Re: [MoLiCo] Fw: Say No to the Islamic Victory Mosque at Ground Zero
Jeremy, Some of the words that I have written may not make sense to you I see. I didn't do a good job of explaining. I agree with you that it is our government also that allows welfare, gifts from the rich, and almost all that you have said in this email. I meant you were liberal in the fact that you are giving. You are conservative as I am on how socialistic our government has become. The Mexicans, those of our government who allow people to sit on their butts by drawing money they do not deserve, always going to war in the name of protection are all a part of the mistakes we have made, or the government has, and their infiltration of our country are all a part of problems facing us. If we are intelligent beings we know where we are and the so called enemy is. Our greatest enemy is greed and desire to control others. Buddah said that and even if he was not a Christian, he is right. He would probably go along with what Jesus said, for he does not contradict him. I have never believed that we should be every where in this world with troops to protect our interests is a good thing. It shows that we too manipulate. I would hope the citizens of this country do not intend to take over any other countries, but we have fought and killed for our interests. I do agree with you most of the time. Let's put it this way. The Muslims like to make us believe that we are not protecting their right to freedom of religion. Let them do it in their country. Why are they building Mosques here in the first place? Why are they in this country at all? Do you not believe that they despise our culture? Why do they put themselves here and why at Ground Zero? Who doesn't really know why? I do not agree with all of anybodies theology or form of government. They are here not to distance themselves from our evil people which they think we are. They are right about a lot of people here. You are right about what we have done wrong. They have taken away our right to follow what Jesus taught. Dust off you feet and go away from evil. Letting evil into our Ground Zero is not doing that. We have some rights here as well. They use every belief we have as freedom of religion against us. I think it is good to always learn and I spend a lot of my day doing just that. Learning about this world is why I came to this world. I have learned just about all I want. Both sides have huge faults. I cannot, however agree with them that they should spy on us, plan among us, pretend Islam is a religion so they can build their Mosques. It is their government. You do know why they build them in other countries, and our country? They are forcing themselves on us. I do not want that, but looks like it has to be whether I like it no not. I agree that you are well read, and know much. I took a test at Burlison's office when he was running for an office and learned that I was closer to the Libertarian beliefs than either democrats or republicans. You are innocent. Your emails say a lot about you so I am assuing from what you say that you and all on this blog are good people. You could be wrong about one idea. If you do not care what the Muslims are doing, I do not rebuke you. I am not worried about what they are doing for my own sake. We should be vigilant for peace and not be drawn into wars. We should know where we stand. Linda Herd From: Jeremy D. Young jeremydyo...@sbcglobal.net To: missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com Sent: Tue, September 14, 2010 9:57:32 AM Subject: Re: [MoLiCo] Fw: Say No to the Islamic Victory Mosque at Ground Zero Always Learning, Jeremy D. Young --- On Mon, 9/13/10, Linda Herd linda.h...@sbcglobal.net wrote: From: Linda Herd linda.h...@sbcglobal.net Subject: Re: [MoLiCo] Fw: Say No to the Islamic Victory Mosque at Ground Zero To: missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com Date: Monday, September 13, 2010, 11:13 PM Jeremy, You are liberal and loving. Funny. I'm a Freedom loving Republican / libertarian. Member of the Campaign for Liberty, the Republican Liberty Caucus, and was an officer of the Springfield Metro Republicans until it dissolved. I work inside the Republican Party, when there are candidates that I mostly agree with. War mongering and changing the world for the better is not a Republican ideal. Going to other nations and making them do things our way is a Progressive Wilsonian idea. We call it Neoconservative now. Endless war and military action all over the globe are incompatible with small government. The state must be a behemoth to continue the type of military entanglement we have all over the world. Loving people also are killed when a religion's holy book dictates that all faithful to it go and and change the world by changing the world to their beliefs and are to do this by any means necessary, killing, deceiving, lying (spelling doesn't look correct) infiltrating, etc. anyone to the Muslim
Re: [MoLiCo] Fw: Say No to the Islamic Victory Mosque at Ground Zero
Jeremy, You are liberal and loving. Loving people also are killed when a religion's holy book dictates that all faithful to it go and and change the world by changing the world to their beliefs and are to do this by any means necessary, killing, deceiving, lying (spelling doesn't look correct) infiltrating, etc. anyone to the Muslim beliefs. You are naive in this instance but you are a good man. I do not hate anyone, but I do hate the beliefs of this book, the Que'ran. They are following it as they did when they defeated the Spaniards and built their lavish mosque, Cordoba in Spain. Their belief is one that is not separate from their beliefs. They and the government is one. It is not separate. What the government does is dictated by the Que'ran. If you do not suspect that the Muslims are using the illegal immigration throuh Obama to help them with their mission, you could be wrong. I do not hate you, I hate the evilness upon us at this time. Do you not see that Obama has hidden the secret of his birth certificate? How about the place where he went to church which taught the same thing that the Que'ran, hate to non-muslims which I am and will not cange my name to a Muslim one like Obama did not change his name to a Christian name. I of course see what you are saying. Not all people are kind like you are. Keep fighting the fight, but I personally think you are on the wrong side. I will not stop arguing with good people who may have the wrong perception of a situation. This seems to me to be the way it is here. Blessings to you and yours, Love, Linda Herd From: Jeremy D. Young jeremydyo...@sbcglobal.net To: missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com Sent: Wed, September 8, 2010 12:47:29 PM Subject: Re: [MoLiCo] Fw: Say No to the Islamic Victory Mosque at Ground Zero Eric, keep fighting the good fight. Our nation is in great peril. The ground swell of freedom loving Americans has been divided and distracted. Millions of Americans were focused on the true enemy of our freedom and Liberty, The State. Now they are distracted, focusing instead on hatred of a people group. Focused on destroying people and nations across the globe. Instead of focusing on our local governments, state governments, and finally federal governments, we're bickering and arguing over the ways in which we will destroy the individual freedoms of a group we choose to hate. It doesn't matter how you justify your hatred, if you ever apply your assumptions about a people group to an individual, you have damaged that person's liberty. Every individual is a king. A king of their own little world. They have the right to do with their bodies, their property, and their minds what they wish. Every other individual has the right to the same, as well as freedom from attack from other individuals. If you cannot stand for the Life, Liberty, and Property of the people that you hate, then you do not deserve your own. In fact, I propose, along with Eric's statements that your efforts to deprive some individual of their Life, Liberty, or Property WITHOUT due process of law will inherently directly affect your ability to withstand the same attacks upon you. Wake up people! Using the force of government against Muslims in any way shape or form opens the door directly for the athiest secular powers to squash Christianity and every other form of Religion. Replace the word Muslim in any statement you make with the word Jew, and take a deep look at what that statement really means. Not the evidence, but the actions you propose we take. What actions do you propose? What would be the consequences of those actions if levied against Jews or Christians? Please, THINK. Put away fear, put away terror, put away emotion. Use the very powerful minds that God gave you. Now replace Muslim with Tea Party. Always Learning, Jeremy D. Young --- On Wed, 9/8/10, Eric Vought evou...@pobox.com wrote: From: Eric Vought evou...@pobox.com Subject: Re: [MoLiCo] Fw: Say No to the Islamic Victory Mosque at Ground Zero To: missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com Date: Wednesday, September 8, 2010, 8:02 AM On Sep 8, 2010, at 7:45 AM, Jerry Blevins wrote: Thank you to Ideology of Islam for this post. Philosopher Karl Popper had these wise words: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed and tolerance with them. ... We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. BS. We are not talking about stopping them from eating babies. We are talking about them building a mosque. If you can show me a Muslim who is raping women or eating babies, then Off with his
