Re: Continuation of OpenBSD's Stop the Blob
Andre van Zyl wrote: On the contrary, Mark, right now I personally have a higher regard for Thilo, who actually posted an opinion. Dear Andre, We are not at a popularity contest so it's not about having a higher regard for someone, but about technical facts ( -- eepc, documentation). Nor is it only about having an opinion but about acts. Acts speak more than words ( -- NDA's). Do not only listen to what they preach. Look at what they do. The topic is the fight against blobs. Please Andre if you are so eager to come to the rescue of ignorant people, can you enlighten us on the merits of the eepc and the signing of NDA's in the fight against blobs ? All you've done is posted a typical fanboi response to Theo's reply to Thilo. Who are you trying to impress? You are entitled to your own opinion. I am not trying to impress anyone, I am actually trying to not participate in the spreading of lies and to not stay silent when it occurs. That's why I always let know vendors why I *DID NOT* buy their products and tell them who got the money. If more people would do that, to let companies know why they didn't get the money, things would change. Instead people prefer to spread bullshits on mailing lists, but that's their right too. Acts or *stronger* than opinions Andre. Stop the blob. Do your part. Regards, Mark.
Re: Continuation of OpenBSD's Stop the Blob
On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 07:17:34AM +0200, Thilo Pfennig wrote: Theo de Raadt schrieb: Hi Theo, I hope that nothing I ever say holds back our developers or community from doing what is right. I did not realize that the GNU and Linux kernel hackers were such dutiful slaves. Well yeah, the system is called capitalism and many hackers behave like slaves in this or another way. No my friend it is the other way around. GNU makes developers slaves to their users. In my world I develop code for me; if you like it good for you; if you don't equally good for you. I don't owe you anything. Capitalism can only be enabled by the proper amount of freedom (actual freedom, not what GNU calls freedom). You are talking about people that think there is morality in big words without living up to their side of the bargain. If you see a fucked up system, do you want to fight it? Or do you want to defend the people who don't fight it? I think you are an apologist for those who don't fight the system. Many people see me rather as an open source dogmatist. Personally I am trying to get the big picture WITHOUT being a fanboy of ANY OS. You are what I would call an OS intelligent design or creationist. This is exactly the excuse they use too. And also, as you all know, open documentation has gone a long way till today. No. Open documentation has NOT gone a long way at all. I only know that no hardware I used had been supported and there was no documentation for it when I started running Linux - and that now many companies share their information, from companies who did not even know about FLOSS back then or would have declined to open source anything or share any information. So, sure there is still also a long way to go, but to say nothing has happened is also wrong and it would also mean that OpenBSD has not accomplished anything in that matter? You all think this is all about 2 kinds of video cards. Video cards, video cards, video cards, video cards, video cards, video cards, video cards, video cards... cry cry cry. what about all the rest of the things in a machine? I cited that because it was falsely stated that Linux hackers have never tried to change the situation and would do so now for the first time. They sure havent done enough, or focused too much on only a few hardware bits like you pointed out. But that wasnt the point. It is true; the best they have done is say, hey man can you guys please help?, oh where do I sign?. It is like most things GNU, lip service without action. Where do you come up with this load of crap? The eeepc has an UNDOCUMENTED ethernet chip and an UNDOCUMENTED wireless chip. Actually I have to admit that I just assumed that that would be the case. I should have checked that. Exactly, assumptions, assumptions, assumptions! See you fit right in with the other GNU fanboys that believe their spiritual leader: blah blah blah without research. What a load of crap. You don't know what you are talking about. Everything else you said is exactly the same blathering; you are trying to say happy Linux things but there are no facts to support that the Linux crew or FSF has done ANYTHING which has gotten documentation for hardware out there. They have failed to use their dominant position to anyone else, and they have done a damn poor job of even supporting themselves. Just for the records: Does this mean that you either count documentation releases like AMDs, as in fact NOTHING or SOMETHING but has only happened because of OpenBSD? That is it should be! Why are you giving cookies to companies that do what they are supposed to do? And how long did it take for AMD to free up docs? And why? Answer those questions and suddenly you'll see it wasn't out of the goodness of their hearts. Also I thought Coreboot was a good idea. It is not? Sure if you have 1 of the 2 supported motherboards. What did they do? Linux developers and the companies that employ them have spend the last ten years signing NDAs with vendors, and therefore only that very small group of people have the documentation. It's not even lots of Linux developers who have those docs; no, in each case it is typically 1-3 developers who have docs for a particular chipset, and then when a bug is found by an outsider he has to work without docs. ACK It wasnt my intention to anger anybody, but obviously I did. As it turns out this is seen by some as not only a matter of truth but also something very emotional. What I basically was trying to say is that from my recognition this is not the first time Linux hackers have spoken up. I cant make any prove against the cases you have made because I have not investigated the matters in depth and it would take quite some time. They pretend to speak up followed by no action. In fact GNU fanboys come to the rescue of closed source companies
