Re: [VERY OT] What hourly rate to charge for programming?
Gunther Birznieks [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: America is richer than Australia. Yeah, but the food's better in Oz. Still, the beer sucks in both ;-) -- David Hodgkinson, Wizard for Hirehttp://www.davehodgkinson.com Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star http://www.deep-purple.com All the Purple Family Tree news http://www.slashrock.com Interim Technical Director, Web Architecture Consultant for hire
Re: [VERY OT] What hourly rate to charge for programming?
On Thu, 11 Oct 2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To: Gunther Birznieks [EMAIL PROTECTED], Still, the beer sucks in both ;-) That's because it's stale piss, I'm sure the beer glasses are pissed in to save money ;-) Heck, the beer is so bad nobody can possibly tell the difference anyway. Ahh, you have Budweiser in Australia too, then? ;) -- Chris Devers [EMAIL PROTECTED] Apache / mod_perl http://bunny.skillcheck.com/admin/chris/resume/
Re: [VERY OT] What hourly rate to charge for programming?
Chris Devers [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Ahh, you have Budweiser in Australia too, then? ;) Worse: Fosters. -- David Hodgkinson, Wizard for Hirehttp://www.davehodgkinson.com Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star http://www.deep-purple.com All the Purple Family Tree news http://www.slashrock.com Interim Technical Director, Web Architecture Consultant for hire
Re: What hourly rate to charge for programming?
I'd like to know where I can get paid more than AU$10/hour (US$4.90 to US$5 per hour) for my mod_perl programming... You guys in America get $100US per hour?! My god, I'm in the wrong country... Work is scarce in Australia and poorly paid in most cases compared to America. If I could get US$20 per hour for programming work I would be overjoyed with that! I'm not experienced in mod_perl commercially so I doubt I would get more than that, but I think US$20 per hour is reasonable for quality labor nontheless. I need to work from home. Anybody got any suggestions? I have looked on Yahoo for work from home jobs and they seem to be crooks. I never get any responses. James - Original Message - From: Daniel Aldham [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Franck PORCHER [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 1:52 AM Subject: Re: What hourly rate to charge for programming? Hello, Many factors are to be taken into account to establish a base line. As you say, experience is one. It determines the experience you will provide your client with: your ability to solve their problems, to meet their requirements, to react to constraints, be technical or not, to innovate, etc... [snip] I agree experience should be a factor. But more important is your personal workload. I typically charge $100/hr, and get it. I have a few customers that think this is too high. I have told a couple that I will work for $75 or $80, when I have the time. So if work is slow, I work for the lower rate. When I have more work than I can handle, I only work for $100, and the $75 /hr clients have to wait. They don't like it, but hey, that's how the market economy works. I don't especially like working for $75 either, but will take the work if that is all I have. -- Danny Aldham Providing Certified Internetworking Solutions to Business www.postino.com E-Mail, Web Servers, Web Databases, SQL PHP Perl
Re: [OT] What hourly rate to charge for programming?
C'mon guys remember to add OT to your off topic messages! It's not that hard. :) At 05:14 PM 10/10/2001, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd like to know where I can get paid more than AU$10/hour (US$4.90 to US$5 per hour) for my mod_perl programming... You guys in America get $100US per hour?! My god, I'm in the wrong country... America is richer than Australia. Work is scarce in Australia and poorly paid in most cases compared to America. If I could get US$20 per hour for programming work I would be overjoyed with that! I'm not experienced in mod_perl commercially so I doubt I would get more than that, but I think US$20 per hour is reasonable for quality labor nontheless. I need to work from home. Anybody got any suggestions? I have looked on Yahoo for work from home jobs and they seem to be crooks. I never get any responses. There's part of your problem. Few people trust telecommuters they don't know unless the job is fairly clear. I know I don't. I have telecommuters working for us on occasion but I know them or I trust them based on knowing them through a third party. You're lucky you get what you get and the price you get it. You're cutting yourself down of opportunities by having to work at home. I don't mean to be so frank about it. But really... this is a huge factor. It's a great luxury to work at home but it rarely works out unless you are really highly motivated or highly disciplined. Some people are like that, unfortunately this is not the majority of people so adding the project management overhead on behalf of the client means having to drop the hourly wage to the work-at-home consultant.
