Re: help with understanding __BSD_VISIBLE

[Theo de Raadt]

>Philip Guenther  writes:
>
>> There are four options here:
>> 1) change the software to not use the name 'bcrypt' for a non-static
>> function.  OpenBSD has only been using it for 15 years...
>
>Agree, but for now I'm trying to keep changes to a minimum as I work out
>larger issues. This is in an erlang wrapper for bcrypt. It includes its
>own copy of bcrypt.c
>
>The change that diverges from the OpenBSD version is in this commit, in
>case anyone is interested.
>
>https://github.com/smarkets/erlang-bcrypt/commit/1277ee41bba86d47e039e3f24a47a491efe48d78

Whoever did that should have renamed it.  There really is no excuse.
I look forward to the amusing consequences in the future.

Re: OpenBSD Project

[Ingo Schwarze]

Hi Theo,

Theo de Raadt wrote on Sun, Jul 21, 2019 at 02:00:20PM -0600:

> Nice rant.  Now get back to work.  :)

As you wish, Your Grace.  =;c)
  Ingo


Log Message:
---
Slowly start implementing tagging support for man(7) pages, even 
though it is obvious that this can never become as good as for
mdoc(7) pages.  As a first step, tag alphabetic arguments of .IP
macros, which are often used for lists of options and keywords.

Try "man -O tag=g as" to get the point.

Thanks to Leah Neukirchen for recently reminding me that exploring
how much can be done in this respect may be worthwhile: it is likely
to slightly improve usability while adding only small amounts of
relatively straightforward code.

Modified Files:
--
mandoc:
Makefile.depend
man_term.c
tag.c

Revision Data
-
Index: tag.c
===
RCS file: /home/cvs/mandoc/mandoc/tag.c,v
retrieving revision 1.23
retrieving revision 1.24
diff -Ltag.c -Ltag.c -u -p -r1.23 -r1.24
--- tag.c
+++ tag.c
@@ -151,11 +151,11 @@ tag_put(const char *s, int prio, size_t 
s += 2;
 
/*
-* Skip whitespace and whatever follows it,
+* Skip whitespace and escapes and whatever follows,
 * and if there is any, downgrade the priority.
 */
 
-   len = strcspn(s, " \t");
+   len = strcspn(s, " \t\\");
if (len == 0)
return;
 
Index: Makefile.depend
===
RCS file: /home/cvs/mandoc/mandoc/Makefile.depend,v
retrieving revision 1.44
retrieving revision 1.45
diff -LMakefile.depend -LMakefile.depend -u -p -r1.44 -r1.45
--- Makefile.depend
+++ Makefile.depend
@@ -37,7 +37,7 @@ main.o: main.c config.h mandoc_aux.h man
 man.o: man.c config.h mandoc_aux.h mandoc.h roff.h man.h libmandoc.h 
roff_int.h libman.h
 man_html.o: man_html.c config.h mandoc_aux.h mandoc.h roff.h man.h out.h 
html.h main.h
 man_macro.o: man_macro.c config.h mandoc.h roff.h man.h libmandoc.h roff_int.h 
libman.h
-man_term.o: man_term.c config.h mandoc_aux.h roff.h man.h out.h term.h main.h
+man_term.o: man_term.c config.h mandoc_aux.h mandoc.h roff.h man.h out.h 
term.h tag.h main.h
 man_validate.o: man_validate.c config.h mandoc_aux.h mandoc.h roff.h man.h 
libmandoc.h roff_int.h libman.h
 mandoc.o: mandoc.c config.h mandoc_aux.h mandoc.h roff.h libmandoc.h roff_int.h
 mandoc_aux.o: mandoc_aux.c config.h mandoc.h mandoc_aux.h
Index: man_term.c
===
RCS file: /home/cvs/mandoc/mandoc/man_term.c,v
retrieving revision 1.230
retrieving revision 1.231
diff -Lman_term.c -Lman_term.c -u -p -r1.230 -r1.231
--- man_term.c
+++ man_term.c
@@ -27,10 +27,12 @@
 #include 
 
 #include "mandoc_aux.h"
+#include "mandoc.h"
 #include "roff.h"
 #include "man.h"
 #include "out.h"
 #include "term.h"
+#include "tag.h"
 #include "main.h"
 
 #defineMAXMARGINS64 /* maximum number of indented scopes */
@@ -92,6 +94,8 @@ staticvoid  post_SY(DECL_ARGS);
 static void  post_TP(DECL_ARGS);
 static void  post_UR(DECL_ARGS);
 
