[Mjpeg-users] Without the hardware....
Derek Fountain wrote: Just as a matter of interest, what are the principal uses, if any, of the MJPEG Tools to someone who doesn't have a supported capture card? You don't have to capture with the mjpegtools -- I never have (all my captures are DV through a Canopus box on FireWire). Capture with whatever you like, and use the mjpegtools for encoding. My first encounter with mjpegtools was when I was trying to generate video from the files that my digital camera produced (mjpeg). I then discovered the project and learned a lot, until I was able to generate a VCD out of the lot of digitally captured 1 min video AVI files that my camera produced. In the end, I even contributed a bit to the project, because I had to wrote the yuvfps utility to convert from the 10fps to the standard 25fps. I don't do nowadays much video with my digital camera, but last christmas I got a TV card (bt878) and all the knowledge I gained about formats during my initial adventures has been very useful when recording TV broadcasts. The set of utilities that this project has produced are truly for me a swiss army knife of video processing (yes, I'm only an amateur) that no commercial offering can match in versatility and of course, price. --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by: Sybase ASE Linux Express Edition - download now for FREE LinuxWorld Reader's Choice Award Winner for best database on Linux. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=5588&alloc_id=12065&op=click ___ Mjpeg-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mjpeg-users
Re: [Mjpeg-users] Without the hardware....
On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 08:36:39 -0700 (PDT) "Steven M. Schultz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Huh? It's just 12GB/hour - quite comparable to the high > quality full frame mode that MJPEG cards produce (or so I was > told at one time Yup, full-frame PAL captured with my Marvel takes ~10GB/hour. Martin --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by: Sybase ASE Linux Express Edition - download now for FREE LinuxWorld Reader's Choice Award Winner for best database on Linux. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=5588&alloc_id=12065&op=click ___ Mjpeg-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mjpeg-users
Re: [Mjpeg-users] Without the hardware....
Hallo Sorry, if I write something alreaddy mentioned. > > Exactly. The code for capturing in mjpegtools is a relatively small > > portion of the total - the bulk of the code resides in the (wide) > > variety of filters (couple denoisers, medianfilter, stabilizer, and > > so on), scaling, and especially the encoding and multiplexing (mplex > > is often regarded as the "standard" against which others are compared). > > Yep, OK, but I assumed these tools only worked on MJPEG files, and you only > got MJPEG files from a DC10+ card or similar. Shows what I know... :o} If you read the manpage of lavrec you will notice the --software-encoding option. With that option lavrec should be able to capture from many generic video card which work with v4l. Most bttv (bt 848/878) cards work. The first version (in 1999) of the "buz driver, with some tools used record and encoed video" were a "strange" set of tools. ;) auf hoffentlich bald, Berni the Chaos of Woodquarter Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] www: http://www.lysator.liu.se/~gz/bernhard --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by: Sybase ASE Linux Express Edition - download now for FREE LinuxWorld Reader's Choice Award Winner for best database on Linux. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=5588&alloc_id=12065&op=click ___ Mjpeg-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mjpeg-users
Re: [Mjpeg-users] Without the hardware....
On Wed, 27 Oct 2004, Ronald S. Bultje wrote: > Well, sync is built into the DV format. The problem with DV is, that it And you don't need a separate sound card per capture device (in the event you have more than one). Then too there is the 'locked audio' aspect of DV (which is an area that not all analog->digital converters are the same - some are better than others) which can be important when doing the editing. > takes so much HD. Other than that, DV is a wonderful format, with no Huh? It's just 12GB/hour - quite comparable to the high quality full frame mode that MJPEG cards produce (or so I was told at one time - perhaps I was misinformed on that point though). With a (~$100) 160GB drive you can hold 12 hours of capture and still have room to do some editing/encoding and 300GB 7200rpm drives have just landed on the store shelves here. > quality loss comes from the carrier (VHS, cable) anyway, so then DV > doesn't help anything. ;). Actually it does - it prevents further degradation (no sense tossing away what little quality remains from a VHS tape you know) :) Cheers, Steven Schultz --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by: Sybase ASE Linux Express Edition - download now for FREE LinuxWorld Reader's Choice Award Winner for best database on Linux. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=5588&alloc_id=12065&op=click ___ Mjpeg-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mjpeg-users
Re: [Mjpeg-users] Without the hardware....