Re: [OT] What hourly rate to charge for programming?
On Wed, 10 Oct 2001, Gunther Birznieks wrote: At 05:14 PM 10/10/2001, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd like to know where I can get paid more than AU$10/hour (US$4.90 to US$5 per hour) for my mod_perl programming... You guys in America get $100US per hour?! My god, I'm in the wrong country... America is richer than Australia. gnudev, i don't know in what part of the country you're working, but i know several people in melbourne who are routinely getting paid au$80-100/hr for php, javascript/dhtml and ui design work. i haven't seen any perl work around, but then i haven't been looking either.
Re: [OT] What hourly rate to charge for programming?
Yes, they probably have tons of experience too, which I don't have, and I'm not in Melbourne. I used to work in Melbourne and never saw any jobs for $80 - $100 per hour, apart from doctors. I'll go have another look. I need to work from home too which is a major barrier to employment. - Original Message - From: brian moseley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 11:18 PM Subject: Re: [OT] What hourly rate to charge for programming? On Wed, 10 Oct 2001, Gunther Birznieks wrote: At 05:14 PM 10/10/2001, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd like to know where I can get paid more than AU$10/hour (US$4.90 to US$5 per hour) for my mod_perl programming... You guys in America get $100US per hour?! My god, I'm in the wrong country... America is richer than Australia. gnudev, i don't know in what part of the country you're working, but i know several people in melbourne who are routinely getting paid au$80-100/hr for php, javascript/dhtml and ui design work. i haven't seen any perl work around, but then i haven't been looking either.
Re: [VERY OT] What hourly rate to charge for programming?
Still, the beer sucks in both ;-) That's because it's stale piss, I'm sure the beer glasses are pissed in to save money ;-) Heck, the beer is so bad nobody can possibly tell the difference anyway.
Re: [VERY OT] What hourly rate to charge for programming?
Ahh, you have Budweiser in Australia too, then? ;) Worse: Fosters. And imitation Guiness. Also Tooheys, (Four-X, rednecked Queensland favourite), Hahn, etc. Home-brew kits are extremely popular. Australians are the Leonardo Da Vinci's of piss artists - master strokes in the beer swilling. Our ex Prime Minister Bob Hawke was a sculling champion at Oxford University, heh heh.
RE: [OT] What hourly rate to charge for programming?
What kind of thread is this? I ask a question about modperl on NT and I get riddled from the list for using NT. Then we have a thread that goes for two days about hourly charges? What's up with this ..This should be for questions about modperl. Give it a rest, I'm tired of throwing that thread away. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 8:41 AM To: brian moseley; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [OT] What hourly rate to charge for programming? Yes, they probably have tons of experience too, which I don't have, and I'm not in Melbourne. I used to work in Melbourne and never saw any jobs for $80 - $100 per hour, apart from doctors. I'll go have another look. I need to work from home too which is a major barrier to employment. - Original Message - From: brian moseley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 11:18 PM Subject: Re: [OT] What hourly rate to charge for programming? On Wed, 10 Oct 2001, Gunther Birznieks wrote: At 05:14 PM 10/10/2001, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd like to know where I can get paid more than AU$10/hour (US$4.90 to US$5 per hour) for my mod_perl programming... You guys in America get $100US per hour?! My god, I'm in the wrong country... America is richer than Australia. gnudev, i don't know in what part of the country you're working, but i know several people in melbourne who are routinely getting paid au$80-100/hr for php, javascript/dhtml and ui design work. i haven't seen any perl work around, but then i haven't been looking either.
Re: [OT] What hourly rate to charge for programming?