Re: Continuation of OpenBSD's Stop the Blob
Marco Peereboom wrote: Many people see me rather as an open source dogmatist. Personally I am trying to get the big picture WITHOUT being a fanboy of ANY OS. You are what I would call an OS intelligent design or creationist. This is exactly the excuse they use too. You funny, so there is only two options: Eitehr be a fanbox or if you arent thats the proof you are? How can somebody not be a fanboy then? I dont really get the intelligent design relation. Your reasoning sounds to me like the ones from conspiracy theorists that say that the denial of the government that UFOs exist is the proof that they exist. Just for the records: Does this mean that you either count documentation releases like AMDs, as in fact NOTHING or SOMETHING but has only happened because of OpenBSD? That is it should be! Why are you giving cookies to companies that do what they are supposed to do? And how long did it take for AMD to free up docs? And why? Answer those questions and suddenly you'll see it wasn't out of the goodness of their hearts. I suppose it took so long because AMD is paranoid like many companies. The interesting question in this thread would be why they did open up more at all. Because OpenBSD pushed them to do it? Please share your wisdom and tell me why they did it? It was projects like OpenBSD that showed what bold faced liars they were for them to change their ways. It was action of the unfriendly kind that got stuff done. Get your facts straight. In which cases? Regards, Thilo -- Thilo Pfennig - PfennigSolutions IT-Beratung- Wiki-Systeme Sandkrug 28 - 24143 Kiel (Germany) http://www.pfennigsolutions.de/ XING: https://www.xing.com/profile/Thilo_Pfennig - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tpfennig
Re: Continuation of OpenBSD's Stop the Blob
Thilo Pfennig wrote: The popularity of Linux has helped to create a market that has better and more open documentation - and machines that are made to work perfect with Linux (like eeepc) are more easily made to work perfectly for OpenBSD and other free OSes. Hehe, thanks for the good laugh ! Thilo you already look like a fool. Please do yourself a favor and get some education before spreading bullshits on this list. It's clear you don't know what you are talking about. Regards, Mark.
Re: Continuation of OpenBSD's Stop the Blob
On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 8:21 AM, Thilo Pfennig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Marco Peereboom wrote: It was projects like OpenBSD that showed what bold faced liars they were for them to change their ways. It was action of the unfriendly kind that got stuff done. Get your facts straight. In which cases? You will have to do some research, but it's in misc's archives. -- http://www.glumbert.com/media/shift http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGvHNNOLnCk This officer's men seem to follow him merely out of idle curiosity. -- Sandhurst officer cadet evaluation. Securing an environment of Windows platforms from abuse - external or internal - is akin to trying to install sprinklers in a fireworks factory where smoking on the job is permitted. -- Gene Spafford learn french: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1G-3laJJP0feature=related
Re: Continuation of OpenBSD's Stop the Blob
Hehe, thanks for the good laugh ! Thilo you already look like a fool. On the contrary, Mark, right now I personally have a higher regard for Thilo, who actually posted an opinion. All you've done is posted a typical fanboi response to Theo's reply to Thilo. Who are you trying to impress? Please do yourself a favor and get some education before spreading bullshits on this list. It's clear you don't know what you are talking about. Perhaps you would do well to heed your own advice... -Andre
Continuation of OpenBSD's Stop the Blob
It seems that OpenBSD's Stop the Blob message is getting more recognition: http://www.fsdaily.com/stop-blob As the article points out, better late than never. Though OpenBSD had been on my list of things to look at for years, it was the Stop-the-Blob campaign that provided for me the final nudge. Regards -Lars
Re: Continuation of OpenBSD's Stop the Blob
2008/6/26 Lars Noodin [EMAIL PROTECTED]: It seems that OpenBSD's Stop the Blob message is getting more recognition: http://www.fsdaily.com/stop-blob As the article points out, better late than never. GPL'd drivers don't help much; some argue that they are part of the problem. http://www.openbsd.org/papers/opencon06-docs/index.html Best Martin
Re: Continuation of OpenBSD's Stop the Blob
