Re: OSCON ideas - MVC talk
On Thu, Jan 09, 2003 at 09:22:35AM -0700, Rob Nagler wrote: So how about a panel discussion. I would gladly represent the MVC camp. :-) (see http://www.bivio.biz/hm/why-bOP for my position.) And I would gladly represent the MVC-is-not-the-final-word camp :-) A
Re: OSCON ideas - MVC talk
Andy Wardley wrote: Ask Bjoern Hansen wrote: I am planning to submit a proposal for a introduction talk on MVC in a web environment. [...] Like Perrin I would like feedback on the idea before putting in my proposal. I like the sound of it, but I should warn you that I have a personal crusade against inappropriate use of the phrase MVC in relation to web development. I like the sound of the proposal also but more because I think that anything Ask is itching to say is probably going to be interesting. So I trust that he'll give a good talk. However, like you, (but in a different way), I am not necessarily so keen on the topic of MVC. I think most programmers know what MVC is all about, the word is likely mentioned in the docs of most template toolkits which probably has led many people to already read the copious volumes of stuff written on the web about MVC, and likewise the mailing lists of many of the open source Perl toolkits out there probably digress into talking about MVC every 3-6 months at some point. :) In other words, I guess I am not sure how interesting MVC really is (to me). It feels like knowledge of MVC is everywhere to be found. So personally, I would not be interested in an MVC talk just for the sake of imparting knowledge on MVC. But if there was an interesting novel twist to it then that would be more interesting. Perhaps rather than asking our opinion on the title of these talks, a 1-paragraph abstract would be useful to also include in terms of giving an idea of the talk. My limited imagination is kind of turned off on the idea of a talk as an intro to MVC. But if the abstract sounded more interesting than my limited imagination is allowing it to based on a generic title/subject name, then something in that might spark more interest to me. It also could be that an intro talk isn't something that would spark interest on the people on this list because... well, those who are the most vocal here aren't really intro level people. But an intro level talk might interest the silent majority who would pay to attend the conference and could be interested in that Intro knowledge from a mentor instead of reading it on the web. So please don't let my naysaying discourage you. I could be completely wrong. Later, Gunther
Re: OSCON ideas - MVC talk
On Wed, 8 Jan 2003, Nathan Torkington wrote: Ask Bjoern Hansen writes: On Wed, 8 Jan 2003, Perrin Harkins wrote: Like Perrin I would like feedback on the idea before putting in my proposal. I've also been asked if anyone has a wishlist of talks they'd like to see at the conference. Ideally they'd be talks I'd pay money to see but I could live with talks I'd like to see even though they're hard to justify to my boss. Feel free to brainstorm here as much as you want :-) I might willing to do 20 mins on How I ported my registry script to mod_perl 2.0 (a.k.a. mod_perl 2.0 war stories). And no, I don't mean 45 mins. :-) -- !-- Matt -- :-get a SMart net/:- Spam trap - do not mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OSCON ideas - MVC talk
Nathan Torkington [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ask Bjoern Hansen writes: On Wed, 8 Jan 2003, Perrin Harkins wrote: Like Perrin I would like feedback on the idea before putting in my proposal. I've also been asked if anyone has a wishlist of talks they'd like to see at the conference. Ideally they'd be talks I'd pay money to see but I could live with talks I'd like to see even though they're hard to justify to my boss. Feel free to brainstorm here as much as you want :-) I've already submitted my proposal :/ But.. We've had toolkits such as HTML::Mason, AxKit, TT2, Embperl, etc., around for some time. Originally, these seem to have been developed as complete applications in and of themselves (my impression - could be wrong). But, as with anything that is well-done, they are starting to be used in ways that perhaps the developers didn't foresee. For example, we now have Bricolage, OpenInteract, and a host of others (going on memory, not web pages here) that are application frameworks using HTML::Mason, AxKit, etc., as tools just as they might use File::Spec. I can't think of a way to use Bricolage or OpenInteract in the way that they use TT2 or some other toolkit, but I look forward to the day when someone figures out how to do that. :) What I would find interesting would be some talks about what led to some of the design decisions in these frameworks. For example, why is authorization done the way it is -- what were the requirements that led to the data structures, etc? What compromises were made (e.g., speed vs. granularity)? No one authorization system can meet the needs of all applications. The application frameworks represent a lot of the design work in creating a web application. Different applications have different needs in what the frameworks must support. Going over an existing framework in this kind of detail would be instructive for those needing to decide whether to use an existing framework (and which one, if so) or to write one from scratch. One of the beauties of mod_perl is that it inherits the TMTOWTDI attitude of Perl. Unlike other environments, there isn't one framework, one exception structure, one authorization scheme. There are many. We can more easily fit our infrastructure to our application instead of our application to the infrastructure. But for mod_perl to work well, developers need to be able to make educated choices. I think most people in mod_perl understand this and are well-able to educate themselves when needed. But for someone new to Perl/mod_perl, the choices can be daunting (some complain that there are too many choices). A few talks along the line of educating people on what is there and why it is there might help them feel a bit more comfortable. -- James Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED], 979-862-3725 Texas AM CIS Operating Systems Group, Unix
Re: OSCON ideas - MVC talk
Andy Wardley writes:
I like the sound of it, but I should warn you that I have a personal
crusade against inappropriate use of the phrase MVC in relation to
web development.
