Re: using torrents for packages?
Isn`t it be possible to switch to torrents to install packages? Are you talking about a torrent for each package? No thanks. Grab them while you can, honey ;-) http://charybdis.xenon-nrw.net/~josen/OpenBSD_39_amd64_torrent/ This thread is the funniest and most useless I ever saw on misc. Who would really want to distribute OpenBSD by torrent? For each single package... LOL -Falk
Re: using torrents for packages?
jared and daniel, What advantages does Ttorent has: 1. Torrent itself is a protocl. It should be possible to implement it even in Perl 2. In Case of Universities wich have maybe NO mirror: Some universitives have a VERY liberal administration. In Fact that means that every part of the univeristy (math department, computer science, languages, history and co) does administrate it`s OWN LAN by itself. There`s no rule that e.g. a small Network must be managed by an Administrator. So every doctor who`s responsiable for a little Lan can do what he thinks is right. Some universities have Proxies. But these Proxies do mostly NOT buffer such large files. And some even do not download all the stuff used int he university and store it at a central Server (in their Lan). This leads to multiple downloads and so they need to download e.g. packages and co more then once. With torrent they would be forced to use also the uploads from their Lan if somebody downloads e.g. the Install-Sets for Sparc and another department downloads it too. This would reduce the load of the Servers. 2. Small Files and Big files I did never thought about forcing users to share. They should simply just share as long as they download. After the packet was downloaded they stop sharing. What does this mean: Servers may have to download small files completly to a client. There4s no differente to FTP here. But downloading BIG-Files is different. There the download takes much longer and so the client are able to upload also much longer. 3. Security You trust e.g. Beck because he`s known. OpenBSD wont change the compression-algorithm but imported gzsig to the Base-System. Why not simply using gzsig to SIGN the files. Then it wont matter who provides the data because the data was signed and the Port-System would simply just to maybe look for new Keys (if Theo changes the SSH-key some day). It is importent to understand that I DON`T talk about a normal BT-Client wich simply seeds all the day long until it get killed. The Client may seed as LONG as it downloads. After the download finished it stops. Where is the advantage: Even a Client just seeds 1/8 of the original file this means the Server has 1/8 less traffic. The more Servers share Seeding == the more synergy-effect you get. So it wont happen that some Servers may have a lot more traffic then others just because they`re maybe the only one in e.g. romania (just as example) or because they`re maybe prefered by a lot more users. During the upload of the Clients during downloading and during the seeding or maybe more then just ONE Server the bandwith needed to transfere filles gets down (for everybody because it`s imply shared by more then one Box). Sure FTP and HTTP works but the bandwith has to be paid by somebody. It is nice that some peoples or companies/universities do support OpenBSD but why not inventing a System wich may reduce even their coasts. That`s the whole Idea behind my post. Nohhing more or less. it was not because I love Torrents that much but indeed it seams to be the best protocol for this purpose. It has also already an advantage where e.g. 2 Administrators (lets say one in USA and one in Europe) of the same company may do a Firewall update or install an openBSD-Box. They don4t have to knwo that the other Admins is doing also e.g. an Update in the weekly update-circle because Torrent-Would notice it and may send data about e.g. the VPN-Tunnel (so the LAN) to the other guy. This example assumes that BT-Traffic isn`t blocked in the LAN but for Universities wich e.g. use NAT or simply don`t use Proxy-Servers this would already reduce the load effectivly. I don`t think the Servers can save 50% of the Traffic but 10-30 percent seams to be realistic. As mentioned above the real advantage would appear if a Client installs a big package. I even bet a lot peoples simply try out OpenBSD after reading e.g. an article (like on kerneltrap). So imagine just 100 would download also the ports.tar.gz and the source-code... The current system works but it isn`t as effective it may could be. And I wanted to use Torrents today to get the AMD-Packages but as I re-visited the Torrent-Website not even the Server 8Tracker) itself shared the packages. This means, if I would work for a company and would be a leats a littlebit clever, I would download all binary packages to a local Server to spread them in the LAN (if needed). This means 2.x Gb traffic for ONE Server. If there would eb ANY organized Torrent-Network the load of the Server would be maybe just 1.8GB because somebody else downloads the packages too and would upload in the Same time. That`s the whole idea... and not powering Python (even the License seams to be BSD-like and smaler *compared to Perl*). Kind regards, Sebastian
using torrents for packages?
