Re: Major Surprise with xdm on 3.7

[Dave Feustel]

On Wednesday 17 August 2005 16:15, Baldur Sigurpsson wrote:
> >>Indeed, very secure. If I've physical access to your laptop, all I
> >>need is a screwdriver to open it, pull out the disk and connect it
> >>to another machine.

excerpted from http://www.rockbox.org/lock.html
===
Still locked?


If the above suggestions don't work, here's some background info about the disk 
lock feature: 


The disk lock is a built-in security feature in the disk. It is part of the ATA 
specification, 
and thus not specific to any brand or device. 


A disk always has two passwords: A User password and a Master password. 
Most disks support a Master Password Revision Code, which can tell you if the 
Master password has been changed, or it it still the factory default. The 
revision 
code is word 92 in the IDENTIFY response. A value of 0xFFFE means the Master 
password is unchanged. 


A disk can be locked in two modes: High security mode or Maximum security 
mode. Bit 8 in word 128 of the IDENTIFY response tell you which mode your 
disk is in: 0 = High, 1 = Maximum. 


In High security mode, you can unlock the disk with either the user or master 
password, using the "SECURITY UNLOCK DEVICE" ATA command. There is an 
attempt limit, normally set to 5, after which you must power cycle or 
hard-reset 
the disk before you can attempt again. 


In Maximum security mode, you cannot unlock the disk! The only way to get the 
disk back to a usable state is to issue the SECURITY ERASE PREPARE command, 
immediately followed by SECURITY ERASE UNIT. The SECURITY ERASE UNIT 
command requires the Master password and will completely erase all data on the 
disk. The operation is rather slow, expect half an hour or more for big disks. 
(Word 89 in the IDENTIFY response indicates how long the operation will take.)

Re: Major Surprise with xdm on 3.7

[Dave Feustel]

On Wednesday 17 August 2005 16:15, Baldur Sigurpsson wrote:
> >>Indeed, very secure. If I've physical access to your laptop, all I
> >>need is a screwdriver to open it, pull out the disk and connect it
> >>to another machine.

The disk password is part of the ATA interface spec. I would like you to
actually try your thought experiment of setting the password on a laptop
drive, then moving the drive to another laptop, and then trying to read
the contents of the drive without supplying the password. Let me know
if it works.

Re: Major Surprise with xdm on 3.7

[Rod Dorman]

On Wednesday, August 17, 2005, 17:15:37, Baldur Sigurpsson wrote:
>  ...
> Didn't I make it clear that I choose the password myself, or am I
> misunderstanding something?

Google for bios master password


-- 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] "The avalanche has already started, it is too
Rod Dorman  late for the pebbles to vote."  Ambassador Kosh

Re: Major Surprise with xdm on 3.7

[Peter Hessler]

:>why the hassle, there are master passwords for those biosses, and 
:>they're not that hard to find out.
:>
:
:Didn't I make it clear that I choose the password myself, or am I 
:misunderstanding something?
:
:Regards, Baldur
:

The master password is in addition to the password that you chose.  
Either/or will allow you access.

Re: Major Surprise with xdm on 3.7

[Baldur Sigurðsson]

Henning Brauer wrote:

* Matthias Kilian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2005-08-16 22:58]:


On Tue, Aug 16, 2005 at 07:26:38PM +, Baldur Sigurpsson wrote:
[...]


Clever. A password-protected power switch...



Actually, I have configured the bios on my laptop to ask for a password 
before even loading any kernel or doing anything, and it was quite 
simple actually. not only is it good for security reasons, but it also 
gives me time to hit f12 or f2 to choose the boot-device or enter 
bios-setup;)


Indeed, very secure. If I've physical access to your laptop, all I
need is a screwdriver to open it, pull out the disk and connect it
to another machine.


hmm... I have to say, you got me there :/

/me opens his head with a screwdriver

at least it is good for the timing thing, and one could not do this 
without some time alone with the laptop, anonther computer, and, 
ofcourse, a screwdriver;)
this hack would be easy if the someone would steel the laptop, but if 
someone would want a short look into it behind my back in a sneaky 
manner, _that_ would become quite hard;)



why the hassle, there are master passwords for those biosses, and 
they're not that hard to find out.




Didn't I make it clear that I choose the password myself, or am I 
misunderstanding something?


Regards, Baldur

Re: Major Surprise with xdm on 3.7

[Ryan Corder]

Matthias Kilian wrote:
> Indeed, very secure. If I've physical access to your laptop, all I
> need is a screwdriver to open it, pull out the disk and connect it
> to another machine.

not *completely* related, but I have the following alias that I use
to start X from the console:

  alias startx='/usr/bin/ssh-agent /usr/X11R6/bin/startx > \
~/.startx.log 2>&1 & vlock -a'

it's pretty obvious what this does, but it basically starts up
the SSH agent, starts X, and locks the TTY.  most of the time you
can see the TTY lock before X ever starts.

I do this because I came to the realization a long time ago that
by not starting X via xdm (gdm, kdm, whatever) one could kill X
and get to your console by a simple Ctrl-Alt-Backspace...even with
the screensaver locked.

later.
ryanc

Re: Major Surprise with xdm on 3.7

[Dave Feustel]

On Tuesday 16 August 2005 15:48, Matthias Kilian wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 16, 2005 at 07:26:38PM +, Baldur Sigurpsson wrote:
> [...]
> > >Clever. A password-protected power switch...
> > >
> > 
> > Actually, I have configured the bios on my laptop to ask for a password 
> > before even loading any kernel or doing anything, and it was quite 
> > simple actually. not only is it good for security reasons, but it also 
> > gives me time to hit f12 or f2 to choose the boot-device or enter 
> > bios-setup;)
> 
> Indeed, very secure. If I've physical access to your laptop, all I
> need is a screwdriver to open it, pull out the disk and connect it
> to another machine.
> 
> Ciao,
>   Kili

That won't do you any good if the disk password has also been set.

