Re: OT: Looking for email host with qmail like minus-addressing for custom domain

[Craig Skinner]

On 2016-03-05 Sat 21:56 PM |, Stuart Henderson wrote:
> 
> Besides qmail, this is easy to setup with Postfix (my preferred option
> for these)

Default:
$ postconf -d recipient_delimiter
recipient_delimiter =

Set this to your favourite character in /etc/postfix/main.cf:
$ postconf recipient_delimiter
recipient_delimiter = +

Cheers.
-- 
It's hard to drive at the limit,
but it's harder to know where the limits are.
-- Stirling Moss

Re: OT: Looking for email host with qmail like minus-addressing for custom domain

[ludovic coues]

2016-03-06 11:21 GMT+01:00 Stuart Henderson :
> On 2016/03/06 09:07, ludovic coues wrote:
>> 2016-03-05 22:56 GMT+01:00 Stuart Henderson :
>> >
>> > For OpenSMTPD I haven't tried it but I suspect you may be able to do
>> > this with a virtual map using a python script via table-python (in
>> > ooensmtpd-extras in ports) but there isn't much documentation for
>> > this. Though actually a quick search for "opensmtpd table-python"
>> > throws up https://gist.github.com/unconfigured/e72a18f3dd12f7c4fc5c
>> > which looks pretty much like what you need there.
>> >
>>
>> OpenSMTPD in base 5.8 support sqlite table which might be enough.
>
> The mapping would need to be something like 'foo-...@example.com' -> 'foo'
> or 'foo-...@example.com' -> 'example', I don't see how to do this with the
> string handling functions available in sqlite. (And in 5.9+ the sqlite
> table is in opensmtpd-extras as well).
>

I might be missing some corner-case but "instr" look like a good fit.

  sqlite > create table user (username text, uid int, gid int, home text);
  sqlite > insert into user values ("foo", 1000, 10, "/home/foo");
  sqlite > insert into user values ("bar", 1001, 10, "/home/bar");
  sqlite > select * from user where instr("foo-...@exemple.com", username) = 1;
  foo

I assume it would work roughly the same for alias.
In the end, it's a matter of personal preference, even more if support
for sqlite is dropped from base.



-- 

Cordialement, Coues Ludovic
+336 148 743 42

Re: OT: Looking for email host with qmail like minus-addressing for custom domain

[Stuart Henderson]

On 2016/03/06 09:07, ludovic coues wrote:
> 2016-03-05 22:56 GMT+01:00 Stuart Henderson :
> >
> > For OpenSMTPD I haven't tried it but I suspect you may be able to do
> > this with a virtual map using a python script via table-python (in
> > ooensmtpd-extras in ports) but there isn't much documentation for
> > this. Though actually a quick search for "opensmtpd table-python"
> > throws up https://gist.github.com/unconfigured/e72a18f3dd12f7c4fc5c
> > which looks pretty much like what you need there.
> >
> 
> OpenSMTPD in base 5.8 support sqlite table which might be enough.

The mapping would need to be something like 'foo-...@example.com' -> 'foo'
or 'foo-...@example.com' -> 'example', I don't see how to do this with the
string handling functions available in sqlite. (And in 5.9+ the sqlite
table is in opensmtpd-extras as well).

Re: OT: Looking for email host with qmail like minus-addressing for custom domain

[ludovic coues]

2016-03-05 22:56 GMT+01:00 Stuart Henderson :
>
> For OpenSMTPD I haven't tried it but I suspect you may be able to do
> this with a virtual map using a python script via table-python (in
> ooensmtpd-extras in ports) but there isn't much documentation for
> this. Though actually a quick search for "opensmtpd table-python"
> throws up https://gist.github.com/unconfigured/e72a18f3dd12f7c4fc5c
> which looks pretty much like what you need there.
>

OpenSMTPD in base 5.8 support sqlite table which might be enough.