Re: [MoLiCo] Fw: Say No to the Islamic Victory Mosque at Ground Zero
On Sep 13, 2010, at 11:13 PM, Linda Herd wrote: Loving people also are killed ... You are naive in this instance but you are a good man. Linda, why assume we do not know this? Why assume it is naiveté as opposed to morality and courage? I do not think that Jeremy or Tom or I are confused about whether bad people exist or whether we might be killed by them. We don't care. Or, more to the point, we are more concerned with how we live than with how we die. Is that not the Messiah's example? If He did not want to be nailed to a tree, He could have avoided it. Do you not believe He could have killed the Pharisees and Pilate if He wished? Was He simply naïve? We KNOW these people may kill us, but it is not right to strike first or without need even if that leads to our deaths. Do you not believe what you believe? Besides, why single out Muslims for this fear? My chance of being murdered by a Christian or atheist is much higher, simply because of the racial/cultural identities of criminals where I live. Specifically fearing Muslims may shorten your life when you fail to recognize other threats. I may go around the farm terrified of copperheads, preemptively slaughtering every snake I see. just to be killed by the lowly paramecium. Sincerely, Eric Vought Faith does not absolve us from trying to understand our world and make moral distinctions with the eyes and brain given us. Religion is as much responsibility as direction: Duty not Distinction. -- This is a Free Speech forum. The owner of this list assumes no responsibility for the intellectual or emotional maturity of its members. If you do not like what is being said here, filter it to trash, ignore it or leave. If you leave, learn how to do this for yourself. If you do not, you will be here forever.
Re: [MoLiCo] Fw: Say No to the Islamic Victory Mosque at Ground Zero
Dear Eric, Their Religion is their Jihad beliefs. They know how we feel and in reference to freedom of religion. They are using it to put their Jihad Government in the midst of us. How can I explain how dangerous and deceitful they are. Their religion is jihad. I cannot accept this, Eric. I will continue agruing, because I feel that the evilness of their government and religion does not come under tolerance for other religions. I am not tolerant of Jihad. I know you are not. Correlate this for yourself. They are to use deceit and use our ideas for them to infiltate us and take us over from within and without. Then you will become Muslim. No way around it. As a Christian I cannot do this. I am so sorry we disagree, but I know that the Missouri Liberty Coalition had studied this. Have you read the Que'ran or the parts that indicate deceit and war to convert and govern all the earth? Philosopher Karl Popper did not know about Jihad apparently. I agree with tolerance for religion more than any body I know. I am tolerant to Athiests. Athiests are not told by their government and/or religion to conquer the whole world by violence and lies and deceit. This is not about freedom of religion and I would hope Mr. Popper could see this. If he is intelligent and knows what Jihad is, I could think he could see a special instance in this matter. I am firm in my tolerance. I am not, however, tolerant of Sharia. Blessings, Linda Herd From: Eric Vought evou...@pobox.com To: missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com Sent: Wed, September 8, 2010 8:34:29 AM Subject: Re: [MoLiCo] Fw: Say No to the Islamic Victory Mosque at Ground Zero On Sep 8, 2010, at 7:45 AM, Jerry Blevins wrote: Thank you to Ideology of Islam for this post. Philosopher Karl Popper had these wise words: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed and tolerance with them. ... We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. Thomas Mann said: Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil. The doctrines of Islam, formalized in the sacred Islamic law of Sharia, are the greatest source of religious bigotry, intolerance, hatred and violence in the world today. Anyone who supports religious freedom and tolerance should be taking a strong stand against Sharia law. Anyone who does not take a strong stand against Sharia law becomes an accessory to Islamic bigotry and intolerance. Ron Silverman, Chapter Leader South Bend, IN ACT! for America E-Mail: act4...@att.net You also have still not answered the most important question. Even, assuming for the sake of argument you were right on all else, How would you change the law to oppose this mosque and not have that law misused against everyone else? Show me *wording* of such a change. How are you going to get around the First Amendment and the common law Right to Contract (and the Due Process clause and the Immunities and Privileges clause...) to prevent someone from building a religious center on private land short conviction for an actual crime? And, if you had a conviction for an actual crime, why would that not suffice in the matter? Your argument is self-conflicting and insupportable EVEN if all the facts you allege are correct. The bare fact is that this mosque construction was *exactly* what the Founders sought to protect at the founding of our nation (yes, there were, in fact, Muslims in the US at the time and certainly Christian sects who were subject to religious intolerance) and was quite clearly the explicit purpose of the 14th Amendment (many ex-slaves were Muslim). The rest of what you accuse Muslims has nothing whatsoever to do with this construction. If any of it were more than vague accusations: if the guy were a criminal, if the money was crooked, if the city council was bribed, if they were training commandos, if he had a direct connection to 9/11, etc., etc., then opposition to the mosque itself would not be necessary, One could simply oppose the crimes. And, if you show me *another* mosque training commandos or stewing children, then that *still* is not enough in this case. Arrest *them*; It is still neither legal nor moral to oppose *this* project or any other religious construction on the basis that you are afraid of an entire, vaguely-defined class of people, just as it is illegal and immoral to shut down all churches because of priest-pedophiles elsewhere. So, let me be blunt for my part: to the extent that any opposition to this construction is not based on a crime in fact, I DO call it bigotry and intolerance. What is more, I
Re: [MoLiCo] Fw: Say No to the Islamic Victory Mosque at Ground Zero
