Re: [MOSAIC] Determining Importance
I would love to see the pictures. What a great idea! Sherry Sent from my iPhone On Feb 19, 2012, at 7:29 PM, DONNA FOX wrote: > > I'd like to share a strategy that has worked well for me in the past, > especially with nonfiction. Has anybody ever heard of an Information Walk? In > a nut shell what you do is chunk the text you are working with into sections > or by subtitles, and assign groups of 2-4 students to be responsible for each > passage. The students collaborate in creating a poster with the information > required by the teacher. Fpr example the class I work in we recently did this > with main idea. We had students make a 4 square on their posters and one > square was labeled Main Idea, Supporting Details, Important vocabulary, and > Visualization. > However, the fun starts when you hang them around your classroom or an empty > hallway. Each student is given 3-4 post it notes and a set of 4-5 stickers or > stars. As they roam around and learn from each other they have to leave post > it note comments, and stickers next to new and interesting information that > they acquired from one another. It really fosters student to student > learning, and they are so excited to get their poster back to see what the > others wrote. > > I have done this same activity for Determining Importance. Instead of 4 > squares a I have them make 2 columns one titled Important Information and the > other Interesting. You can adapt this to almost anything, and even use this > to activate schema for prior knowledge or as a post reading activity. > And of course the big question should always be " Why is this important?" > thank you Renee for that! > > Earlier todayI tried to send my pics with this email but it bounced back to > me. If anybody would like to see a photo of the finished product just email > me personally and I will send it to you. > This activity has been very successful, and as you well know the enthusiasm > when you hand students post it notes and stickers is overwhelming. Also, I > love setting it up outside of the classroomfor some reason the different > environment adds to the excitement when students go on their Information > Walk! > > Donna > Intervention Gr3/4 > > > > On Sun, Feb 19, 2012 at 7:07 PM, Renee wrote: > >> I would say that determining importance is important in getting to the main >> idea, and establishing the main idea is helpful in determining importance. >> Big help, huh? >> >> Kids need to know both. Determining importance helps them remember and >> retell stories. But knowing the main idea is useful in recommending books to >> other people; it reduces things down to one or two sentences. >> >> Renee >> >> On Feb 19, 2012, at 12:03 PM, evelia cadet wrote: >> >>> Are determining importance and finding the author's main idea the same >>> thing? If they are not, are they related? How? HELP! >>> >>> Evelia >>> >>> Sent from my Windows Phone >>> >>> -Original Message- >>> From: Palmer, Jennifer >>> Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2012 9:23 AM >>> To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group >>> Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Determining Importance >>> >>> It's the testing culture Renee. We test low level and that drives >>> instruction. Think about main idea ... And it's relationship to what we >>> are talking about. Determining importance becomes a game to guess what >>> test authors feel is important... >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Feb 19, 2012, at 12:01 PM, "Renee" wrote: >>> I wonder what would happen if we just asked a student, "Why is this important?" I'm thinking in a context, for example, of my own lesson, when the student asked how Washington's face got on Mount Rushmore. These were third graders. I can easily imagine a student ansswering, "it isn't" and I could also easily imagine a student giving a reason, maybe something like, "well, because he was so important that they put him on a mountain so how did that happen?" I think it's a good question: Why is this important? It has that lovely open-endedness that helps us learn what's going on the mind of a student. And by the way in my substituting travels to various classrooms, I am finding every year that it's harder and harder to get kids to answer open-ended questions with any kind of confidence. That frightens me. Renee On Feb 18, 2012, at 1:49 PM, Palmer, Jennifer wrote: > I agree Renee. What I often do is spend a little time talking about our > purpose for reading first and letting that guide the discussion ... I > think it was Kylie Beers that uses the example of a text that is a > description of a beautiful home. An interior decorator, a real estate > agent and a thief, all would find different things in the text to be > important because their purposes for reading would be quite different. >>
Re: [MOSAIC] Determining Importance
I'm new to the group and I am loving it all! Cathy from Salt Spring On 2012-02-19, at 8:34 PM, evelia cadet wrote: > Thank you Renee and all of you for the great comments and ideas. I love this > group!! > > Evelia > >> From: phoenix...@sbcglobal.net >> Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 16:07:51 -0800 >> To: mosaic@literacyworkshop.org >> Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Determining Importance >> >> I would say that determining importance is important in getting to >> the main idea, and establishing the main idea is helpful in >> determining importance. Big help, huh? >> >> Kids need to know both. Determining importance helps them remember >> and retell stories. But knowing the main idea is useful in >> recommending books to other people; it reduces things down to one or >> two sentences. >> >> Renee >> >> On Feb 19, 2012, at 12:03 PM, evelia cadet wrote: >> >>> Are determining importance and finding the author's main idea the >>> same thing? If they are not, are they related? How? HELP! >>> >>> Evelia >>> >>> Sent from my Windows Phone >>> >>> -Original Message- >>> From: Palmer, Jennifer >>> Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2012 9:23 AM >>> To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group >>> Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Determining Importance >>> >>> It's the testing culture Renee. We test low level and that drives >>> instruction. Think about main idea ... And it's relationship to >>> what we are talking about. Determining importance becomes a game to >>> guess what test authors feel is important... >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Feb 19, 2012, at 12:01 PM, "Renee" >>> wrote: >>> I wonder what would happen if we just asked a student, "Why is this important?" I'm thinking in a context, for example, of my own lesson, when the student asked how Washington's face got on Mount Rushmore. These were third graders. I can easily imagine a student ansswering, "it isn't" and I could also easily imagine a student giving a reason, maybe something like, "well, because he was so important that they put him on a mountain so how did that happen?" I think it's a good question: Why is this important? It has that lovely open-endedness that helps us learn what's going on the mind of a student. And by the way in my substituting travels to various classrooms, I am finding every year that it's harder and harder to get kids to answer open-ended questions with any kind of confidence. That frightens me. Renee On Feb 18, 2012, at 1:49 PM, Palmer, Jennifer wrote: > I agree Renee. What I often do is spend a little time talking > about our purpose for reading first and letting that guide the > discussion ... I think it was Kylie Beers that uses the example > of a text that is a description of a beautiful home. An interior > decorator, a real estate agent and a thief, all would find > different things in the text to be important because their > purposes for reading would be quite different. It is possible to store the mind with a million facts and still be entirely uneducated. ~ Alec Bourne ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/ mosaic_literacyworkshop.org Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive >>> >>> ___ >>> Mosaic mailing list >>> Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org >>> To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to >>> http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/ >>> mosaic_literacyworkshop.org >>> >>> Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive >>> >>> >>> ___ >>> Mosaic mailing list >>> Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org >>> To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to >>> http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/ >>> mosaic_literacyworkshop.org >>> >>> Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive >>> >> >> Public Education: >> It's a right, not a race. >> >> >> ___ >> Mosaic mailing list >> Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org >> To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to >> http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org >> >> Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive >> > > ___ > Mosaic mailing list > Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org > To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to > http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org > > Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive > __
Re: [MOSAIC] Determining Importance
Thank you Renee and all of you for the great comments and ideas. I love this group!! Evelia > From: phoenix...@sbcglobal.net > Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 16:07:51 -0800 > To: mosaic@literacyworkshop.org > Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Determining Importance > > I would say that determining importance is important in getting to > the main idea, and establishing the main idea is helpful in > determining importance. Big help, huh? > > Kids need to know both. Determining importance helps them remember > and retell stories. But knowing the main idea is useful in > recommending books to other people; it reduces things down to one or > two sentences. > > Renee > > On Feb 19, 2012, at 12:03 PM, evelia cadet wrote: > > > Are determining importance and finding the author's main idea the > > same thing? If they are not, are they related? How? HELP! > > > > Evelia > > > > Sent from my Windows Phone > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Palmer, Jennifer > > Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2012 9:23 AM > > To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group > > Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Determining Importance > > > > It's the testing culture Renee. We test low level and that drives > > instruction. Think about main idea ... And it's relationship to > > what we are talking about. Determining importance becomes a game to > > guess what test authors feel is important... > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On Feb 19, 2012, at 12:01 PM, "Renee" > > wrote: > > > >> I wonder what would happen if we just asked a student, "Why is > >> this important?" I'm thinking in a context, for example, of my own > >> lesson, when the student asked how Washington's face got on Mount > >> Rushmore. These were third graders. I can easily imagine a student > >> ansswering, "it isn't" and I could also easily imagine a student > >> giving a reason, maybe something like, "well, because he was so > >> important that they put him on a mountain so how did that happen?" > >> > >> I think it's a good question: Why is this important? It has that > >> lovely open-endedness that helps us learn what's going on the mind > >> of a student. > >> > >> And by the way in my substituting travels to various > >> classrooms, I am finding every year that it's harder and harder to > >> get kids to answer open-ended questions with any kind of > >> confidence. That frightens me. > >> > >> Renee > >> > >> On Feb 18, 2012, at 1:49 PM, Palmer, Jennifer wrote: > >> > >>> I agree Renee. What I often do is spend a little time talking > >>> about our purpose for reading first and letting that guide the > >>> discussion ... I think it was Kylie Beers that uses the example > >>> of a text that is a description of a beautiful home. An interior > >>> decorator, a real estate agent and a thief, all would find > >>> different things in the text to be important because their > >>> purposes for reading would be quite different. > >> > >> It is possible to store the mind with a million facts and still be > >> entirely uneducated. > >> ~ Alec Bourne > >> > >> > >> ___ > >> Mosaic mailing list > >> Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org > >> To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to > >> http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/ > >> mosaic_literacyworkshop.org > >> > >> Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive > >> > > > > ___ > > Mosaic mailing list > > Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org > > To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to > > http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/ > > mosaic_literacyworkshop.org > > > > Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive > > > > > > ___ > > Mosaic mailing list > > Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org > > To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to > > http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/ > > mosaic_literacyworkshop.org > > > > Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive > > > > Public Education: > It's a right, not a race. > > > ___ > Mosaic mailing list > Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org > To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to > http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org > > Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive > ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive
Re: [MOSAIC] Our list...
Very thoughtful, Jennifer. I feel like I have to share mine because it seems to bleed on issue after issue. I know it's not so cool to share right now and it isn't what Jennifer envisioned. but... I am made beyond crazy when "people" consider students (and teachers) as identical clones, then "deliver" programs based on that craziness! My buttons go wild! Then the rest of the house of cards is based on this single silly idea which victimizes so many of us and ours today. Sorry--guess I just couldn't resist going public My button is REALLY hot! On Sunday, February 19, 2012, Palmer, Jennifer wrote: > Thank you everyone for the great discussion this weekend!! :-) > > Let's make a pact, shall we? Let's take a sec to privately consider our hot button issues. We all have the topic or issue that pushes an emotional button. (Mine are Open Court Reading Series and those $&@!! Test Prep books that start appearing this time of year. ) When we see a post that pushes an emotional button, let's stop first and ask some questions. Find out whether a particular vocabulary word means what you think it means. > > Asking questions and explaining our own reasoning seems to help us all get a lot out of our conversation as evidenced by this weekend. > > You guys are the best... And the reason I love Mosaic!!! > Jennifer > > Sent from my iPhone > ___ > Mosaic mailing list > Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org > To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to > http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org > > Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive > > -- "Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after." Henry David Thoreau ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive
Re: [MOSAIC] Determining Importance
During this discussion, I keep thinking of the very clever posts on Facebook the last couple of weeks and how they relate to POV and some comments on here. Most of them are career-related and are a series of pictures showing items like "This is what my boss thinks I do," and "This is what my students think I do," and a few more that represent other humorous perspectives. If someone could explain it better, I'd be tickled. They are so clever and ripe with opportunities for teaching. My mind just goes crazy with each one I see. On Sunday, February 19, 2012, Palmer, Jennifer wrote: > Thank you !!! Yes,it was Tovani!! > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Feb 19, 2012, at 5:34 PM, "Kim Thompson" wrote: > >> Was it not Chris Tovani who used this example (different purposes - >> decorator / real estate agent, and a thief) in her book, "I Read It But I >> Don't Get It"? Excellent conversation. >> >> "Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group" >> > > ___ > Mosaic mailing list > Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org > To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to > http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org > > Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive > > -- "Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after." Henry David Thoreau ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive
Re: [MOSAIC] Determining Importance