Re: Major Surprise with xdm on 3.7

[Henning Brauer]

* Matthias Kilian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2005-08-16 22:58]:
> On Tue, Aug 16, 2005 at 07:26:38PM +, Baldur Sigurpsson wrote:
> [...]
> > >Clever. A password-protected power switch...
> > >
> > 
> > Actually, I have configured the bios on my laptop to ask for a password 
> > before even loading any kernel or doing anything, and it was quite 
> > simple actually. not only is it good for security reasons, but it also 
> > gives me time to hit f12 or f2 to choose the boot-device or enter 
> > bios-setup;)
> 
> Indeed, very secure. If I've physical access to your laptop, all I
> need is a screwdriver to open it, pull out the disk and connect it
> to another machine.

why the hassle, there are master passwords for those biosses, and 
they're not that hard to find out.

-- 
BS Web Services, http://www.bsws.de/
OpenBSD-based Webhosting, Mail Services, Managed Servers, ...
Unix is very simple, but it takes a genius to understand the simplicity.
(Dennis Ritchie)

Re: Major Surprise with xdm on 3.7

[Matthias Kilian]

On Tue, Aug 16, 2005 at 07:26:38PM +, Baldur Sigurpsson wrote:
[...]
> >Clever. A password-protected power switch...
> >
> 
> Actually, I have configured the bios on my laptop to ask for a password 
> before even loading any kernel or doing anything, and it was quite 
> simple actually. not only is it good for security reasons, but it also 
> gives me time to hit f12 or f2 to choose the boot-device or enter 
> bios-setup;)

Indeed, very secure. If I've physical access to your laptop, all I
need is a screwdriver to open it, pull out the disk and connect it
to another machine.

Ciao,
Kili

-- 
Zesterdaz, all mz kezboards were so far awaz. (Beatles)
-- Claus-Peter Warnecke, dtj, 12.3.2001

Re: Major Surprise with xdm on 3.7

[Baldur Sigurðsson]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Fri, Aug 12, 2005 at 05:39:37AM -0500, Dave Feustel wrote:


On Thursday 11 August 2005 19:35, Justin Reigle wrote:


I now think that there is a security advantage to using xdm to bring up
KDE - namely, that there is no unprotected console session which can be
hijacked by someone sitting down at the computer, finding the session
from which KDE was started, and putting startkde in the background.



Well, what happens when they reboot the box, go in with boot -s,
get the root shell and cause havoc?


The computer requires a password to reboot.



Clever. A password-protected power switch...



Actually, I have configured the bios on my laptop to ask for a password 
before even loading any kernel or doing anything, and it was quite 
simple actually. not only is it good for security reasons, but it also 
gives me time to hit f12 or f2 to choose the boot-device or enter 
bios-setup;)

I can't imagine this to be some ultra-rare feature :)

[...]

Regards, Baldur

Re: Major Surprise with xdm on 3.7

[hellsop]

On Fri, Aug 12, 2005 at 05:39:37AM -0500, Dave Feustel wrote:
> On Thursday 11 August 2005 19:35, Justin Reigle wrote:
> > > I now think that there is a security advantage to using xdm to bring up
> > > KDE - namely, that there is no unprotected console session which can be
> > > hijacked by someone sitting down at the computer, finding the session
> > > from which KDE was started, and putting startkde in the background.
> > > 
> > 
> > Well, what happens when they reboot the box, go in with boot -s,
> > get the root shell and cause havoc?
> 
> The computer requires a password to reboot.

Clever. A password-protected power switch...

> > If you're that concerned about people 
> > sitting down in front of your machine to cause problems, then protect it
> > with something physical (e.g. caged rack with lock).
> 
> Actually I'm not particularly concerned about this right now.

What problem are you wanting to solve then?

-- 
73. I will not agree to let the heroes go free if they win a rigged contest, 
even though my advisors assure me it is impossible for them to win.
--Peter Anspach's list of things to do as an Evil Overlord

Re: Major Surprise with xdm on 3.7

[Ramiro Aceves]

Dave Feustel wrote:
> On Friday 12 August 2005 07:02, you wrote:
> 
>>Dave Feustel wrote:
>>
>>>On Friday 12 August 2005 05:29, Ramiro Aceves wrote:
>>>
>>>
>I understand that.
>
>It is beginning to look like I have had for at least 2 years a serious
>misconception about what using xdm permits OpenBSD to do in terms
>of running multiple users in windows mode.
>
>What I want to do is make it possible for multiple users simultaneously 
>to login and run kde on C0-C3. Is that possible? 
>
>Thanks.
>
>

Hello.

I am new to this list. I come from Debian Linux. I find OpenBSD a very
interesting system and I have installed and learning it on my spare
machine. Thank you guys! Documentation is great!

I used to do the following under Debian Linux:

>From a console text window, I run startx. A graphical fluxbox session
starts. From there, I pressed ctrl-atl-F2. I am at a new text login. I
login as another user  and pressed:

$ startx -- :1

And now I have two graphical fluxbox sesions at the same machine. I do
not know if it works the same under OpenBSD. Both graphical sessions are
at ctr-alt-F7 and crtl-atl-F8.

Just my two cents.
Ramiro.
>>>
>>>
>>>Hello Ramiro,
>>>
>>>I don't think this works in OpenBSD right now. But what you describe would
>>>work for me if it did.
>>>
>>>Thanks for the feedback,
>>>Dave Feustel
>>>
>>
>>Oh yes, I have just tested it and does NOT work here.
>>
>>Sorry.
>>Ramiro.
> 
> 
> No Problem. Check out the command Xnest.
> I read yesterday in a followup that that command
> permits simultaneous multiple graphical logins. 
> 
> Dave> 
> 
> 
Thanks, I will try it!
Ramiro.

Re: Major Surprise with xdm on 3.7

[Jack Bates]

Good Day:

Dave Feustel states:

> multiple independent instances of kde running, each one attached
> to a different virtual terminal (C0-C3) on the same computer. Then
> I could be logged on as two different users simultaneously...

I've successfully used Xvnc under a Knoppix hdinstall this purpose.  I've
never tried this under OpenBSD, but I don't see why it wouldn't work just
the same.  You access these virtual sessions with a VNC client.  There is
still only one console X session, if you have a console session at all -
these things are "pure virtual", if you will.  These virtual sessions can
have their screen locked for privacy purposes, just like any other KDE
session.