+static void  tag_man(struct termp *, struct roff_node *);
+
 static const struct man_term_act man_term_acts[MAN_MAX - MAN_TH] = {
{ NULL, NULL, 0 }, /* TH */
{ pre_SH, post_SH, 0 }, /* SH */
@@ -534,8 +538,10 @@ pre_IP(DECL_ARGS)
case ROFFT_HEAD:
p->tcol->offset = mt->offset;
p->tcol->rmargin = mt->offset + len;
-   if (n->child != NULL)
+   if (n->child != NULL) {
print_man_node(p, mt, n->child, meta);
+   tag_man(p, n->child);
+   }
return 0;
case ROFFT_BODY:
p->tcol->offset = mt->offset + len;
@@ -1147,4 +1153,61 @@ print_man_head(struct termp *p, const st
term_vspace(p);
}
free(title);
+}
+
+/*
+ * Skip leading whitespace, dashes, backslashes, and font escapes,
+ * then create a tag if the first following byte is a letter.
+ * Priority is high unless whitespace is present.
+ */
+static void
+tag_man(struct termp *p, struct roff_node *n)
+{
+   const char  *cp, *arg;
+   int  prio, sz;
+
+   assert(n->type == ROFFT_TEXT);
+   cp = n->string;
+   prio = 1;
+   for (;;) {
+   switch (*cp) {
+   case ' ':
+   case '\t':
+   prio = INT_MAX;
+   /* FALLTHROUGH */
+   case '-':
+   cp++;
+   break;
+   case '\\':
+   cp++;
+   switch (mandoc_escape(, , )) {
+   case ESCAPE_FONT:
+   case ESCAPE_FONTROMAN:
+   case ESCAPE_FONTITALIC:
+   

Re: OpenBSD Project

[Edgar Pettijohn]

In OpenBSD fashion.

--- email.orig  Sun Jul 21 19:12:04 2019
+++ email.new   Sun Jul 21 19:12:38 2019
@@ -7,7 +7,7 @@
 Perhaps the reason it has worked so long is because we don't have a
 sentence like this, which some may consider contentious, and use as
 reason to pick yet another infamous fight where they believe they know
-better than a quarter decade old project?
+better than a quarter century old project?
 
 It is pretty easy to see why people might misunderstand our approach
 of just getting shit done.  When I could not pay for electricity


Thanks for all the hard work regardless of the orginizational methods used.

Edgar

Re: OpenBSD Project

[Nathan Hartman]

On Sun, Jul 21, 2019 at 12:40 PM Theo de Raadt  wrote:

> Perhaps the reason it has worked so long is because we don't have a
> sentence like this, which some may consider contentious, and use as
> reason to pick yet another infamous fight where they believe they know
> better than a quarter decade old project?


Quarter century.

Re: OpenBSD Project

[Theo de Raadt]

>Hi Ibsen,
>
>Ibsen S Ripsbusker wrote on Sun, Jul 21, 2019 at 05:51:21PM +:
>
>> benevolent dictatorship
>
>I'm aware you did not call OpenBSD a "benevolent dictatorship",
>and i totally see how the term can be used both to shut down
>or to incite controversy.
>
>Yet, i heard the term used several times in the past in relation
>to OpenBSD, and merely wanted to mention that i think is misses the
>point.  Words of the "...cracy" field can be used for systems of
>making, adjudicating, and executing laws, laws that limit or expand
>what people can and cannot have or do, that directly impact people's
>lives.
>
>Nothing of the kind is at stake here or at the very most, the right
>of using the name "OpenBSD".
>
>OpenBSD cannot make any laws that bind me or cannot tell me what
>to do or what not to do, not even in programming, so the question
>what kind of a "...cracy" it is is already a moot question to ask.
>I'm 100% free to walk away at any time if i'm unhappy with the
>colour of the servers in Theo's basement and publish my software
>elsewhere.  That isn't just a theoretical possibility, it's quite
>easy in practice if needed; in fact, mandoc.bsd.lv is already up
>and running, and so is bsd.plumbing and other similar places - not
>because developers are unhappy with Theo providing free servers in
>his basement and fostering a very fertile development community
>around them, but simply because having your own site and name with
>global visibility is not such a big deal in this day and age.  Also,
>walking away does not necessarily even uproot you from a development
>community - i doubt that people like bapt@ at FreeBSD or wiz@ at
>NetBSD or stapelberg@ at Debian or Leah at Void greatly care whether
>or not i contribute to OpenBSD this week.
>
>So, yes, OpenBSD developers form a social group, but not in a way
>that (formally or effectively) assigns rights or duties or opportunities
>such that describing it as a "...cracy" would make much sense.
>
>People walking away and doing their work elsewhere under a new name
>happens all the time for very diverse reasons and often enough for
>good reasons: pf(4), OpenSSH, LibreSSL, heck, OpenBSD itself, and
>even NetBSD before that...  When it happens, the parent projects
>sometimes fade into oblivion - consider pf(4), OpenSSH - and sometimes
>live on - consider (so far) the parents of LibreSSL and of OpenBSD
>itself as examples.
>
>See, if you dislike the way Andorran politics is currently being
>run, you cannot simply renounce citizenship and set up your own
>state in some corner of the country.  So in some contexts, asking
>about "...cracy" is indeed highly meaningful.  For a completely
>free software project, no so much.
>
>Even in a commercial enterprise, the question of governance is more
>relevant than in OpenBSD - while in most countries, employees are
>formally free to quit, for some employees, that may be a somewhat
>theoretical option because some may have few practical chances to
>make their living in some other way.  And besides, employers *do*
>almost invariably tell employees what to work on and how, which
>isn't the case here either.
>
>Yours,
>  Ingo
>
>