Love it - great idea. Am going to try it asap! Sally On 2/19/12 4:29 PM, "donn...@optonline.net" wrote: > > I'd like to share a strategy that has worked well for me in the past, > especially with nonfiction. Has anybody ever heard of an Information > Walk? In a nut shell what you do is chunk the text you are working with > into sections or by subtitles, and assign groups of 2-4 students to be > responsible for each passage. The students collaborate in creating a > poster with the information required by the teacher. Fpr example the > class I work in we recently did this with main idea. We had students > make a 4 square on their posters and one square was labeled Main Idea, > Supporting Details, Important vocabulary, and Visualization. > However, the fun starts when you hang them around your classroom or an > empty hallway. Each student is given 3-4 post it notes and a set of 4-5 > stickers or stars. As they roam around and learn from each other they > have to leave post it note comments, and stickers next to new and > interesting information that they acquired from one another. It really > fosters student to student learning, and they are so excited to get > their poster back to see what the others wrote. > > I have done this same activity for Determining Importance. Instead of 4 > squares a I have them make 2 columns one titled Important Information > and the other Interesting. You can adapt this to almost anything, and > even use this to activate schema for prior knowledge or as a post > reading activity. > And of course the big question should always be " Why is this > important?" thank you Renee for that! > > Earlier todayI tried to send my pics with this email but it bounced > back to me. If anybody would like to see a photo of the finished product > just email me personally and I will send it to you. > This activity has been very successful, and as you well know the > enthusiasm when you hand students post it notes and stickers is > overwhelming. Also, I love setting it up outside of the classroomfor > some reason the different environment adds to the excitement when > students go on their Information Walk! > > Donna > Intervention Gr3/4 > > > > On Sun, Feb 19, 2012 at 7:07 PM, Renee wrote: > >> I would say that determining importance is important in getting to the >> main idea, and establishing the main idea is helpful in determining >> importance. Big help, huh? >> >> Kids need to know both. Determining importance helps them remember and >> retell stories. But knowing the main idea is useful in recommending >> books to other people; it reduces things down to one or two sentences. >> >> Renee >> >> On Feb 19, 2012, at 12:03 PM, evelia cadet wrote: >> >>> Are determining importance and finding the author's main idea the >>> same thing? If they are not, are they related? How? HELP! >>> >>> Evelia >>> >>> Sent from my Windows Phone >>> >>> -Original Message- >>> From: Palmer, Jennifer >>> Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2012 9:23 AM >>> To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group >>> Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Determining Importance >>> >>> It's the testing culture Renee. We test low level and that drives >>> instruction. Think about main idea ... And it's relationship to what >>> we are talking about. Determining importance becomes a game to guess >>> what test authors feel is important... >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Feb 19, 2012, at 12:01 PM, "Renee" >>> wrote: >>> I wonder what would happen if we just asked a student, "Why is this important?" I'm thinking in a context, for example, of my own lesson, when the student asked how Washington's face got on Mount Rushmore. These were third graders. I can easily imagine a student ansswering, "it isn't" and I could also easily imagine a student giving a reason, maybe something like, "well, because he was so important that they put him on a mountain so how did that happen?" I think it's a good question: Why is this important? It has that lovely open-endedness that helps us learn what's going on the mind of a student. And by the way in my substituting travels to various classrooms, I am finding every year that it's harder and harder to get kids to answer open-ended questions with any kind of confidence. That frightens me. Renee On Feb 18, 2012, at 1:49 PM, Palmer, Jennifer wrote: > I agree Renee. What I often do is spend a little time talking > about our purpose for reading first and letting that guide the > discussion ... I think it was Kylie Beers that uses the example of > a text that is a description of a beautiful home. An interior > decorator, a real estate agent and a thief, all would find > different things in the text to be important because their > purposes for reading would be quite different. It is possible to store the mind with a
[MOSAIC] Our list...
Thank you everyone for the great discussion this weekend!! :-) Let's make a pact, shall we? Let's take a sec to privately consider our hot button issues. We all have the topic or issue that pushes an emotional button. (Mine are Open Court Reading Series and those $&@!! Test Prep books that start appearing this time of year. ) When we see a post that pushes an emotional button, let's stop first and ask some questions. Find out whether a particular vocabulary word means what you think it means. Asking questions and explaining our own reasoning seems to help us all get a lot out of our conversation as evidenced by this weekend. You guys are the best... And the reason I love Mosaic!!! Jennifer Sent from my iPhone ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive
Re: [MOSAIC] Determining Importance
Thank you !!! Yes,it was Tovani!! Sent from my iPhone On Feb 19, 2012, at 5:34 PM, "Kim Thompson" wrote: > Was it not Chris Tovani who used this example (different purposes - > decorator / real estate agent, and a thief) in her book, "I Read It But I > Don't Get It"? Excellent conversation. > > "Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group" > ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive
Re: [MOSAIC] Reader Writer Workshop Resources
Hi there, The website is the literacy curriculum page for my district, the Wachusett Regional School District in Central Massachusetts. The URL is http://www.wrsd.net/literacy/ Enjoy, Charlene Griffin Instructional Coach Wachusett Regional School District - Original Message - From: "Terry" To: "Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group" Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2012 5:37:26 PM Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Reader Writer Workshop Resources Will you post the link to the school website you are referring to? I would love to check it out. Terry On Sun, Feb 19, 2012 at 1:15 PM, Sandy Stevens wrote: > Charlene, > > I love your school's website. I got lost in for over an hour. > Unfortunately, I was unable to acces your link to the videos. :( > > I am working on my Reading Specialist license and hopt to be a literacy > coach someday. I have you rwebsite bookmarked as a great resource. > > Sandy > > ___ > Mosaic mailing list > Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org > To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to > http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org > > Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive > > -- *Stress (substitue "worry") is a form of atheism; it infers that you do not believe God is in control.* * * `´*:-.,_,.-:*´`´*:-,_,.-:*´`´*:-.,_,.-:*´`´*: ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive
Re: [MOSAIC] Determining Importance
I'd like to share a strategy that has worked well for me in the past, especially with nonfiction. Has anybody ever heard of an Information Walk? In a nut shell what you do is chunk the text you are working with into sections or by subtitles, and assign groups of 2-4 students to be responsible for each passage. The students collaborate in creating a poster with the information required by the teacher. Fpr example the class I work in we recently did this with main idea. We had students make a 4 square on their posters and one square was labeled Main Idea, Supporting Details, Important vocabulary, and Visualization. However, the fun starts when you hang them around your classroom or an empty hallway. Each student is given 3-4 post it notes and a set of 4-5 stickers or stars. As they roam around and learn from each other they have to leave post it note comments, and stickers next to new and interesting information that they acquired from one another. It really fosters student to student learning, and they are so excited to get their poster back to see what the others wrote. I have done this same activity for Determining Importance. Instead of 4 squares a I have them make 2 columns one titled Important Information and the other Interesting. You can adapt this to almost anything, and even use this to activate schema for prior knowledge or as a post reading activity. And of course the big question should always be " Why is this important?" thank you Renee for that! Earlier todayI tried to send my pics with this email but it bounced back to me. If anybody would like to see a photo of the finished product just email me personally and I will send it to you. This activity has been very successful, and as you well know the enthusiasm when you hand students post it notes and stickers is overwhelming. Also, I love setting it up outside of the classroomfor some reason the different environment adds to the excitement when students go on their Information Walk! Donna Intervention Gr3/4 On Sun, Feb 19, 2012 at 7:07 PM, Renee wrote: I would say that determining importance is important in getting to the main idea, and establishing the main idea is helpful in determining importance. Big help, huh? Kids need to know both. Determining importance helps them remember and retell stories. But knowing the main idea is useful in recommending books to other people; it reduces things down to one or two sentences. Renee On Feb 19, 2012, at 12:03 PM, evelia cadet wrote: Are determining importance and finding the author's main idea the same thing? If they are not, are