Re: [Mpls] A false economic base for Mpls
David: I've noticed that the Progressive Calendar has not only notices of specific events but also articles of more general interest. Do the articles have to be from national publications? If not, my reply to Mark Snyder on stadium financing and an article I wrote on medicinal marijuana might be appropriate? Please notify me if these submissions are not suitable for the Calendar so I can avoid wasting both your and my time by submitting them. Robert Halfhill In reply to Mark Snyder, the Twins, as well as the Vikings, are private businesses. What is the justification for Minneapolis continually showing money at private businesses? I once said that if Minneapolis is going to be giving money to private individuals, the could giveit to me and I would be happy to build a stadium, hire a management team to make it profitable and live off the profits. The person I was talking to said, Do you deserve it? But he totally missed my point. Why should the City be handing out money to support the private businesses of an individuals? People aautomatically assume that Karl Pohlad deserves it because he has made a lot of money. If he has made a lot of money, why is the City taking public tax monies to give him more money? My point was that not just I but everybody in Minneapolis deserves the money as least as much as Karl Pohlad if the City is going to besprinkling largesse onto private individuals. In fact, nearly everybody in Minneapolis deserves it MORE than Karl Pohlad because he already has more money than most of us and we NEED it more. And taking this logic further, homeless people in Minneapolis NEED and therefore DESERVE it more than most of us. The City's taking public tax monies levied from all of us to build stadiums for billionaire team owners and their millionaire employees is Robin Hood in reverse, taking from the poor to give to the rich. It is also welfare for the rich and socialism for the rich. The same criticism applies to the City using public tax money to subsidize luxury housing developments for the rich, exclusive shopping centers and high rent office buildings. There is a legitimate place for tax increment financing if the City REALLY used the profits from the high end developments to finance affordable housing. And by affordable I mean AFFORDABLE. There are people who have only the minimum social security grant plus supplementation from Minnesota Supplemental Aid and food stamps, around $700.00 to $800.00 a month to live on and these people need housing too. If the City used the extra tax money brought in by a tax increment district to compleatly subsidize the construction cost, te City could build housing that these people could afford. An extra revenue from tax increment can even be used to build housing for people who are now homeless by subsidizing not only the construction cost but the operating expenses of the building that can house these people. And by the way, mix the housing for different income levels together so we don't have ghettos for the formerly homeless and welfare recipients. Robert Halfhill Loring Park http://halfhillviews.greatnow.com http://www.thepen.us/e-fraud.html REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] State Law requires a referendum for a local sales tax increase
Earlier today, the question came up about the requirement of a referendum when a local sales tax is to be increased. I tried to post this earlier, but it was too big. State law is quite clear; Minnesota Statute Annotated 297A.99. - Local Sales Taxes, requires a referendum be held when any local sales tax increase is proposed. Subdivision 3(a) of this law specifically states: Imposition of a local sales tax is subject to approval by voters of the political subdivision at a general election. See: www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/stats/297A/99.html Thus before any new sales tax can be imposed in Hennepin County to finance a new Twins Stadium, or any project, there must be a referendum in Hennepin County. However the way the stadium proponents have tried in the past to get around this requirement is by throwing in one line, usually buried deep in the stadium bill, that appears totally innocuous on it's face that says, MSA 297A.99 shall not apply to this legislation. The word referendum is never mentioned and the need for a public vote on the tax increase vanishes like fog on a sunny morning. Why do the Twins and the Hennepin County Board members, who are pushing the latest Twins plan, oppose a referendum? That's easy. Polls by the Strib show that the vast majority of state residents and a higher percentage of Hennepin County voters would vote against the current stadium plan if it were to be put to a vote today. Two times the issue has been put to a vote of Minnesota citizens. In 1997 the voters of Minneapolis placed a $10 million cap on City expenditures for sports facilities and in 1999 St. Paul voters rejected a 1/2 sales tax increase for a new Twins Stadium. Any stadium legislation, which increases local sales taxes for a sports facility, whether it is the Twins in Hennepin County, or the Vikings in Anoka County, should be put to a vote of the citizens as current state law now requires. Minneapolis and Hennepin County legislators need to hear that MSA 297A.99 requiring a referendum be left in place. Dann Dobson Executive Director - No Stadium Tax Coalition 651-227-4376 www.NoStadiumTax.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Doug Grow