Purcell, Scott wrote: What kind of thread is this? I ask a question about modperl on NT and I get riddled from the list for using NT. Then we have a thread that goes for two days about hourly charges? What did you expect? You shoulda been using Win2K! *duck*
Re: [VERY OT] What hourly rate to charge for programming?
On Thu, 11 Oct 2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And imitation Guiness. Also Tooheys, (Four-X, rednecked Queensland favourite), Hahn, etc. Home-brew imitation guinness is still better than any of the rest. altho when it's not available i a quite happy with vb!
Re: What hourly rate to charge for programming?
Hello, Many factors are to be taken into account to establish a base line. As you say, experience is one. It determines the experience you will provide your client with: your ability to solve their problems, to meet their requirements, to react to constraints, be technical or not, to innovate, etc... [snip] I agree experience should be a factor. But more important is your personal workload. I typically charge $100/hr, and get it. I have a few customers that think this is too high. I have told a couple that I will work for $75 or $80, when I have the time. So if work is slow, I work for the lower rate. When I have more work than I can handle, I only work for $100, and the $75 /hr clients have to wait. They don't like it, but hey, that's how the market economy works. I don't especially like working for $75 either, but will take the work if that is all I have. -- Danny Aldham Providing Certified Internetworking Solutions to Business www.postino.com E-Mail, Web Servers, Web Databases, SQL PHP Perl
Re: What hourly rate to charge for programming?
Hello, Many factors are to be taken into account to establish a base line. As you say, experience is one. It determines the experience you will provide your client with: your ability to solve their problems, to meet their requirements, to react to constraints, be technical or not, to innovate, etc... Let's say that one developper, say A, charges 100USD/hour, but accomplishes in an hour what requires 3 hours for developper B. Add to that that solutions developped by A are truly innovative - thus providing its clients with the ability to communicate about their high tech profile - and always offer a smooth ride, compared to B solutions that turn to be always about right. Let's say that B charges 35 USD an hour. What's going to happen ? At first, clients not knowing A and B, being sollicited by B will go for B, I guess. But as soon as they know about A, they may reconsider their choice. Don't you think so ? So I thing it all narrows down to finding if your ratio Client-Experience-Satisfaction/cost (cost being f(rate)) is right. Some Open Source programmer, aboard the Bayonne project, one proposed to charge my company USD100 an hour. But this programmer had a high tech profile that allowed him to quicky meet my requirements. So it was just fine for us. My company also charges about USD100 an hour, for high tech services. Fellows doing the job all have Ph.D., deep field involvement and understanding, and have been providing innovative developpement for more than 10 years. Hope this will help you set up your baseline. Franck Franck PORCHER, Ph.D. Essential Software [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.esoft.pf/ Tél: (689) 56 23 95
Re: What hourly rate to charge for programming?
Philip Mak wrote, asking about whether he's chargin the right hourly rate. He describes his background as: I've had about two years of experience with perl, and one year of experience with mod_perl and MySQL. Business was so-so for me last month; everybody froze up. I feel for you if you're consulting. So let me offer you some advice. Take it for what it's worth ;-). The formula is this: Figure out what you want to make - something appropriate given your experience and ability, and the region in which you typically operate. Let's start with a nice round figure of $40,000 US dollars. Take the number of working hours in a year and divide them in half (40 hours a week * 50 working weeks a year) / 2 = 1000 hours. (The idea is that you shouldn't be billing more than half your working hours; if you are, then you aren't doing other things you need to do in order to sustain a business.) Now take the amount you want to make and divide it by the number of hours you came up with above ($40,000 / 1,000). You get $40. That's your target hourly rate. And despite what they high-flying .com weanies were saying a year ago, that's going to be a nice living for a young guy unless you're smack in