they related? How? HELP! Evelia Sent from my Windows Phone -Original Message- From: Palmer, Jennifer Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2012 9:23 AM To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Determining Importance It's the testing culture Renee. We test low level and that drives instruction. Think about main idea ... And it's relationship to what we are talking about. Determining importance becomes a game to guess what test authors feel is important... Sent from my iPhone On Feb 19, 2012, at 12:01 PM, "Renee" wrote: I wonder what would happen if we just asked a student, "Why is this important?" I'm thinking in a context, for example, of my own lesson, when the student asked how Washington's face got on Mount Rushmore. These were third graders. I can easily imagine a student ansswering, "it isn't" and I could also easily imagine a student giving a reason, maybe something like, "well, because he was so important that they put him on a mountain so how did that happen?" I think it's a good question: Why is this important? It has that lovely open-endedness that helps us learn what's going on the mind of a student. And by the way in my substituting travels to various classrooms, I am finding every year that it's harder and harder to get kids to answer open-ended questions with any kind of confidence. That frightens me. Renee On Feb 18, 2012, at 1:49 PM, Palmer, Jennifer wrote: I agree Renee. What I often do is spend a little time talking about our purpose for reading first and letting that guide the discussion ... I think it was Kylie Beers that uses the example of a text that is a description of a beautiful home. An interior decorator, a real estate agent and a thief, all would find different things in the text to be important because their purposes for reading would be quite different. It is possible to store the mind with a million facts and still be entirely uneducated. ~ Alec Bourne ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/ mosaic_literacyworkshop.org Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive ___ Mosaic ma
Re: [MOSAIC] Determining Importance
I would say that determining importance is important in getting to the main idea, and establishing the main idea is helpful in determining importance. Big help, huh? Kids need to know both. Determining importance helps them remember and retell stories. But knowing the main idea is useful in recommending books to other people; it reduces things down to one or two sentences. Renee On Feb 19, 2012, at 12:03 PM, evelia cadet wrote: Are determining importance and finding the author's main idea the same thing? If they are not, are they related? How? HELP! Evelia Sent from my Windows Phone -Original Message- From: Palmer, Jennifer Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2012 9:23 AM To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Determining Importance It's the testing culture Renee. We test low level and that drives instruction. Think about main idea ... And it's relationship to what we are talking about. Determining importance becomes a game to guess what test authors feel is important... Sent from my iPhone On Feb 19, 2012, at 12:01 PM, "Renee" wrote: I wonder what would happen if we just asked a student, "Why is this important?" I'm thinking in a context, for example, of my own lesson, when the student asked how Washington's face got on Mount Rushmore. These were third graders. I can easily imagine a student ansswering, "it isn't" and I could also easily imagine a student giving a reason, maybe something like, "well, because he was so important that they put him on a mountain so how did that happen?" I think it's a good question: Why is this important? It has that lovely open-endedness that helps us learn what's going on the mind of a student. And by the way in my substituting travels to various classrooms, I am finding every year that it's harder and harder to get kids to answer open-ended questions with any kind of confidence. That frightens me. Renee On Feb 18, 2012, at 1:49 PM, Palmer, Jennifer wrote: I agree Renee. What I often do is spend a little time talking about our purpose for reading first and letting that guide the discussion ... I think it was Kylie Beers that uses the example of a text that is a description of a beautiful home. An interior decorator, a real estate agent and a thief, all would find different things in the text to be important because their purposes for reading would be quite different. It is possible to store the mind with a million facts and still be entirely uneducated. ~ Alec Bourne ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/ mosaic_literacyworkshop.org Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/ mosaic_literacyworkshop.org Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/ mosaic_literacyworkshop.org Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive Public Education: It's a right, not a race. ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive
Re: [MOSAIC] Determining Importance
Evelia, Sometimes when I am substituting, and there is some "leftover" time, I have kids get out whatever book they are currently reading, and then we do a little book chat. If the teacher is one who has kids' names in a can, I draw names, otherwise, I just go around randomly, asking questions about their book. One thing I ask is, "What is the story MOSTLY about?" or "What is the story MAINLY about?" For some kids this is a hard question and they start telling me a lot of details, or retelling the story. I stop them, acknowledge that it's great that they remember so much of the story, but what I want to know is what it is mostly about, in just one or two sentences. It really does seem to help, especially when there is time to ask several students the question about their book. The student modeling helps other students know what I am after. Renee On Feb 19, 2012, at 2:30 PM, evelia cadet wrote: Maybe, instead of saying "author's main idea", I should've said the standardized test maker main idea. This is the first year I am teaching the comprehension strategies. In the past, my students have struggled with main idea. I am wondering how determining importance may help them with finding main idea. I hope I am making sense. Thank you. Evelia Sent from my Windows Phone -Original Message- From: evelia cadet Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2012 12:03 PM To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Determining Importance Are determining importance and finding the author's main idea the same thing? If they are not, are they related? How? HELP! Evelia Sent from my Windows Phone -Original Message- From: Palmer, Jennifer Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2012 9:23 AM To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Determining Importance It's the testing culture Renee. We test low level and that drives instruction. Think about main idea ... And it's relationship to what we are talking about. Determining importance becomes a game to guess what test authors feel is important... Sent from my iPhone On Feb 19, 2012, at 12:01 PM, "Renee" wrote: I wonder what would happen if we just asked a student, "Why is this important?" I'm thinking in a context, for example, of my own lesson, when the student asked how Washington's face got on Mount Rushmore. These were third graders. I can easily imagine a student ansswering, "it isn't" and I could also easily imagine a student giving a reason, maybe something like, "well, because he was so important that they put him on a mountain so how did that happen?" I think it's a good question: Why is this important? It has that lovely open-endedness that helps us learn what's going on the mind of a student. And by the way in my substituting travels to various classrooms, I am finding every year that it's harder and harder to get kids to answer open-ended questions with any kind of confidence. That frightens me. Renee On Feb 18, 2012, at 1:49 PM, Palmer, Jennifer wrote: I agree Renee. What I often do is spend a little time talking about our purpose for reading first and letting that guide the discussion ... I think it was Kylie Beers that uses the example of a text that is a description of a beautiful home. An interior decorator, a real estate agent and a thief, all would find different things in the text to be important because their purposes for reading would be quite different. It is possible to store the mind with a million facts and still be entirely uneducated. ~ Alec Bourne ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/ mosaic_literacyworkshop.org Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/ mosaic_literacyworkshop.org Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/ mosaic_literacyworkshop.org Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/ mosaic_literacyworkshop.org Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.o
Re: [MOSAIC] Reader Writer Workshop Resources