Xvnc is available as an OpenBSD 3.7 binary package.

Hope this is helpful.

-- 
Jack Bates
Venice, CA, USA
I play Texas Hold'Em at http://www.fulltiltpoker.com

Re: Major Surprise with xdm on 3.7

[Ramiro Aceves]

Dave Feustel wrote:
> On Friday 12 August 2005 05:29, Ramiro Aceves wrote:
> 
>>>I understand that.
>>>
>>>It is beginning to look like I have had for at least 2 years a serious
>>>misconception about what using xdm permits OpenBSD to do in terms
>>>of running multiple users in windows mode.
>>>
>>>What I want to do is make it possible for multiple users simultaneously 
>>>to login and run kde on C0-C3. Is that possible? 
>>>
>>>Thanks.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Hello.
>>
>>I am new to this list. I come from Debian Linux. I find OpenBSD a very
>>interesting system and I have installed and learning it on my spare
>>machine. Thank you guys! Documentation is great!
>>
>>I used to do the following under Debian Linux:
>>
>>>From a console text window, I run startx. A graphical fluxbox session
>>starts. From there, I pressed ctrl-atl-F2. I am at a new text login. I
>>login as another user  and pressed:
>>
>>$ startx -- :1
>>
>>And now I have two graphical fluxbox sesions at the same machine. I do
>>not know if it works the same under OpenBSD. Both graphical sessions are
>>at ctr-alt-F7 and crtl-atl-F8.
>>
>>Just my two cents.
>>Ramiro.
> 
> 
> Hello Ramiro,
> 
> I don't think this works in OpenBSD right now. But what you describe would
> work for me if it did.
> 
> Thanks for the feedback,
> Dave Feustel
> 

Oh yes, I have just tested it and does NOT work here.

Sorry.
Ramiro.

Re: Major Surprise with xdm on 3.7

[Dave Feustel]

On Friday 12 August 2005 05:29, Ramiro Aceves wrote:
> > I understand that.
> > 
> > It is beginning to look like I have had for at least 2 years a serious
> > misconception about what using xdm permits OpenBSD to do in terms
> > of running multiple users in windows mode.
> > 
> > What I want to do is make it possible for multiple users simultaneously 
> > to login and run kde on C0-C3. Is that possible? 
> > 
> > Thanks.
> > 
> > 
> 
> Hello.
> 
> I am new to this list. I come from Debian Linux. I find OpenBSD a very
> interesting system and I have installed and learning it on my spare
> machine. Thank you guys! Documentation is great!
> 
> I used to do the following under Debian Linux:
> 
> >From a console text window, I run startx. A graphical fluxbox session
> starts. From there, I pressed ctrl-atl-F2. I am at a new text login. I
> login as another user  and pressed:
> 
> $ startx -- :1
> 
> And now I have two graphical fluxbox sesions at the same machine. I do
> not know if it works the same under OpenBSD. Both graphical sessions are
> at ctr-alt-F7 and crtl-atl-F8.
> 
> Just my two cents.
> Ramiro.

Hello Ramiro,

I don't think this works in OpenBSD right now. But what you describe would
work for me if it did.

Thanks for the feedback,
Dave Feustel

Re: Major Surprise with xdm on 3.7

[Dave Feustel]

On Thursday 11 August 2005 19:35, Justin Reigle wrote:
> > I now think that there is a security advantage to using xdm to bring up
> > KDE - namely, that there is no unprotected console session which can be
> > hijacked by someone sitting down at the computer, finding the session
> > from which KDE was started, and putting startkde in the background.
> > 
> 
> Well, what happens when they reboot the box, go in with boot -s,
> get the root shell and cause havoc?

The computer requires a password to reboot.

> If you're that concerned about people 
> sitting down in front of your machine to cause problems, then protect it
> with something physical (e.g. caged rack with lock).

Actually I'm not particularly concerned about this right now.

Re: Major Surprise with xdm on 3.7

[Ramiro Aceves]

> I understand that.
> 
> It is beginning to look like I have had for at least 2 years a serious
> misconception about what using xdm permits OpenBSD to do in terms
> of running multiple users in windows mode.
> 
> What I want to do is make it possible for multiple users simultaneously 
> to login and run kde on C0-C3. Is that possible? 
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> 

Hello.

I am new to this list. I come from Debian Linux. I find OpenBSD a very
interesting system and I have installed and learning it on my spare
machine. Thank you guys! Documentation is great!

I used to do the following under Debian Linux:

>From a console text window, I run startx. A graphical fluxbox session
starts. From there, I pressed ctrl-atl-F2. I am at a new text login. I
login as another user  and pressed:

$ startx -- :1

And now I have two graphical fluxbox sesions at the same machine. I do
not know if it works the same under OpenBSD. Both graphical sessions are
at ctr-alt-F7 and crtl-atl-F8.

Just my two cents.
Ramiro.

Re: Major Surprise with xdm on 3.7

[Marius Van Deventer - Umzimkulu]

> -Original Message-
> From: Dave Feustel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Sent: 11 August 2005 07:26 PM
> To: Henning Brauer
> Cc: misc@openbsd.org
> Subject: Re: Major Surprise with xdm on 3.7
> 
> 

> 
> But I ran KDE by manually starting it for a long time.
> What is the point of a graphical login for only one user?
> I expected that when I enabled xdm, more than one 
> user could login and run kde (I.e 4  copies of kde could
> be run simultaneously on my computer, 1 each at C0-C3.
> I clearly have misapprehended something wrt graphical
> login. What am I missing here?
> 


That would be the job of remote X logins

Read up on XDMCP. I use it to access my OBSD box from my windows machine
across the room using X-Windows.
Although it does not allow multiple graphical logins from one machibe,
you can have multiple graphical logings to one server from many clients,
Kinda like a Windows Thin Client (whitch is itself modeled on XDMCP to
an extent).