On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 9:46 PM, Lars Noodin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It seems that OpenBSD's Stop the Blob message is getting more recognition: http://www.fsdaily.com/stop-blob As the article points out, better late than never. Though OpenBSD had been on my list of things to look at for years, it was the Stop-the-Blob campaign that provided for me the final nudge. sorry - the final nudge to do what exactly? Stop the blob? Everybody should listened a long time ago. I suppose it's good that the message has finally come out now from the linux developers, but man... havent they let those blobby fools (and we all know the most famous example) entrench themselves already? -jf this has been my signature for like the longest time now... -- -- In the meantime, here is your PSA: It's so hard to write a graphics driver that open-sourcing it would not help. -- Andrew Fear, Software Product Manager, NVIDIA Corporation http://kerneltrap.org/node/7228
Re: Continuation of OpenBSD's Stop the Blob
Jeffrey 'jf' Lim wrote: sorry - the final nudge to do what exactly? Get off my backside and try working with OpenBSD. -Lars
Re: Continuation of OpenBSD's Stop the Blob
Jeffrey 'jf' Lim wrote: On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 9:46 PM, Lars Noodin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It seems that OpenBSD's Stop the Blob message is getting more recognition: http://www.fsdaily.com/stop-blob As the article points out, better late than never. Though OpenBSD had been on my list of things to look at for years, it was the Stop-the-Blob campaign that provided for me the final nudge. sorry - the final nudge to do what exactly? Stop the blob? Everybody should listened a long time ago. I suppose it's good that the message has finally come out now from the linux developers, but man... havent they let those blobby fools (and we all know the most famous example) entrench themselves already? it will always be unpopular to have the right opinion at first, especially when it invalidates the work of others. the cattle only go 'm!!' after they've been branded. serves them right. if you build it wrong they will come... hold on, that doesn't sound right... cheers, jake -jf this has been my signature for like the longest time now... -- -- In the meantime, here is your PSA: It's so hard to write a graphics driver that open-sourcing it would not help. -- Andrew Fear, Software Product Manager, NVIDIA Corporation http://kerneltrap.org/node/7228
Re: Continuation of OpenBSD's Stop the Blob
On 2008-06-26, Jeffrey 'jf' Lim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It seems that OpenBSD's Stop the Blob message is getting more recognition: http://www.fsdaily.com/stop-blob As the article points out, better late than never. Though OpenBSD had been on my list of things to look at for years, it was the Stop-the-Blob campaign that provided for me the final nudge. sorry - the final nudge to do what exactly? Stop the blob? Everybody should listened a long time ago. I suppose it's good that the message has finally come out now from the linux developers, but man... Many of them didn't think it through though. Docs not drivers...
Re: Continuation of OpenBSD's Stop the Blob
On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 9:57 PM, Martin Schrvder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2008/6/26 Lars Noodin [EMAIL PROTECTED]: It seems that OpenBSD's Stop the Blob message is getting more recognition: http://www.fsdaily.com/stop-blob As the article points out, better late than never. GPL'd drivers don't help much; some argue that they are part of the problem. http://www.openbsd.org/papers/opencon06-docs/index.html Best Martin this is good stuff, but... why'd u even mention GPL? I dont see any mention of GPL in there. -jf -- In the meantime, here is your PSA: It's so hard to write a graphics driver that open-sourcing it would not help. -- Andrew Fear, Software Product Manager, NVIDIA Corporation http://kerneltrap.org/node/7228
Re: Continuation of OpenBSD's Stop the Blob
Lars NoodC)n schrieb: It seems that OpenBSD's Stop the Blob message is getting more recognition: http://www.fsdaily.com/stop-blob As the article points out, better late than never. Though OpenBSD had been on my list of things to look at for years, it was the Stop-the-Blob campaign that provided for me the final nudge. Regards -Lars Sorrym but your are misguided. GNU and the Linux kernel hackers have protested often over all the years. One thing that has holded them back is that firstly Linus does not seem to care very much about the GNU principles (but he cared so much to chose GNU license) - another thing seems to be that many Linux kernel hackers work for companies that understand their mission as to provide the customers with what they want. And also, as you all know, open documentation has gone a long way till today. For long years on many hardware parts free software was not available. Richard Stallman protested openly in 2006 more visible than OpenBSD did: http://www.fsf.org/blogs/community/rms-ati-protest.html You are right that OpenBSD and Theo did make reoccuring demands over many years and one could truely say that OpenBSD has always been more determined and clear. If Linus would have been an advocate for free software I am sure things would have been gone in a different direction. Personally I believe all free operating systems have worked on the change of the situation. The popularity of Linux has helped to create a market that has better and more open documentation - and machines that are