Why do some of us have to keep pointing out and pointing out and pointing out... the obvious. Why are we using public tax monies to support private businesses, which the Twins and the Vikings most certainly are? Why do we have to keep shoveling money down the maws of the wealthy when there are people without adequate food, adequate medical care, adequate housing or even any housing at all. Why do people keep assuming Karl Pohlad deserves this public largesse more than any one of us because he has made a lot of money when the question should be -- If he has made so much money, why does the government need to shovel even more on to him? Why does the government always find a reason to sprinkle more public largesse on the affluent while cutting off those on public assistance and Minnesota Care? Isn't this Robin Hood in reverse as well as welfare and socialism for the rich? Robert Halfhill Loring Park http://halfhillviews.greatnow.com http://www.thepen.us/e-fraud.html REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] 8th Ward gathers, no endorsement
My congratulations to all of the 8th Ward DFL candidates who sought the party's endorsement on Saturday. Impressive performances by all. Each of the five folks in the well-prepared field had done their homework, groundwork, and were clearly committed to doing the best for the people. Also, congrats to DFL SD 61 for a well-run convention. Wizard Marks writes: In the 8th ward, the two major manipulators were Lilligren and Schiff. Lilligren and Schiff both backed Hayden and supported his campaign. RL: I attended as a neutral observer. I worked for no candidate, other than a few encouraging words to each. It will be interesting to see how the post-convention field shapes up. One thing these five DFL candidates showed us is that we can expect to have an informed, respectful, issue-based discourse. Robert Lilligren Council Member Ward 8 Candidate Ward 6 DFL Endorsed Phillips West (newly recognized as an independent neighborhood) REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Re: stadium
Ron Leurquin wrote: Last week I asked the forum what we gain from building a new stadium that we do not now have? Is that gain equal or greater than our investment? What does Carl stand to gain? Is that gain equal or greater than his investment? Anyone want to try and take that on? Dean Here: O.k. my last post on the ballpark then I'm moving on to more friendlier sites like bat-girl.com. But this is how I would answer the first part of Ron's questions. What do we gain? How about a modern ball park that has seats that face home plate, a place where you can go watch Major League Baseball on a gorgeous July evening and not feel bad because you are indoors. A place that isn't sterile and plastic -- where you can invite your out- of-town friends to come watch a game, instead of always going to their City. A ballpark that allows the Twins to be more economically stable so that payroll increases don't have to fall entirely on the back of increased ticket prices or force them to relocate to Las Vegas or Portland. A ballpark that is integrated into the City's downtown fabric and is complementary to and supports local restaurants, bars, shops, housing instead of being isolated by roads, parking lots, and industrial buildings. Is that gain equal or greater than our investment? I can't quantify it, but I know that it will exceed my 0.0015 increase in taxes investment many, many times over. Dean E. Carlson Ward 10, East Harriet REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Carl Pohlad's Contribution
Hello Minneapolis Folks, This is a smart investment for Carl Pohlad he will make his money back on naming rights as Jim has reminded everyone, and the value of his team will increase more than his $125 million contribution as soon as the project is started. I am a baseball fan as well. I would love to watch baseball outdoors when it is sunny and 75 degrees. I believe the location that has been chosen for this project is perfect. But that does not mean that such an investment is a good use of public dollars. I had a friend of mine argue it is an investment for the county and city. We made same investment in the Metro Dome and it has been a depreciating investment since the day it has been built. I will guarantee after new stadiums are built for the Twins and the Vikings the city of Minneapolis will use tax increment finance dollars to tear down and redevelop that area of down town. We will be on the hook for more then just a new stadium. Recently while listening sports radio cleaver banter about the Timberwolves and one of the on air talents stated, The Target Center is just too old. The public will always be on the hook for the next stadium or arena as soon as one is completed. But the truth be told private industry already receives a significant amount of tax dollars every year, and stadiums just get more scrutiny. Building new stadiums or arenas is great for owners, construction companies, and some restaurants and bars, but it is not a very good investment for the public. Building a house is a much better investment! How