As I saw the website providing torrents for 3.9 I just thought about somethign for packages. Isn`t it be possible to switch to torrents to install packages? In fact there many mirrors and if they all would maybe use torrent the synergy-effect would be great. With the trackerless-torrents the Servers don`t even need to set up an additinal Daemon (tracker). It may would make more sense for the install sets because there are far more packages but the synergy-effect would remain. I think http://openbsd.somedomain.net/ proofs this concept right. What`s your oppinion about this?! This would reduce the load of the (Mirror-)Servers and peoples who`ve a limited connection (e.g. traffic limit or who`ve to pay for each MB) could still use FTP/http. This would be also true for peoples who`re behind a restrictive Firewall (even this limits just the Upload) Kind regards, Sebastian
Re: using torrents for packages?
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Well I4m interested in YOUR ubersystem to reduce the load... Are you a solution in search of a problem, right now? DS
Re: using torrents for packages?
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 01, 2006 3:47 PM To: Marco Peereboom Cc: misc@openbsd.org Subject: Re: using torrents for packages? Well I4m interested in YOUR ubersystem to reduce the load... Buy the CDs, no load on the ftp servers at all.
Re: using torrents for packages?
Some mirros simply miss some install-Sets and I don4t mean the x* stuff. Some mirros didn`t updated yet (well I guess they`ll do it later). Some mirrors have parts of the Source and some have the Source but not the ports.tar.gz. And mostly no mirror has packages. May be I am missing something, but I thought the project have/had plenty of mirrors to go around. Yeap today and for the next few days may be to busy as everyone is getting to them to get their files instead of may be buying CD's, but other then that, I really thought that capacity, even for packages was plenty. Is there really a need for more? And I am not talking about Torrents, as I prefer getting my data from a trusted source thank you.
Re: using torrents for packages?
On Mon, May 01, 2006 at 03:58:57PM -0400, Wade, Daniel wrote: Buy the CDs, no load on the ftp servers at all. As soon as you figure out how to get 3G of packages for i386 alone onto a CD... -- David Terrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] ((meatspace)) http://meat.net/
Re: using torrents for packages?
May be I am missing something, but I thought the project have/had plenty of mirrors to go around. Yeap today and for the next few days may be to busy as everyone is getting to them to get their files instead of may be buying CD's, but other then that, I really thought that capacity, even for packages was plenty. Is there really a need for more? And I am not talking about Torrents, as I prefer getting my data from a trusted source thank you. You may wanna request some changes? F.e. dropping gzsig I wonder why this tool got into the base if it`s not being used Well you`ve to download a signed *.tgz completly before you could check it but you would download a currupt/modified tar.gz also completly before you`ll notice it Buy more CD-Sets - Show me a CD-Set containing all Packages... gzsig + torrent = maybe a solution for the install sets and/or packages maybe... Kind regards, Sebastian
Re: using torrents for packages?
On Mon, 01 May 2006 16:08:11 -0400 Daniel Ouellet [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And I am not talking about Torrents, as I prefer getting my data from a trusted source thank you. As irrelivant as this discussion is, why do people make comments like this? What makes downloading through http or ftp so magically secure? Bittorrent checks the checksum provided by the tracker server. So you have to trust you are getting the right data from an http or ftp server, or you have to trust that you are getting the right data from a tracker server. What's the difference? Adam
Re: using torrents for packages?