-- 

Cordialement, Coues Ludovic
+336 148 743 42

Re: OT: Looking for email host with qmail like minus-addressing for custom domain

[Stuart Henderson]

On 2016-03-02, Claus Niesen  wrote:
> I used to run my own at home mailserver (openbsd + qmail) .  Since I no
> longer have a static IP, I switched to an email provider that supports
> minus addressing but operates in the dark ages, especially in regards to
> security updates.  Needless to say I need a better host.  I'd rather not
> host my own mailserver but so far haven't been able to find an
> alternative.

Unless someone comes up with a recommendation I think you'll need to one
way or another, either a real machine or a cheap vps (vm based colo).
You could just use this to redirect to another single email address or
"convert" - to +, but you may run into problems with spam filtering 
especially if you're feeding it to a large provider, or you could run
the mail storage yourself (imap/etc).

Besides qmail, this is easy to setup with Postfix (my preferred option
for these) and Exim, it should also be possible with sendmail but you
may have to grovel around in the cf parts, I think the m4 files only
deal with +.

For OpenSMTPD I haven't tried it but I suspect you may be able to do
this with a virtual map using a python script via table-python (in
ooensmtpd-extras in ports) but there isn't much documentation for
this. Though actually a quick search for "opensmtpd table-python"
throws up https://gist.github.com/unconfigured/e72a18f3dd12f7c4fc5c 
which looks pretty much like what you need there.

Re: OT: Looking for email host with qmail like minus-addressing for custom domain

[Stuart Henderson]

On 2016-03-03, Constantine A. Murenin  wrote:
> On 3 March 2016 at 14:39, Andy Bradford  wrote:
>> Thus said Gilles Chehade on Thu, 03 Mar 2016 10:14:48 +0100:
>>
>>> Who should get mail for foo-bar@ ?
>>
>> The MTA will decide who will get foo-bar@.
>
> How?  A /dev/mind RPC? :-)

By reading the configuration.

>>> This just doesn't happen with + because:
>>
>> It also doesn't happen with an MTA that can figure these things out.
>
> So, how would it figure it out?
>
> And what happens if a "conflicting" user gets created after a mail was
> sent, but before it was delivered?  "This behaviour is undefined"?

Obviously if you're using this type of addressing you simply don't add
a conflicting email address.

Re: OT: Looking for email host with qmail like minus-addressing for custom domain

[lists]

Thu, 3 Mar 2016 14:55:58 -0600 "Constantine A. Murenin"

> On 2 March 2016 at 14:19, Claus Niesen  wrote:
> > Sorry for the off topic question but I'm hoping that maybe some of your
> > know of or work for an email hosting provider

Cut here.

> > I used to run my own at home mailserver (openbsd + qmail) .

Time to resume this practice with OpenBSD and OpenSMTPD again, while
transitioning out of the currently "inadequate" host.  Or pay up and
don't bring the ads with the queries.

> > security updates.  Needless to say I need a better host.  I'd rather not
> > host my own mailserver but so far haven't been able to find an
> > alternative.

Here is the major discrepancy between your expectations and reality.

You don't honesty think somebody's balance sheet is less important than
your security for junk mail hosting (as the host sees your values).

> > Your suggestions are greatly appreciated.  Feel free to contact me off
> > list.

This is where ads go --> to you off list.  A gentle nudge: look for a
hosting forum and search OpenBSD there.

> > Specific requirements:
> > - allows usage of custom domain
> > - reliable and secure  

And I want a truthful historic record of every event for 25K yrs back.

> So, how much are you willing to pay for this service?

Looks like a salesman on the line.
 
> Static IP costs on a residential connection usually start at 5 USD/mo
> in the US.

Very useful information.  Go figure about resource block lists right
after you suck up to your asynchronous puny ISP policies and virtually
unlimited peering compared to practically non existent international.

> At this price, nowadays you might as well get a whole virtual or even
> a dedicated bare metal server to play with, from Hetzner, Online,
> OVH/Kimsufi et al (I maintain a list at http://dedi.su/ ), and run an
> actual qmail on it, or even OpenSMTPD, as you see fit.