Always Learning, Jeremy D. Young --- On Mon, 9/13/10, Linda Herd linda.h...@sbcglobal.net wrote: From: Linda Herd linda.h...@sbcglobal.net Subject: Re: [MoLiCo] Fw: Say No to the Islamic Victory Mosque at Ground Zero To: missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com Date: Monday, September 13, 2010, 11:13 PM Jeremy, You are liberal and loving. Funny. I'm a Freedom loving Republican / libertarian. Member of the Campaign for Liberty, the Republican Liberty Caucus, and was an officer of the Springfield Metro Republicans until it dissolved. I work inside the Republican Party, when there are candidates that I mostly agree with. War mongering and changing the world for the better is not a Republican ideal. Going to other nations and making them do things our way is a Progressive Wilsonian idea. We call it Neoconservative now. Endless war and military action all over the globe are incompatible with small government. The state must be a behemoth to continue the type of military entanglement we have all over the world. Loving people also are killed when a religion's holy book dictates that all faithful to it go and and change the world by changing the world to their beliefs and are to do this by any means necessary, killing, deceiving, lying (spelling doesn't look correct) infiltrating, etc. anyone to the Muslim beliefs. I'm not in favor of being weak towards real threats by individuals. I'm in favor of eliminating all gun laws and allowing all individuals to exercise their rights to defend their Life, Liberty, and Property against attackers of any type. You are naive in this instance but you are a good man. You don't know much about me. I could be a dirty scumbag. I do not hate anyone, but I do hate the beliefs of this book, the Que'ran. Your hatred of the Quran is irrelevant. They are following it as they did when they defeated the Spaniards and built their lavish mosque, Cordoba in Spain. Our nation will be strong or weak based upon its foundation. If we hold to the Constitution, make it strong once again, and protect the rights of all individuals, then we will stand against any threat. Their belief is one that is not separate from their beliefs. Huh? They and the government is one. Our Government is not one with Islam. It is not separate. What the government does is dictated by the Que'ran. Our Federal Government is bounded by the Constitution. If you do not suspect that the Muslims are using the illegal immigration throuh Obama to help them with their mission, you could be wrong. The fight we must fight is one to end the welfare state. Reduce the power of the Federal Government so that its decisions and foolishness cannot affect us. I do not hate you, I hate the evilness upon us at this time. This is my main point. The Mexicans and the Muslims are not our biggest problem. They are a distraction from the reality of the problem. The real problem is a Federal Government that has no boundaries. We must stand up against the Federal Government and its use of unconstitutional power whether we agree with the ends or not. Encouraging the Federal Government to do anything against Muslims is just as heinous a violation of the Constitution as it would be if they outlawed Christians. Do you not see that Obama has hidden the secret of his birth certificate? Really? Honestly? This is just another fearful distraction from the reality of our problems. When it comes to money, government secrets, war, and torture, George W. Bush and Barack Obama have the same exact policies. How about the place where he went to church which taught the same thing that the Que'ran, hate to non-muslims which I am and will not cange my name to a Muslim one like Obama did not change his name to a Christian name. Yes, but the church he went to was Christian. Are you ready to remove the rights of Christians who go to Black churches and have racist pastors? I of course see what you are saying. Not all people are kind like you are. The law cannot determine a persons kindness or motives based upon anything but their actions. Even their actions must be analyzed by a jury of their peers to determine guilt or innocence. Keep fighting the fight, but I personally think you are on the wrong side. I will not stop arguing with good people who may have the wrong perception of a situation. This seems to me to be the way it is here. I'm on your side if you love your country, and love the foundation that our forefathers created for us. This is the greatest nation on earth, but it will disappear if we continue to allow the Federal Government to overstep the Constitution and our rights as individuals. The welfare and warfare state is speeding us to economic collapse. Like Rome, the barbarians at our gate won't defeat us unless we defeat ourselves from within. Our victory is a victory of the individual. A freedom for one and all that is upheld by the rule of law. Blessings
Re: [MoLiCo] Fw: Say No to the Islamic Victory Mosque at Ground Zero
Eric, keep fighting the good fight. Our nation is in great peril. The ground swell of freedom loving Americans has been divided and distracted. Millions of Americans were focused on the true enemy of our freedom and Liberty, The State. Now they are distracted, focusing instead on hatred of a people group. Focused on destroying people and nations across the globe. Instead of focusing on our local governments, state governments, and finally federal governments, we're bickering and arguing over the ways in which we will destroy the individual freedoms of a group we choose to hate. It doesn't matter how you justify your hatred, if you ever apply your assumptions about a people group to an individual, you have damaged that person's liberty. Every individual is a king. A king of their own little world. They have the right to do with their bodies, their property, and their minds what they wish. Every other individual has the right to the same, as well as freedom from attack from other individuals. If you cannot stand for the Life, Liberty, and Property of the people that you hate, then you do not deserve your own. In fact, I propose, along with Eric's statements that your efforts to deprive some individual of their Life, Liberty, or Property WITHOUT due process of law will inherently directly affect your ability to withstand the same attacks upon you. Wake up people! Using the force of government against Muslims in any way shape or form opens the door directly for the athiest secular powers to squash Christianity and every other form of Religion. Replace the word Muslim in any statement you make with the word Jew, and take a deep look at what that statement really means. Not the evidence, but the actions you propose we take. What actions do you propose? What would be the consequences of those actions if levied against Jews or Christians? Please, THINK. Put away fear, put away terror, put away emotion. Use the very powerful minds that God gave you. Now replace Muslim with Tea Party. Always Learning, Jeremy D. Young --- On Wed, 9/8/10, Eric Vought evou...@pobox.com wrote: From: Eric Vought evou...@pobox.com Subject: Re: [MoLiCo] Fw: Say No to the Islamic Victory Mosque at Ground Zero To: missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com Date: Wednesday, September 8, 2010, 8:02 AM On Sep 8, 2010, at 7:45 AM, Jerry Blevins wrote: Thank you to Ideology of Islam for this post. Philosopher Karl Popper had these wise words: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed and tolerance with them. ... We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. BS. We are not talking about stopping them from eating babies. We are talking about them building a mosque. If you can show me a Muslim who is raping women or eating babies, then Off with his head! But right now we have plenty of Christians doing that and we just elect them to Congress. Instead of actually opposing evil, we are discussing opposition to a symbol people *say* represents evil. There are plenty of people who believe that the Cross and, say, the Catholic Church, is just such a symbol (and you are proving them right). Will you tolerate the atheist's right to not tolerate the intolerant? Oppose the sin, not the sinner: It is easier, more effective, and actually legal. Sincerely, Eric Vought Faith does not absolve us from trying to understand our world and make moral distinctions with the eyes and brain given us. Religion is as much responsibility as direction: Duty not Distinction. --This is a Free Speech forum. The owner of this list assumes no responsibility for the intellectual or emotional maturity of its members. If you do not like what is being said here, filter it to trash, ignore it or leave. If you leave, learn how to do this for yourself. If you do not, you will be here forever. -- This is a Free Speech forum. The owner of this list assumes no responsibility for the intellectual or emotional maturity of its members. If you do not like what is being said here, filter it to trash, ignore it or leave. If you leave, learn how to do this for yourself. If you do not, you will be here forever.