many homes could we build for the low income working people to own for that same price? Now that would be a good investment and each family would have their own naming rights! Ken Bradley Jim McGuire [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm somewhat of an agnostic on the stadium deal, but the more I read about it the more I'm annoyed with how it's being spun in the media. My biggest annoyance? Carl Pohlad's contribution of $125m. If Pohlad was truly contributing that money out of his pocket, I'd be more inclined to support the concept. I love baseball, and it is a really small tax. (Don't get me wrong, I still struggle with this because I think there are other prioriies - such as proposals for a metro-wide .25 pct tax for transit). What bugs me the most is reading that Pohlad owns the naming rights. I just read that the average received by pro teams for naming rights is $54.6m (the Wild are getting considerably more for the Xcel Center so I'd consider the $54.6 to be a low estimate as to what Pohlad gets). I'd say, roughly, half of his contribution is coming from naming rights. If the media would tell us that clearly that'd be one thing. Maybe that's been covered well in more in-depth stories and I've missed it, but I consider the repeated statement of Pohlad's contribution to be a snow-job. Jim McGuire Como Check out the Usual Suspects Blog - http://www.browncross.com/usualsuspects REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Strib and Mayday Parade
Wow, what an amazing day to be working and playing outside. It was a great Mayday gathering with exploding Hummvees and the return of the Tree of Life. The parade and ceremony are the ultimate ode to cardboard and wheat paste, with such great ingenuity, imagery, and passion and humor. This was a year when the sun both literally and figuratively almost could not make it to the ceremony. I have been part of the In the Heart of the Beast Mayday celebration for almost three decades and I just dig the funky beauty, especially the giant puppets that get created each year. Thanks to Heart of the Beast and all the participants for another amazing Mayday. So here we have this incredible visual feast and this most amazing photo opportunity for our local daily, the Strib. I mean, here we have the molten core of the universe and hot lava traveling down Bloomington Ave., a 14ft. tall golden Trojan Horse lording over Lake Street and giant skeletons having traffic held up for them by Mpls. finest. This is low hanging fruit on a very large tree for a press photographer to capture an unusual and interesting visual image to sell papers. You would think that after all these years that the Strib would figure out that every year there is a place where they can take an award wining photo of one of the world's most interesting art projects. But like many cool things happening in Minneapolis, these things are not the focus of the Star Tribune. Thanks. Scott Vreeland Seward ( who is both a puppet and a politician) The Strib did a workshop photo of a puppet, last week, but missed the big dance REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Carl Pohlad's Contribution
This is a smart investment for Carl Pohlad he will make his money back on naming rights as Jim has reminded everyone, and the value of his team will increase more than his $125 million contribution as soon as the project is started. That value is only realized if the team is sold. if the team is sold within 10 years or so, the county gets a piece of the profits. That would tell me that this simply isn't a ploy by Pohlad to get a stadium built so he can sell the team for maximum value. If it were, he never would have agreed to cut the county in on the profit of a sale. This is unlike the vikings owner. I had a friend of mine argue it is an investment for the county and city. We made same investment in the Metro Dome and it has been a depreciating investment since the day it has been built. I will guarantee after new stadiums are built for the Twins and the Vikings the city of Minneapolis will use tax increment finance dollars to tear down and redevelop that area of down town. We will be on the hook for more then just a new stadium. What kind of guarantee are you giving us? While TIF is a possibility, TIF has come under great scrutiny over the last few years and i don't feel it can be easily applied as it once was. Recently while listening sports radio cleaver banter about the Timberwolves and one of the on air talents stated, The Target Center is just too old. The public will always be on the hook for the next stadium or arena as soon as one is completed. the target center was built before the advent or the wide use of club level seating and the open concourses which increase the fan experience. This is why the Excel center is ahead of them in the arena game. There is a limit as to what you can build into a stadium or arena to increase revenue, which is the ultimate goal. The metrodome and target center lack those standards that the arenas and stadiums built in the last 15 years have. As David pointed out before, you don't hear this talk related to camden yards or jacobs field, which are 15 years old or so. John Harris webber-camden REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Rybak waffling on Stadium? Not here.