Give us a commercial break warning ahead next time.  It's good to know
you've shopped around for your host, hosting beginners love that info.

> Otherwise, what is it that we are missing from your requirements that
> makes this a worthwhile discussion for misc@openbsd.org?

There are two types of advertisers, those who deal with their own poo
and those who play with other people's.

Real men don't need no shortening service, their sites are preserved
and kept long after they're gone.  Applies to mail archives too.

Now we'd appreciate some useful information on OpenSMTPD for restoring
peace in our disturbed sense of being thrown at marketing sticky stuff.

Re: OT: Looking for email host with qmail like minus-addressing for custom domain

[Andy Bradford]

Thus said Gilles Chehade on Thu, 03 Mar 2016 22:48:57 +0100:

> > I don't see this as necessarily an argument for or against - vs +
> > 
> 
> too bad, it means my friend jean-pierre  will not be able to be hosted
> by you if you already host my other friend jean ;-)

This is  true, obviously. If one  user has jean and  jean-* then clearly
jean-pierre@  is already  taken. That  doesn't  mean I  cannt host  your
friend jean-pierre, it just means  he cannot have jean-pierre@, maybe he
will settle for  jean_pierre@ or jean+pierre@, or  any other combination
that suits him and allowed by the hosting software/MTA.

Given the  predominence of @gmail.com  email addresses, clearly  this is
not a problem for  the majority of people in the  email world. There can
only  ever be  one  jean-pie...@gmail.com, right?  Which  means if  your
friend jean-pierre has jean-pie...@gmail.com, then necessarily my friend
jean-pierre cannot also have jean-pie...@gmail.com. Bummer.

Andy
-- 
TAI64 timestamp: 400056d916f3

Re: OT: Looking for email host with qmail like minus-addressing for custom domain

[Andy Bradford]

Thus said "Constantine A. Murenin" on Thu, 03 Mar 2016 15:09:46 -0600:

> > The MTA will decide who will get foo-bar@.
>
> How? A /dev/mind RPC? :-)

Because the MTA is configured to handle it? :-)

> And what happens if a "conflicting" user gets created after a mail was
> sent, but before it was delivered? "This behaviour is undefined"?

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by conflicting...

The MTA,  again, will already be  configured to deal with  addresses and
mapping them  to users. And the  behavior is not undefined.  If an email
address exists  and the MTA  knows about the  email address it  will get
delivered if  the username configured to  receive it exists. If  the MTA
knows about it, but the OS doesn't  know about it, the MTA will queue it
up until the local user who is supposed to receive it is created. If the
username exists  and the MTA doesn't  have an email address  for it, the
email will bounce.

My MTA  can handle both +  and - for  email addresses and can  map email
addresses to local users in any fashion that the OS supports.

For example,  let's assume  I have  a local  user named  foo and  I have
assigned an email address foo@ and  I have configured that email address
to accept  wildcard extensions (e.g.  foo-*@ gets delivered  to username
test). Then, I create a local  user named foo-bar. Clearly now, I cannot
give the  local username foo-bar  an email address of  foo-bar@ because,
well,  that  is already  superceded  by  test's  wildcard claim  on  the
address. Assuming that I had to  give the user that username, what email
address could I give him? Anything I want,  as long as it is not part of
foo-*@

I have the following mapping which permits username foo to receive email
for foo@, foo-*@, and foo+*@, and another mapping which permits username
foo-bar to receive email for foo_bar@ and foo_bar-*@:

=foo:foo:1004:1004:/home/foo:-::
+foo-:foo:1004:1004:/home/foo:-::
+foo+:foo:1004:1004:/home/foo:-::
=foo_bar:foo-bar:1003:1003:/home/foo-bar:-::
+foo_bar:foo-bar:1003:1003:/home/foo-bar:-::

Is this  sensible to  do? Who knows,  but the point  is, just  because -
exists in usernames  doesn't necessarily mean that it  shouldn't be used
in email  extensions. Must there  be a one-to-one mapping  between email
addresses and  local usernames? In  many systems  it is typical  for the
email address to not even remotely resemble a local username.

Thanks,

Andy
-- 
TAI64 timestamp: 400056d912b2

Re: OT: Looking for email host with qmail like minus-addressing for custom domain

[Gilles Chehade]

On Thu, Mar 03, 2016 at 02:02:22PM -0600, Claus wrote:
> On 3/3/2016 3:14 AM, Gilles Chehade wrote:
> >On Thu, Mar 03, 2016 at 01:54:16AM +0100, ropers wrote:
> >Won't question your need however this + vs - thing has come up often and
> >I'd like to stress out that even though both - and + are valid, use of -
> >introduces ambiguity given that - is allowed in usernames:
> >
> > $ doas useradd -m foo
> > $ doas useradd -m foo-bar
> >
> >Who should get mail for foo-bar@ ?
> >
> >This just doesn't happen with + because:
> >
> >$ doas useradd -m bar
> >$ doas useradd -m bar+baz
> >useradd: `bar+baz' is not a valid login name
> >$
> 
> Seriously, do email hosting providers create local accounts for their users?
> I don't have a clue but I highly doubt it due the need to host multiple
> domains.
> 

My comment wasn't focused on email providers but on email in general ;-)

The default setup for all MTA's that I know of is to map user part of an
email address to a system username. That's been the case since the first
day I got interested in hosting (pre 2k) and is still the case today. It
was the case for my .edu when I was a student & it was the case for many
of the places I worked for since then.


> The ambiguity is there unless the domain owner doesn't allow dashes in
> account names, and I can afford to make that rule for my domain.  Of course
> that doesn't help me if no one supports that. :(
> 

Indeed, but the fact no one supports that should also hint you that this
is going against ... what everyone else does, so it's quite expected you
are going to be in a painful journey ;)


-- 
Gilles Chehade

https://www.poolp.org  @poolpOrg

Re: OT: Looking for email host with qmail like minus-addressing for custom domain

[Gilles Chehade]

On Thu, Mar 03, 2016 at 01:39:54PM -0700, Andy Bradford wrote:
> Thus said Gilles Chehade on Thu, 03 Mar 2016 10:14:48 +0100:
> 
> > Who should get mail for foo-bar@ ?
> 
> The MTA will decide who will get foo-bar@.
> 

How ?


> > This just doesn't happen with + because:
> 
> It also doesn't happen with an MTA that can figure these things out.
>

How ?


> I don't see this as necessarily an argument for or against - vs +
> 

too bad, it means my friend jean-pierre will not be able to be hosted by
you if you already host my other friend jean ;-)


-- 
Gilles Chehade

https://www.poolp.org  @poolpOrg

Re: OT: Looking for email host with qmail like minus-addressing for custom domain

[Constantine A. Murenin]

On 2 March 2016 at 14:19, Claus Niesen  wrote:
> Sorry for the off topic question but I'm hoping that maybe some of your
> know of or work for an email hosting provider that provides minus/hyphen
> ("-") addressing with custom domain.  All I can find are provider that
> offer plus addressing, which makes it hard for a smooth transition since
> I'm using minus addressing extensively.
>
> I used to run my own at home mailserver (openbsd + qmail) .  Since I no
> longer have a static IP, I switched to an email provider that supports
> minus addressing but operates in the dark ages, especially in regards to
> security updates.  Needless to say I need a better host.  I'd rather not
> host my own mailserver but so far haven't been able to find an
> alternative.
>
> Your suggestions are greatly appreciated.  Feel free to contact me off
> list.
> Thanks,
> Claus
>
> Specific requirements:
> - allows usage of custom domain
> - allows multiple email accounts
> - qmail style '-' addressing
> - some kind of spam filtering (gray-listing & bayes filter)
> - alias
> - imap
> - reliable and secure

So, how much are you willing to pay for this service?

Static IP costs on a residential connection usually start at 5 USD/mo
in the US.  Presumably, that's also how much you'd be willing to pay
for a "reliable and secure"  email service with a custom domain and
qmail-style addressing.  (That's not even considering any extra you'd
have to pay for a provider specifically targeting the niche of serving
it OpenBSD-style.)

At this price, nowadays you might as well get a whole virtual or even
a dedicated bare metal server to play with, from Hetzner, Online,
OVH/Kimsufi et al (I maintain a list at http://dedi.su/ ), and run an
actual qmail on it, or even OpenSMTPD, as you see fit.  (OpenBSD works
great on most of these hosts, even if it's not specifically advertised
as supported.)

Otherwise, what is it that we are missing from your requirements that
makes this a worthwhile discussion for misc@openbsd.org?

C.

Re: OT: Looking for email host with qmail like minus-addressing for custom domain

[Constantine A. Murenin]

On 3 March 2016 at 14:39, Andy Bradford  wrote:
> Thus said Gilles Chehade on Thu, 03 Mar 2016 10:14:48 +0100:
>
>> Who should get mail for foo-bar@ ?
>
> The MTA will decide who will get foo-bar@.

How?  A /dev/mind RPC? :-)

>> This just doesn't happen with + because:
>
> It also doesn't happen with an MTA that can figure these things out.

So, how would it figure it out?

And what happens if a "conflicting" user gets created after a mail was
sent, but before it was delivered?  "This behaviour is undefined"?

C.

Re: OT: Looking for email host with qmail like minus-addressing for custom domain

[Andy Bradford]

Thus said Gilles Chehade on Thu, 03 Mar 2016 10:14:48 +0100:

> Who should get mail for foo-bar@ ?

The MTA will decide who will get foo-bar@.

> This just doesn't happen with + because:

It also doesn't happen with an MTA that can figure these things out.

I don't see this as necessarily an argument for or against - vs +

Andy
-- 
TAI64 timestamp: 400056d8a13e

Re: OT: Looking for email host with qmail like minus-addressing for custom domain

[Claus]

On 3/3/2016 3:14 AM, Gilles Chehade wrote:

On Thu, Mar 03, 2016 at 01:54:16AM +0100, ropers wrote:
Won't question your need however this + vs - thing has come up often and
I'd like to stress out that even though both - and + are valid, use of -
introduces ambiguity given that - is allowed in usernames:

 $ doas useradd -m foo
 $ doas useradd -m foo-bar

Who should get mail for foo-bar@ ?

This just doesn't happen with + because:

$ doas useradd -m bar
$ doas useradd -m bar+baz
useradd: `bar+baz' is not a valid login name
$


Seriously, do email hosting providers create local accounts for their 
users?  I don't have a clue but I highly doubt it due the need to host 
multiple domains.


The ambiguity is there unless the domain owner doesn't allow dashes in 
account names, and I can afford to make that rule for my domain.  Of 
course that doesn't help me if no one supports that. :(


  Claus

Re: OT: Looking for email host with qmail like minus-addressing for custom domain

[ropers]

On 3 March 2016 at 10:14, Gilles Chehade  wrote:

>
> - is allowed in usernames:
>
> $ doas useradd -m foo
> $ doas useradd -m foo-bar
>
> Who should get mail for foo-bar@ ?
>
> This just doesn't happen with + because:
>
> $ doas useradd -m bar
> $ doas useradd -m bar+baz
> useradd: `bar+baz' is not a valid login name
>

Oh. Thank you. :) I did not know that.

Re: OT: Looking for email host with qmail like minus-addressing for custom domain

[Gilles Chehade]

On Thu, Mar 03, 2016 at 01:54:16AM +0100, ropers wrote:
> On 2 March 2016 at 23:59, Jason Barbier  wrote:
> 
> > [You're] probably going to have to suck it up at some point and use +
> > [delimiters] like most people have moved to doing since according to the
> > RFC - is a valid email address char.
> >
> 
> So is +.
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3696#section-3
> - is not any more legal than +, just maybe more common, and you're still
> more likely to encounter non-RFC compliant implementations that don't deal
> with plus correctly, especially in web form email "verification" scripts --
> but many of those suck monkey balls anyway.
> 

Won't question your need however this + vs - thing has come up often and
I'd like to stress out that even though both - and + are valid, use of -
introduces ambiguity given that - is allowed in usernames:

$ doas useradd -m foo
$ doas useradd -m foo-bar

Who should get mail for foo-bar@ ?