On Wed, 2004-10-27 at 07:24, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > I've found, and maybe others will chime in, DV very easy to work with - > you've got _1_ choice of frame size/quality/whatever, no worries > about field order (DV is bottom field first. Period), and the DV > converters seem to handle unsteady analog signals better than other > devices (which tend cause A/V sync issues when the signal is unsteady), > and so on. Well, sync is built into the DV format. The problem with DV is, that it takes so much HD. Other than that, DV is a wonderful format, with no recognizable loss of quality, as opposed to MJPEG. Then again, most quality loss comes from the carrier (VHS, cable) anyway, so then DV doesn't help anything. ;). Ronald -- Ronald S. Bultje <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by: Sybase ASE Linux Express Edition - download now for FREE LinuxWorld Reader's Choice Award Winner for best database on Linux. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=5588&alloc_id=12065&op=click ___ Mjpeg-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mjpeg-users
Re: [Mjpeg-users] Without the hardware....
they do At least my Sony does E. > Some (most?) DV camcorders will function as > a analog->digital converter (at least in NTSC countries - not sure > about PAL). --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by: Sybase ASE Linux Express Edition - download now for FREE LinuxWorld Reader's Choice Award Winner for best database on Linux. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=5588&alloc_id=12065&op=click ___ Mjpeg-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mjpeg-users
Re: [Mjpeg-users] Without the hardware....
On Tue, Oct 26, 2004 at 10:32:40PM -0700, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > > Can I convert an MJPEG file to DV format so I can have a play with this > > smilutils package? > > Hmmm, I suppose it's possible - never tried it myself. You'd need > to get 'libdv' (another fine sourceforge project) built - it has a > 'encodedv' program in it. Take some research and experimentation to > figure out what it wants as input. ffmpeg's DV codec is *so* much better for encoding :-) > On the other hand 'ffmpeg' might be able to do the job - it can read > the mjpeg file and has excellent DV support (at least for decoding - > I haven't tried encoding to DV with it yet). That's right. PSNR is certainly better and the speed is comparable. By the way, what would it take to recruit you into the ffmpeg's DV encoding party ? ;-) Thanks, Roman. --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by: Sybase ASE Linux Express Edition - download now for FREE LinuxWorld Reader's Choice Award Winner for best database on Linux. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=5588&alloc_id=12065&op=click ___ Mjpeg-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mjpeg-users
Re: [Mjpeg-users] Without the hardware....
On Wed, 27 Oct 2004, Derek Fountain wrote: > Hmm, information overload. One question at a time from now on... :o) Well, you _did_ ask :-) > Can I convert an MJPEG file to DV format so I can have a play with this > smilutils package? Hmmm, I suppose it's possible - never tried it myself. You'd need to get 'libdv' (another fine sourceforge project) built - it has a 'encodedv' program in it. Take some research and experimentation to figure out what it wants as input. On the other hand 'ffmpeg' might be able to do the job - it can read the mjpeg file and has excellent DV support (at least for decoding - I haven't tried encoding to DV with it yet). If you can borrow/buy a miniDV camcorder you could produce as much DV data as you need. Some (most?) DV camcorders will function as a analog->digital converter (at least in NTSC countries - not sure about PAL). Put an inexpensive firewire card in the system (if it doesn't already have one) and then you're set on the hardware front. For software - start with libdv and work you way up thru kino/dvgrab/ smilutils. Cheers, Steven Schultz --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by: Sybase ASE Linux Express Edition - download now for FREE LinuxWorld Reader's Choice Award Winner for best database on Linux. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=5588&alloc_id=12065&op=click ___ Mjpeg-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mjpeg-users
Re: [Mjpeg-users] Without the hardware....