Will you post the link to the school website you are referring to? I would love to check it out. Terry On Sun, Feb 19, 2012 at 1:15 PM, Sandy Stevens wrote: > Charlene, > > I love your school's website. I got lost in for over an hour. > Unfortunately, I was unable to acces your link to the videos.:( > > I am working on my Reading Specialist license and hopt to be a literacy > coach someday. I have you rwebsite bookmarked as a great resource. > > Sandy > > ___ > Mosaic mailing list > Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org > To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to > http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org > > Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive > > -- *Stress (substitue "worry") is a form of atheism; it infers that you do not believe God is in control.* * * `´*:-.,_,.-:*´`´*:-,_,.-:*´`´*:-.,_,.-:*´`´*: ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive
Re: [MOSAIC] Determining Importance
Maybe, instead of saying "author's main idea", I should've said the standardized test maker main idea. This is the first year I am teaching the comprehension strategies. In the past, my students have struggled with main idea. I am wondering how determining importance may help them with finding main idea. I hope I am making sense. Thank you. Evelia Sent from my Windows Phone -Original Message- From: evelia cadet Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2012 12:03 PM To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Determining Importance Are determining importance and finding the author's main idea the same thing? If they are not, are they related? How? HELP! Evelia Sent from my Windows Phone -Original Message- From: Palmer, Jennifer Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2012 9:23 AM To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Determining Importance It's the testing culture Renee. We test low level and that drives instruction. Think about main idea ... And it's relationship to what we are talking about. Determining importance becomes a game to guess what test authors feel is important... Sent from my iPhone On Feb 19, 2012, at 12:01 PM, "Renee" wrote: > I wonder what would happen if we just asked a student, "Why is this > important?" I'm thinking in a context, for example, of my own lesson, when > the student asked how Washington's face got on Mount Rushmore. These were > third graders. I can easily imagine a student ansswering, "it isn't" and I > could also easily imagine a student giving a reason, maybe something like, > "well, because he was so important that they put him on a mountain so how did > that happen?" > > I think it's a good question: Why is this important? It has that lovely > open-endedness that helps us learn what's going on the mind of a student. > > And by the way in my substituting travels to various classrooms, I am > finding every year that it's harder and harder to get kids to answer > open-ended questions with any kind of confidence. That frightens me. > > Renee > > On Feb 18, 2012, at 1:49 PM, Palmer, Jennifer wrote: > >> I agree Renee. What I often do is spend a little time talking about our >> purpose for reading first and letting that guide the discussion ... I think >> it was Kylie Beers that uses the example of a text that is a description of >> a beautiful home. An interior decorator, a real estate agent and a thief, >> all would find different things in the text to be important because their >> purposes for reading would be quite different. > > It is possible to store the mind with a million facts and still be entirely > uneducated. > ~ Alec Bourne > > > ___ > Mosaic mailing list > Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org > To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to > http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org > > Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive > ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive
Re: [MOSAIC] Reader Writer Workshop Resources
Hi Sandy, Glad you like the website. We created it to help teachers access lessons and ideas. We try to add more as we get the chance. The video links are on the first page when you open up that www.wrsd.net/literacy site. The second episode's link is the picture of the video itself. Thelink to the first episode which might be the one more helpful to this discussion is listed in words beneath that picture. Best wishes with your professional plans and in all that you do. Check back to the website from time to time because we do try to update it. Charlene - Original Message - From: "Sandy Stevens" To: mosaic@literacyworkshop.org Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2012 2:15:39 PM Subject: [MOSAIC] Reader Writer Workshop Resources Charlene, I love your school's website. I got lost in for over an hour. Unfortunately, I was unable to acces your link to the videos. :( I am working on my Reading Specialist license and hopt to be a literacy coach someday. I have you rwebsite bookmarked as a great resource. Sandy ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive
Re: [MOSAIC] Determining Importance
A book I thought was helpful is A Teachers' Guide to Standardized Reading Tests by Lucy Calkins, Beverly Falk and other NY teachers... They were a teacher study group who came from perspectives shared on this list and still felt a need to deal with tests, but not the usual test prep. They wound up involving kids in inquiry into the tests - like tests as a genre. Might be worthwhile exploring. I liked many parts of the book. I know Bev from her long time work in New York on authentic assessment. She did research on the Learning Record for example. She also has another book on demystifying assessment that is excellent. Sally On 2/19/12 11:28 AM, "evelia cadet" wrote: > Here is where I am struggling. How can I teach my students to determine > what's important in a text, but at the same time they have to be able to > answer those fake main idea questions from a test? Any advice? > > Sent from my Windows Phone > > -Original Message- > From: Palmer, Jennifer > Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2012 9:23 AM > To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group > Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Determining Importance > > It's the testing culture Renee. We test low level and that drives instruction. > Think about main idea ... And it's relationship to what we are talking about. > Determining importance becomes a game to guess what test authors feel is > important... > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Feb 19, 2012, at 12:01 PM, "Renee" wrote: > >> I wonder what would happen if we just asked a student, "Why is this >> important?" I'm thinking in a context, for example, of my own lesson, when >> the student asked how Washington's face got on Mount Rushmore. These were >> third graders. I can easily imagine a student ansswering, "it isn't" and I >> could also easily imagine a student giving a reason, maybe something like, >> "well, because he was so important that they put him on a mountain so how did >> that happen?" >> >> I think it's a good question: Why is this important? It has that lovely >> open-endedness that helps us learn what's going on the mind of a student. >> >> And by the way in my substituting travels to various classrooms, I am >> finding every year that it's harder and harder to get kids to answer >> open-ended questions with any kind of confidence. That frightens me. >> >> Renee >> >> On Feb 18, 2012, at 1:49 PM, Palmer, Jennifer wrote: >> >>> I agree Renee. What I often do is spend a little time talking about our >>> purpose for reading first and letting that guide the discussion ... I think >>> it was Kylie Beers that uses the example of a text that is a description of >>> a beautiful home. An interior decorator, a real estate agent and a thief, >>> all would find different things in the text to be important because their >>> purposes for reading would be quite different. >> >> It is possible to store the mind with a million facts and still be entirely >> uneducated. >> ~ Alec Bourne >> >> >> ___ >> Mosaic mailing list >> Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org >> To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to >> http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org >> >> Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive >> > > ___ > Mosaic mailing list > Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org > To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to > http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org > > Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive > > > ___ > Mosaic mailing list > Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org > To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to > http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org > > Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive > ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive
[MOSAIC] Reader Writer Workshop Resources
Charlene, I love your school's website. I got lost in for over an hour. Unfortunately, I was unable to acces your link to the videos.:( I am working on my Reading Specialist license and hopt to be a literacy coach someday. I have you rwebsite bookmarked as a great resource. Sandy ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive
Re: [MOSAIC] Determining Importance
Are determining importance and finding the author's main idea the same thing? If they are not, are they related? How? HELP! Evelia Sent from my Windows Phone -Original Message- From: Palmer, Jennifer Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2012 9:23 AM To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Determining Importance It's the testing culture Renee. We test low level and that drives instruction. Think about main idea ... And it's relationship to what we are talking about. Determining importance becomes a game to guess what test authors feel is important... Sent from my iPhone On Feb 19, 2012, at 12:01 PM, "Renee" wrote: > I wonder what would happen if we just asked a student, "Why is this > important?" I'm thinking in a context, for example, of my own lesson, when > the student asked how Washington's face got on Mount Rushmore. These were > third graders. I can easily imagine a student ansswering, "it isn't" and I > could also easily imagine a student giving a reason, maybe something like, > "well, because he was so important that they put him on a mountain so how did > that happen?" > > I think it's a good question: Why is this important? It has that lovely > open-endedness that helps us learn what's going on the mind of a student. > > And by the way in my substituting travels to various classrooms, I am > finding every year that it's harder and harder to get kids to answer > open-ended questions with any kind of confidence. That frightens me. > > Renee > > On Feb 18, 2012, at 1:49 PM, Palmer, Jennifer wrote: > >> I agree Renee. What I often do is spend a little time talking about our >> purpose for reading first and letting that guide the discussion ... I think >> it was Kylie Beers that uses the example of a text that is a description of >> a beautiful home. An interior decorator, a real estate agent and a thief, >> all would find different things in the text to be important because their >> purposes for reading would be quite different. > > It is possible to store the mind with a million facts and still be entirely > uneducated. > ~ Alec Bourne > > > ___ > Mosaic mailing list > Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org > To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to > http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org > > Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive > ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive
Re: [MOSAIC] Determining Importance
Was it not Chris Tovani who used this example (different purposes - decorator / real estate agent, and a thief) in her book, "I Read It But I Don't Get It"? Excellent conversation. "Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group" writes: >I agree Renee. What I often do is spend a little time talking about our >purpose for reading first and letting that guide the discussion ... I >think it was Kylie Beers that uses the example of a text that is a >description of a beautiful home. An interior decorator, a real estate >agent and a thief, all would find different things in the text to be >important because their purposes for reading would be quite different. > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Feb 18, 2012, at 1:00 PM, "Renee" wrote: > >> Evelia, >> >> I think one thing that happens with **some** nonfiction, when there are >lots of photos, is that kids skip the captions in the photos. If you >include social studies and science texts in this category, which they >are, those books often have lots of pictures. There are times when I >spend lots of times just on the captions, or the highlighted words, or >things like that. >> >> Sometime having students ask questions about a subject can lead into a >discussion about what is important or what's not. For example, when I was >subbing yesterday, doing a lesson about George Washington, when asking >third grade students what questions they might have about George >Washington, one student asked, "How did his face get on Mount Rushmore?" >Now I think that's a very interesting question, but I deflected it for >this lesson by acknowledging how interesting of a question it is, then >"thinking out loud" that it wasn't really about George Washington >himself, but about the person who did the sculpting, and then asking the >student if the answer to this question would give us more information >about George Washington's life (he said no). Now, in some cases I might >include this question on the list (like if it were my own class, for >example, and I was going to have the children doing a research project) >but in this case I needed really focused questions. >> >> Determining importance is tricky because what's important to one person >might not be important to another person, and what's important in one >context is not so important in another context. >> >> Just some thoughts... >> Renee >> >> On Feb 17, 2012, at 8:58 PM, evelia cadet wrote: >> >>> Is anyone aware of a great lesson/lessons to teach determining >importance in nonfiction? Thanks. >>> >>> Evelia >>> >>> Sent from my Windows Phone >>> ___ >>> Mosaic mailing list >>> Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org >>> To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to >>> http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org >>> >>> Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive >>> >>> >> "There is no test that measures a child." >> >> >> >> ___ >> Mosaic mailing list >> Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org >> To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to >> http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org >> >> Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive >> > >___ >Mosaic mailing list >Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org >To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to >http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org > >Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive > Kim Thompson, OCT, M. Ed., Hons. B. Sc. Student Work Strategy Teacher / Coach Program Department Orangeville kim.thomp...@ugdsb.on.ca 519-941-6191 voicemail #378 "Learning is the work" (Michael Fullan) Schools: Hyland Heights Parkinson Centennial Primrose Princess Elizabeth Princess Margaret Rockwood ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive
Re: [MOSAIC] phonics program
I agree with you Jennifer. Thanks for saying it so clearly. Would it be okay if I share it with my new teacher students? Also I think what makes me react so strongly to scripted programs is NOT that they don't use useful concepts (like the multisensory and the keyword associations you mention) but that in the hands of teachers (and administrators) who are not knowledgeable they get used in ways that I think are not positive in the long run. As you say, we need to know the developmental levels of unique children and help them learn "at their point of need." (I like this concept that I got from a long ago wonderful book on writing) And because, as teachers teach Wilson with some of the children not ready to get the point, often without realizing they spend more and more time teaching something some children already have and other children weren't ready for in the first place. Thus the balance tips way in the direction of phonics and meaning/comprehension gets neglected or put off until the children can decode. I would never argue that we don't need to teach decoding. We just need to teach it WITH comprehension, in fact as a necessary tool for reading with understanding. It is these dynamics - things gone way askew I see in schools. I am seeing pure test prep factories out there. I am seeing childen left further and further behind and becoming behavior problems because they are being asked to do whole class drill really on learnings they are not in any way ready for. I am not clear on whether or not the teachers on this list have seen the full blown horrors out there in many schools. And if they haven't, they may not understand my level of concern. Some days I just cry after I leave the school. Over and over I see practices that might seem innocuous to begin or even actually effective, but applied rigidly and applied to all children regardless of their developmental levels become destructive. Example daily oral language, or the new Treasures series calling for rigid 5 minute quickwrites orthe list goes on and on. So for our list I am only asking how we can create a place where quick requests re (FOR EXAMPLE) scripted phonics program don't automatically just slide by because we are an open source for information exchange. I absolutely know that there are many thoughtful wise teachers on this list who are asking because their districts are mandating something. And they will do their best to use the programs wisely and carefully and help others to do so. But there may also be those on the list who don't know the dangers yet. Was thinking perhaps we could ask people who post requests to give us some context? Why is the program being