Re: [MoLiCo] Fw: Say No to the Islamic Victory Mosque at Ground Zero
On Sep 8, 2010, at 7:45 AM, Jerry Blevins wrote: Thank you to Ideology of Islam for this post. Philosopher Karl Popper had these wise words: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed and tolerance with them. ... We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. Thomas Mann said: Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil. The doctrines of Islam, formalized in the sacred Islamic law of Sharia, are the greatest source of religious bigotry, intolerance, hatred and violence in the world today. Anyone who supports religious freedom and tolerance should be taking a strong stand against Sharia law. Anyone who does not take a strong stand against Sharia law becomes an accessory to Islamic bigotry and intolerance. Ron Silverman, Chapter Leader South Bend, IN ACT! for America E-Mail: act4...@att.net You also have still not answered the most important question. Even, assuming for the sake of argument you were right on all else, How would you change the law to oppose this mosque and not have that law misused against everyone else? Show me *wording* of such a change. How are you going to get around the First Amendment and the common law Right to Contract (and the Due Process clause and the Immunities and Privileges clause...) to prevent someone from building a religious center on private land short conviction for an actual crime? And, if you had a conviction for an actual crime, why would that not suffice in the matter? Your argument is self-conflicting and insupportable EVEN if all the facts you allege are correct. The bare fact is that this mosque construction was *exactly* what the Founders sought to protect at the founding of our nation (yes, there were, in fact, Muslims in the US at the time and certainly Christian sects who were subject to religious intolerance) and was quite clearly the explicit purpose of the 14th Amendment (many ex-slaves were Muslim). The rest of what you accuse Muslims has nothing whatsoever to do with this construction. If any of it were more than vague accusations: if the guy were a criminal, if the money was crooked, if the city council was bribed, if they were training commandos, if he had a direct connection to 9/11, etc., etc., then opposition to the mosque itself would not be necessary, One could simply oppose the crimes. And, if you show me *another* mosque training commandos or stewing children, then that *still* is not enough in this case. Arrest *them*; It is still neither legal nor moral to oppose *this* project or any other religious construction on the basis that you are afraid of an entire, vaguely-defined class of people, just as it is illegal and immoral to shut down all churches because of priest-pedophiles elsewhere. So, let me be blunt for my part: to the extent that any opposition to this construction is not based on a crime in fact, I DO call it bigotry and intolerance. What is more, I call it illegal, un-American, un-Christian and evil. Sincerely, Eric Vought Faith does not absolve us from trying to understand our world and make moral distinctions with the eyes and brain given us. Religion is as much responsibility as direction: Duty not Distinction. -- This is a Free Speech forum. The owner of this list assumes no responsibility for the intellectual or emotional maturity of its members. If you do not like what is being said here, filter it to trash, ignore it or leave. If you leave, learn how to do this for yourself. If you do not, you will be here forever.
Re: [MoLiCo] Fw: Say No to the Islamic Victory Mosque at Ground Zero
On Sep 8, 2010, at 11:48 AM, Jerry Blevins wrote: Al Qaeda attacked us on September 11, but they did so in the name of Islam In that case, Christianity provoked war between Russia and Afghanistan, fueled the conflict there to the destruction of that country, created the Taliban, trained Osama Bin Ladin, and armed Al Qaeda. So I guess Christianity attacked us on 9/11 and is responsible for the Muslims (the ones not on the planes), the Hindus, Buddhists, and others who died in the World Trade Center. Facts are such stubborn things. The more you stretch them, the more they bite back. And we have been doing this kind of thing for a very long time. King Charles of France (Charlemagne) sent a Christian army to aid rebel Saracens (Muslims) against their king (also Muslims), basically aiding armed dissidents inside a Muslim territory. We know from history that Ganelon, one of Charle's nobles and advisors secretly in the pay of the Saracens, betrayed him and Count Roland (Charlemagne's nephew) who commanded the rear guard. The rear guard was cut off by the Saracen rebels and destroyed at the pass of Ronceveaux. None of this makes the heroic last stand of Roland (recounted in the Song of Roland) any less heroic (or Ganelon's actions less treacherous), but it shows that Christianity has been meddling in Muslim politics for a very long time (and vice versa). It is very interesting that many people are claiming with one hand that opposition to the mosque is not based on religious intolerance and bigotry and with the other hand try to justify that bigotry by claiming that blind hatred of Muslims is actually moral. Blind hatred is never moral, no matter who it is focused against. You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. ---Mathew 5:43-48 (NIV) Bottom line: I do not agree with adherents to Islam, but I will defend--- to the death--- their right to practice their religion, even if they DO hate me, even if they are secretly plotting to hide all the pens in my house and drive me crazy. That is what I am commanded to do and I will try to do it until I cannot. Sincerely, Eric Vought Faith does not absolve us from trying to understand our world and make moral distinctions with the eyes and brain given us. Religion is as much responsibility as direction: Duty not Distinction. -- This is a Free Speech forum. The owner of this list assumes no responsibility for the intellectual or emotional maturity of its members. If you do not like what is being said here, filter it to trash, ignore it or leave. If you leave, learn how to do this for yourself. If you do not, you will be here forever.