On Mon, May 01, 2006 at 09:46:51PM +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well I4m interested in YOUR ubersystem to reduce the load... I selected a mirror that's local and up to date and set PKG_PATH to use it. If the packages aren't there I'll select another mirror -or- I'll roll my own. There I have revealed my uber process. This happens very infrequently because I am not as 1337 as most gentoo users. When I install a box I actually use instead of updating it all day long. So where exactly did you explained why using the upload-capacity from e.g. the community (using torrent) to reduce the load of the servers is a bad idea? I must have missed it I don4t say Lets kill ftp, http and co.. I just ask you why you why using torrents to reduce the load of the Servers is such a bad idea in your oppinion. You simply have no synergy effect with ftp or http. No matter how many proxies/mirrors you`ve. You wanna download the ports? Well you can get them via FTP and the neat FTP-Server has some MB traffic. Or you could use torrent and get it from the same Server a) completly if there no other seeders or b) just a part if there other seeders. That`s called synergy.. you may know this word. It`s as trustfull as using binary packages/install-sets from a mirror. And if you distrust P2P-Technologies start using gzsig... Kind regards, Sebastian
Re: using torrents for packages?
On Mon, May 01, 2006 at 02:14:43PM -0700, Michael Scheliga wrote: The torrent idea has been beaten to death during previous releases. If people are so hot for torrents, then why hasn't someone made one? I don't recall every hearing that a mirror would be delisted if they offered torrents. So one of you out there wanting torrents set up a mirror and get torrents going. Or is this just a case of someone wanting someone *else* to do something? -- Darrin Chandler| Phoenix BSD Users Group [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://bsd.phoenix.az.us/ http://www.stilyagin.com/ |
Re: using torrents for packages?
On 5/1/06, Darrin Chandler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If people are so hot for torrents, then why hasn't someone made one? I don't recall every hearing that a mirror would be delisted if they offered torrents. So one of you out there wanting torrents set up a mirror and get torrents going. don't worry, they're coming. i wasn't sure which packages people would want, so i started one seed for each combination. any minute now and i'll be done uploading all 2194807090497090655450114704370049678944665985797805950372769368159998172422787828535257591527477608716372442180425204526459346318686461 4843428303132546009093554507687285921303311309734218027621519556914828837855975339158139519461319259258584743367981421875462767533212773 28358615438202398254683140496398307692071016118211017521414400742447285556862317394789544566903565524780962246880881852045704392065095234597328925723779141443473551361399544717611898064714813006917636 9117525668336549473059320155355919095159407472865798332097949126328312176991466854757339028392311761584626729455246129696273879236135472 7621319580998127008384329465263011416106985637932809835663837045585922497642742092049732285251927611662523766179845320518199621517260633 4623313397860096097967329881959103106586381056008206614208354797548377368337380343369797445979512824633140976649150429713069662937100641114437721375838643217816671210682744684572173874753152483327 files. i'll start tomorrow on amd64.
Re: using torrents for packages?
Darrin Chandler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If people are so hot for torrents, then why hasn't someone made one? But Andrew Fresh has. http://openbsd.somedomain.net/ -- Christian naddy Weisgerber [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: using torrents for packages?
On Mon, May 01, 2006 at 03:39:02PM -0700, Ted Unangst wrote: don't worry, they're coming. i wasn't sure which packages people would want, so i started one seed for each combination. any minute now and i'll be done uploading all 2194807090497090655450114704370049678944665985797805950372769368159998172422787828535257591527477608716372442180425204526459346318686461 4843428303132546009093554507687285921303311309734218027621519556914828837855975339158139519461319259258584743367981421875462767533212773 28358615438202398254683140496398307692071016118211017521414400742447285556862317394789544566903565524780962246880881852045704392065095234597328925723779141443473551361399544717611898064714813006917636 9117525668336549473059320155355919095159407472865798332097949126328312176991466854757339028392311761584626729455246129696273879236135472 7621319580998127008384329465263011416106985637932809835663837045585922497642742092049732285251927611662523766179845320518199621517260633 4623313397860096097967329881959103106586381056008206614208354797548377368337380343369797445979512824633140976649150429713069662937100641114437721375838643217816671210682744684572173874753152483327 files. i'll start tomorrow on amd64. K I C K A S S ! ! ! Er, would you mind doing i386, then sparc64, *then* amd64? Please? Oh, wait... I have the CDs here. Nevermind. -- Darrin Chandler| Phoenix BSD Users Group [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://bsd.phoenix.az.us/ http://www.stilyagin.com/ |
Re: using torrents for packages?