the middle of a high-cost area and can't bother to cook your own meals. Money doesn't make you happy. (I lived like a church mouse as a grad student with my wife and son, and really those were the best days of my life!) After you've been working for 5+ years and have a lot of refer- ences and repeat business, you'll be able to charge considerably more because you'll just be faster at what you do and capable of writing better, more reliable systems and code. (I am a much, much better Perl coder than I was seven years ago when I first started using it. I rarely have any problems with those silly tests some employers dump on you when you first negotiate a con- tract; usually I end up correcting a few mistakes on the part of the testers. And I'm a decent mentor to junior programmers. As a result I charge a lot more. And I'm able to compete favorably against big shops who hire programmers out for $120-300 per hour, especially in major urban areas.) About the billable hours thing: You really have to be careful not to overbill. If you do some code that's usable by more than one current client, don't charge them both. And make sure to give them good reports on what you're doing. Clients like to know what they're paying for. If you're not sure how long a job will take, negotiate a stepped contract in which you spend, say, a week working on a problem then report on your progress at the end of the week so you and your employer can decide whether it's worth going on to the next step. There's an old joke about a consultant who dies at age 42 of a heart attack. You have to be a Christian of some stripe to find this funny, so my apologies to Muslims, Hindus, etc. Anyway, he ascends to the pearly gates and, upon meeting Saint Peter, accosts him saying, Why was I taken so young? I was only forty-two! Saint Peter fumbles with his books a moment and responds, That's funny, but according to your billing records you're seventy three. -- Richard Goerwitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel: 401 438 8978
[OT] Re: What hourly rate to charge for programming?
Hi, you might want to check the past issues of Linux Journal, there was a series of articles on becoming a consultant / independent programmer a few months ago. -- ___ Robin Berjon [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- CTO k n o w s c a p e : // venture knowledge agency www.knowscape.com --- A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any other invention, with the possible exceptions of handguns and Tequila.
[OT] Re: What hourly rate to charge for programming?
Now take the amount you want to make and divide it by the number of hours you came up with above ($40,000 / 1,000). You get $40. That's your target hourly rate. And despite what they high-flying .com weanies were saying a year ago, that's going to be a nice living for a young guy unless you're smack in the middle of a high-cost area and can't bother to cook your own meals. Don't forget that self-employed people in the US must pay considerably more in social security, as well as covering the full cost of their own health insurance and other needed benefits. $40K as a consultant is much less spendable money than $40K as an employee. - Perrin
Re: [OT] Re: What hourly rate to charge for programming?
Perrin Harkins wrote: Now take the amount you want to make and divide it by the number of hours you came up with above ($40,000 / 1,000). You get $40. That's your target hourly rate. And despite what they high-flying .com weanies were saying a year ago, that's going to be a nice living for a young guy unless you're smack in the middle of a high-cost area and can't bother to cook your own meals. Don't forget that self-employed people in the US must pay considerably more in social security, as well as covering the full cost of their own health insurance and other needed benefits. $40K as a consultant is much less spendable money than $40K as an employee. - Perrin Yes, that's an additional 7.5% for social security. In addition, you have to take care of your own benefits, etc. Market downturns can be a better time for contract work over full-time, especially since stock options don't mean what they do during an upturn. ;-) And many employers don't have the resources to take on full-time staff. I'd recommend that you start to inch up your rate with new clients, and that you try and see what your market will bear. Your target should be $100+ in the U.S. for basic consulting and more for mod_perl specific work, again if your market will bear it. Good Luck, Ed
Re: [OT] Re: What hourly rate to charge for programming?