Re: [MoLiCo] Fw: Say No to the Islamic Victory Mosque at Ground Zero
Jeremy, Someone told me to do this some time ago to legislation and then determine if it is still worthwhile. This is something that I have hopefully instilled in the TYCOA legislative group as well. I may not like seeing XXX billboards driving up and down the interstate, however what about the ones being used to promote a message about GOD..? If you can eliminate what you find offensive then it can just as easily be used to remove what you do not. tom On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 12:47 PM, Jeremy D. Young jeremydyo...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Eric, keep fighting the good fight. Our nation is in great peril. The ground swell of freedom loving Americans has been divided and distracted. Millions of Americans were focused on the true enemy of our freedom and Liberty, The State. Now they are distracted, focusing instead on hatred of a people group. Focused on destroying people and nations across the globe. Instead of focusing on our local governments, state governments, and finally federal governments, we're bickering and arguing over the ways in which we will destroy the individual freedoms of a group we choose to hate. It doesn't matter how you justify your hatred, if you ever apply your assumptions about a people group to an individual, you have damaged that person's liberty. Every individual is a king. A king of their own little world. They have the right to do with their bodies, their property, and their minds what they wish. Every other individual has the right to the same, as well as freedom from attack from other individuals. If you cannot stand for the Life, Liberty, and Property of the people that you hate, then you do not deserve your own. In fact, I propose, along with Eric's statements that your efforts to deprive some individual of their Life, Liberty, or Property WITHOUT due process of law will inherently directly affect your ability to withstand the same attacks upon you. Wake up people! Using the force of government against Muslims in any way shape or form opens the door directly for the athiest secular powers to squash Christianity and every other form of Religion. Replace the word Muslim in any statement you make with the word Jew, and take a deep look at what that statement really means. Not the evidence, but the actions you propose we take. What actions do you propose? What would be the consequences of those actions if levied against Jews or Christians? Please, THINK. Put away fear, put away terror, put away emotion. Use the very powerful minds that God gave you. Now replace Muslim with Tea Party. Always Learning, Jeremy D. Young --- On Wed, 9/8/10, Eric Vought evou...@pobox.com wrote: From: Eric Vought evou...@pobox.com Subject: Re: [MoLiCo] Fw: Say No to the Islamic Victory Mosque at Ground Zero To: missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com Date: Wednesday, September 8, 2010, 8:02 AM On Sep 8, 2010, at 7:45 AM, Jerry Blevins wrote: Thank you to Ideology of Islam for this post. Philosopher Karl Popper had these wise words: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed and tolerance with them. ... We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. BS. We are not talking about stopping them from eating babies. We are talking about them building a mosque. If you can show me a Muslim who is raping women or eating babies, then Off with his head! But right now we have plenty of Christians doing that and we just elect them to Congress. Instead of actually opposing evil, we are discussing opposition to a symbol people *say* represents evil. There are plenty of people who believe that the Cross and, say, the Catholic Church, is just such a symbol (and you are proving them right). Will you tolerate the atheist's right to not tolerate the intolerant? Oppose the sin, not the sinner: It is easier, more effective, and actually legal. Sincerely, Eric Vought Faith does not absolve us from trying to understand our world and make moral distinctions with the eyes and brain given us. Religion is as much responsibility as direction: Duty not Distinction. --This is a Free Speech forum. The owner of this list assumes no responsibility for the intellectual or emotional maturity of its members. If you do not like what is being said here, filter it to trash, ignore it or leave. If you leave, learn how to do this for yourself. If you do not, you will be here forever. -- This is a Free Speech forum. The owner of this list assumes no responsibility for the intellectual or emotional maturity of its members. If you do not like what is being said here, filter it to trash, ignore
RE: [MoLiCo] Fw: Say No to the Islamic Victory Mosque at Ground Zero
Thank you to Ideology of Islam for this post. Philosopher Karl Popper had these wise words: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed and tolerance with them. ... We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. Thomas Mann said: Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil. The doctrines of Islam, formalized in the sacred Islamic law of Sharia, are the greatest source of religious bigotry, intolerance, hatred and violence in the world today. Anyone who supports religious freedom and tolerance should be taking a strong stand against Sharia law. Anyone who does not take a strong stand against Sharia law becomes an accessory to Islamic bigotry and intolerance. Ron Silverman, Chapter Leader South Bend, IN ACT! for America E-Mail: act4...@att.net Visit: www.ACTforAmerica.org Rising in defense of our security, our liberty, and our values. -Original Message- From: missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com [mailto:missourilibertycoalit...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Eric Vought Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 11:27 PM To: missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [MoLiCo] Fw: Say No to the Islamic Victory Mosque at Ground Zero On Sep 7, 2010, at 8:13 PM, Linda Herd wrote: I would rather change the constitution to eliminate that part to freedom of religion to all those with the exception of theirs which is that of using killing, lies, and whatever to gain their insterest of making the world of just Muslims. How? How would you word such a change in a way that does not endanger all practice of religion? Where do you hold on to that sharp blade that it will not cut you as well? Remember that government documents have accused CHRISTIAN groups of being possible domestic terrorists on exactly the same grounds. The accusations are false, but that won't matter. You might pass such a law with the intent of hurting Muslims, but someone like Obama will use it against Christians faster than you can say mosque. That is why freedom of religion cannot be selective. I say we need to pay more intention to what they are doing and not worry too much about their freedom to excerise their religious practices. It is not THEIR freedom of religion I am worried about, but MY OWN. You cannot attack their freedom without attacking mine. That is not your intent, but it is an inevitable consequence of opposing construction of the mosque. The legal precedent set WILL be used against Christians. Sincerely, Eric Vought Faith does not absolve us from trying to understand our world and make moral distinctions with the eyes and brain given us. Religion is as much responsibility as direction: Duty not Distinction. -- This is a Free Speech forum. The owner of this list assumes no responsibility for the intellectual or emotional maturity of its members. If you do not like what is being said here, filter it to trash, ignore it or leave. If you leave, learn how to do this for yourself. If you do not, you will be here forever. -- This is a Free Speech forum. The owner of this list assumes no responsibility for the intellectual or emotional maturity of its members. If you do not like what is being said here, filter it to trash, ignore it or leave. If you leave, learn how to do this for yourself. If you do not, you will be here forever.