Sid Hartman, Star Tribune, 5/2 http://www.startribune.com/stories/503/5379768.html Minneapolis Mayor R.T. Rybak was on the phone early Sunday morning, calling our WCCO Radio sports show and requesting to go on the air so he could clear up his stance on the proposed partnership of the Twins and Hennepin County to build a new baseball stadium in back of Target Center. I support the plan. I think it's what we set out to do 18 months ago, Rybak said. I think the county board should pass it. If I was sitting on the county board, I would vote for it. And I think it should be sent over to the Capitol. ... The county, the governor, [Senate Majority Leader] Dean Johnson and [House Speaker] Steve Sviggum are all saying the same thing that I'm saying, which is the following: 'This is a good plan. Take it up after the highest priorities are done.' And I think that's important. A bit of controversy occurred when Rybak refused to comment about the stadium plan when it was first announced. I gave a sloppy quote that I think was too vague, and I shouldn't have done that, Rybak said. But I'm trying to be real clear. I support the county plan, I would for vote it. It's in the best site. And I think they should send it over to the Capitol and take it up. Rybak made it clear that there were more important things than the stadium that have to be taken up first by the city and the Legislature. He talked about Denver, Seattle and other cities that have made great progress in building stadiums and getting other things done with a small sales tax, and he supports this one. [Hennepin County Commissioner] Mike Opat and I began working on this two years ago; he deserves tremendous credit for this. As does [Hennepin County Board Chairman] Randy Johnson. As does the whole county board, Rybak said. But I believe most of them would support regional sales taxes for something broader. We've got to get into a different discussion in this community where we're not just saying 'No new taxes,' we're saying, 'How do we pay for great things?' The ballpark is one of them, but it's a lower priority than schools and roads and police. Rybak has a point. Make the sales tax broader. Instead of three cents on every $20, make it six cents. Then more needs such as transportation, housing, etc., could be covered and such a bill would be easier to pass because it would help more people. This could happen if and when Hennepin County approves the sales tax for the stadium plan and sends it to the Legislature for approval. +++ Aaron Klemz, Minneapolis, Minnesota [EMAIL PROTECTED] +++ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] sports sections and newspaper bias
Folks, I know I won't be dampening any media bias conspiracy theories (folks on just about every side of any issue consistently claim the media is against them), but I did want to correct some mis-statements on this list about newspaper readership. Sports and comics are not the most-read sections of the newspaper. The most recent survey by the Newspaper Association of America found general news as holding the largest readership by a pretty large margin, with sports in a statistical dead heat with business and the editorial pages. More people read the classified than read the comics. http://www.naa.org/marketscope/readership2004/section_readership_2004.pdf Also, the sports section doesn't pull in as much advertising as you'd think. Higher rates are generated by the main, business, calendar and food sections. http://www.naa.org/Presstime/PTArtPage.cfm?aid=6840 Jonathan Gaw Longfellow Full disclosure: I write a column for the Star Tribune's OpEx section on Sundays. I am not a Star Tribune employee currently, although I worked for the newspaper in years past. REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] This Week in The Minneapolis Observer
DISCOUNT LUMBER YARD OPENING ON NORTH SIDE St. Paul-based Lampert Yards is set to launch a new retail concept on the economically strapped North side. CITY'S PUBLIC SAFETY SALES TAX PLAN A NON-STARTER AT CAPITOL The City Council's decision in February to ask the legislature for authority to levy a so-called public safety sales tax is dying a slow death at the capitol, reports Scott Russell in the Skyway News. SURPRISE: CITY REPEALS A MONEY-MAKING ORDINANCE Often criticized for padding the city general fund with excess regulations, the City Council on Friday did an about-face, repealing an ordinance that has been a dependable cash cow over the years. ALLEGED SERIAL BURGLAR ARRESTED A 33-year-old man suspected in several burglaries and car thefts in South Minneapolis has been arrested. NO ENDORSEMENT FOR CITY COUNCIL FROM 8TH WARD DFLERS As expected, 8th Ward DFLers did not endorse a City Council candidate at their convention at Martin Luther King Park on Saturday. After a sixth ballot that had Elizabeth Glidden winning 43 percent of the vote to Jeffrey Hayden's 42 percent, the gathering adjourned, setting the stage for a packed primary election in September. All this and more at http://www.mplsobserver.com -- Craig Cox Founder/Editor The Minneapolis Observer www.mplsobserver.com 612/721-0285 Support the independent media! Pick up your neighborhood newspaper! REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Sid and stadia