This just doesn't happen with + because:

$ doas useradd -m bar
$ doas useradd -m bar+baz
useradd: `bar+baz' is not a valid login name
$

Now as far as your issue is concerned, what you could do if you can't go
without - is to take an account anywhere that supports + then just setup
a simple mail forwarder at a vps host to rewrite - to +, this way you'll
be able to transition without being limited in hosting choices.

just my opinion ;)

-- 
Gilles Chehade

https://www.poolp.org  @poolpOrg

Re: OT: Looking for email host with qmail like minus-addressing for custom domain

[ropers]

On 2 March 2016 at 23:59, Jason Barbier  wrote:

> [You're] probably going to have to suck it up at some point and use +
> [delimiters] like most people have moved to doing since according to the
> RFC - is a valid email address char.
>

So is +.
http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3696#section-3
- is not any more legal than +, just maybe more common, and you're still
more likely to encounter non-RFC compliant implementations that don't deal
with plus correctly, especially in web form email "verification" scripts --
but many of those suck monkey balls anyway.

Re: OT: Looking for email host with qmail like minus-addressing for custom domain

[Jason Barbier]

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016, at 12:19 PM, Claus Niesen wrote:
> Sorry for the off topic question but I'm hoping that maybe some of your
> know of or work for an email hosting provider that provides minus/hyphen
> ("-") addressing with custom domain.  All I can find are provider that
> offer plus addressing, which makes it hard for a smooth transition since
> I'm using minus addressing extensively. 
> 
> I used to run my own at home mailserver (openbsd + qmail) .  Since I no
> longer have a static IP, I switched to an email provider that supports
> minus addressing but operates in the dark ages, especially in regards to
> security updates.  Needless to say I need a better host.  I'd rather not
> host my own mailserver but so far haven't been able to find an
> alternative.
> 
> Your suggestions are greatly appreciated.  Feel free to contact me off
> list.
> Thanks,
> Claus
> 
> Specific requirements:
> - allows usage of custom domain
> - allows multiple email accounts
> - qmail style '-' addressing
> - some kind of spam filtering (gray-listing & bayes filter)
> - alias
> - imap
> - reliable and secure
> 

Your probably going to have to suck it up at some point and use +
delmiters like most people have moved to doing since according to the
RFC - is a valid email address char. But with that rant out of the way
honestly if you are not opposed to running your own server DigitalOcean
is cheap, reliable, and with some work you can have openbsd in any
config you see fit.

-- 
Jason Barbier | E: jab...@serversave.us
GPG Key-ID: B5F75B47(http://kusuriya.devio.us/pubkey.asc)

OT: Looking for email host with qmail like minus-addressing for custom domain

[Claus Niesen]

Sorry for the off topic question but I'm hoping that maybe some of your
know of or work for an email hosting provider that provides minus/hyphen
("-") addressing with custom domain.  All I can find are provider that
offer plus addressing, which makes it hard for a smooth transition since
I'm using minus addressing extensively. 

I used to run my own at home mailserver (openbsd + qmail) .  Since I no
longer have a static IP, I switched to an email provider that supports
minus addressing but operates in the dark ages, especially in regards to
security updates.  Needless to say I need a better host.  I'd rather not
host my own mailserver but so far haven't been able to find an
alternative.

Your suggestions are greatly appreciated.  Feel free to contact me off
list.
Thanks,
Claus

Specific requirements:
- allows usage of custom domain
- allows multiple email accounts
- qmail style '-' addressing
- some kind of spam filtering (gray-listing & bayes filter)
- alias
- imap
- reliable and secure