mandated. Are they already aware of what to look out for or to be concerned about? Are they asking for "critical" in the sense of challenging feedback (not in the sense of criticizing)? I had my students in my literacy class last week, choose one practice they saw being implemented in the classrooms where they are student teaching. They were to describe the practice and its supposed purpose. They were to describe its positive consequences and its potentially negative consequences. And then to share how they thought the practice might be impacting their "case study" student. Their "case studies" are usually students who might be struggling or somewhat behind by the usual school expectations (not mine or ours necessarily!) for a variety of reasons. It was very powerful. I know we wouldn't be able to mandate giving context on the list, but perhaps just being aware of a "rubric" so to speak to think about when considering any practice might help all of us to think and to respond more thoughtfully. I will try my best not to react so strongly that it feels like criticism. I am just overwhelmed at times at the destructive things that are happening around me in schools. And they often begin with districts/schools adopting programs or practices with no real background and no incentive to think critically before hopping on board. Thanks to anyone who has read this far. I know I get long winded. I at least feel better for having spilled this out. And thanks Jennifer and Bev for hopping back into the dialogue. Know you are both doing important work outside the list too but do so appreciate your leadership. Sally On 2/19/12 8:51 AM, "Palmer, Jennifer" wrote: > Pat...I can tell you briefly what I think works about Wilson Fundations... it > is the keyword/letter/sound association. Learning a consistent picture and > keyword really helps struggling kids internalize that letter sound > relationship. I also liked the skywriting---the use of large muscle movements > helps the tactile kinesthetic kids. > > I think what is missing, even from Cunningham (who I love and borrow from all > the time), is the idea that word learning has a developmental component. When > we teach a phonics skill whole class there is only a small group ready for it. > Often 1/3 of
Re: [MOSAIC] Determining Importance
Here is where I am struggling. How can I teach my students to determine what's important in a text, but at the same time they have to be able to answer those fake main idea questions from a test? Any advice? Sent from my Windows Phone -Original Message- From: Palmer, Jennifer Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2012 9:23 AM To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Determining Importance It's the testing culture Renee. We test low level and that drives instruction. Think about main idea ... And it's relationship to what we are talking about. Determining importance becomes a game to guess what test authors feel is important... Sent from my iPhone On Feb 19, 2012, at 12:01 PM, "Renee" wrote: > I wonder what would happen if we just asked a student, "Why is this > important?" I'm thinking in a context, for example, of my own lesson, when > the student asked how Washington's face got on Mount Rushmore. These were > third graders. I can easily imagine a student ansswering, "it isn't" and I > could also easily imagine a student giving a reason, maybe something like, > "well, because he was so important that they put him on a mountain so how did > that happen?" > > I think it's a good question: Why is this important? It has that lovely > open-endedness that helps us learn what's going on the mind of a student. > > And by the way in my substituting travels to various classrooms, I am > finding every year that it's harder and harder to get kids to answer > open-ended questions with any kind of confidence. That frightens me. > > Renee > > On Feb 18, 2012, at 1:49 PM, Palmer, Jennifer wrote: > >> I agree Renee. What I often do is spend a little time talking about our >> purpose for reading first and letting that guide the discussion ... I think >> it was Kylie Beers that uses the example of a text that is a description of >> a beautiful home. An interior decorator, a real estate agent and a thief, >> all would find different things in the text to be important because their >> purposes for reading would be quite different. > > It is possible to store the mind with a million facts and still be entirely > uneducated. > ~ Alec Bourne > > > ___ > Mosaic mailing list > Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org > To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to > http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org > > Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive > ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive
Re: [MOSAIC] phonics program
Pat...I can tell you briefly what I think works about Wilson Fundations... it is the keyword/letter/sound association. Learning a consistent picture and keyword really helps struggling kids internalize that letter sound relationship. I also liked the skywriting---the use of large muscle movements helps the tactile kinesthetic kids. I think what is missing, even from Cunningham (who I love and borrow from all the time), is the idea that word learning has a developmental component. When we teach a phonics skill whole class there is only a small group ready for it. Often 1/3 of the class already knows it... and another 1/3 is not ready. Small group instruction based on developmental assessments of word knowledge (like Words their Way) really made the ultimate difference for me. There is no point drilling vowel digraphs when the child cannot even associate consonant sounds with a letter. This is why I myself used Renees approach... poetry. Carefully choosing poems, I could work with students in small needs groups on phonics skills while the other students read. AND yes lots of opportunities to apply phonics through reading at an independent and instructional level... along with many opportunities to write... And of course, we need balance. In the early grades I think 1/3 of the time on decoding and 2/3 on comprehension is about right. Jennifer L. Palmer Instructional Facilitator National Board Certified Teacher Magnolia Elementary (home school) 901 Trimble Road Joppa, MD 21085 410-612-1553 Fax 410-612-1576 "In every child a touch of greatness!!' Proud of our Title One School Norrisville Elementary 5302 Norrisville Road White Hall, MD 21161 410-692-7810 Fax 410-692-7812 Where Bright Futures Begin!! From: mosaic-bounces+jennifer.palmer=hcps@literacyworkshop.org [mosaic-bounces+jennifer.palmer=hcps@literacyworkshop.org] on behalf of Patricia Kimathi [pkima...@earthlink.net] Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2012 9:33 AM To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] phonics program I thank you so much for your post. I love this listserv and value the ideas I have been able to gather from other members. I also value how it allows be to think through my own ideas and hopefully share ideas with others. I find that this is happening less in schools. I know that this year the teachers I work with are veterans who have a wealth of knowledge, but is has been awhile. On this listserv I have always been able to think through my own beliefs. I do use many methods with children based on their needs. I usually chose and pick what I need from programs. This year we are using a program that has taken from many different programs so I can use what I have always used and say it is based on their program. I tweak what they have to match what I need to teach. I can really see growth. But the core of everything is Mosaic and the reading comprehension strategies I have learned from this work. Please continue to share ideas and be kind to each other as you do it. Even those of us who would like to be purest can gain information from each other. I am now interested in how you were able to use parts of Wilson with Mosaic. I will not ask you to share on the list so not to bore others, but I am interested. PatK On Feb 17, 2012, at 3:52 PM, Palmer, Jennifer wrote: > I learned a lesson about listening and learning from colleagues > with different opinions. And, when my attitude shifted, my > supervisor was more willing to listen to me and give me the > flexibility I needed to do what I felt was right for kids. Education > is about relationships... I would argue that online relationships > are worth protecting as well. Let's think about how we might protect > those relationships here before we send off an emotionally charged > post. > > As for a common belief system,I think we'd better be careful with > our assumptions. It's time for a reality check. We have thousands of > members and I can pretty much assure you that there are many > different beliefs represented here. PatK ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive
Re: [MOSAIC] phonics program