RE: [MoLiCo] Fw: Say No to the Islamic Victory Mosque at Ground Zero
-Muslims of their rights and calling upon Muslims to murder them. Al Qaeda employs technology and techniques unavailable to Mohammed, but they see themselves as carrying on his struggle. And it's hard to distinguish between them on a moral or ethical level. Western politicians may insist that Al Qaeda has nothing to do with Islam, but Al Qaeda derives from Islam. There is no Al Qaeda without Islam. If Al Qaeda's goals were significantly at variance with Islam, it is common sense that they would have very little support in the Muslim world. Indeed Muslims would see them as enemies. But that is not quite the case. Al Qaeda is part of a rising Islamist tide, which seeks to create absolute Islamic states and a global Caliphate. When Muslims differ with Al Qaeda, it is on their level of commitment to Islam. Al Qaeda demands an absolute commitment to Islam that overrides all other values. It seeks a renewal of Mohammed's old war against the infidel. Al Qaeda's goal is a pure Islam. Al Qaeda attacked us on September 11, but they did so in the name of Islam Al Qaeda attacked us on September 11, but they did so in the name of Islam. And their precedent was over a thousand years of Muslim violence against non-Muslims. A violence that has its scriptural source in the words of the Koran. No individual Islamic terrorist attack or group can be detached from those words and precedents. The history of the Middle East did not begin in 1917 or 1948 or 1992. But while liberals insist on talking about the context for terrorism, they are unwilling to listen to any context broader than their own local politics. And what they are most unwilling to hear is that Muslim regional and global violence predates anything relating to the United States or any European countries. Muslim violence emerges from the firm belief that only Islam can be allowed to rule. Al Qaeda is only one of many such historical attempts to enforce that through violence. That is why Islam did attack us on September 11. One and a half billion did not board four planes. But ideologies do not need to board planes, they have followers who are willing to carry out violence in their name. Until Muslims reform Islam, and abandon their allegiance to an Islamic law that imposes inferiority on non-Muslims, they cannot divorce themselves from Al Qaeda or September 11. -Original Message- From: missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com [mailto:missourilibertycoalit...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Eric Vought Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 8:02 AM To: missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [MoLiCo] Fw: Say No to the Islamic Victory Mosque at Ground Zero On Sep 8, 2010, at 7:45 AM, Jerry Blevins wrote: Thank you to Ideology of Islam for this post. Philosopher Karl Popper had these wise words: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed and tolerance with them. ... We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. BS. We are not talking about stopping them from eating babies. We are talking about them building a mosque. If you can show me a Muslim who is raping women or eating babies, then Off with his head! But right now we have plenty of Christians doing that and we just elect them to Congress. Instead of actually opposing evil, we are discussing opposition to a symbol people *say* represents evil. There are plenty of people who believe that the Cross and, say, the Catholic Church, is just such a symbol (and you are proving them right). Will you tolerate the atheist's right to not tolerate the intolerant? Oppose the sin, not the sinner: It is easier, more effective, and actually legal. Sincerely, Eric Vought Faith does not absolve us from trying to understand our world and make moral distinctions with the eyes and brain given us. Religion is as much responsibility as direction: Duty not Distinction. -- This is a Free Speech forum. The owner of this list assumes no responsibility for the intellectual or emotional maturity of its members. If you do not like what is being said here, filter it to trash, ignore it or leave. If you leave, learn how to do this for yourself. If you do not, you will be here forever. -- This is a Free Speech forum. The owner of this list assumes no responsibility for the intellectual or emotional maturity of its members. If you do not like what is being said here, filter it to trash, ignore it or leave. If you leave, learn how to do this for yourself. If you do not, you will be here forever.
Re: [MoLiCo] Fw: Say No to the Islamic Victory Mosque at Ground Zero
On Sep 6, 2010, at 4:21 PM, Jerry Blevins wrote (quoting Pamela Geller): First, there is the Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, leader of the mosque effort. It is clear that Rauf and other mosque leaders are not as moderate as they claim to be. Rauf has close ties to the Muslim Brotherhood, while those who claim he is moderate just keep telling us that he is without giving us evidence. But the audio and transcripts posted at my website Atlas Shrugs prove otherwise. I have also seen reports of criminal connections. If the guy IS a criminal or conspires to commit crimes, then he belongs in prison. If the money is (provably) dirty then it can be seized and the mosque project presumably would not happen. But this has nothing to do with the proposed mosque itself. The KKK was decapitated when its leaders crossed the line into directly inciting violence. I have no problem with going after people for that. I do have a BIG problem with opposing the construction of a place of religious worship or even a building which is arguably a place of religious worship (even if it is a bald-faced lie). The precedent of us claiming to be able to judge their intentions or religious convictions from here is very troubling and would rapidly be used against many other groups, including CHRISTIAN groups. No one shall be deprived of life or liberty without due process of law. All we have now is an *accusation*, not an actual crime, let alone a conviction in a proper court. Show me a crime, a judge, a jury, and a conviction. That is the standard we are held to. I know of no way to get around that without endangering MY practice of religion and YOURS the same way. Do you? Sincerely, Eric Vought Faith does not absolve us from trying to understand our world and make moral distinctions with the eyes and brain given us. Religion is as much responsibility as direction: Duty not Distinction. -- This is a Free Speech forum. The owner of this list assumes no responsibility for the intellectual or emotional maturity of its members. If you do not like what is being said here, filter it to trash, ignore it or leave. If you leave, learn how to do this for yourself. If you do not, you will be here forever.