So how about a panel discussion. I would gladly represent the MVC
camp. :-) (see http://www.bivio.biz/hm/why-bOP for my position.)
I am thinking about giving a talk about subject matter oriented
programming (SMOP). SMOP separates the programming concerns to allow
you to concentrate on the subject matter with minimal distractions.
If you are familiar with patterns, it's the interpreter pattern taken
to the extreme.
The example would be to compare Sun's Pet Store with our own
http://petshop.bivio.biz. The 3 major SMOP languages in bOP's PetShop
allow you to focus on the subject matter in the models, views, and
controllers without getting bogged down in syntax and unnecessary
repetition.
This is not a SMOP from J2EE's Pet Store[1]:
tr
td class=petstore_form align=right
bFirst Name/b
/td
td align=left colspan=2
waf:input cssClass=petstore_form
name=given_name_a
type=text
size=30
maxlength=30
validation=validation
waf:valuec:out value=${customer.account.contactInfo.givenName}//waf:value
/waf:input
/td
/tr
tr
td class=petstore_form align=right
bLast Name/b
/td
td align=left colspan=2
waf:input cssClass=petstore_form
type=text
name=family_name_a
size=30
maxlength=30
waf:valuec:out value=${customer.account.contactInfo.familyName}//waf:value
/waf:input
/td
/tr
And, this is a SMOP in bOP[2]:
[
vs_form_field('UserAccountForm.User.first_name'),
], [
vs_form_field('UserAccountForm.User.last_name'),
],
The intent is to demonstrate the power of Perl to distill the essence
of the subject matter.
Interest?
Rob
[1] http://java.sun.com/blueprints/code/index.html#java_pet_store_demo
[2] http://petshop.bivio.biz/src?s=View.account
Re: OSCON ideas - MVC talk
Ask Bjoern Hansen wrote: I am planning to submit a proposal for a introduction talk on MVC in a web environment. [...] Like Perrin I would like feedback on the idea before putting in my proposal. I like the sound of it, but I should warn you that I have a personal crusade against inappropriate use of the phrase MVC in relation to web development. Here's one of my rants on the subject (take with a pinch of salt) : http://lists.ourshack.com/pipermail/templates/2002-November/003974.html I'm considering submitting a proposal for a talk along the lines of MVC is not the only design pattern for web development. I don't plan to shoot MVC down in flames, but rather to illustrate that there are plenty of other design patterns that are as important, if not more important than MVC for web development. Hopefully that means that your proposal/talk and mine should be able to co-exist and complement each other's point of view. A
Re: OSCON ideas - MVC talk
On Wed, 8 Jan 2003, Perrin Harkins wrote: I am planning to submit a proposal for a introduction talk on MVC in a web environment. It is mostly talking about why (seperation of concerns etc) it's (sometimes) nicer than whatever you used to do and how you apply the goals to the actual implementation. In 90 minutes I think I can also go briefly into examples of actual models, controllers and templates. I think it could also be a tutorial[1], but tutorials bore me so much. So I don't think I'd want to do that. Like Perrin I would like feedback on the idea before putting in my proposal. :-) - ask [1] Except then I would have to write many more slides; I already have a ~70 minutes talk about it with slides, illustrations and all sorts of things. :-) -- ask bjoern hansen, http://www.askbjoernhansen.com/ !try; do();
Re: OSCON ideas - MVC talk
Ask Bjoern Hansen writes: On Wed, 8 Jan 2003, Perrin Harkins wrote: Like Perrin I would like feedback on the idea before putting in my proposal. I've also been asked if anyone has a wishlist of talks they'd like to see at the conference. Ideally they'd be talks I'd pay money to see but I could live with talks I'd like to see even though they're hard to justify to my boss. Feel free to brainstorm here as much as you want :-) Nat (yes, yes, we all want to see the How mod_perl 2.0 was finished but I'm not sure that's on the cards :-)
Re: OSCON ideas - MVC talk
Nathan Torkington wrote: (yes, yes, we all want to see the How mod_perl 2.0 was finished but I'm not sure that's on the cards :-) Since the submission deadline is one week that certainly would not happen. Though an improved mod_perl 2.0 by Example tutorial is definitely a must for those who want to get familiar with most of the 2.0 new features. __ Stas BekmanJAm_pH -- Just Another mod_perl Hacker http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide --- http://perl.apache.org mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://use.perl.org http://apacheweek.com http://modperlbook.org http://apache.org http://ticketmaster.com
Re: OSCON ideas - MVC talk
Stas Bekman wrote: Since the submission deadline is one week that certainly would not happen. For some reason I thought the deadline was Jan 15th, I see that it's Feb 15th. Submit your proposals here: http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2003/create/e_sess __ Stas BekmanJAm_pH -- Just Another mod_perl Hacker http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide --- http://perl.apache.org mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://use.perl.org http://apacheweek.com http://modperlbook.org http://apache.org http://ticketmaster.com
Re: OSCON ideas - MVC talk
On Thu, 9 Jan 2003, Stas Bekman wrote: Stas Bekman wrote: Since the submission deadline is one week that certainly would not happen. For some reason I thought the deadline was Jan 15th, I see that it's Feb 15th. Wow, you scared the crap out of me for a second. I want to submit some talks but it would have been a scramble to submit some for next week! -dave /*=== House Absolute Consulting www.houseabsolute.com ===*/