[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/x-pkcs7-signature which 
had a name of smime.p7s]

Re: Major Surprise with xdm on 3.7

[Justin Reigle]

> I now think that there is a security advantage to using xdm to bring up
> KDE - namely, that there is no unprotected console session which can be
> hijacked by someone sitting down at the computer, finding the session
> from which KDE was started, and putting startkde in the background.
> 

Well, what happens when they reboot the box, go in with boot -s,
get the root shell and cause havoc? If you're that concerned about people
sitting down in front of your machine to cause problems, then protect it
with something physical (e.g. caged rack with lock).

Re: Major Surprise with xdm on 3.7

[Dave Feustel]

On Thursday 11 August 2005 17:01, Marc Espie wrote:
> Note that having `startkde' run X and launch kde in it from a tty
> is a cute trick I wrote to help start people.
> 
> I'm afraid that, for now, if you want to run xdm/kdm, you really
> have to do some configuration work yourself...

Marc,

Startkde has been a very useful program for me.
I've used it continuously for almost 3 years, going
back to when I was first learning how to use ppp
over dialup as my internet connection after I switched
to OpenBSD from Windows. 

I think xdm/startkde (and Xnest) may do the job for me.


Dave

Re: Major Surprise with xdm on 3.7

[Dave Feustel]

On Thursday 11 August 2005 16:16, Bryan Irvine wrote:
> > What I want to do is make it possible for multiple users simultaneously
> > to login and run kde on C0-C3. Is that possible?
> 
> I think you might want to take a look at Xnest.  While it won't allow
> you to to switch with function keys, it would allow you to have more
> than one user logged in to a graphical interface and "switch" users. 
> I've done this before.  It's similar to the "fast user switching"
> feature of Mac OS X, and Windows XP, albeit with a quick stop at the
> logon screen to choose the user (note that the other user does not get
> logged out).
> 
> --Bryan

Xnest sounds like it does what I want.  Now to decipher the man page :-)

Thanks,
Dave

Re: Major Surprise with xdm on 3.7

[Shawn K. Quinn]

On Thu, 2005-08-11 at 15:56 -0400, Will H. Backman wrote:
> 
> I have heard that OpenGL stuff doesn't like this, so while you can get
> multiple desktops on different virtual consoles, you won't have an
> equal experience on them.

I was under the impression OpenBSD didn't support OpenGL anyway, or did
I misread something?

-- 
Shawn K. Quinn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Re: Major Surprise with xdm on 3.7

[Marc Espie]

On Thu, Aug 11, 2005 at 12:25:38PM -0500, Dave Feustel wrote:
> On Thursday 11 August 2005 11:59, Henning Brauer wrote:
> > * Dave Feustel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2005-08-11 18:57]:
> > > I just discovered that even though xdm is running,
> > > terminals C[0-3] are running in character mode
> > > ie. if, while logged in via xdm, I enter ctl-alt-F[0-3],
> > > I get a tty login!!!
> >
> > eh, yes, of course.
> 
> This may be obvious to you, but it is not to me.
> 
> > > And if, alfter logging in to one of those tty screens,
> > > I atempt to start KDE, I am informed that I can't
> > > because the x server is already running.
> >
> > because it is already running?
> 
> But I ran KDE by manually starting it for a long time.

Note that having `startkde' run X and launch kde in it from a tty
is a cute trick I wrote to help start people.

I'm afraid that, for now, if you want to run xdm/kdm, you really
have to do some configuration work yourself...

Re: Major Surprise with xdm on 3.7

[Dave Feustel]

On Thursday 11 August 2005 15:42, Joseph C. Bender wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Aug 2005, Dave Feustel wrote:
> 
> > Keep in mind that xdm does not at all do what I thought it did.
> > If using xdm does not permit simultaeneous multiple instances of KDE 
> > on my computer, then I see no advantage to using xdm.

I now think that there is a security advantage to using xdm to bring up
KDE - namely, that there is no unprotected console session which can be
hijacked by someone sitting down at the computer, finding the session
from which KDE was started, and putting startkde in the background.

>   How about having the graphics system up when the machine boots?
> There's lots of reasons to use the software.
> 
> I'm still not understanding why you want to have multiple users logged in 
> at the same time on one machine via multiple consoles.  Given one keyboard 
> and mouse, one would think that only one user would be using the machine 
> at one time.

But one user (at least me) would like to be able to be logged in as two 
different
users at the same time. Each login with its own instance of KDE. I would switch
between the 2 (or more) versions of KDE, each displaying full screen
(but not both at the same time) using some key-combo like alt-shift-f1.

Re: Major Surprise with xdm on 3.7

[Ted Unangst]

On Thu, 11 Aug 2005, Gustavo Rios wrote:

> if i have a dual head Video Board, two mice, two keyboards, would it
> be possible to configure X to allow two users working on the same box,
> i.e., two X login screens, and of course, those login screens totally
> independent?

theoretically, yes.

-- 
And that's why they have the ceremonies and why they need a
mammalian form with the human harmonics in order to access
higher levels of awareness.

Re: Major Surprise with xdm on 3.7

[Matthias Kilian]

On Thu, Aug 11, 2005 at 03:44:24PM -0500, Dave Feustel wrote:
> Here  is the OpenBSD 3.7 content of /etc/X11/*xdm*/Xservers
> which states that additional entries can only be added on a per display,
> not per screen basis. Of course this may not be correct.

Please, PLEASE, read at least X(1) and xdm(1) to get comfortable
with the terms `display' and `screen' on X11.

If in doubt, play around with Xnest(1), and be sure to try it with
several screens (e.g. try -scrns 2).

What you want is different *displays*  running on different X server
instances and attached to different virtual consoles (which at least
doesn't work on my local workstation, but that's another story).

Ciao,
Kili

-- 
I don't care what gutter Wim is lying in, make sure he's lying on
his back, please!
-- Marc Espie on undeadly.org

Re: Major Surprise with xdm on 3.7

[Bryan Irvine]

> What I want to do is make it possible for multiple users simultaneously
> to login and run kde on C0-C3. Is that possible?

I think you might want to take a look at Xnest.  While it won't allow
you to to switch with function keys, it would allow you to have more
than one user logged in to a graphical interface and "switch" users. 
I've done this before.  It's similar to the "fast user switching"
feature of Mac OS X, and Windows XP, albeit with a quick stop at the
logon screen to choose the user (note that the other user does not get
logged out).

--Bryan

Re: Major Surprise with xdm on 3.7

[Gustavo Rios]

BTW,

if i have a dual head Video Board, two mice, two keyboards, would it
be possible to configure X to allow two users working on the same box,
i.e., two X login screens, and of course, those login screens totally
independent?

Thanks for your advice.

Re: Major Surprise with xdm on 3.7

[Dave Feustel]

On Thursday 11 August 2005 15:23, Darrin Chandler wrote:
> Dave Feustel wrote:
> 
> >Keep in mind that xdm does not at all do what I thought it did.
> >If using xdm does not permit simultaeneous multiple instances of KDE 
> >on my computer, then I see no advantage to using xdm.
> >  
> >
> From a message by Branden Robinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]  PROTECTED]>>:
> 
> /etc/X11/*xdm*/Xservers determines what X servers are managed by *xdm*.
> 
> 2 login screens on the local machine, both managed by *xdm*, is pretty
> straightforward.
> 
> :0 local /usr/bin/X11/X :0 vt7 -bpp 32
> :1 local /usr/bin/X11/X :1 vt8 -bpp 32
> 
> Simply put something like above two lines in /etc/X11/*xdm*/Xservers.
> Some of the options to the X server (the part after /usr/bin/X11/X) may
> be wrong or redundant in your case.
> 
> 
> You can probably leave off the rest of the lines after the vtX, and 
> substitute 
> your own vtX (vt2, vt3, etc.) 

Here  is the OpenBSD 3.7 content of /etc/X11/*xdm*/Xservers
which states that additional entries can only be added on a per display,
not per screen basis. Of course this may not be correct.

/etc/X11/xdm}cat Xservers
# $Xorg: Xserv.ws.cpp,v 1.3 2000/08/17 19:54:17 cpqbld Exp $
#
# Xservers file, workstation prototype
#
# This file should contain an entry to start the server on the
# local display; if you have more than one display (not screen),
# you can add entries to the list (one per line).  If you also
# have some X terminals connected which do not support XDMCP,
# you can add them here as well.  Each X terminal line should
# look like:
#   XTerminalName:0 foreign
#
:0 local /usr/X11R6/bin/X vt05
/etc/X11/xdm}   

Re: Major Surprise with xdm on 3.7

[Joseph C. Bender]

On Thu, 11 Aug 2005, Dave Feustel wrote:

> Keep in mind that xdm does not at all do what I thought it did.
> If using xdm does not permit simultaeneous multiple instances of KDE 
> on my computer, then I see no advantage to using xdm.
> 
How about having the graphics system up when the machine boots?
There's lots of reasons to use the software.

I'm still not understanding why you want to have multiple users logged in 
at the same time on one machine via multiple consoles.  Given one keyboard 
and mouse, one would think that only one user would be using the machine 
at one time.




-- 
Signing off,

Joseph C. Bender
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
"Does the government fear us?  Or do we fear the government?  When the 
people fear the government, tyranny has found victory. The federal 
government is our servant, not our master."  ---Thomas Jefferson

Re: Major Surprise with xdm on 3.7

[Darrin Chandler]

Dave Feustel wrote:


Keep in mind that xdm does not at all do what I thought it did.
If using xdm does not permit simultaeneous multiple instances of KDE 
on my computer, then I see no advantage to using xdm.
 


From a message by Branden Robinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED] >:


/etc/X11/*xdm*/Xservers determines what X servers are managed by *xdm*.

2 login screens on the local machine, both managed by *xdm*, is pretty
straightforward.

:0 local /usr/bin/X11/X :0 vt7 -bpp 32
:1 local /usr/bin/X11/X :1 vt8 -bpp 32

Simply put something like above two lines in /etc/X11/*xdm*/Xservers.
Some of the options to the X server (the part after /usr/bin/X11/X) may
be wrong or redundant in your case.


You can probably leave off the rest of the lines after the vtX, and substitute 
your own vtX (vt2, vt3, etc.)

Re: Major Surprise with xdm on 3.7

[Will H. Backman]

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of
> Wijnand Wiersma
> Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 2:05 PM
> To: misc
> Subject: Re: Major Surprise with xdm on 3.7
> 
> I never tried it in OpenBSD, but usually when I already have logged in
> graphically I can go to a console, type X :1 -query localhost and get
> another xdm login screen.
> 
> Wijnand

I have heard that OpenGL stuff doesn't like this, so while you can get
multiple desktops on different virtual consoles, you won't have an equal
experience on them.

Re: Major Surprise with xdm on 3.7

[Dave Feustel]

On Thursday 11 August 2005 14:17, Darrin Chandler wrote:
> I once got into xdm the way you describe and had a devil of a time 
> getting back out. That was the first and last time I used xdm. But if 
> that's what you want to do then more power to you.

Keep in mind that xdm does not at all do what I thought it did.
If using xdm does not permit simultaeneous multiple instances of KDE 
on my computer, then I see no advantage to using xdm.

Re: Major Surprise with xdm on 3.7

[Timothy Donahue]

On Thursday 11 August 2005 01:41 pm, Paul de Weerd wrote:
>
> The fact that you can not run multiple X servers on one videocard, as
> it currently stands.
>
> You really should read up on ttys(5) and the X Windows.
>

That isn't entirely true, on my Linux desktop I have gdm starting 2 virtual 
consoles with graphical logins, one I use for XDMCP to connect to other 
systems and the other gets used to log into the local computer.  This is 
great when I want to do something that is installed on my laptop, but want to 
take advantage of my dual head setup on my desktop.  I believe that you 
configure this in the Xservers for xdm, however I normally don't use xdm so 
Google will be your best bet for information.  

I have also seen allusions to the fact that it possible to have multiple 
keyboards/mice/monitors to allow multiple to allow multiple people to access 
a single workstation at the same time, but I have yet to see any concrete 
evidence of people that get it to work correctly.  However the OP seemed to 
be asking for what I described earlier, that is multiple virtual consoles for 
a "Fast User Switching" type setup on his computer, which is possible, please 
note: it is EXTREMELY resource intensive.