As long as we're on the topic of Sid, why not add this excerpt from the morning sports section in which Sid proves why he's in sports, not polling? Can you say push-polling, Sidney? This newspaper ran a poll in Sunday's newspaper asking for opinions about the Hennepin County stadium plan. Well, I am not a professional pollster, but I would have added a couple of questions that I think are important. The first question I would ask is: Would you rather have a Hennepin County-wide sales tax of 0.15 percent to build the stadium, or allow the Twins to leave here and lose baseball? Believe me, if this stadium plans falls through, the Twins are done fighting for a stadium and the owners will either cut the payroll to $25 million from the present $56 million or sell the team to somebody who might move it. Second, I would ask if the people polled knew the state income tax paid by the Twins and visiting players, combined with the additional sales tax earned, could run up to an estimated $11 million a year in a new stadium. The sales tax from building materials also would provide a lot of money to the state. Third, I would have asked if the people polled understood the number of jobs a stadium costing $478 million would provide. Fourth, I would ask if there should be a referendum on the stadium, when there wasn't one when the Minneapolis City Council spent $4.7 million moving the Shubert Theater and gave $35 million to the Guthrie Theater and other government-sponsored projects. Then I would ask if the people polled had any idea of the extent of the crime problems downtown and what 81 home games would do to improve that situation. Those games would attract more business downtown. And last but not least, I would have made sure I polled some of the nursing homes and some shut-ins and get their reaction on how different their lives would be if they didn't have 162 Twins games to listen to on radio and watch on television. Incidentally, the callers on WCCO Radio on Sunday morning voted 14-2 in favor of a stadium, although some also wanted a roof on it. Steve Brandt Star Tribune/Kingfield REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Sid and stadia
Second, I would ask if the people polled knew the state income tax paid by the Twins and visiting players, combined with the additional sales tax earned, could run up to an estimated $11 million a year in a new stadium. The sales tax from building materials also would provide a lot of money to the state. Third, I would have asked if the people polled understood the number of jobs a stadium costing $478 million would provide. Fourth, I would ask if there should be a referendum on the stadium, when there wasn't one when the Minneapolis City Council spent $4.7 million moving the Shubert Theater and gave $35 million to the Guthrie Theater and other government-sponsored projects. Then I would ask if the people polled had any idea of the extent of the crime problems downtown and what 81 home games would do to improve that situation. Those games would attract more business downtown. And last but not least, I would have made sure I polled some of the nursing homes and some shut-ins and get their reaction on how different their lives would be if they didn't have 162 Twins games to listen to on radio and watch on television. Incidentally, the callers on WCCO Radio on Sunday morning voted 14-2 in favor of a stadium, although some also wanted a roof on it. Steve Brandt Star Tribune/Kingfield Craig Here; Steve asks great questions. He should ask them of the mayor or get Rochelle Olson to ask them. Get STRAIT answers. If the mayor doesn't want to give strait answers, don't print them. I find it truly tragic that in under 4 years the seduction of RT has been completed. The innocent man standing on the podium or the street saying I was born in a great cityI want to die in a great city has gone completely political animal. Lets weigh the facts. 1. New Stadium in your downtown in a an area that everyone seems to think is a great place for it. 2. Tons of Union Jobs to build the project. 3. Stadium provides linkage of the new transit lines. North Star Which will help North Mpls. 4. Economic boom around stadium will be real. Which will help out North Mpls. 5. Old stadium will stay for a while. No black hole at that location. When it sells, big development area ready for mayor. 6. Direct subsidy by the city of Mpls is nil. Thus not violating the city ordinance passed shortly before RT was elected. 7. Rich suburbanite people who buy all the drugs and provide all the johns to the sex and drug trade will pick up almost 70-80 percent of the public cost of this stadium. 8. For RT this is a win win win situation. Yet he hangs way back and says little if anything. Good work Doug Growe. Lets analyze the politics here 1. RT afraid of upsetting the DFL delegates. 