On Wed, 27 Oct 2004, Derek Fountain wrote: > OK, so can I basically assume that dvgrab is like a DV version of lavrec; that > kino is like a DV version of lavplay/glav; Ah, that's a good way to view things. I should have thought of that analogy. > and that smilutils has something like lav2yuv? 'smil2yuv' to be exact ;) Along with 'smil2wav' (to extract the audio), 'smil2raw' to export a DV stream from a .smil (edit list) file, and so on - quite a few nifty programs comprise the smilutils. > And that the output of dvgrab/kino/smilutils can be fed into the MJPEG suite > of utilities much like I do with the output from lavrec/glav/lav2yuv? Bingo! Yep - in simple form it's smil2yuv -a audiofile.wav input.dv | \ y4mscaler -O ... | \ yuvdenoise | ... \ yuvmedianfilter ... | \ ... \ | mpeg2enc -f 8 ... (I'll spare you the informatin overload about how smilutils can use ffmpeg's DV decoder to get slightly better quality/speed, ... ;)) Instead of a raw .dv file you could use a '.smil' file which is the counterpart to ".eli" - it's an edit list that specifies frame ranges. I've found, and maybe others will chime in, DV very easy to work with - you've got _1_ choice of frame size/quality/whatever, no worries about field order (DV is bottom field first. Period), and the DV converters seem to handle unsteady analog signals better than other devices (which tend cause A/V sync issues when the signal is unsteady), and so on. Cheers, Steven Schultz --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by: Sybase ASE Linux Express Edition - download now for FREE LinuxWorld Reader's Choice Award Winner for best database on Linux. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=5588&alloc_id=12065&op=click ___ Mjpeg-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mjpeg-users
Re: [Mjpeg-users] Without the hardware....
> I use 'dvgrab' to capture the data (12GB/hr) and then 'kino' to > edit (cut out the commercials, splice new scenes in, whatever). Kino > can capture of course but I prefer a commandline/batch method of > bulk capture. OK, so can I basically assume that dvgrab is like a DV version of lavrec; that kino is like a DV version of lavplay/glav; and that smilutils has something like lav2yuv? And that the output of dvgrab/kino/smilutils can be fed into the MJPEG suite of utilities much like I do with the output from lavrec/glav/lav2yuv? --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by: Sybase ASE Linux Express Edition - download now for FREE LinuxWorld Reader's Choice Award Winner for best database on Linux. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=5588&alloc_id=12065&op=click ___ Mjpeg-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mjpeg-users
Re: [Mjpeg-users] Without the hardware....
> Kino and dvgrab are the two main tools. An ancilliary part of kino > called "smilutils" is also used to manipulate the DV files after > capture and editing. Hmm, information overload. One question at a time from now on... :o) Can I convert an MJPEG file to DV format so I can have a play with this smilutils package? --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by: Sybase ASE Linux Express Edition - download now for FREE LinuxWorld Reader's Choice Award Winner for best database on Linux. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=5588&alloc_id=12065&op=click ___ Mjpeg-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mjpeg-users
Re: [Mjpeg-users] Without the hardware....
On Wed, 27 Oct 2004, Derek Fountain wrote:
> :) No, definitely not a troll! I was considering writing a piece for Newsforge
Ah, ok.
> The thing is, I only have a DC10+ card, which are increasingly difficult to
> get hold of these days. I have been blissfully unaware to date of what people
Indeed. They haven't been made in quite some time - the only way to
get one is eBay or similar.
> might do with the toolset without such a card, hence the question.
Add more tools to the toolbox of course :)
Kino and dvgrab are the two main tools. An ancilliary part of kino
called "smilutils" is also used to manipulate the DV files after
capture and editing.
Kino/Dvgrab/smilutils can all be found at/around:
http://kino.schirmacher.de/
> /me goes off to google to read about these things. What software do you use to
> capture from these cards, and what format do they capture in? Assuming they
The Canopus (http://www.canopus.com) units are not a "card" (well,
there is one model that is a card but most aren't) but an external
box (the -100 and -300 are the size of a small paperback book while the
'pro' equipment like the -500 and -1000 are rackmount,etc) that
accepts the analog source video and audio (VCR) using S-Video/composite
cables and then attaches to the computer by means of a IEEE1394 cable
("Firewire"). The analog data is converted to DV data which is
transmitted (for consumer devices) at 25Mb/s rate (well, ok - add
1.5Mb/s for the audio ;)).
The only thing the computer needs is a cheap "Firewire" card (which
can also be used to attach external discs).
I use 'dvgrab' to capture the data (12GB/hr) and then 'kino' to
edit (cut out the commercials, splice new scenes in, whatever). Kino
can capture of course but I prefer a commandline/batch method of
bulk capture.