Now take the amount you want to make and divide it by the number of hours you came up with above ($40,000 / 1,000). You get $40. That's your target hourly rate. $40K as a consultant is much less spendable money than $40K as an employee. Yes, that's an additional 7.5% for social security. In addition, you have to take care of your own benefits, etc. I'd recommend that you start to inch up your rate with new clients, and that you try and see what your market will bear. I agree with this; but at the same time take your own circumstances into consideration: If you're young, don't live a profligate life- style, and like people and work, then don't worry about the money so much. Someone suggested charging $100/hour - more for mod_perl work. I have a different slant. I like mod_perl and like to encourage its use. I charge the same rate to everbody whether it's mod_perl or not. And I also usually try to work training into contracts; i.e., I try to work things out so that I not only cut mod_perl (or Emb- perl) code for clients, but also get to train their people on what I'm doing, if they aren't already intimately familiar with the tech- nology. Sometimes, actually, training is all the client wants. Another thought: For clients who keep coming back for more work, and who are flexi- ble about schedules, you should consider charging a lower rate. It is extremely valuable to have clients around that you can go to when you're between other jobs. Hang onto them. Give them a break if that helps. My _family_ actually sometimes pressures me to lower rates. I've been doing work lately for (among others) a big environmentalist nonprofit near Washington. My fifteen year-old son, who is a rabid environmentalist, said I should charge them less because the work they are doing is so valuable to the community. I told him it meant less money in his pocket as well as mine. He said he didn't care, so I dropped my rates ten percent :-). The bottom line is that it's really not about the money. If you're good and you like people, and you don't think God put on earth to drive a BMW and eat out every night, then you'll find you can get along quite well charging reasonable rates. Your clients will love you. You'll be a happy guy. And you'll help spread open-source technology all around. -- Richard Goerwitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel: 401 438 8978
Re: [OT] Re: What hourly rate to charge for programming?
Hi, This thread is very off-topic here but it's interresting and maybe it should go to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or somewhere else. I think a lot of people have many problems with all of those public-relations matters, especially when they want to start working as an independent programmer. A big problem is also not only how much to charge, but how to actually find clients, etc. I see many experienced programmers here who could share their knowlegde with people just starting their career. I'm sure that there are a lot of easier works out there, maybe not for $40/h but $20/h or even less, but it's not so easy to find them for people who don't know that market very well. Anyone interrested? I suggest a move to [EMAIL PROTECTED] list. - RaFaL Pocztarski. Now take the amount you want to make and divide it by the number of hours you came up with above ($40,000 / 1,000). You get $40. That's your target hourly rate. $40K as a consultant is much less spendable money than $40K as an employee. Yes, that's an additional 7.5% for social security. In addition, you have to take care of your own benefits, etc. I'd recommend that you start to inch up your rate with new clients, and that you try and see what your market will bear.
What hourly rate to charge for programming?
I've had about two years of experience with perl, and one year of experience with mod_perl and MySQL. I've been doing contract programming jobs for people and charged by the hour. The rate I currently charge them ($40) was kind of chosen randomly. I'd like to find out if this figure is too high/too low. Does anyone here have any experiences to share?
Re: What hourly rate to charge for programming?
I've had about two years of experience with perl, and one year of experience with mod_perl and MySQL. I've been doing contract programming jobs for people and charged by the hour. The rate I currently charge them ($40) was kind of chosen randomly. I'd like to find out if this figure is too high/too low. Does anyone here have any experiences to share? Contract programming is entirely different from salaried work. Assuming you live in the United States and are charging US dollars, Consider: Taxes (including an additional self-employment tax). Insurance (health, general liability, and possibly others) (Home) Office Expenses -- stuff you use to generate invoices, stuff you use to do your actual work if done in your home, rent, etc. Continued education -- consultants are expected to be experts. Greater risk. You generally will also never work as much as you'd like to. Your clients also get to wash their hands of you completely. Your expenses are a direct tax writeoff, rather than an additional accounting headache. After deducting all of the above, a $40/hr rate starts looking more like an $18/hr rate, and maybe even less. Consultants don't _just_ bill $100/hr because they're scam artists. :) You're charging effectively half of what a salaried perl/mysql hacker costs. Humility is a valuable business trait, but I'm positive you're worth more than you're charging. --- Michael Bacarella | 545 Eighth Ave #401 | New York, NY 10018 Systems Analysis Support | [EMAIL PROTECTED] Managed Services | 212 946-1038
Re: [VOT] What hourly rate to charge for programming?