On Mon, May 01, 2006 at 10:42:32PM +, Christian Weisgerber wrote: Darrin Chandler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If people are so hot for torrents, then why hasn't someone made one? But Andrew Fresh has. http://openbsd.somedomain.net/ Oh, yeah. Right you are. Then why are we having this discussion? You only need one tracker. Everyone remember to be good netizens and leave your client active to keep it seeded! -- Darrin Chandler| Phoenix BSD Users Group [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://bsd.phoenix.az.us/ http://www.stilyagin.com/ |
Re: using torrents for packages?
On 5/1/06, Darrin Chandler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, May 01, 2006 at 03:39:02PM -0700, Ted Unangst wrote: don't worry, they're coming. i wasn't sure which packages people would want, so i started one seed for each combination. any minute now and i'll be done uploading all 2194807090497090655450114704370049678944665985797805950372769368159998172422787828535257591527477608716372442180425204526459346318686461 4843428303132546009093554507687285921303311309734218027621519556914828837855975339158139519461319259258584743367981421875462767533212773 28358615438202398254683140496398307692071016118211017521414400742447285556862317394789544566903565524780962246880881852045704392065095234597328925723779141443473551361399544717611898064714813006917636 9117525668336549473059320155355919095159407472865798332097949126328312176991466854757339028392311761584626729455246129696273879236135472 7621319580998127008384329465263011416106985637932809835663837045585922497642742092049732285251927611662523766179845320518199621517260633 4623313397860096097967329881959103106586381056008206614208354797548377368337380343369797445979512824633140976649150429713069662937100641114437721375838643217816671210682744684572173874753152483327 files. i'll start tomorrow on amd64. K I C K A S S ! ! ! Right on, the developers rox0r Er, would you mind doing i386, then sparc64, *then* amd64? Please? Look how reponsive Ted was. I'm sure he'll cater to your needs. Wait, I want PPC first! Greg
Re: using torrents for packages?
On 5/1/06, Darrin Chandler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, May 01, 2006 at 10:42:32PM +, Christian Weisgerber wrote: Darrin Chandler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If people are so hot for torrents, then why hasn't someone made one? But Andrew Fresh has. http://openbsd.somedomain.net/ Oh, yeah. Right you are. Then why are we having this discussion? You only need one tracker. Everyone remember to be good netizens and leave your client active to keep it seeded! We're here because Sebastian appears to want the OpenBSD team to provide an official tracker for official package distribution. Or maybe he didn't see that Andrew Fresh is working on packages for 3.9. Or maybe he just likes to whine about slow FTP and slow compression utilities. Greg
Re: using torrents for packages?
* Ted Unangst [EMAIL PROTECTED] [060501 18:27]: On 5/1/06, Greg Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 5/1/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Isn`t it be possible to switch to torrents to install packages? Are you talking about a torrent for each package? No thanks. Are you talking about a torrent including all packages? No thanks. duh, we're going to create one torrent for every combination of packages. I do hope that's for each architecture too. :-)~ Jim
Re: using torrents for packages?
On 5/1/06, Greg Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 5/1/06, Darrin Chandler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, May 01, 2006 at 10:42:32PM +, Christian Weisgerber wrote: Darrin Chandler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If people are so hot for torrents, then why hasn't someone made one? But Andrew Fresh has. http://openbsd.somedomain.net/ Oh, yeah. Right you are. Then why are we having this discussion? You only need one tracker. Everyone remember to be good netizens and leave your client active to keep it seeded! We're here because Sebastian appears to want the OpenBSD team to provide an official tracker for official package distribution. Or maybe he didn't see that Andrew Fresh is working on packages for 3.9. Or maybe he just likes to whine about slow FTP and slow compression utilities. Greg Or maybe he can't scrape up $50 for the CDs.