Nice rant.  Now get back to work.

:)

Re: OpenBSD Project

[Ingo Schwarze]

Hi Ibsen,

Ibsen S Ripsbusker wrote on Sun, Jul 21, 2019 at 05:51:21PM +:

> benevolent dictatorship

I'm aware you did not call OpenBSD a "benevolent dictatorship",
and i totally see how the term can be used both to shut down
or to incite controversy.

Yet, i heard the term used several times in the past in relation
to OpenBSD, and merely wanted to mention that i think is misses the
point.  Words of the "...cracy" field can be used for systems of
making, adjudicating, and executing laws, laws that limit or expand
what people can and cannot have or do, that directly impact people's
lives.

Nothing of the kind is at stake here or at the very most, the right
of using the name "OpenBSD".

OpenBSD cannot make any laws that bind me or cannot tell me what
to do or what not to do, not even in programming, so the question
what kind of a "...cracy" it is is already a moot question to ask.
I'm 100% free to walk away at any time if i'm unhappy with the
colour of the servers in Theo's basement and publish my software
elsewhere.  That isn't just a theoretical possibility, it's quite
easy in practice if needed; in fact, mandoc.bsd.lv is already up
and running, and so is bsd.plumbing and other similar places - not
because developers are unhappy with Theo providing free servers in
his basement and fostering a very fertile development community
around them, but simply because having your own site and name with
global visibility is not such a big deal in this day and age.  Also,
walking away does not necessarily even uproot you from a development
community - i doubt that people like bapt@ at FreeBSD or wiz@ at
NetBSD or stapelberg@ at Debian or Leah at Void greatly care whether
or not i contribute to OpenBSD this week.

So, yes, OpenBSD developers form a social group, but not in a way
that (formally or effectively) assigns rights or duties or opportunities
such that describing it as a "...cracy" would make much sense.

People walking away and doing their work elsewhere under a new name
happens all the time for very diverse reasons and often enough for
good reasons: pf(4), OpenSSH, LibreSSL, heck, OpenBSD itself, and
even NetBSD before that...  When it happens, the parent projects
sometimes fade into oblivion - consider pf(4), OpenSSH - and sometimes
live on - consider (so far) the parents of LibreSSL and of OpenBSD
itself as examples.

See, if you dislike the way Andorran politics is currently being
run, you cannot simply renounce citizenship and set up your own
state in some corner of the country.  So in some contexts, asking
about "...cracy" is indeed highly meaningful.  For a completely
free software project, no so much.

Even in a commercial enterprise, the question of governance is more
relevant than in OpenBSD - while in most countries, employees are
formally free to quit, for some employees, that may be a somewhat
theoretical option because some may have few practical chances to
make their living in some other way.  And besides, employers *do*
almost invariably tell employees what to work on and how, which
isn't the case here either.

Yours,
  Ingo

Re: OpenBSD Project

[Frank Beuth]

On Sun, Jul 21, 2019 at 10:37:40AM -0600, Theo de Raadt wrote:

I'm mentioning this to highlight the false pattern of
believing "democracy is a required component" in a world where people
forget the most dominant models in all industries are a mix of
fascism, monarchies, or well ... plutocracy.