Or if you have a MAC around you can use FCE (Final Cut Express) or
FCP (Final Cut Pro) to do the capture and editing. The DV files that
can be exported from the Apple tools are acceptable as input to
'smilutils' and so on. You could of course encode using Apple's
Compressor program but I've found that mpeg2enc and friends to work
quite well on OS/X.
With "raw" DV files you can even use 'dd' as a (very) crude editor
since the records are fixed length (12 bytes for 525line video
systems, 144000 bytes for 625line systems).
> don't capture to MJPEG, you presumably have to convert to MJPEG (in a
> non-lossy way) in order to use the tools...?
Ah, slight misunderstanding there - I think I can see why you might
be on a quest for more info ;)
Once the data is captured using the lavrec (or other mjpegtools
recording/capture tools) the OUTPUT of those is a "YUV" (IYUV, aka
4:2:0 planar, 12bit/pixel) variant (it's just 4:2:0planar with a
header and FRAME markers) called YUV4MPEG2.
The ONLY format that the encoder understands is YUV4MPEG2 (4:2:0p with
header and frame markers). The encoder does NOT understand MJPEG!
And neither do any of the filters.
> > Exactly. The code for capturing in mjpegtools is a relatively small
> > portion of the total - the bulk of the code resides in the (wide)...
>
> Yep, OK, but I assumed these tools only worked on MJPEG files, and you only
> got MJPEG files from a DC10+ card or similar. Shows what I know... :o}
Nope - almost NONE of the programs understand MJPEG. The capture
program and the decoder program (which turns MJPEG into YUV) are the
about the only things which really know about MJPEG.
'smilutils' decodes DV data to YUV4MPEG2 (and 'ffmpeg' and 'mplayer'
can also produce YUV4MPEG2 formatted data). Once that's done as the
first step then the rest of the programs in mjpegtools enter the scene.
Some of the tools (the filters) can work on other chroma samplings
such 4:1:1 or 4:2:2 but before the data enters the encoder it MUST
be scaled/converted to 4:2:0 since that's the only chroma space
supported (it's also the only one you can put on DVDs/SVCDs/etc ;)).
More clear now? :)
Cheers,
Steven Schultz
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Re: [Mjpeg-users] Without the hardware....
> > > Just as a matter of interest, what are the principal uses, if any, of > > > the MJPEG Tools to someone who doesn't have a supported capture card? > > At first I thought that was a troll ;) :) No, definitely not a troll! I was considering writing a piece for Newsforge (or similar) on the MJPEGTools project. I've had a few articles published there and have the ear of the editor, so to speak. The thing is, I only have a DC10+ card, which are increasingly difficult to get hold of these days. I have been blissfully unaware to date of what people might do with the toolset without such a card, hence the question. Since I've started asking stupid questions, I might as well continue, in the spirit of research. :) > Same here. And even when using a WinTV card with 'fxtv' > (http://people.freebsd.org/~rhh/fxtv/) on a BSD system I was using > mjpegtools to perform the processing of the data. After seeing the > difference between what a Bt878 and a Canopus ADVC100 (although today > I'd get the ADVC300) produce I pulled the WinTV card out and put it > in a static bag ;) /me goes off to google to read about these things. What software do you use to capture from these cards, and what format do they capture in? Assuming they don't capture to MJPEG, you presumably have to convert to MJPEG (in a non-lossy way) in order to use the tools...? > Exactly. The code for capturing in mjpegtools is a relatively small > portion of the total - the bulk of the code resides in the (wide) > variety of filters (couple denoisers, medianfilter, stabilizer, and > so on), scaling, and especially the encoding and multiplexing (mplex > is often regarded as the "standard" against which others are compared). Yep, OK, but I assumed these tools only worked on MJPEG files, and you only got MJPEG files from a DC10+ card or similar. Shows what I know... :o} --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by: Sybase ASE Linux Express Edition - download now for FREE LinuxWorld Reader's Choice Award Winner for best database on Linux. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=5588&alloc_id=12065&op=click ___ Mjpeg-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mjpeg-users
Re: [Mjpeg-users] Without the hardware....