Tim Donahue

Re: Major Surprise with xdm on 3.7

[Dave Feustel]

On Thursday 11 August 2005 13:54, Mats O Jansson wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Aug 2005, Dave Feustel wrote:
>   
> > What I dn't yet quite grasp is why there cannot be multiple independent 
> > instances of kde running, each one attached to a different virtual terminal
> > (C0-C3) on the same computer. Then I could be logged on as two different
> > users simultaneously, switching back and forth between screens using the
> > ctl-alt-fcn keys. If this is not possible right now on OpenBSD, it might be 
> > an 
> > interesting project.
> 
> I think you don't understand what a X-server is. It the part that talks
> with the graphics card. You don't need a X-server to be able to run
> X-applications on a machine. But you need a X-server on the machine
> displaying the information. xdm makes it possible to start a session
> on one machine from another and ttys has nothing to do with that.
> 
> -moj

This is not what I would have expected, but I understand what you're
writing and it makes sense to me. 

Re: Major Surprise with xdm on 3.7

[Darrin Chandler]

I think there are people doing what you're describing. Try Googling on 
xdm+ttys or xdm+lock.down and you'll see some tips for FreeBSD, Linux, 
etc. One of these might work for you.


I once got into xdm the way you describe and had a devil of a time 
getting back out. That was the first and last time I used xdm. But if 
that's what you want to do then more power to you.

Re: Major Surprise with xdm on 3.7

[Spruell, Darren-Perot]

From: Dave Feustel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> What I dn't yet quite grasp is why there cannot be multiple 
> independent 
> instances of kde running, each one attached to a different 
> virtual terminal
> (C0-C3) on the same computer. Then I could be logged on as 
> two different
> users simultaneously, switching back and forth between 
> screens using the
> ctl-alt-fcn keys. If this is not possible right now on 
> OpenBSD, it might be an 
> interesting project.

Because, to my knowledge, X doesn't work that way.

You run startx on a virtual terminal. Yes, the command runs from that tty,
but your X session is now bound to the video adapter and is running on e.g.
tty7 - or whatever it is you get to when you hit ctrl+alt+7, or whichever
one you go to to get to X. So now X is "bound" to your adapter, and you are
running KDE from there. You want to launch KDE again? It tries to fire up X
and can't because X is already running. 

I think of it like trying to bind the same TCP port to an interface twice on
the same IP address. If you start httpd on 127.0.0.1:80, you can't have a
second httpd running on 127.0.0.1:80; you've already tied that port up and
you need a new source address (e.g. 192.168.0.1) or another tcp port (e.g.
81) in order to start another httpd up.

I'm no X guru by any means, but in my limited experience using it it seems
like you must have multiple adaptors to start multiple X sessions. 

DS

Re: Major Surprise with xdm on 3.7

[Mats O Jansson]

On Thu, 11 Aug 2005, Dave Feustel wrote:
  
> What I dn't yet quite grasp is why there cannot be multiple independent 
> instances of kde running, each one attached to a different virtual terminal
> (C0-C3) on the same computer. Then I could be logged on as two different
> users simultaneously, switching back and forth between screens using the
> ctl-alt-fcn keys. If this is not possible right now on OpenBSD, it might be 
> an 
> interesting project.

I think you don't understand what a X-server is. It the part that talks
with the graphics card. You don't need a X-server to be able to run
X-applications on a machine. But you need a X-server on the machine
displaying the information. xdm makes it possible to start a session
on one machine from another and ttys has nothing to do with that.

-moj

Re: Major Surprise with xdm on 3.7

[Dave Feustel]

On Thursday 11 August 2005 13:05, Wijnand Wiersma wrote:
> I never tried it in OpenBSD, but usually when I already have logged in
> graphically I can go to a console, type X :1 -query localhost and get
> another xdm login screen.
> 
> Wijnand
> 
I just tried this and it fails with the following error:

 Fatal server error:
xf86MapVidMem: Could not mmap /dev/vga (Invalid argument)

Re: Major Surprise with xdm on 3.7

[Dave Feustel]

Thanks for the advice, Paul. I'll try to follow it.

On Thursday 11 August 2005 13:04, Paul de Weerd wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 11, 2005 at 12:49:13PM -0500, Dave Feustel wrote:
> | On Thursday 11 August 2005 12:13, Paul de Weerd wrote:
> | > xdm is for graphical logins. text-mode console logins are handled by
> | > getty(8). You can not make xdm handle text-mode logins, that's not
> | > what it's designed to do.
> | 
> | I understand that.
> | 
> | It is beginning to look like I have had for at least 2 years a serious
> | misconception about what using xdm permits OpenBSD to do in terms
> | of running multiple users in windows mode.
> | 
> | What I want to do is make it possible for multiple users simultaneously 
> | to login and run kde on C0-C3. Is that possible? 
> 
> Multiple users, simultaneously - that requires multiple X servers.
> Either with multiple video cards and monitors (this is possible) and
> multiple keyboard/mice (dont know how feasible this is, may be
> possible using USB keyboards/ mice, but I never tried) or a couple of
> X terminals (can be found on ebay for as little as $15) with something
> like XDMCP.
> 
> I do suggest that you follow the advice from some other posters to not
> disable the gettys on your system - you will find out why if you do
> disable them.
> 
> Again, I suggest you read up on some of this material before asking
> more questions. Google has a world of information ready for you.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Paul 'WEiRD' de Weerd

Re: Major Surprise with xdm on 3.7

[Christian Weisgerber]

Paul de Weerd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Besides that, if you log in on a text console, use startx(1) to launch
> X, lock your X session when you leave your computer (of course) then
> anyone can switch to the text console where you started X, suspend
> (^Z) or stop (^C or ^\) that and access your account.

Using "exec startx" comes to mind.

-- 
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Major Surprise with xdm on 3.7

[Dave Feustel]

On Thursday 11 August 2005 12:28, Will H. Backman wrote:
> The virtual consoles emulate a bunch of the old dumb terminals that
> would be attached to a Unix machine.  Unix is multi-user.  Having extra
> consoles is really a good thing.  If you manage to lock up your session,
> you always have another terminal you can switch to for fixing things.
> You don't want xdm to be the only gateway into the machine, as it may
> get messed up.

Believe me, I understand and agree with what you write. OS/2's biggest 
dficiencty was that it was single user. What you write is the reason that I 
waited sooo long to try out xdm, thinking that I could lock myself out of my 
system if all the consoles locked up as a result of a mistake I made setting
up xdm. Of course, now I know how to boot with rd and fix mistakes in files
(as long as I can remember what I broke :-) ).


What I dn't yet quite grasp is why there cannot be multiple independent 
instances of kde running, each one attached to a different virtual terminal
(C0-C3) on the same computer. Then I could be logged on as two different
users simultaneously, switching back and forth between screens using the
ctl-alt-fcn keys. If this is not possible right now on OpenBSD, it might be an 
interesting project.

Re: Major Surprise with xdm on 3.7

[Paul de Weerd]

On Thu, Aug 11, 2005 at 12:49:13PM -0500, Dave Feustel wrote:
| On Thursday 11 August 2005 12:13, Paul de Weerd wrote:
| > xdm is for graphical logins. text-mode console logins are handled by
| > getty(8). You can not make xdm handle text-mode logins, that's not
| > what it's designed to do.
|
| I understand that.
|
| It is beginning to look like I have had for at least 2 years a serious
| misconception about what using xdm permits OpenBSD to do in terms
| of running multiple users in windows mode.
|
| What I want to do is make it possible for multiple users simultaneously
| to login and run kde on C0-C3. Is that possible?

Multiple users, simultaneously - that requires multiple X servers.
Either with multiple video cards and monitors (this is possible) and
multiple keyboard/mice (dont know how feasible this is, may be
possible using USB keyboards/ mice, but I never tried) or a couple of
X terminals (can be found on ebay for as little as $15) with something
like XDMCP.

I do suggest that you follow the advice from some other posters to not
disable the gettys on your system - you will find out why if you do
disable them.

Again, I suggest you read up on some of this material before asking
more questions. Google has a world of information ready for you.

Cheers,

Paul 'WEiRD' de Weerd

--
>[<++>-]<+++.>+++[<-->-]<.>+++[<+
+++>-]<.>++[<>-]<+.--.[-]
 http://www.weirdnet.nl/

[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]

Re: Major Surprise with xdm on 3.7

[Wijnand Wiersma]

I never tried it in OpenBSD, but usually when I already have logged in
graphically I can go to a console, type X :1 -query localhost and get
another xdm login screen.

Wijnand

Re: Major Surprise with xdm on 3.7

[Dave Feustel]

On Thursday 11 August 2005 12:41, Paul de Weerd wrote:

> The fact that you can not run multiple X servers on one videocard, as
> it currently stands.

I did not think a separate server was required for each terminal window.
That may be one of my conceptual problems about how X Windows works.

> You really should read up on ttys(5) and the X Windows.

Thanks for the input Paul. I think I understand the tty part, but the 
X-windows part is still quite foggy, and I definitely had a misapprehension 
about what it does or what it is capable of. I never worked with W windows
before I started running OpenBSD, I'll keep working on it. I appreciate your
patience.

Dave

Re: Major Surprise with xdm on 3.7

[Dave Feustel]

On Thursday 11 August 2005 12:13, Paul de Weerd wrote:
> xdm is for graphical logins. text-mode console logins are handled by
> getty(8). You can not make xdm handle text-mode logins, that's not
> what it's designed to do.

I understand that.

It is beginning to look like I have had for at least 2 years a serious
misconception about what using xdm permits OpenBSD to do in terms
of running multiple users in windows mode.

What I want to do is make it possible for multiple users simultaneously 
to login and run kde on C0-C3. Is that possible? 

Thanks.

Re: Major Surprise with xdm on 3.7

[STeve Andre']

On Thursday 11 August 2005 13:25, you wrote:
> On Thursday 11 August 2005 11:59, Henning Brauer wrote:
> > * Dave Feustel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2005-08-11 18:57]:
> > > I just discovered that even though xdm is running,
> > > terminals C[0-3] are running in character mode
> > > ie. if, while logged in via xdm, I enter ctl-alt-F[0-3],
> > > I get a tty login!!!
> >
> > eh, yes, of course.
>
> This may be obvious to you, but it is not to me.
>
> > > And if, alfter logging in to one of those tty screens,
> > > I atempt to start KDE, I am informed that I can't
> > > because the x server is already running.
> >
> > because it is already running?
>
> But I ran KDE by manually starting it for a long time.
> What is the point of a graphical login for only one user?
> I expected that when I enabled xdm, more than one
> user could login and run kde (I.e 4  copies of kde could
> be run simultaneously on my computer, 1 each at C0-C3.
> I clearly have misapprehended something wrt graphical
> login. What am I missing here?
[snip]

We all have our own expectations and experiences, but this was exactly
what I expected, the first time I ran KDE from via xdm.

I now have all three worlds to use: 1) I have several consoles in text
mode, 2) I have the kde world (kmail is what I use), 3) I can bring up
a console terminal program, 4) I can run X programs.

I see this as a great thing, myself.

--STeve Andre'

Re: Major Surprise with xdm on 3.7

[J. Lievisse Adriaanse]

On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 12:25:38 -0500
Dave Feustel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Thursday 11 August 2005 11:59, Henning Brauer wrote:
> > * Dave Feustel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2005-08-11 18:57]:
> > > I just discovered that even though xdm is running,
> > > terminals C[0-3] are running in character mode
> > > ie. if, while logged in via xdm, I enter ctl-alt-F[0-3],
> > > I get a tty login!!!
> >
> > eh, yes, of course.
> 
> This may be obvious to you, but it is not to me.

Well why are you running OpenBSD then? This ain't no Linux where 
you can drop in and ask stupid and dumb questions (as you 
have been doing this today), without doing your homework.