Re: [MoLiCo] Fw: Say No to the Islamic Victory Mosque at Ground Zero
On Sep 6, 2010, at 5:16 PM, Tom Martz wrote: Even before the first paragraph one can STOP reading, I favor the buil;ding of the mosque and yet I have NEVER called any one who opposed it a RACIST or BIGOT nor have I ever said that those who oppose it are doing so out of their hatred of Muslims. The fallacy in this argument is once more marginalizing everyone by lumping them into one category. An Some how because I favor the building of the cultural center I'm somehow anti-american..? NO Pamela your article points out your ignorance of those who defend the building of this under the guise of the Constitution. Technically, the argument derails even before that point. I don't favor building the mosque and I don't think you do either, precisely. I am just opposed to opposing it. Whether it gets built or not does not matter to me much. Whether or not we follow *our own law* does matter to me. Sincerely, Eric Vought Faith does not absolve us from trying to understand our world and make moral distinctions with the eyes and brain given us. Religion is as much responsibility as direction: Duty not Distinction. -- This is a Free Speech forum. The owner of this list assumes no responsibility for the intellectual or emotional maturity of its members. If you do not like what is being said here, filter it to trash, ignore it or leave. If you leave, learn how to do this for yourself. If you do not, you will be here forever.
Re: [MoLiCo] Fw: Say No to the Islamic Victory Mosque at Ground Zero
government and constitution in their Mosques. They are not ownly sly and know how to get us by using our own selves to do it, there religion which is not separate from the state. It's one. I think we are ignorant to let them build their Mosque. It has been repeated in their past, over and over. They plan to finish the taking over our countrythe what they have done and have planned for the future. It would take a miracle to stop it now. Maybe. We are giving the Mexicans who Obama is allowing them everything they want in order to het countless millions to for him. We are allowing the Muslims to do their work under our noses. It amazes me that we have let it go so far. You have a positive outlook. I often am realistic. It's nice to look for the good in everybody. I cannot do that when the Muslims are involved. It is completely possible that it's over to our dismay. We can still work against it of course. Their plan is all encompassing. It's like a web that has caught us and we are trying to get out, but like it goes with the webs of Spiders, it would be almost impossible. Do not mix spiders with the prey. We have let it go so far, it doesn't appear to have a wonderful ending. Maybe those who are living sinfully in this country have gone too far. Maybe we should allow anyone in the world to come here and share what we have worked so long to have. Our programs were going broke before. They will change them to their specification by ending them. It will not not be the Americans who rule. I am not happy with that. We have veered off so much. I have have sat with an open mouth many times seeing how the government has been run for so many years. I didn't think it would go on for ever, but the Americans have acted like it would. Apathy is more dangerous that just about anything. No, I think that at this time and place that we should deny this Mosque. They laugh about our apathy and stupidity. They are using our indifference in an evil way. As intelligent people we should be able to see what they are doing. Forgive us for we do not know what we are doing. God loves us He uses tough love, Linda Herd -- *From:* Eric Vought evou...@pobox.com *To:* missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com *Sent:* Fri, September 3, 2010 3:19:16 PM *Subject:* Re: [MoLiCo] Fw: Say No to the Islamic Victory Mosque at Ground Zero On Sep 3, 2010, at 7:51 AM, Jerry Blevins wrote: We must recognize that religion is only one aspect of Islam's Qur'an. The rest of this charter advances ideas, social behavior, and laws that are in direct conflict with American and western laws and values. Teddy Roosevelt once said that to live in America, immigrants must have undivided loyalty to America and to no one else. How is that possible for Muslims who swear loyalty to Islam where their governing laws are found in the Qur'an? These are the exact same arguments which were made to try to keep Kennedy out of the White House for Cripes' sake. They were pretty tired arguments then. Are you trying to tell me that Christians and Jews do NOT have religiously-based Law, ideas, and social behavior we are to follow? One could argue that the ideas, social behavior and laws are the ONLY part of our religion which actually matters. Do you suppose that Christ cares whether we have gone to church this Sunday if we are banging the postman and serving babies in the souflé? It is a very simple problem: to the extent that it is a religion, it is protected. To the extent that someone uses the religion to violate the law (e.g. murder), it may not be protected. You prosecute the crime, not the religion. If they keep their hands to themselves, It is none of our business. You do not get to decide when the Constitution applies and when it does not, anymore than Harry Reid, Obama, or Sarah Palin do. It is the Law of the Land. Really people, people are frothing at the mouth worked up about hypothetical nonsense when the boat is actually sinking around us. How many people worried about this proposed mosque and the potential viral growth of Sharia law are out there protesting the very real takeover of our ENTIRE FOOD PRODUCTION SYSTEM by HOMELAND SECURITY under FSEA (SB 510)? that all of the work to be able to raise chickens in Springfield might just be preempted by Federal regulation? How many people are this rabid about the fact that the Federal government has no more money and no credit remaining; that they either have to shut down or find somewhere to steal trillions of dollars, possibly within seven months? that Missouri itself may come up a BILLION dollars short next year on a $23 billion budget? Will a shrinking of government be good? Sure, but who thinks the shrinkage will be controlled? How many policemen and firemen are we now short in Springfield because of the budget crisis? What are people doing about that? How many people have gone to a volunteer
Re: [MoLiCo] Fw: Say No to the Islamic Victory Mosque at Ground Zero
On Sep 6, 2010, at 10:13 PM, Linda Herd wrote: If we used the law we have, we would not let them come here within the country to have Military Camps training them destroy our civilization. I have no problem with stopping people from training in military camps for the destruction of our civilization. I have a problem saying that someone cannot build a mosque (or church or temple or synagogue) on private land. If this guy is guilty of a crime, by all means arrest him, but building a religious place, even if he is specifically doing it to thumb his nose at us is not a crime. We have a guy on the throne who has not even demonstrated that he is qualified to hold office. We have Senators and Congressman who sold secrets to Turkish intelligence agents. We have the federal government crushing or taking over one industry after another. We have a War on Drugs where police bash in doors in the middle of the night while the very same police get caught again and again using and SELLING the drugs. We have a lot of bigger fish to fry than what gets built where in Manhattan. As Tom Marz said, Show me the evidence that Muslims have done anything to take over our legal system. I have plenty of evidence that our own government is doing so. Sincerely, Eric Vought Faith does not absolve us from trying to understand our world and make moral distinctions with the eyes and brain given us. Religion is as much responsibility as direction: Duty not Distinction. -- This is a Free Speech forum. The owner of this list assumes no responsibility for the intellectual or emotional maturity of its members. If you do not like what is being said here, filter it to trash, ignore it or leave. If you leave, learn how to do this for yourself. If you do not, you will be here forever.