Re: using torrents for packages?
On 5/1/06, Samurai Chef [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 5/1/06, Greg Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 5/1/06, Darrin Chandler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, May 01, 2006 at 10:42:32PM +, Christian Weisgerber wrote: Darrin Chandler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If people are so hot for torrents, then why hasn't someone made one? But Andrew Fresh has. http://openbsd.somedomain.net/ Oh, yeah. Right you are. Then why are we having this discussion? You only need one tracker. Everyone remember to be good netizens and leave your client active to keep it seeded! We're here because Sebastian appears to want the OpenBSD team to provide an official tracker for official package distribution. Or maybe he didn't see that Andrew Fresh is working on packages for 3.9. Or maybe he just likes to whine about slow FTP and slow compression utilities. Greg Or maybe he can't scrape up $50 for the CDs. So he can't do FTP. He can't buy the CDs. He can't do the torrents from http://openbsd.somedomain.net/. I guess he's screwed then and we'll no longer be hearing from him! Greg
Re: using torrents for packages?
Greg Thomas.. you may need some glasses http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=openbsd-miscm=114648851725516w=2 Hint: Take a look at the date and the time... Btw: I talked about synergy-effects wich would be provide an advantage for all Servers. If you don`t know what synergy is and if that`s the reason why you can`t stop bitching you may wanna visit the school again This topic is as dead as your mind... Kind regards, Sebastian
Re: using torrents for packages?
On 5/1/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Greg Thomas.. you may need some glasses http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=openbsd-miscm=114648851725516w=2 Hint: Take a look at the date and the time... Btw: I talked about synergy-effects wich would be provide an advantage for all Servers. If you don`t know what synergy is and if that`s the reason why you can`t stop bitching you may wanna visit the school again Dude, This is openbsd. It's a put up or shut up world. If you want torrents of packages, put it up. If you're not willing to do it, but want to fly a flag up and see if someone else will do it, go ahead, but if the flag gets shot, just withdraw it. Right now, it seems that none of the developers are willing to spend time or effort on it. It also appears that each time someone brings it up, the developers are not willing to do it. So, unless you want to do it, please drop it. Thanx.
Re: using torrents for packages?
Adam wrote: On Mon, 01 May 2006 16:08:11 -0400 Daniel Ouellet [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And I am not talking about Torrents, as I prefer getting my data from a trusted source thank you. As irrelivant as this discussion is, why do people make comments like this? What makes downloading through http or ftp so magically secure? Bittorrent checks the checksum provided by the tracker server. So you have to trust you are getting the right data from an http or ftp server, or you have to trust that you are getting the right data from a tracker server. What's the difference? I don't want to turn this into a debate. I didn't imply that ftp or http was more secure then Bittorrent, but it provide the checksum as well as the files from the same source. But getting my files from example: [EMAIL PROTECTED]:/cvs or [EMAIL PROTECTED]:/cvs where Maintained by Todd Miller. or from [EMAIL PROTECTED]:/cvs Maintained by Bob Beck or [EMAIL PROTECTED]:/cvs Maintained by Michael Shalayeff. just to take a few only and that doesn't put a judgment on the other maintainers of other source, is more likely to be more secure and more trusted with many more eyeballs looking at it then a bittorrent from someone that I don't know or may not have been on the lists for many years contributing and helping others as well with track records coming from long ago. It was a simple statement on the likely hood to make more trusted source file form well known source maintain by trusted people known to the project. After all they have cvs rights, so that must mean something no? If a dev with cvs right setup a bittorrent for distributions, or someone with many years of track records on the lists setup that, then I am more likely to trust it, or not. I am not saying anything bad about anyone that may want to help with bittorrent, if you took it as an insult, then my apology for that. Sure wasn't my intentions here. If the pkg_add for example was always comparing the checksum of any download source with a reference at checksum.openbsd.org for example via ssh, or what not, then I would say, yes, we can trust any download source as when it take it, it will automatically kill it if it is not right. But it is not how it is really. Now, I don't need the answer to this and I don't want to extend this more either. so I will stop here, no more reply either on the subject, but may be a user may check the checksum of the files when download with the listed one, but how many actually go check the main site as well to get the checksum from that site. I bet you many just use pkg_add and thing it does check the checksum by itself and if you have something on bittorrent that is tinted, but the checksum actually reflect the file, even if it doesn't reflect the main site, I would be curious to know how long this would go before it's been notice. Anyway, sorry for my statement in the first post. I main a mistake to express it there and it shadow the real question that was if there was a need for more capacity for packages for example. I was offering that, but it got miss receive and my apology for that. In the end, I conclude that there isn't any need for more capacity as it wasn't express as been needed. Sorry for the noise. Daniel
Re: using torrents for packages?
On Tue, May 02, 2006 at 03:57:42AM +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Btw: I talked about synergy-effects wich would be provide an advantage for all Servers. If you don`t know what synergy is and if that`s the reason why you can`t stop bitching you may wanna visit the school again This topic is as dead as your mind... hmm. don't get me wrong; i enjoy being able to use my upstream to give more than i get with torrents, but i don't believe: $ sudo pkg_add calc-2.11.7 calc-2.11.7|connecting to tracker calc-2.11.7|torrenting calc-2.11.7|download complete. seeding. ^Z to background ^C to cancel makes much sense. i reread the OP to make sure i was reading the original question right, and there is mention that it might make more sense for the install sets than for packages, but the original topic is for packages; anyone around since this time last year remembers andrew fresh's post up about the torrents he's seeding, which already have $(uname -r).$(uname -m).packages.torrent; so i imagine the original question has to do primarily with individual packages... a couple of things spring to mind: A) python would have to be in base then. the license seems to my amateur eyes as a BSD license with a tamed-down djb clause #3. perhaps the license excludes it from consideration in base. B) making the ports infrastructure make constructive use of the bittorrent concept might be complicated. some packages are quite small; some packages are quite large. people are going to have to sit around seeding forever for some of them for there to be any difference from just going FTP... do you really think there's a need for an official/integrated torrent mechanism for obsd, given what binaries are actually distrubuted, other than what someone else has already stepped up and provided? Kind regards, Sebastian if those are kind regards, i wonder what lively discussion would be borne of the unkind ones... -- jared [ openbsd 3.9-current GENERIC ( mar 15 ) // i386 ]
Re: using torrents for packages?
On 5/1/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Greg Thomas.. you may need some glasses http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=openbsd-miscm=114648851725516w=2 Hint: Take a look at the date and the time... http://www.bsdforums.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-31242.html What's your point and why are you bothering misc about something that is not going to be handled by the developers and is already being handled by someone else? Greg
Re: using torrents for packages?
On 2-May-06, at 12:21 AM, jared r r spiegel wrote: a couple of things spring to mind: A) python would have to be in base then. the license seems to my amateur eyes as a BSD license with a tamed-down djb clause #3. perhaps the license excludes it from consideration in base. bittorrent is a protocol whose first implementation happened to be in python, nothing more... B) making the ports infrastructure make constructive use of the bittorrent concept might be complicated. some packages are quite small; some packages are quite large. people are going to have to sit around seeding forever for some of them for there to be any difference from just going FTP... Obviously the idea of seeding makes integrating bt with the package tools ridiculous. The only way to start would be to download them by hand (which we can all do now apparently, teh yays!) but that makes dependency management hellish. I guess somebody could hack up a bt client that was dependency aware to use alongside the package tools. But the nearest mirror has always been lightning fast for me, much faster than I expect bt would ever be. Out of the thousands of packages, how many people are really going to leave their machines seeding the particular ones that I want? Jeremy