Jasper

-- 
"Security is decided by quality" -- Theo de Raadt

Re: Major Surprise with xdm on 3.7

[Paul de Weerd]

On Thu, Aug 11, 2005 at 12:25:38PM -0500, Dave Feustel wrote:
| > because it is already running?
|
| But I ran KDE by manually starting it for a long time.
| What is the point of a graphical login for only one user?

You can log out and let another user use the computer, letting them
log in (graphically or textually) to their own session.

Besides that, if you log in on a text console, use startx(1) to launch
X, lock your X session when you leave your computer (of course) then
anyone can switch to the text console where you started X, suspend
(^Z) or stop (^C or ^\) that and access your account.

Not so when using xdm, xdm starts from rc, runs as root/_xdm and
guards you against this misuse.

| I expected that when I enabled xdm, more than one
| user could login and run kde (I.e 4  copies of kde could
| be run simultaneously on my computer, 1 each at C0-C3.
| I clearly have misapprehended something wrt graphical
| login. What am I missing here?

The fact that you can not run multiple X servers on one videocard, as
it currently stands.

You really should read up on ttys(5) and the X Windows.

Cheers,

Paul 'WEiRD' de Weerd

--
>[<++>-]<+++.>+++[<-->-]<.>+++[<+
+++>-]<.>++[<>-]<+.--.[-]
 http://www.weirdnet.nl/

[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]

Re: Major Surprise with xdm on 3.7

[Will H. Backman]

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of
> Dave Feustel
> Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 12:52 PM
> To: misc@openbsd.org
> Subject: Major Surprise with xdm on 3.7
> 
> I just discovered that even though xdm is running,
> terminals C[0-3] are running in character mode
> ie. if, while logged in via xdm, I enter ctl-alt-F[0-3],
> I get a tty login!!!
> And if, alfter logging in to one of those tty screens,
> I atempt to start KDE, I am informed that I can't
> because the x server is already running.
> 
> How do I get xdm to handle all console logins?
> 
> Thanks,
> Dave Feustel

The virtual consoles emulate a bunch of the old dumb terminals that
would be attached to a Unix machine.  Unix is multi-user.  Having extra
consoles is really a good thing.  If you manage to lock up your session,
you always have another terminal you can switch to for fixing things.
You don't want xdm to be the only gateway into the machine, as it may
get messed up.

Re: Major Surprise with xdm on 3.7

[Dave Feustel]

On Thursday 11 August 2005 11:59, Henning Brauer wrote:
> * Dave Feustel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2005-08-11 18:57]:
> > I just discovered that even though xdm is running,
> > terminals C[0-3] are running in character mode
> > ie. if, while logged in via xdm, I enter ctl-alt-F[0-3],
> > I get a tty login!!!
>
> eh, yes, of course.

This may be obvious to you, but it is not to me.

> > And if, alfter logging in to one of those tty screens,
> > I atempt to start KDE, I am informed that I can't
> > because the x server is already running.
>
> because it is already running?

But I ran KDE by manually starting it for a long time.
What is the point of a graphical login for only one user?
I expected that when I enabled xdm, more than one 
user could login and run kde (I.e 4  copies of kde could
be run simultaneously on my computer, 1 each at C0-C3.
I clearly have misapprehended something wrt graphical
login. What am I missing here?

Thanks
> > How do I get xdm to handle all console logins?
>
> consulting /etc/ttys can help you shooting yourself in the feet this
> way

Re: Major Surprise with xdm on 3.7

[Paul de Weerd]

On Thu, Aug 11, 2005 at 11:51:38AM -0500, Dave Feustel wrote:
| I just discovered that even though xdm is running,
| terminals C[0-3] are running in character mode

Hardly a surprise, of course. Please read up on ttys(5). You can not
have run OpenBSD without having logged in to a text-mode console
before, have you ? You've logged in there before, it's no surprise
that you can still log in on those terminals.

| ie. if, while logged in via xdm, I enter ctl-alt-F[0-3],
| I get a tty login!!!

Yes, that's the way it is supposed to work.

| And if, alfter logging in to one of those tty screens,
| I atempt to start KDE, I am informed that I can't
| because the x server is already running.

Of course, because the X server *is* already running. You are in fact
logged in. No surprise there, again.

| How do I get xdm to handle all console logins?

xdm is for graphical logins. text-mode console logins are handled by
getty(8). You can not make xdm handle text-mode logins, that's not
what it's designed to do.

What, exactly, is your problems with the gettys running on the text-
mode consoles ?

I suggest some major reading on how all this stuff is supposed to
work. ttys, getty, xdm, X are some nice places to start. This is all
quite extensively documented. A whole world of webpages describe the
things you're seeing. Some help from your friend google could have
told you everything I just wrote.

Happy reading.

Paul 'WEiRD' de Weerd

--
>[<++>-]<+++.>+++[<-->-]<.>+++[<+
+++>-]<.>++[<>-]<+.--.[-]
 http://www.weirdnet.nl/

[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]

Re: Major Surprise with xdm on 3.7

[Henning Brauer]

* Dave Feustel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2005-08-11 18:57]:
> I just discovered that even though xdm is running,
> terminals C[0-3] are running in character mode
> ie. if, while logged in via xdm, I enter ctl-alt-F[0-3],
> I get a tty login!!!

eh, yes, of course.

> And if, alfter logging in to one of those tty screens,
> I atempt to start KDE, I am informed that I can't
> because the x server is already running.

because it is already running?

> How do I get xdm to handle all console logins?

consulting /etc/ttys can help you shooting yourself in the feet this 
way

-- 
BS Web Services, http://www.bsws.de/
OpenBSD-based Webhosting, Mail Services, Managed Servers, ...
Unix is very simple, but it takes a genius to understand the simplicity.
(Dennis Ritchie)

Major Surprise with xdm on 3.7

[Dave Feustel]

I just discovered that even though xdm is running,
terminals C[0-3] are running in character mode
ie. if, while logged in via xdm, I enter ctl-alt-F[0-3],
I get a tty login!!!
And if, alfter logging in to one of those tty screens,
I atempt to start KDE, I am informed that I can't
because the x server is already running.

How do I get xdm to handle all console logins?

Thanks,
Dave Feustel