2. McLaughlin must vote for this or against this before the DFL convention. No one accused Peter of being an innocent. He's been a politician for a long time. If Peter votes for the stadium plan, he is saying I'll do what's right for all the citizens of Mpls. Translation he is willing to look out for the city while he has or doesn't have the DFL endorsement. Or if it costs him that endorsement. 3. RT on the other hand, who did not get DFL endorsement, who challenged a DFL incumbent, will run without DFL endorsement is willing to hide while the greatest single public building on his watch is being debated. Because he wants that DFL endorsement. Thus RT is willing to push the best interest of Mpls to the side while he tries desperately to be the Mayor of the DFL delegates gathering two weeks hence. Can you believe it? This is the same guy who wanted to live and die in a great city. Great reputations are forged in crisis. This stadium item is in the balance. Where is the Mayor? Craig Miller Former Fultonite and Camdenite Past supporter of RT Rybak Living in Rogers Minnesota [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Sid and stadia
According to Steve Brandt, Star Tribune sports columnist Sid Hartman wrote the following quoted material. In it, he appears to be interested in making sure citizens who are polled have all the facts. But is that his real interest? Or if it is, is Hartman perhaps himself suffering from the same lack of factual information the polled citizens are? It's my contention that's the real problem here. Partisans on both sides of the issues appear to know only a little about the facts, and only those which support their side. My questions and remarks are interspersed with Hartman's below. Hartman writes: This newspaper ran a poll in Sunday's newspaper asking for opinions about the Hennepin County stadium plan. Well, I am not a professional pollster, but I would have added a couple of questions that I think are important. The first question I would ask is: Would you rather have a Hennepin County-wide sales tax of 0.15 percent to build the stadium, or allow the Twins to leave here and lose baseball? I write: How about a state-side or metro-wide sales tax at an even smaller rate to prevent the Twin from leaving? Or, let's ask this question: would you rather have a county-wide sales tax of 0.15 percent to improve education, health care, homelessness or transportation (your pick), or would prefer to allow those problems fester? Remember that investing in preparing children for school has a better return than just about any investment we can make. Hartman writes: Second, I would ask if the people polled knew the state income tax paid by the Twins and visiting players, combined with the additional sales tax earned, could run up to an estimated $11 million a year in a new stadium. The sales tax from building materials also would provide a lot of money to the state. I write: Is that $11 million more in income and sales taxes than Twins and visiting players pay now? Is it an incremental increase resulting from having a new stadium? Frankly, that sounds like a fairly unsupportable and arbitrary number. Where's the evidence that the state will collect more income tax and sales tax from players as a result of a new stadium? This is especially suspect given the statement about building materials sales tax -- most of the materials used in constructing a new stadium and the infrastructure won't have a Minnesota state sales tax on them. Since Hennepin County taxpayers will pay $353 million of the costs, and the Twins only $125 million, the vast majority of any construction materials costs will be paid by the taxpayers. Does it make sense to transfer money from one pocket of government to another pocket of government, while spilling some change on the floor, and call that a net benefit for the state? For that matter, why should Hennepin County residents be the only taxpayers subsidizing this increase in sales tax revenue that goes to the State? Hartman writes: Third, I would have asked if the people polled understood the number of jobs a stadium costing $478 million would provide. I write: What jobs would those be, after the construction work was done? This kind of claim is made over and over for stadiums and arenas, but every competent economic study I've seen on the subject says that the number of jobs provided this way is actually very small. So, is that small number of jobs associated with a new stadium greater than the small number of jobs associated with the current stadium, the Metro Dome? And how much do those jobs pay? Couldn't we get the same jobs or more for less tax money through some other means? Hartman writes: Fourth, I would ask if there should be a referendum on the stadium, when there wasn't one when the Minneapolis City Council spent $4.7 million moving the Shubert Theater and gave $35 million to the Guthrie Theater and other government-sponsored projects. I write: There are several reasons why a referendum on a new stadium should happen but not on the other mentioned projects. Foremost is a state law requiring a referendum when a new sales tax is imposed by the county. I don't know where Hartman