Hey guys..MASSIVELY OFF TOPIC!! :( :( :( At 12:24 AM 10/3/2001 -0400, Michael Bacarella wrote: I've had about two years of experience with perl, and one year of experience with mod_perl and MySQL. I've been doing contract programming jobs for people and charged by the hour. The rate I currently charge them ($40) was kind of chosen randomly. I'd like to find out if this figure is too high/too low. Does anyone here have any experiences to share? Contract programming is entirely different from salaried work. Assuming you live in the United States and are charging US dollars, Consider: Taxes (including an additional self-employment tax). Insurance (health, general liability, and possibly others) (Home) Office Expenses -- stuff you use to generate invoices, stuff you use to do your actual work if done in your home, rent, etc. Continued education -- consultants are expected to be experts. Greater risk. You generally will also never work as much as you'd like to. Your clients also get to wash their hands of you completely. Your expenses are a direct tax writeoff, rather than an additional accounting headache. After deducting all of the above, a $40/hr rate starts looking more like an $18/hr rate, and maybe even less. Consultants don't _just_ bill $100/hr because they're scam artists. :) It depends on your location of course. I notice that Michael is in Manhattan which is a pretty expensive salary area of the USA. And it also depends on how long you are on a contract -- 6 months? A year at a time? or just a week or two to solve a specialized problem? You're charging effectively half of what a salaried perl/mysql hacker costs. Humility is a valuable business trait, but I'm positive you're worth more than you're charging. Maybe.
Re: What hourly rate to charge for programming?
Well put...and one more itemwhen you invoice your customer, say net 30, they intentially sit on it for 60 days, then cut and date the check on the 61st day, then keep it in their desk for another two weeks, so what out for cash flow and future value of money On Wed, 3 Oct 2001, Michael Bacarella wrote: I've had about two years of experience with perl, and one year of experience with mod_perl and MySQL. I've been doing contract programming jobs for people and charged by the hour. The rate I currently charge them ($40) was kind of chosen randomly. I'd like to find out if this figure is too high/too low. Does anyone here have any experiences to share? Contract programming is entirely different from salaried work. Assuming you live in the United States and are charging US dollars, Consider: Taxes (including an additional self-employment tax). Insurance (health, general liability, and possibly others) (Home) Office Expenses -- stuff you use to generate invoices, stuff you use to do your actual work if done in your home, rent, etc. Continued education -- consultants are expected to be experts. Greater risk. You generally will also never work as much as you'd like to. Your clients also get to wash their hands of you completely. Your expenses are a direct tax writeoff, rather than an additional accounting headache. After deducting all of the above, a $40/hr rate starts looking more like an $18/hr rate, and maybe even less. Consultants don't _just_ bill $100/hr because they're scam artists. :) You're charging effectively half of what a salaried perl/mysql hacker costs. Humility is a valuable business trait, but I'm positive you're worth more than you're charging. --- Michael Bacarella | 545 Eighth Ave #401 | New York, NY 10018 Systems Analysis Support | [EMAIL PROTECTED] Managed Services | 212 946-1038 -- - Medi Montaseri [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unix Distributed Systems EngineerHTTP://www.CyberShell.com CyberShell Engineering -
Re: What hourly rate to charge for programming?
I've had about two years of experience with perl, and one year of experience with mod_perl and MySQL. I've been doing contract programming jobs for people and charged by the hour. The rate I currently charge them ($40) was kind of chosen randomly. I'd like to find out if this figure is too high/too low. Does anyone here have any experiences to share? My company normally does short term work (less than a month). Rates are along the lines of $150/hour for the really short stuff, on down to $100/hour for well-defined, known length contract stuff. Don't cheat yourself ... as a freelance, if they are not willing to put up $80 to $100 an hour, they may not be worth your time by the time you fool with actually getting their business (your own little marketing dept :-) , administrative stuff to document the project, taxes, and an occasional trip to your para-legal or attorney. Thats just my $0.02 (er, 4 minutes, rounds up to 1/4 hour, thats $40 dude) -Bryan