Re: [MoLiCo] Fw: Say No to the Islamic Victory Mosque at Ground Zero
they should do. War, war, war. They project onto their so called god and we projected warring on to our God. With the atomic bomb, one could destroy us with ease. Are the Arabians developing such? Why? I can understand why. Is it for protection? You know that the Old Testament projects onto God that they must fight to extend their religion to all others. They are where we were. I did not agree to this war. They wanted us to have a war. We have so called freedom in this country although it is being courrupted. It is still better that most of the countries on earth. Oh, well, I hope you are as ready to give your life to the other side as I am. We do not have to compete to be alive when we are not in the body. We shall laugh about the fact that I am competing with those who disagree on this. There has never been a time like this. As a teen I did not worry about the bomb like others. I did not fear it. Do not fear it now, but I would rather my brothers do not have to go through it. Maybe nothing I say will change your ideas. Being careful is not bad. Maybe these are not the facts you want. The coincidences here are hard to ignore. God forgive them for they do not know what they do. I know that also is for us. Do you think that I think the U.S. is better than all others? I have been liberal and maybe would have agreed with this freedom of religions thing. Not for our enemies. I do not give to them my life or my country. I will let them kill me, however, but only if they do what they have been saying they want to do. The Mosque can not hurt us by itself. What they do within one, from centuries past, who think theirs is the best and should be the only religion. There are those in the rest of the world that know what we face. Do we want to give away just exactly what they want? It seems Obama does.None of our ground should allow sharia law. Tell me this. Is Obama one who is concerned about our freedom? Where does he go to church? For what reason is he allowing illegal immigration? The immigrants of which I write will elect him. Why is he pressing for amnesty? If am wrong, hallelujah! The best to you and yours, With respect, Linda Herd From: Tom Martz t.ma...@gmail.com To: missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com Sent: Tue, September 7, 2010 2:07:06 AM Subject: Re: [MoLiCo] Fw: Say No to the Islamic Victory Mosque at Ground Zero besides the idiot judge in NJ ( I believe) show me one instance where we as a nation or we as a local government have incorporated anything within the realm of sharia law. Sharia Law is a red herring designed just as the word terrorist was uttered to keep people in fear of stepping outside their knowledge zone. tom On Mon, Sep 6, 2010 at 10:13 PM, Linda Herd linda.h...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Well, Eric, This is a good one. I beg to disagree. If we used the law we have, we would not let them come here within the country to have Military Camps training them destroy our civilization. It is multifold. Sharia is a way of life. Obama is pushing on us the sharia way of life, for which I will not not accept it. We will have to become Muslims if he conquers. That is according to the Quera'n. I realize that we a failing and I have known that no nation in history has done better. When we have greed for the things of this world it causes that failure. I will not live under sharia and would wish that Obama had not been elected. I tried to talk to people but they were not going to listen. This country is lackadaisical and apathetic. We have known this would not last and for long. I predicted 10 years ago that it would end with in the next 15 to 20 years. He told us the pathelogical lier that he is, that he would make a change in the United States. He meant that he would change it completely but did not really tell us how. He lied which is what the Quera'n and in any way he can, and take this county from us. We should have known what he meant with his name and nothing more. Yes, we are partly to blame. He is not letting a critical situation pass without his Muslism Nation taking advantage of it. This is the perfect time. I blame our own government that has turned aside from the Constitution and Christ's moral teachings. I was worried to death until I realized what we should have known. It is probably too late, duh, to change ourselves to go back to the teachings of Christ and the Constitution. Both sides have culpability. You also do a good job of arguing. However when it comes to sharia law, we would be better off with communism or socialism. At least then we could worship our God in our hearts. They do not allow that in that one has to convert or very well be killed, locked up, put in camps, and who knows what will happen? Obama should never been allowed to run until we saw his real birth certificate. With the ignorant liberals believing what they wanted, we made a huge mistake. We
Re: [MoLiCo] Fw: Say No to the Islamic Victory Mosque at Ground Zero
On Sep 7, 2010, at 8:13 PM, Linda Herd wrote: I would rather change the constitution to eliminate that part to freedom of religion to all those with the exception of theirs which is that of using killing, lies, and whatever to gain their insterest of making the world of just Muslims. How? How would you word such a change in a way that does not endanger all practice of religion? Where do you hold on to that sharp blade that it will not cut you as well? Remember that government documents have accused CHRISTIAN groups of being possible domestic terrorists on exactly the same grounds. The accusations are false, but that won't matter. You might pass such a law with the intent of hurting Muslims, but someone like Obama will use it against Christians faster than you can say mosque. That is why freedom of religion cannot be selective. I say we need to pay more intention to what they are doing and not worry too much about their freedom to excerise their religious practices. It is not THEIR freedom of religion I am worried about, but MY OWN. You cannot attack their freedom without attacking mine. That is not your intent, but it is an inevitable consequence of opposing construction of the mosque. The legal precedent set WILL be used against Christians. Sincerely, Eric Vought Faith does not absolve us from trying to understand our world and make moral distinctions with the eyes and brain given us. Religion is as much responsibility as direction: Duty not Distinction. -- This is a Free Speech forum. The owner of this list assumes no responsibility for the intellectual or emotional maturity of its members. If you do not like what is being said here, filter it to trash, ignore it or leave. If you leave, learn how to do this for yourself. If you do not, you will be here forever.
Re: [MoLiCo] Fw: Say No to the Islamic Victory Mosque at Ground Zero
On Sep 2, 2010, at 9:19 PM, Tom Martz wrote: Does a Muslim working in any of the buildings hit by 9/11 debris also tarnish hallowed ground..? I would also like to point out that the N.Y. City Commission was following the Constitution, something that this organization wants to ignore. Or, say, building Mount Rushmore's monument at the site of the Wounded Knee massacre? Or, building Arlington National Cemetery on the site of Robert E. Lee's home? Building mines in the Black Hills on Native American grave sites (which we signed a treaty supposedly guaranteeing we would never touch)? I know, history is terribly inconvenient :-) Technically, Manhattan isn't even OURS. It was LEASED from the Powhattan indians. What do they think about this, I wonder? Sincerely, Eric Vought Faith does not absolve us from trying to understand our world and make moral distinctions with the eyes and brain given us. Religion is as much responsibility as direction: Duty not Distinction. -- This is a Free Speech forum. The owner of this list assumes no responsibility for the intellectual or emotional maturity of its members. If you do not like what is being said here, filter it to trash, ignore it or leave. If you leave, learn how to do this for yourself. If you do not, you will be here forever.