And what OpenBSD is doing is industry, plain and simple.


So you're saying OpenBSD is a... theocracy?

Re: OpenBSD Project

[Ibsen S Ripsbusker]

On Sun, Jul 21, 2019, at 16:41, Theo de Raadt wrote:
> I'd go with the approach of avoiding politics entirely and not even
> describing the approach we use.

I find this approach to be consistent with OpenBSD's virtuous
ignorance of fads.

 > Be as politics-free as possible; solutions should be decided on the
> > basis of technical merit.

The comment about absence of politics is also inaccurate. OpenBSD has a
specially designed political system that works very well for the
project, just not one that anyone cares to explain in standard political
language.

What's more, claiming to be free of politics is sure to elicit
complaints about how everything is political.

Sometimes I shut down conversations about governance by sharing my
opinion that benevolent dictatorship is the best form of government and
and that I prefer software that is governed this way. But people who
like to talk about government and democracy seem to get angry when I do
this, so I don't do it very often.

Re: OpenBSD Project

[Theo de Raadt]

I'd go with the approach of avoiding politics entirely and not even
describing the approach we use.

People who care about anything besides our results have make an
incorrect assessment of which kind of farm animal they are.

Perhaps the reason it has worked so long is because we don't have a
sentence like this, which some may consider contentious, and use as
reason to pick yet another infamous fight where they believe they know
better than a quarter decade old project?

It is pretty easy to see why people might misunderstand our approach
of just getting shit done.  When I could not pay for electricity
myself, even Kirk McKusick told me I stop trying and quit doing
OpenBSD.  Imagine that.  I won't go into trying to assess his
reasoning, I'm mentioning this to highlight the false pattern of
believing "democracy is a required component" in a world where people
forget the most dominant models in all industries are a mix of
fascism, monarchies, or well ... plutocracy.

And what OpenBSD is doing is industry, plain and simple.

So my gut feeling I think the additional sentence is a bad idea.

>Hi Theo,
>
>a user just asked a question on misc@ that could have been answered
>by the following addition to the web site.
>
>I'm not convinced that going into more detail makes sense,
>precisely because we do not want bylaws.
>
>OK?
>  Ingo
>
>
>Index: goals.html
>===
>RCS file: /cvs/www/goals.html,v
>retrieving revision 1.92
>diff -u -r1.92 goals.html
>--- goals.html 1 Jun 2019 23:12:47 -   1.92
>+++ goals.html 21 Jul 2019 16:16:20 -
>@@ -62,6 +62,9 @@
> 
> Be as politics-free as possible; solutions should be decided on the
> basis of technical merit.
>+To stay focussed on development, the OpenBSD project deliberately
>+refrains from having bylaws, elections, formal governance, a
>+"core" team, committees, sales and marketing, or anything similar.
> 
> Focus on being developer-oriented in all senses, including holding
> developer-only events called hackathons.
>
>

Re: OpenBSD Project

[bkfuth]

Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note® 4, an AT 4G LTE smartphone

 Original message 
From: Австин Ким  
Date: 7/21/19  10:09  (GMT-06:00) 
To: misc@openbsd.org 
Subject: Re: OpenBSD Project 