On Tue, 26 Oct 2004, Robert Kesterson wrote: > Derek Fountain wrote: > > Just as a matter of interest, what are the principal uses, if any, of the > > MJPEG Tools to someone who doesn't have a supported capture card? At first I thought that was a troll ;) > You don't have to capture with the mjpegtools -- I never have (all my > captures are DV through a Canopus box on FireWire). Capture with Same here. And even when using a WinTV card with 'fxtv' (http://people.freebsd.org/~rhh/fxtv/) on a BSD system I was using mjpegtools to perform the processing of the data. After seeing the difference between what a Bt878 and a Canopus ADVC100 (although today I'd get the ADVC300) produce I pulled the WinTV card out and put it in a static bag ;) > whatever you like, and use the mjpegtools for encoding. Exactly. The code for capturing in mjpegtools is a relatively small portion of the total - the bulk of the code resides in the (wide) variety of filters (couple denoisers, medianfilter, stabilizer, and so on), scaling, and especially the encoding and multiplexing (mplex is often regarded as the "standard" against which others are compared). Cheers, Steven Schultz --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: IT Product Guide on ITManagersJournal Use IT products in your business? Tell us what you think of them. Give us Your Opinions, Get Free ThinkGeek Gift Certificates! Click to find out more http://productguide.itmanagersjournal.com/guidepromo.tmpl ___ Mjpeg-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mjpeg-users
Re: [Mjpeg-users] Without the hardware....
On Tue, 2004-10-26 at 15:15, Derek Fountain wrote: > Just as a matter of interest, what are the principal uses, if any, of the > MJPEG Tools to someone who doesn't have a supported capture card? mpeg2enc also works with output from ffmpeg and mplayer, so you can re-encode any movie to VCD, SVCD or DVD. The rest of the tools are merely of use for newly captured material. Ronald -- Ronald S. Bultje <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: IT Product Guide on ITManagersJournal Use IT products in your business? Tell us what you think of them. Give us Your Opinions, Get Free ThinkGeek Gift Certificates! Click to find out more http://productguide.itmanagersjournal.com/guidepromo.tmpl ___ Mjpeg-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mjpeg-users
Re: [Mjpeg-users] Without the hardware....
On Tuesday, Oct 26, 2004, at 15:15 Europe/Stockholm, Derek Fountain wrote: Just as a matter of interest, what are the principal uses, if any, of the MJPEG Tools to someone who doesn't have a supported capture card? To me, mjpegtools is a veritable swiss army knife when it comes to video processing (along with tools like ffmpeg, mencoder and QuickTime). It is generally very stable and accurate. I really like the unix way of piping tools together, as opposed to the others everything-in-a-box. I enjoy mjpegtools a great deal without having a capture card. I would even prefer if all the hardware capture issues could go into a separate list I can unsubscribe to! :) /Roine --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: IT Product Guide on ITManagersJournal Use IT products in your business? Tell us what you think of them. Give us Your Opinions, Get Free ThinkGeek Gift Certificates! Click to find out more http://productguide.itmanagersjournal.com/guidepromo.tmpl ___ Mjpeg-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mjpeg-users
Re: [Mjpeg-users] Without the hardware....
Derek Fountain wrote: Just as a matter of interest, what are the principal uses, if any, of the MJPEG Tools to someone who doesn't have a supported capture card? You don't have to capture with the mjpegtools -- I never have (all my captures are DV through a Canopus box on FireWire). Capture with whatever you like, and use the mjpegtools for encoding. -- Robert Kesterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: IT Product Guide on ITManagersJournal Use IT products in your business? Tell us what you think of them. Give us Your Opinions, Get Free ThinkGeek Gift Certificates! Click to find out more http://productguide.itmanagersjournal.com/guidepromo.tmpl ___ Mjpeg-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mjpeg-users
[Mjpeg-users] Without the hardware....
Just as a matter of interest, what are the principal uses, if any, of the MJPEG Tools to someone who doesn't have a supported capture card? --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: IT Product Guide on ITManagersJournal Use IT products in your business? Tell us what you think of them. Give us Your Opinions, Get Free ThinkGeek Gift Certificates! Click to find out more http://productguide.itmanagersjournal.com/guidepromo.tmpl ___ Mjpeg-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mjpeg-users