made to work perfect with Linux (like eeepc) are more easily made to work perfectly for OpenBSD and other free OSes. There are different paths that are walked, but I remember there have been a lot of quarrels with hardware vendors from the Linux kernel hackers and often some hackers tried to establish a more strict policy. My guess is that more Linux hackers today think that they have enough drivers to push things forward and to use the power to indeed force hardware vendors to comply. In the past users were more used to beg for support and documentation and everything that was given - and if it only where NVIDIA binary drivers where applauded as a great gift. But now times are changing - maybe some hackers always thought like that but did not believe in a possible success - but now they do. Linus could help greatly if he would speak out in the same sense. I doubt he will, because he is thinking more about practical aspects, which means he seems to see a free license of the kernel as very important but also thinks that if things work somehow, that is good enough and that forcing the vendors might backlash somehow. Regards, Thilo -- Thilo Pfennig - PfennigSolutions IT-Beratung- Wiki-Systeme Sandkrug 28 - 24143 Kiel (Germany) http://www.pfennigsolutions.de/ XING: https://www.xing.com/profile/Thilo_Pfennig - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tpfennig
Re: Continuation of OpenBSD's Stop the Blob
Lars NoodC)n schrieb: It seems that OpenBSD's Stop the Blob message is getting more recognition: http://www.fsdaily.com/stop-blob As the article points out, better late than never. Though OpenBSD had been on my list of things to look at for years, it was the Stop-the-Blob campaign that provided for me the final nudge. Regards -Lars Sorrym but your are misguided. GNU and the Linux kernel hackers have protested often over all the years. One thing that has holded them back is that firstly Linus I hope that nothing I ever say holds back our developers or community from doing what is right. I did not realize that the GNU and Linux kernel hackers were such dutiful slaves. does not seem to care very much about the GNU principles (but he cared so much to chose GNU license) I -- and many of our team -- don't give a rats as about the GNU principles either, and look how much more we have done. - another thing seems to be that many Linux kernel hackers work for companies that understand their mission as to provide the customers with what they want. This other thing is actually the ONLY problem. It is just business as usual for the Linux wanna-be-monopoly. It is that those people work at companies that sign NDAs to get them documentation, and then noone else gets the documentation. Yes, they are already people of a higher class, and then why would they spend even a second of their time making the docs more free. They feel so special and empowered to be in the inner clique; so they don't fight a fucked up system. If you see a fucked up system, do you want to fight it? Or do you want to defend the people who don't fight it? I think you are an apologist for those who don't fight the system. And also, as you all know, open documentation has gone a long way till today. No. Open documentation has NOT gone a long way at all. Do you have full Broadcom 100mb / gigabit ethernet documentation? Do you have Intel 100mb / gigabit ethernet chipset programming documentation? Do you have documentation for ANY wireless chipsets except the two or three that we pressured to be free? If you don't have documentation for those, what do you have? What is a long way for you? Perhaps a 100 year plan? For long years on many hardware parts free software was not available. Richard Stallman protested openly in 2006 more visible than OpenBSD did: http://www.fsf.org/blogs/community/rms-ati-protest.html He cried, and nothing happened. He cried, and then did no reverse engineering. He cried, and the only people who listened and agreed are those who do nothing. You all think this is all about 2 kinds of video cards. Video cards, video cards, video cards, video cards, video cards, video cards, video cards, video cards... cry cry cry. what about all the rest of the things in a machine? You are right that OpenBSD and Theo did make reoccuring demands over many years and one could truely say that OpenBSD has always been more determined and clear. If Linus would have been an advocate for free software I am sure things would have been gone in a different direction. Personally I believe all free operating systems have worked on the change of the situation. Personally I believe that all the other free operating systems added together have worked MUCH LESS on this than we have. The popularity of Linux has helped to create a market that has better and more open documentation - and machines that are made to work perfect with Linux (like eeepc) are more easily made to work perfectly for OpenBSD and other free OSes. Where do you come up with this load of crap? The eeepc has an UNDOCUMENTED ethernet chip and an UNDOCUMENTED wireless chip. Of course it works in Linux, because the ethernet vendor gave an undocumented source code driver to the Linux vendors, and the wireless vendor gave an undocumented BINARY driver to the Linux vendors, and oh boy, that makes it all so good, and such a GREAT example. No other PC laptop selling today has more undocumented parts than this laptop. Your example is so pathetic; it shows you have not a clue. You are an utter idiot. The eeepc is an exact manifistation of the problem coming round again. One year ago we had complete support of every major component in every laptop, and then voila, this Linux-based laptop came out which required a LINUX BLOB. You are a clueless fanboy. What a load of crap. You don't know what you are talking about. Everything else you said is exactly the same blathering; you are trying to say happy Linux things but there are no facts to support that the Linux crew or FSF has done ANYTHING which has gotten documentation for hardware out there. They have failed to use their dominant position to anyone else, and they have done a damn poor job of even supporting themselves. Any documentation which is out there is because we pushed it out, or some specific person or company decided to. The FSF and Linux never
Re: Continuation of OpenBSD's Stop the Blob
What a load of crap. You don't know what you are talking about. Everything else you said is exactly the same blathering; you are trying to say happy Linux things but there are no facts to support that the Linux crew or FSF has done ANYTHING which has gotten documentation for hardware out there. They have failed to use their dominant position to anyone else, and they have done a damn poor job of even supporting themselves. That was my thought when reading his missive. Not enough people in the Linux community are concerned with anything other than popularity at this point, popularity that is gained by catering to the masses with stuff that supports their hardware whether it's secure and reliable or in most cases not. Greg -- Support the Lo Desert Protosites: http://lodesertprotosites.org Dethink to survive - Mclusky
Re: Continuation of OpenBSD's Stop the Blob
Theo de Raadt schrieb: Hi Theo, I hope that nothing I ever say holds back our developers or community from doing what is right. I did not realize that the GNU and Linux kernel hackers were such dutiful slaves. Well yeah, the system is called capitalism and many hackers behave like slaves in this or another way. If you see a fucked up system, do you want to fight it? Or do you want to defend the people who don't fight it? I think you are an apologist for those who don't fight the system. Many people see me rather as an open source dogmatist. Personally I am trying to get the big picture WITHOUT being a fanboy of ANY OS. And also, as you all know, open documentation has gone a long way till today. No. Open documentation has NOT gone a long way at all. I only know that no hardware I used had been supported and there was no documentation for it when I started running Linux - and that now many companies share their information, from companies who did not even know about FLOSS back then or would have declined to open source anything or share any information. So, sure there is still also a long way to go, but to say nothing has happened is also wrong and it would also mean that OpenBSD has not accomplished anything in that matter? You all think this is all about 2 kinds of video cards. Video cards, video cards, video cards, video cards, video cards, video cards, video cards, video cards... cry cry cry. what about all the rest of the things in a machine? I cited that because it was falsely stated that Linux hackers have never tried to change the situation and would do so now for the first time. They sure havent done enough, or focused too much on only a few hardware bits like you pointed out. But that wasnt the point. Where do you come up with this load of crap? The eeepc has an UNDOCUMENTED ethernet chip and an UNDOCUMENTED wireless chip. Actually I have to admit that I just assumed that that would be the case. I should have checked that. What a load of crap. You don't know what you are talking about. Everything else you said is exactly the same blathering; you are trying to say happy Linux things but there are no facts to support that the Linux crew or FSF has done ANYTHING which has gotten documentation for hardware out there. They have failed to use their dominant position to anyone else, and they have done a damn poor job of even supporting themselves. Just for the records: Does this mean that you either count documentation releases like AMDs, as in fact NOTHING or SOMETHING but has only happened because of OpenBSD? Also I thought Coreboot was a good idea. It is not? What did they do? Linux developers and the companies that employ them have spend the last ten years signing NDAs with vendors, and therefore only that very small group of people have the documentation. It's not even lots of Linux developers who have those docs; no, in each case it is typically 1-3 developers who have docs for a particular chipset, and then when a bug is found by an outsider he has to work without docs. ACK It wasnt my intention to anger anybody, but obviously I did. As it turns out this is seen by some as not only a matter of truth but also something very emotional. What I basically was trying to say is that from my recognition this is not the first time Linux hackers have spoken up. I cant make any prove against the cases you have made because I have not investigated the matters in depth and it would take quite some time. Regards, Thilo PS: Although I got a full rant from you I want to say that I have always liked your standpoint against proprietary drivers and for open documentation, which was one of the reasons to partly switch to OpenBSD, because I also felt that Linux hackers did not do and say enough. Anyway.