> On July 21, 2019 6:05:28 AM GMT+03:00, bkfuth <[…]> wrote:> > I have used 
> OpenBSD, for years, in my computer security classes. I find> > it best suited 
> for these classes. The governance has never been an> > issue. If you know 
> what you are doing the OpenBSD community is a good> > one.> > Stephen Kolars> 
> > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note� 4, an AT 4G LTE smartphone> > > > 
>  Original message > > From: Ingo Schwarze <[…]>> > Date: 
> 7/20/19  21:44  (GMT-06:00) > > To: freen...@gmail.com > > Cc: 
> misc@openbsd.org > > Subject: Re: OpenBSD Project > > > > Hi,Avstin Kim 
> wrote:> My question is, how is the OpenBSD Project> > governance 
> structured;There is no formal structure and no> > "governance".In day to day 
> business, code owners in parts of the system> > decidewhat is done (for 
> example, espie@ in pkg_add(1), myself in> > mandoc(1),claudio@ in OpenBGPD, 
> gilles@ in OpenSMTPd, jsing@ and beck@> > inLibreSSL, tj@ redgarding the 
> website, and so on; in some areas,more> > than one person owns the code, 
> sometimes up to a handful).In general,> > the people deciding ask themselves 
> which is the besttechnical solution,> > and if there is consensus among 
> developers, itis done.In the rare cases> > of serious disagreement that 
> cannot be resolvedconsensually, or cannot> > be resolved without excessive 
> delay ordiscussion, deraadt@ reserves the> > right to make a final 
> decision,but that does not happen often.There is> > no core team and 
> certainly, there are never any elections.There are no> > written rules 
> whatsoever, and no introduction of anywritten rules is> > planned for the 
> future.  The OpenBSD foundationhas absolutely no say> > about any aspect of 
> the OpenBSD project.None of all this is documented> > anywhere because it 
> doesn't matterfor users of the system.If your> > choice of operating system 
> depends on any kind of formalitiesrather> > than on technical quality, 
> OpenBSD is not the project youare looking> > for.Yours,  Ingo>> I can only 
> add that ,from all the mailing lists  I'm  subscribed ,  misc@openbsd is \> 
> the most active  mailing list.>> This means alot for me, and I suspect for 
> anyone else using openBSD.>> Best Regards,> Strahil NikolovTo everyone who 
> took the time to respond, your responses were outstanding; if only a short 
> and sweet additional page could be added to the main OpenBSD Project WWW site 
> (e.g., under “Project Team” or “Developers") that just succinctly summarizes 
> exactly what you all said.  For “smaller” projects without formal governance 
> I guess it all comes down to the people; I can see how if you have a 
> dedicated core of really good, passionate developers formal by-laws and 
> committees are superfluous, but then the question is how would that be 
> sustainable over the long term other than just by manually and personally 
> attracting and retaining the best on an ad hoc basis without a codified, 
> structured process.  But it seems to be clearly working here.Downloaded the 
> macppc port of OpenBSD 6.5 to install on a couple IBM PowerPC 970/970MP-based 
> Apple Power Mac G5 machines for a class project (I just need some decent, 
> reliable, no-frills servers, but I wanted to try using something other than 
> AMD64/x86-64-based machines for a change) with very low expectations (after 
> trying to install the macppc port of a peer Noteworthy Excellent 
> Tried-and-true BSD distribution which crashed immediately upon running 
> ofwboot off the install ISO), but the installer Just Worked!  I don’t 
> understand how this project is able to maintain a working legacy macppc port 
> with so few developers.All the best,Austin“If you want to change the future, 
> start living as if you’re already there.”  —Lynn ConwayI really appreciate 
> the macppc developers! In my lab I have a cluster of 5 g5s, 24 g4 laptops, 7 
> g4 towers, and 15 other ppc machines. They all run OpenBSD. Thanks to the 
> macppc developers my students can benefit from their use. Thanks!

Re: OpenBSD Project

[Ingo Schwarze]

Hi Theo,

a user just asked a question on misc@ that could have been answered
by the following addition to the web site.

I'm not convinced that going into more detail makes sense,
precisely because we do not want bylaws.

OK?
  Ingo


Index: goals.html
===
RCS file: /cvs/www/goals.html,v
retrieving revision 1.92
diff -u -r1.92 goals.html
--- goals.html  1 Jun 2019 23:12:47 -   1.92
+++ goals.html  21 Jul 2019 16:16:20 -
@@ -62,6 +62,9 @@
 
 Be as politics-free as possible; solutions should be decided on the
 basis of technical merit.
+To stay focussed on development, the OpenBSD project deliberately
+refrains from having bylaws, elections, formal governance, a
+"core" team, committees, sales and marketing, or anything similar.
 
 Focus on being developer-oriented in all senses, including holding
 developer-only events called hackathons.

Re: OpenBSD Project

[Edgar Pettijohn]

> To everyone who took the time to respond, your responses were outstanding; if 
> only a short and sweet additional page could be added to the main OpenBSD 
> Project WWW site (e.g., under ???Project Team??? or ???Developers") that just 
> succinctly summarizes exactly what you all said.  For ???smaller??? projects 
> without formal governance I guess it all comes down to the people; I can see 
> how if you have a dedicated core of really good, passionate developers formal 
> by-laws and committees are superfluous, but then the question is how would 
> that be sustainable over the long term other than just by manually and 
> personally attracting and retaining the best on an ad hoc basis without a 
> codified, structured process.  But it seems to be clearly working here.
> 
> Downloaded the macppc port of OpenBSD 6.5 to install on a couple IBM PowerPC 
> 970/970MP-based Apple Power Mac G5 machines for a class project (I just need 
> some decent, reliable, no-frills servers, but I wanted to try using something 
> other than AMD64/x86-64-based machines for a change) with very low 
> expectations (after trying to install the macppc port of a peer Noteworthy 
> Excellent Tried-and-true BSD distribution which crashed immediately upon 
> running ofwboot off the install ISO), but the installer Just Worked!  I 
> don???t understand how this project is able to maintain a working legacy 
> macppc port with so few developers.

quality over quantity :)

> 
> All the best,
> Austin
> 
> ???If you want to change the future, start living as if you???re already 
> there.???  ???Lynn Conway
> 

Re: OpenBSD Project

[Австин Ким]

> On July 21, 2019 6:05:28 AM GMT+03:00, bkfuth <[…]> wrote:
> > I have used OpenBSD, for years, in my computer security classes. I find
> > it best suited for these classes. The governance has never been an
> > issue. If you know what you are doing the OpenBSD community is a good
> > one.
> > Stephen Kolars
> > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note� 4, an AT 4G LTE smartphone
> > 
> >  Original message 
> > From: Ingo Schwarze <[…]>
> > Date: 7/20/19  21:44  (GMT-06:00) 
> > To: freen...@gmail.com 
> > Cc: misc@openbsd.org 
> > Subject: Re: OpenBSD Project 
> > 
> > Hi,Avstin Kim wrote:> My question is, how is the OpenBSD Project
> > governance structured;There is no formal structure and no
> > "governance".In day to day business, code owners in parts of the system
> > decidewhat is done (for example, espie@ in pkg_add(1), myself in
> > mandoc(1),claudio@ in OpenBGPD, gilles@ in OpenSMTPd, jsing@ and beck@
> > inLibreSSL, tj@ redgarding the website, and so on; in some areas,more
> > than one person owns the code, sometimes up to a handful).In general,
> > the people deciding ask themselves which is the besttechnical solution,
> > and if there is consensus among developers, itis done.In the rare cases
> > of serious disagreement that cannot be resolvedconsensually, or cannot
> > be resolved without excessive delay ordiscussion, deraadt@ reserves the
> > right to make a final decision,but that does not happen often.There is
> > no core team and certainly, there are never any elections.There are no
> > written rules whatsoever, and no introduction of anywritten rules is
> > planned for the future.  The OpenBSD foundationhas absolutely no say
> > about any aspect of the OpenBSD project.None of all this is documented
> > anywhere because it doesn't matterfor users of the system.If your
> > choice of operating system depends on any kind of formalitiesrather
> > than on technical quality, OpenBSD is not the project youare looking
> > for.Yours,  Ingo
>
> I can only add that ,from all the mailing lists  I'm  subscribed ,  
> misc@openbsd is \
> the most active  mailing list.
>
> This means alot for me, and I suspect for anyone else using openBSD.
>
> Best Regards,
> Strahil Nikolov

To everyone who took the time to respond, your responses were outstanding; if 
only a short and sweet additional page could be added to the main OpenBSD 
Project WWW site (e.g., under “Project Team” or “Developers") that just 
succinctly summarizes exactly what you all said.  For “smaller” projects 
without formal governance I guess it all comes down to the people; I can see 
how if you have a dedicated core of really good, passionate developers formal 
by-laws and committees are superfluous, but then the question is how would that 
be sustainable over the long term other than just by manually and personally 
attracting and retaining the best on an ad hoc basis without a codified, 
structured process.  But it seems to be clearly working here.

Downloaded the macppc port of OpenBSD 6.5 to install on a couple IBM PowerPC 
970/970MP-based Apple Power Mac G5 machines for a class project (I just need 
some decent, reliable, no-frills servers, but I wanted to try using something 
other than AMD64/x86-64-based machines for a change) with very low expectations 
(after trying to install the macppc port of a peer Noteworthy Excellent 
Tried-and-true BSD distribution which crashed immediately upon running ofwboot 
off the install ISO), but the installer Just Worked!  I don’t understand how 
this project is able to maintain a working legacy macppc port with so few 
developers.

All the best,
Austin

“If you want to change the future, start living as if you’re already there.”  
—Lynn Conway

Re: Dig on openbsd too old ?

[Theo de Raadt]

>From owner-misc+M179500=deraadt=cvs.openbsd@openbsd.org Sat Jul 20 
>06:29:27 2019
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>To: misc@openbsd.org
>From: Stuart Henderson 
>Subject: Re: Dig on openbsd too old ?
>Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2019 12:29:04 - (UTC)
>References: <433266986.4159817.1563432072289@mail.yahoo.com>
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>On 2019-07-18, Mik J  wrote:
>>  Thank you Otto for your quick answer.
>>
>> Le jeudi 18 juillet 2019 ?? 08:54:02 UTC+2, Otto Moerbeek 
>>  a ??crit :  
>>  
>>  On Thu, Jul 18, 2019 at 06:41:12AM +, Mik J wrote:
>>
>>> Hello,
>>> I'm using Openbsd 6.5 and have DiG 9.4.2-P2 provided with it.This version 
>>> seems to be old (from 2009) but I couldn't find exactly when it dates.
>>> However new DNS records appeared in 2013 such as CAA in RFC 6844When I dig 
>>> the CAA record dig returns NXDOMAIN 
>>> insteadhttps://dns.google.com/query?name=google.com=CAA=true
>>> Do you think we could have an updated version of dig in Openbsd base ?
>>> Thank you
>>> 
>>> $ dig CAA google.com
>>
>> Yes, known. It is on my list to update it, but I don't know when I
>> will get to it.
>
>BIND switched license to MPL, AFAIK this is no good for base. Personally
>I would be happier to just remove it than update to a still-old version
>as it gets in the way of running something current ..

Remove it?  Unlikely.  There are many situations where people prefer
older+sufficient software rather than running pkg_add.

What is missing in the conversation is the normal process of "oh look a bug,
can we try to fix it".  Someone want to take a shot at it?

Re: OpenBSD's FBI file

[Theo de Raadt]

> There are a lot of redactions here, but it looks like the focus here
> might have been an exploit that lead also to the following OpenSSH
> vuln:
> https://web.archive.org/web/20080622172542/www.iss.net/threats/advise123.html

That is a ridiculous claim.  It is unrelated.

I believe the record is related to a different event which occurred.  It
connects a few dots but water under the bridge.

OpenBSD's FBI file

[Frank Beuth]

https://www.muckrock.com/foi/united-states-of-america-10/foia-fbi-openbsd-70084/

Earlier this year I FOIAed the FBI for details on allegations of backdoor installed 
in the IPSEC stack in 2010, originally discussed by OpenBSD devs 
(https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-tech=129236621626462 …) Today, I got an 
interesting but unexpected responsive record: 
https://www.muckrock.com/foi/united-states-of-america-10/foia-fbi-openbsd-70084/ … 
#FOIAfriday

The record I was provided by the FBI was created Sept. 2002, and details a 
separate investigation into an operation tiled 'OPERATION 0DAY COMPUTER 
INTRUSIONS': 
https://cdn.muckrock.com/foia_files/2019/07/19/Ecd74aeb090e009e1ede26e1a0fe860c184bb6797_Q52218_R348013_D2256726.pdf
 …

To my knowledge there are no other public agency records available regarding 
this.

There are a lot of redactions here, but it looks like the focus here might have 
been an exploit that lead also to the following OpenSSH vuln: 
https://web.archive.org/web/20080622172542/www.iss.net/threats/advise123.html …

"OpenBSD was compromised through the internet host http://cvs.openbsd.org  or 
http://ftp.openbsd.org ,.. [REDACTED] claimed on IRC channel [REDACTED] which he connects 
to from internet hosts in Australia, to have committed the hack."

https://twitter.com/RooneyMcNibNug/status/1152329067707928583

OpenBSD 6.5 is much less responsive (high "spin" state)

[Federico Giannici]

Recently I upgraded an OpenBSD amd64 server from 6.3 to 6.5 (rapidly 
passing through 6.4). This a monitoring server with a lot of processes 
that send "ping" (both ICMP and UDP) packets to a great number of hosts. 
So there is a great number of processes but they spend most of their 
time waiting (for packets to return).


Since the upgrade to 6.5 I have seen a GREAT increase in ping delays and 
variance. It seems that the system is much less "real-time" (yes, I know 
that OpenBSD is not a REAL real-time system).


I noticed that, when many processes are running, a lot of time is spent 
in "spin" state (even more than 50%).


Here it is an example of "top" output:

load averages:  5.98,  5.65,  5.82
350 processes: 68 running, 278 idle, 4 on processor
CPU0 states:  0.0% user,  6.7% nice, 42.3% sys, 39.4% spin,  1.0% intr, 
10.6% idle
CPU1 states:  1.0% user,  5.7% nice, 28.6% sys, 57.1% spin,  0.0% intr, 
7.6% idle
CPU2 states:  0.0% user,  1.9% nice, 24.8% sys, 61.0% spin,  0.0% intr, 
12.4% idle
CPU3 states:  1.9% user,  4.8% nice, 21.9% sys, 63.8% spin,  0.0% intr, 
7.6% idle

Memory: Real: 6309M/8558M act/tot Free: 23G Cache: 1031M Swap: 0K/20G

Is this something "normal"?

Is there something I can do to return the system to be more responsive?
Where I have to direct my efforts?

Thanks.

Re: vmd eating lots of memory

[Paul de Weerd]

On Sun, Jul 21, 2019 at 10:46:06AM +0200, Paul de Weerd wrote:
| on both VMs and host.  If the problem was there too, it didn't affect
| anything else on the system until I upgraded.

Forgot to make explicit: the other vm remains at a constant memory
footprint; also while running /etc/daily

Paul

-- 
>[<++>-]<+++.>+++[<-->-]<.>+++[<+
+++>-]<.>++[<>-]<+.--.[-]
 http://www.weirdnet.nl/ 

Re: vmd eating lots of memory

[Paul de Weerd]

Hi Mike,

On Sat, Jul 20, 2019 at 10:23:02AM -0700, Mike Larkin wrote:
| Did this just start happening? Nothing relevant has changed in vmd(8) recently
| that would cause this, from what I remember.

Prior to this kernel version, I was running

OpenBSD 6.5 (GENERIC.MP) #847: Tue Apr  9 09:12:46 MDT 2019

on both VMs and host.  If the problem was there too, it didn't affect
anything else on the system until I upgraded.

Now that I've found this, I started measuring a bit more.  It looks
like the vmd for undeadly consumes about 8 to 10 MB per hour
(approximately 2MB per 15 minutes, my sample interval).  It varies
quite a bit, and there's a bit spike around when /etc/daily runs of
340 MB and 74 MB.

I'm attaching my samples so far, they're epoch + the VSZ column from
ps for the vmd process per line.

Is there anything else I can collect that can help debug this?

Thanks,

Paul

-- 
>[<++>-]<+++.>+++[<-->-]<.>+++[<+
+++>-]<.>++[<>-]<+.--.[-]
 http://www.weirdnet.nl/ 
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Re: OpenBSD Project

[Strahil Nikolov]

On July 21, 2019 6:05:28 AM GMT+03:00, bkfuth  wrote:
>
>
>I have used OpenBSD, for years, in my computer security classes. I find
>it best suited for these classes. The governance has never been an
>issue. If you know what you are doing the OpenBSD community is a good
>one.Stephen KolarsSent via the Samsung Galaxy Note® 4, an AT 4G LTE
>smartphone
>
> Original message 
>From: Ingo Schwarze  
>Date: 7/20/19  21:44  (GMT-06:00) 
>To: freen...@gmail.com 
>Cc: misc@openbsd.org 
>Subject: Re: OpenBSD Project 
>
>Hi,Avstin Kim wrote:> My question is, how is the OpenBSD Project
>governance structured;There is no formal structure and no
>"governance".In day to day business, code owners in parts of the system
>decidewhat is done (for example, espie@ in pkg_add(1), myself in
>mandoc(1),claudio@ in OpenBGPD, gilles@ in OpenSMTPd, jsing@ and beck@
>inLibreSSL, tj@ redgarding the website, and so on; in some areas,more
>than one person owns the code, sometimes up to a handful).In general,
>the people deciding ask themselves which is the besttechnical solution,
>and if there is consensus among developers, itis done.In the rare cases
>of serious disagreement that cannot be resolvedconsensually, or cannot
>be resolved without excessive delay ordiscussion, deraadt@ reserves the
>right to make a final decision,but that does not happen often.There is
>no core team and certainly, there are never any elections.There are no
>written rules whatsoever, and no introduction of anywritten rules is
>planned for the future.  The OpenBSD foundationhas absolutely no say
>about any aspect of the OpenBSD project.None of all this is documented
>anywhere because it doesn't matterfor users of the system.If your
>choice of operating system depends on any kind of formalitiesrather
>than on technical quality, OpenBSD is not the project youare looking
>for.Yours,  Ingo

I can only add that ,from all the mailing lists  I'm  subscribed ,  
misc@openbsd is the most active  mailing list.

This means alot for me, and I suspect for anyone else using openBSD.

Best Regards,
Strahil Nikolov