Thank you. This makes a lot of sense. I have never used Wilson, the skywriting is something we can all do and most programs have a picture keyword component. Thanks. Pat On Feb 19, 2012, at 8:51 AM, Palmer, Jennifer wrote: Pat...I can tell you briefly what I think works about Wilson Fundations... it is the keyword/letter/sound association. Learning a consistent picture and keyword really helps struggling kids internalize that letter sound relationship. I also liked the skywriting---the use of large muscle movements helps the tactile kinesthetic kids. I think what is missing, even from Cunningham (who I love and borrow from all the time), is the idea that word learning has a developmental component. When we teach a phonics skill whole class there is only a small group ready for it. Often 1/3 of the class already knows it... and another 1/3 is not ready. Small group instruction based on developmental assessments of word knowledge (like Words their Way) really made the ultimate difference for me. There is no point drilling vowel digraphs when the child cannot even associate consonant sounds with a letter. This is why I myself used Renees approach... poetry. Carefully choosing poems, I could work with students in small needs groups on phonics skills while the other students read. AND yes lots of opportunities to apply phonics through reading at an independent and instructional level... along with many opportunities to write... And of course, we need balance. In the early grades I think 1/3 of the time on decoding and 2/3 on comprehension is about right. Jennifer L. Palmer Instructional Facilitator National Board Certified Teacher Magnolia Elementary (home school) 901 Trimble Road Joppa, MD 21085 410-612-1553 Fax 410-612-1576 "In every child a touch of greatness!!' Proud of our Title One School Norrisville Elementary 5302 Norrisville Road White Hall, MD 21161 410-692-7810 Fax 410-692-7812 Where Bright Futures Begin!! From: mosaic-bounces+jennifer.palmer=hcps@literacyworkshop.org [mosaic-bounces+jennifer.palmer=hcps@literacyworkshop.org ] on behalf of Patricia Kimathi [pkima...@earthlink.net] Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2012 9:33 AM To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] phonics program I thank you so much for your post. I love this listserv and value the ideas I have been able to gather from other members. I also value how it allows be to think through my own ideas and hopefully share ideas with others. I find that this is happening less in schools. I know that this year the teachers I work with are veterans who have a wealth of knowledge, but is has been awhile. On this listserv I have always been able to think through my own beliefs. I do use many methods with children based on their needs. I usually chose and pick what I need from programs. This year we are using a program that has taken from many different programs so I can use what I have always used and say it is based on their program. I tweak what they have to match what I need to teach. I can really see growth. But the core of everything is Mosaic and the reading comprehension strategies I have learned from this work. Please continue to share ideas and be kind to each other as you do it. Even those of us who would like to be purest can gain information from each other. I am now interested in how you were able to use parts of Wilson with Mosaic. I will not ask you to share on the list so not to bore others, but I am interested. PatK On Feb 17, 2012, at 3:52 PM, Palmer, Jennifer wrote: I learned a lesson about listening and learning from colleagues with different opinions. And, when my attitude shifted, my supervisor was more willing to listen to me and give me the flexibility I needed to do what I felt was right for kids. Education is about relationships... I would argue that online relationships are worth protecting as well. Let's think about how we might protect those relationships here before we send off an emotionally charged post. As for a common belief system,I think we'd better be careful with our assumptions. It's time for a reality check. We have thousands of members and I can pretty much assure you that there are many different beliefs represented here. PatK ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/ mosaic_literacyworkshop.org Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/ mosaic_literacyworkshop.org Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive PatK
Re: [MOSAIC] Determining Importance
It's the testing culture Renee. We test low level and that drives instruction. Think about main idea ... And it's relationship to what we are talking about. Determining importance becomes a game to guess what test authors feel is important... Sent from my iPhone On Feb 19, 2012, at 12:01 PM, "Renee" wrote: > I wonder what would happen if we just asked a student, "Why is this > important?" I'm thinking in a context, for example, of my own lesson, when > the student asked how Washington's face got on Mount Rushmore. These were > third graders. I can easily imagine a student ansswering, "it isn't" and I > could also easily imagine a student giving a reason, maybe something like, > "well, because he was so important that they put him on a mountain so how did > that happen?" > > I think it's a good question: Why is this important? It has that lovely > open-endedness that helps us learn what's going on the mind of a student. > > And by the way in my substituting travels to various classrooms, I am > finding every year that it's harder and harder to get kids to answer > open-ended questions with any kind of confidence. That frightens me. > > Renee > > On Feb 18, 2012, at 1:49 PM, Palmer, Jennifer wrote: > >> I agree Renee. What I often do is spend a little time talking about our >> purpose for reading first and letting that guide the discussion ... I think >> it was Kylie Beers that uses the example of a text that is a description of >> a beautiful home. An interior decorator, a real estate agent and a thief, >> all would find different things in the text to be important because their >> purposes for reading would be quite different. > > It is possible to store the mind with a million facts and still be entirely > uneducated. > ~ Alec Bourne > > > ___ > Mosaic mailing list > Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org > To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to > http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org > > Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive > ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive
Re: [MOSAIC] Determining Importance
I wonder what would happen if we just asked a student, "Why is this important?" I'm thinking in a context, for example, of my own lesson, when the student asked how Washington's face got on Mount Rushmore. These were third graders. I can easily imagine a student ansswering, "it isn't" and I could also easily imagine a student giving a reason, maybe something like, "well, because he was so important that they put him on a mountain so how did that happen?" I think it's a good question: Why is this important? It has that lovely open-endedness that helps us learn what's going on the mind of a student. And by the way in my substituting travels to various classrooms, I am finding every year that it's harder and harder to get kids to answer open-ended questions with any kind of confidence. That frightens me. Renee On Feb 18, 2012, at 1:49 PM, Palmer, Jennifer wrote: I agree Renee. What I often do is spend a little time talking about our purpose for reading first and letting that guide the discussion ... I think it was Kylie Beers that uses the example of a text that is a description of a beautiful home. An interior decorator, a real estate agent and a thief, all would find different things in the text to be important because their purposes for reading would be quite different. It is possible to store the mind with a million facts and still be entirely uneducated. ~ Alec Bourne ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive
Re: [MOSAIC] Determining Importance
Indeed they would. And that's why it's so important to ask follow-up questions to clarify. And THAT is one of the biggest things lacking in scripted programs, I think. Unless a teacher is ready, willing, and able to deviate from the script, all questions are directed toward getting the students to give the ""right answer"" that the script demands. Renee On Feb 18, 2012, at 1:49 PM, Palmer, Jennifer wrote: I agree Renee. What I often do is spend a little time talking about our purpose for reading first and letting that guide the discussion ... I think it was Kylie Beers that uses the example of a text that is a description of a beautiful home. An interior decorator, a real estate agent and a thief, all would find different things in the text to be important because their purposes for reading would be quite different. "The Buddha, the Godhead, resides quite as comfortably in the circuits of a digital computer or the gears of a cycle transmission as he does at the top of the mountain, or in the petals of a flower." ~ Robert Pirsig ~ Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance ___ Mosaic mailing list Mosaic@literacyworkshop.org To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive
