the rewrite. Oh, and > then come back teach how to do it. > > If this seems too much to ask, just simply use the installer in OpenBSD > as it is, and after a couple of iterations, and some
Re: HUAWEI dongle
>>Please send dmesg and the output of: > >>usbdevs -dv > >>Both while the Huawei dongle is plugged into your machine, of >> course... > > > Would love to be able to do that. Anybody had any success mounting an > OpenBSD > file system in linux? > > > 0x00 > > Use a USB stick, create a new FAT32 filesystem using newfs_msdos under OpenBSD, copy your dmesg and the output of the other commands there and plug it in at your $PENGUIN box ... worked for me some months ago with Ubuntu. If the steps are required let me know.
Re: text-mode gui
> Usability means then it should be not only humans but also programs > who are able to interact with the installer. So, since stream editors > know nothing about this seasons' (or Luddite's) line drawing symbols, > and users barely see the information between these on another terminal > capability controlled device, just and only: A DSL. > ask: What is your hostname? > type: text > store: name > ask: What is your quest? > choices: 1="To seek the Holy Grail" 2="umm" > store: quest > ask: Would you like to change the default partition layout? > choose: yes-no > if-yes: !disklabel -E $disk A DSL is easy to both read and write, for both machines and humans. It can provide escape hatches to "real" languages when such need arises. It decouples the model from the presentation, so that a more trendy frontend can be swapped in later with minimal effort. Of course none of that is necessary when a tool "just does" the job. We don't need xterm, or a framebuffer console either for that matter - the teletype works just fine. (Not in favor of graphical or "curses" installers BTW) K.
Re: HUAWEI dongle
>Please send dmesg and the output of: >usbdevs -dv >Both while the Huawei dongle is plugged into your machine, of course... Would love to be able to do that. Anybody had any success mounting an OpenBSD file system in linux? 0x00
Re: text-mode gui
> I don't know the best way, but I like how there are "check-boxes", > from what I recall, in lynx webpages. Means in short, you like lynx. There was a long discussion at misc@ why lynx was removed from the base system. See http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&r=1&w=2 to search for it. > Maybe full-disk encryption and maybe home folder encryption if it > is available are the only remaining installer options that you > don't have to have prior specialized knowledge to perform, that you > can't do after you boot into the system. Not all people want / need full disc encryption. It is no problem to configure it during installation using a shell. If full disc encryption is provided by default, how you like to handle the point if users came with the question ... can you help, I forgot my passphrase / lost my keydisc ? Counter question, what is the benefit to encrypt the home folder and the rest of the system not (see also discussions about security, pysical access to a machine and also about JavaScript) ? > But maybe the OpenBSD way is about no surprises, but it doesn't seem > right to only be able to boot into the system in the way you > want, if you have the mindset of a Computer Scientist like us, and > read the right configuration webpages. OpenBSD don't wants to be like other operating systems and, it provides the freedom to do everything you like / need / want. > Things like not having softdep mounted file systems by default > really tripped me up for a couple versions. I think, that is the same discussion as full disc encryption - do really all poeple need / want it ? There is many documentation out there like for example for full disc encryption : http://www.bsdnow.tv/tutorials/fde or books like : http://www.openbsd.org/books.html and, I think noone will bite you if you ask.
/pub/OpenBSD/5.{7|8}/tools/ntrw.* not present as documented
Both http://www.openbsd.org/ftp.html#layout and http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq4.html#MkFlop announce the presence of /pub/OpenBSD/5.8/tools on the mirrors (and the presence of ntrw therein), yet on at least: * http://mirror.internode.on.net/pub/OpenBSD/5.8/ * http://artfiles.org/openbsd/5.8/ * http://ftp.openbsd.org/pub/OpenBSD/5.8/ * ftp://mirror.rise.ph/pub/OpenBSD/5.8/ (and probably others), no such subfolder exists. There is a /pub/OpenBSD/tools/, but this does not contain ntrw. The same goes for 5.7/. (Misc@ archive searches for tools & ntrw were unsuccessful.) As for 5.6/, at least on http://artfiles.org/openbsd/5.6/ (and probably others), tools/ does exist and does contain ntrw. Not sure if this is a FAQ problem or a download server/mirror problem. Btw., ftp://ftp.bit.nl/pub/OpenBSD/ currently returns "501 PASV: Operation not permitted". regards, âropers
Re: text-mode gui
On Sun, Dec 20, 2015 at 04:29:37PM +0200, li...@wrant.com wrote: > On Sun, 20 Dec 2015 10:51:20 + Tati Chevron > wrote: > > > On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 05:34:59PM -0600, Luke Small > > wrote: > > > > > >If installer GUIs are bad, maybe features like full-disk encryption > > >could be accomplished via lynx-like text -based HTML and/or > > >JavaScript that could write to cookies that the installer could > > >parse into commands? > > > > There are much better ways to implement text-based menu systems than > > using... > > Mentioning menu systems is an incorrect idea too, read bellow. > > First, what is this mythical "text-mode gui"? A text mode garbled user > interface, a new oxymoron of textual and graphical interfaces in the > same definition, or another gaseous non oxygen based substance? > > Probably, global usability inheritance, right? > > Usability means then it should be not only humans but also programs > who are able to interact with the installer. So, since stream editors > know nothing about this seasons' (or Luddite's) line drawing symbols, > and users barely see the information between these on another terminal > capability controlled device, just and only: > > plain line oriented interface works > > Meaning, this has been one unnecessary (if not totally ridiculous) > suggestion to begin with, followed by another one such "gold" nugget. > > Current installer is the gold standard in usability and the addition of > automatic installation & upgrade capabilities proved that already. > > http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/man.cgi/OpenBSD-current/man8/autoinstall.8 > > Totally agree :)
Re: text-mode gui
On Sun, 20 Dec 2015 14:58:27 + Tati Chevron wrote: > On Sun, Dec 20, 2015 at 04:29:37PM +0200, li...@wrant.com wrote: > >On Sun, 20 Dec 2015 10:51:20 + Tati Chevron > >wrote: > > > >> On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 05:34:59PM -0600, Luke Small > >> wrote: > >> > > >> >If installer GUIs are bad, maybe features like full-disk encryption > >> >could be accomplished via lynx-like text -based HTML and/or > >> >JavaScript that could write to cookies that the installer could > >> >parse into commands? > >> > >> There are much better ways to implement text-based menu systems than > >> using... > > > >Mentioning menu systems is an incorrect idea too, read bellow. > > My point was that if the OP actually has an interest in creating a > text based menu system, Looks like trying to expand further on a wrong idea does not make it right. Why do you keep mentioning this automation incompatible suggestion?
Re: WTMP Question
On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 3:31 PM, Duncan Patton a Campbell wrote: > I've a question about last/utmp/wtmp that someone here should be able to > answer. > > At the shell I do > > # date > Sat Dec 19 16:29:07 MST 2015 > # last > > wtmp begins Sat Dec 19 16:29 2015 > > This appears to set the beginning time to "now" > every time I run the thing. WTF sets the > lower bound so as to see back from "now"? > > It is not exactly obvious from the man pages how this works. > I'm sure it's there, I just can't find it. Well, you apparently know that the data comes from /var/log/wtmp, so what's the status of that file? It should be a normal file of non-zero length. If it's a symlink to /dev/null or something bogus then you need to figure out why and maybe reinstall from scratch. Also, you failed to include the dmesg or even mention what version you're running, so maybe we should just go with "you're clearly running an out of date version and probably screwed up an upgrade across the time_t size change"... Philip Guenther
Re: dotted lines flashing on the virtual terminal
On Sat, 19 Dec 2015 18:04:08 + "Read, James C" wrote: > Never seen this one before. Just done a clean base install of 5.8 > Got white lines of "dashes" flashing across my screen at urandom places. > Is this some kind of buffering problem? Probably video memory corruption or some similar problem. If replace with a working board is now an option, does it happen all the time, or when the machine is cold / hot / at boot up? How old is your video card? What make/model, show some dmesg / pcidump / lspci etc to make help possible.
Re: Can't build kernel GENERIC.MP on Dell Inspiron E1045
> Is there any benefit to install -current on this antique? Yes.
Re: text-mode gui
On Sun, 20 Dec 2015 10:51:20 + Tati Chevron wrote: > On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 05:34:59PM -0600, Luke Small > wrote: > > > >If installer GUIs are bad, maybe features like full-disk encryption > >could be accomplished via lynx-like text -based HTML and/or > >JavaScript that could write to cookies that the installer could > >parse into commands? > > There are much better ways to implement text-based menu systems than > using... Mentioning menu systems is an incorrect idea too, read bellow. First, what is this mythical "text-mode gui"? A text mode garbled user interface, a new oxymoron of textual and graphical interfaces in the same definition, or another gaseous non oxygen based substance? Probably, global usability inheritance, right? Usability means then it should be not only humans but also programs who are able to interact with the installer. So, since stream editors know nothing about this seasons' (or Luddite's) line drawing symbols, and users barely see the information between these on another terminal capability controlled device, just and only: plain line oriented interface works Meaning, this has been one unnecessary (if not totally ridiculous) suggestion to begin with, followed by another one such "gold" nugget. Current installer is the gold standard in usability and the addition of automatic installation & upgrade capabilities proved that already. http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/man.cgi/OpenBSD-current/man8/autoinstall.8
Re: text-mode gui
I don't know the best way, but I like how there are "check-boxes", from what I recall, in lynx webpages. Maybe full-disk encryption and maybe home folder encryption if it is available are the only remaining installer options that you don't have to have prior specialized knowledge to perform, that you can't do after you boot into the system. If there are other things, then it may become a little less tedious for less experienced folks to look at all the options at once, rather than having to start over. If there are any irreconcilable differences in options, JavaScript can more easily display that the other changes are incompatible by changing the other options back. But maybe the OpenBSD way is about no surprises, but it doesn't seem right to only be able to boot into the system in the way you want, if you have the mindset of a Computer Scientist like us, and read the right configuration webpages. Things like not having softdep mounted file systems by default really tripped me up for a couple versions. I have virtualbox HDs and I had to keep backups in case Windows did something funny, because I sometimes couldn't repair the file systems. It seems like something that should be an option in the installer, or a default. It would be nice to do that with noatime and maybe an optional mfs or tmpfs mounted /tmp folder like I have now. -Luke On Sun, Dec 20, 2015 at 8:58 AM, Tati Chevron wrote: > On Sun, Dec 20, 2015 at 04:29:37PM +0200, li...@wrant.com wrote: > >> On Sun, 20 Dec 2015 10:51:20 + Tati Chevron >> wrote: >> >> On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 05:34:59PM -0600, Luke Small >>> wrote: >>> > >>> >If installer GUIs are bad, maybe features like full-disk encryption >>> >could be accomplished via lynx-like text -based HTML and/or >>> >JavaScript that could write to cookies that the installer could >>> >parse into commands? >>> >>> There are much better ways to implement text-based menu systems than >>> using... >>> >> >> Mentioning menu systems is an incorrect idea too, read bellow. >> > > My point was that if the OP actually has an interest in creating a > text based menu system, (which might be an interesting programming > project for somebody new to a UNIX like system), then basing it on > lynx, html, and javascript is completely not the traditional UNIX > like way of thinking. > > The current installer is almost perfect as it is. My biggest gripe is > that the openssl command line tool isn't included on the ramdisk. I > certainly have no interest in a menu system for it. > > > -- > Tati Chevron > Perl and FORTRAN specialist. > SWABSIT development and migration department. > http://www.swabsit.com
Re: FAQ 3.3 - suggested copyright clarification diff
On Sun, Dec 20, 2015 at 06:24:26PM +0100, ropers wrote: Rationale: It is a still surprisingly common misunderstanding that permissively licensed software wasn't copyrighted. Regardless of license choice (BSD, MIT, ISC, GPL, MS-EULA, etc.), software that is not in the public domain remains protected by copyright. Thus the claim that *only* the CD layout was copyrighted is factually incorrect. However, OpenBSD, though copyrighted, is freely (or permissively) licensed -- and therefore not substantially *restricted* by its copyright. You are right that the original wording is technically incorrect, (although most people familiar with permissive software licenses would probably understand the intended message). What is also unclear, (at least to me), is what exactly, 'the CD layout', means. Obviously, a sector by sector copy of any of the offical discs from the 3-CD set would duplicate, 'the CD layout'. But if I want to make my own bootable Blu-ray disc, for a single architecture, using the files on the discs I purchased, is it necessary, for example, to master it with the distribution files in a different location other than /5.8/amd64 , in order to make 'the CD layout' different? Or is the fact that it's on a different type of optical media sufficient? Where is the line drawn? -- Tati Chevron Perl and FORTRAN specialist. SWABSIT development and migration department. http://www.swabsit.com
Re: Can't build kernel GENERIC.MP on Dell Inspiron E1045
li...@wrant.com wrote: Is there any benefit to install -current on this antique? Yes. I did so and sent report to dmesg@ -- Jack J. Woehr # Science is more than a body of knowledge. It's a way of www.well.com/~jax # thinking, a way of skeptically interrogating the universe www.softwoehr.com # with a fine understanding of human fallibility. - Carl Sagan
FAQ 3.3 - suggested copyright clarification diff
For http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq3.html : --- faq3.html.orig2015-12-20 17:13:16.688175000 +0100 +++ faq3.html2015-12-20 17:16:37.529726012 +0100 @@ -103,7 +103,7 @@ official OpenBSD CDs. As an incentive for people to buy the CD set, some extras are included in the package as well (artwork, stickers etc). -Note that only the CD layout is copyrighted, OpenBSD itself is free. +Note that only the CD layout is copyright-restricted, OpenBSD itself is freely licensed. Nothing precludes someone else from downloading OpenBSD and making their own CD. Rationale: It is a still surprisingly common misunderstanding that permissively licensed software wasn't copyrighted. Regardless of license choice (BSD, MIT, ISC, GPL, MS-EULA, etc.), software that is not in the public domain remains protected by copyright. Thus the claim that *only* the CD layout was copyrighted is factually incorrect. However, OpenBSD, though copyrighted, is freely (or permissively) licensed -- and therefore not substantially *restricted* by its copyright. Alternatively, this belt-and-suspenders diff might be even clearer, albeit wordier: --- faq3.html.orig2015-12-20 17:13:16.688175000 +0100 +++ faq3.html2015-12-20 18:19:07.288248875 +0100 @@ -103,9 +103,9 @@ official OpenBSD CDs. As an incentive for people to buy the CD set, some extras are included in the package as well (artwork, stickers etc). -Note that only the CD layout is copyrighted, OpenBSD itself is free. +Note that only the copyrighted CD layout is commercially restricted; the copyrighted OpenBSD software itself is permissively licensed and thus freely redistributable. Nothing precludes someone else from downloading OpenBSD and making their -own CD. +own CDs for themselves (though not for unlicensed distribution if significantly similar or identical to an official set). OpenBSD's licensing does allow you redistribute the software, so long as you do not infringe upon the CD layout copyright. Verifying and ensuring non-infringement in such a case might be another good reason to purchase a CD set. Those that need or want a bootable USB drive can use the
Re: text-mode gui
On Sun, Dec 20, 2015 at 04:29:37PM +0200, li...@wrant.com wrote: On Sun, 20 Dec 2015 10:51:20 + Tati Chevron wrote: On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 05:34:59PM -0600, Luke Small wrote: > >If installer GUIs are bad, maybe features like full-disk encryption >could be accomplished via lynx-like text -based HTML and/or >JavaScript that could write to cookies that the installer could >parse into commands? There are much better ways to implement text-based menu systems than using... Mentioning menu systems is an incorrect idea too, read bellow. My point was that if the OP actually has an interest in creating a text based menu system, (which might be an interesting programming project for somebody new to a UNIX like system), then basing it on lynx, html, and javascript is completely not the traditional UNIX like way of thinking. The current installer is almost perfect as it is. My biggest gripe is that the openssl command line tool isn't included on the ramdisk. I certainly have no interest in a menu system for it. -- Tati Chevron Perl and FORTRAN specialist. SWABSIT development and migration department. http://www.swabsit.com
Re: Huawei Mobile E353 and umsm
On Sun, Dec 20, 2015 at 01:13:10PM +, Stuart Henderson wrote: On 2015-12-19, Read, James C wrote: Hi, my device Huawei Mobile E353 is listed as known to be supported in the umsm man 4 page http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/man.cgi/OpenBSD-current/man4/umsm.4?query=umsm &sec=4 Does anybody know what the steps are to get a umsm supported device up and running. We are talking basics here. I really don't know where to start. What should I be looking at? PPP? If it's in a mode which attaches as umsm, yes you need to look at ppp(4) and pppd(8), there are also some examples in umsm(4)'s own manual. I don't know this particular device, but in general these devices have several modes - the modem-like mode used by umsm, and a mode that presents as an ethernet interface (cdce or urndis), if it's in that mode then it would show in ifconfig and you would just use dhclient. It looks like you can switch modes on/off on a Huawei with an AT^U2DIAG=(something) command on the serial port (takes effect after replugging the device) but there doesn't seem to be much good documentation of the values to use. From ethernet mode it looks like the Huawei dongles have an internal web page that allows switching back to 'modem' mode. The values for AT^U2DIAG and the other configuration commands are not completely standardised between different Huawei devices, and each device tends to implement a subset of the full functionality available. As such any guides to using and re-configuring them via AT commands that you may find, will not necessarily be applicable to the device you have to hand. I used several of these dongles over a number of years between 5.0-release and about 5.5, when the last hardware I had failed. The older ones did not have the ethernet interface, that was introduced with what Huawei call, 'hi-link', which was advertised as the device being capable of bringing up the link quickly. Infact, the difference is that the older devices were, 'dumb', and needed the host to use ppp to bring up and maintain the connection, (which gave much more flexibility and allowed the easy sending of SMS as well). The first generation of, 'hi-link', devices were a nightmare, at least for me, I never got them working on the current OpenBSD at that time. The more recent ones seem to be better. If you look in the kernel source, you will see that there are all sorts of work-arounds to accomodate the strange things that these devices do on their initial USB connection. Since the OP has used the device on other operating systems, other than Windows which it is intended for, various configuration changes may already have been issued to it, especially if he has been following various guides and trying out commands at random. As such, even if the device IS supported natively by OpenBSD, it may not be recognised as such, because the changes to it's internal configuration are causing it to present itself as a completely different device, (seen this several times before). Of course, a full dmesg, instead of selected extracts would help. -- Tati Chevron Perl and FORTRAN specialist. SWABSIT development and migration department. http://www.swabsit.com
Re: Huawei Mobile E353 and umsm
On 2015-12-19, Read, James C wrote: > Hi, > > > my device Huawei Mobile E353 is listed as known to be supported in the umsm > man 4 page > http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/man.cgi/OpenBSD-current/man4/umsm.4?query=umsm > &sec=4 > > > Does anybody know what the steps are to get a umsm supported device up and > running. We are talking basics here. I really don't know where to start. What > should I be looking at? PPP? If it's in a mode which attaches as umsm, yes you need to look at ppp(4) and pppd(8), there are also some examples in umsm(4)'s own manual. I don't know this particular device, but in general these devices have several modes - the modem-like mode used by umsm, and a mode that presents as an ethernet interface (cdce or urndis), if it's in that mode then it would show in ifconfig and you would just use dhclient. It looks like you can switch modes on/off on a Huawei with an AT^U2DIAG=(something) command on the serial port (takes effect after replugging the device) but there doesn't seem to be much good documentation of the values to use. From ethernet mode it looks like the Huawei dongles have an internal web page that allows switching back to 'modem' mode.
Re: Bandwidth packet on interface from OpenSBD
On Sun, Dec 20, 2015 at 01:31:24PM +0800, Siu Man wrote:
> Hi
>
> I have more question for cat network interface packet numbers for monitor
>
> Example easy to do on linux cat /proc/net/dev
>
> root@ubuntu:/var/www/html# cat /proc/net/dev
> Inter-| Receive| Transmit
> face |bytespackets errs drop fifo frame compressed multicast|bytes
> packets errs drop fifo colls carrier compressed
> eth0: 19982 202000 0 0 038148
> 187000 0 0 0
> lo: 13132 162000 0 0 013132
> 162000 0 0 0
> root@ubuntu:/var/www/html#
>
> eth0: 19982 202000 0 0 038148
> 187000 0 0 0
>
> Read packets to SVG graph on browser
>
> But OpenBSD do not find /proc/net/dev
>
> It can read by SVG monitor
>
> $intf=$_GET['intf'];
> if(file_exists('/proc/net/dev')) {
> $data = file_get_contents('/proc/net/dev');
> $lines = explode("\n",$data);
> foreach($lines as $line){
> if(strpos($line, $intf)!==false) {
> echo strftime('%a %b %d %H:%M:%S UTC %Y')."\n";
> echo $line;
> }
> }
> }
> ?>
>
>
>
> http://10.0.0.100/getbw.php?intf=eth0
>
> Sun Dec 20 13:21:46 UTC 2015 eth0: 23630 243 0 0 0 0 0 0 54734 211 0 0 0 0 0
> 0
>
>
>
>
> how to do OpenBSD ?
>
> [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/png which had a name of
> svg.PNG]
>
netstat -w 1 -c 1
Add -b for bytes instead of packets
--
Re: Bandwidth packet on interface from OpenSBD
On Sun, Dec 20, 2015 at 01:31:24PM +0800, Siu Man wrote: I have more question for cat network interface packet numbers for monitor Example easy to do on linux cat /proc/net/dev how to do OpenBSD ? Maybe you want to look at, for example: # netstat -I eth0 # netstat -W eth0 (for wireless interfaces). -- Tati Chevron Perl and FORTRAN specialist. SWABSIT development and migration department. http://www.swabsit.com
Bandwidth packet on interface from OpenSBD
Hi I have more question for cat network interface packet numbers for monitor Example easy to do on linux cat /proc/net/dev root@ubuntu:/var/www/html# cat /proc/net/dev Inter-| Receive| Transmit face |bytespackets errs drop fifo frame compressed multicast|bytes packets errs drop fifo colls carrier compressed eth0: 19982 202000 0 0 038148 187000 0 0 0 lo: 13132 162000 0 0 013132 162000 0 0 0 root@ubuntu:/var/www/html# eth0: 19982 202000 0 0 038148 187000 0 0 0 Read packets to SVG graph on browser But OpenBSD do not find /proc/net/dev It can read by SVG monitor http://10.0.0.100/getbw.php?intf=eth0 Sun Dec 20 13:21:46 UTC 2015 eth0: 23630 243 0 0 0 0 0 0 54734 211 0 0 0 0 0 0 how to do OpenBSD ? [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/png which had a name of svg.PNG]
Re: text-mode gui
On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 05:34:59PM -0600, Luke Small wrote: If installer GUIs are bad, maybe features like full-disk encryption could be accomplished via lynx-like text -based HTML and/or JavaScript that could write to cookies that the installer could parse into commands? There are much better ways to implement text-based menu systems than using HTML and JavaScript. Infact, it's difficult to think of a worse way of doing it. -- Tati Chevron Perl and FORTRAN specialist. SWABSIT development and migration department. http://www.swabsit.com
Re: HUAWEI dongle
On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 10:30:12PM +, Read, James C wrote: You've said that it connects as ugen, and also as umsm. Often the older dongles provided >several serial interfaces, only one of which actually worked. Again, nobody will be able to help >you without the log messages. my dmesg gives: You need to post the full dmesg, preferably boot with the dongle disconnected, then connect it, and send the resulting output. These devices usually provide several interfaces, umsm0 is just one of them. Without this information, it's almost impossible to offer any further advice. The packaging says the device is E3533 HSPA+ USB Stick That's one of the more modern ones. It has what Huaweii call, 'hi-link', which basically means it handles the cellular connection itself and presents as a network interface. If it's connecting as a serial port and/or mass storage device, it needs something done, (eject, AT command), to make it present itself as a network interface, (which will be an urndis device). I was using Huaweii dongles and other such devices with OpenBSD at least as far back as 5.0-release and they seem to have a lot of strange oddities. But they can often be made to work. -- Tati Chevron Perl and FORTRAN specialist. SWABSIT development and migration department. http://www.swabsit.com