gets the $35 million figure, but the City Council most certainly did not give $35 million to the Guthrie. The Guthrie *did* ask the State for $35 million in bonding, however. The Shubert is owned by Artspace, a non-profit, so unlike Carl Pohlad, taxpayer money spent assisting that theater project is not enriching some individual or for-profit business. Hartman: Then I would ask if the people polled had any idea of the extent of the crime problems downtown and what 81 home games would do to improve that situation. Those games would attract more business downtown. Me: How many businesses? Or, how many businesses has the Dome attracted downtown? As far as I can tell, having the Dome downtown actually increases the crime rate in the area (I worked across the street from it for about 6 years). Why would a new stadium decrease crime? If everything
[Mpls] Stadium information
Hoping to better explain some facets of the proposed stadium deal, I wrote this story for the new edition of Skyway News: http://www.skywaynews.net/articles/2005/05/02/news/news01.txt There's also a comparison of what the public paid in other cities... http://www.skywaynews.net/pdfs/stadiums.pdf ...and the ticket prices in new ballparks versus the Metrodome http://www.skywaynews.net/pdfs/tickets.pdf Upfront disclaimer: The piece focuses more on deal facts than the political/moral debate surrounding the stadium. My belief is that these topics have (and are) being well-discussed in the community, but there's a lot that hasn't been said - or explained clearly - about the objective facts of the proposed agreement. My goal is to give people more information to form/cement their views. Stuff you may not have read before includes an objective analysis of the ticket price question and the rainout risk, the height of the proposed stadium versus the Metrodome (the result might surprise you), and who would actually own the stadium. Comments welcome, to me or the forum. David Brauer Editor, Skyway News/SW Journal REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] sports sections and newspaper bias
Jonathan Gaw wrote: More people read the classified than read the comics. That's a shame. I think of the jokes as my reward for having waded through the news. WizardMarks, Central Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Re: stadium
Leurquin, Ronald wrote: Dean makes some good points about a referendum. Referendums are bad government. They give the loudest voice (i.e. those with money) a disproportionate say in important government decisions. We elect representatives to make _informed_ decisions for us. When they abdicate that responsibility, they lesson oour representative democracy. I have said NO and will continue to say NO to any form of taxpayer funded stadium. How, then, would you propose to fund a stadium. Either we put in some public money or we lose the Twins. Maybe you don't care about that, and that's fine, but don't presume to speak for those of us who see baseball as a real asset. Last week I asked the forum what we gain from building a new stadium that we do not now have? It's quite simple. The ballpark will anchor downtown. It will give people outside the city a reason to visit. I really don't care all that much if the Vikings move to the 'burbs. It's a total of eight games over the whole year. Baseball is a whole other story. A ballpark downtown will ensure its continued vitality. Have you investigated the city's plans for the North Loop and Downtown East neighborhoods in the presence of a new Twin stadium and a vacating of the dome? Here's a link: http://www.ci.minneapolis.mn.us/master-plans/downtown-east-north-loop/ The land use plan is here: http://www.ci.minneapolis.mn.us/master-plans/downtown-east-north-loop/chapter_4.asp#TopOfPage Pay particularly close attention to the sections on the Metrodome Site, Freeway West and The Cut. This is a _fantastic_ plan that includes decking over the I-394 trenchway and reconnecting the downtown grid. This all becomes much less feasible without a ballpark to anchor the whole project. The ballpark will sit at the terminus of four major public transportation corridors (five if you count Central Corridor). One couldn't ask for a better site. In addition to providing a respectable venue for baseball, it will be a strong motivator to build out the public transportation plan that has been sitting at the Met Council since 2000. David Greene The Wedge REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Swedish expansionism on Park Avenue, FEST!
If you've wondered about what is going on on Park Avenue ... It is getting a face lift next to the American Swedish Institute at 26th and Park where they are adding a new building and cafe. Here are some details: http://www.americanswedishinst.org/asidb/faq.htm Steven Clift Ericsson NHood P.S. If any of you are interested in connecting with other folks interested in modern Scandinavian traditions next weekend read on below: --- Forwarded message follows --- From: Steven Clift [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject:FEST! Valborgsmassaofton.you must come! - Sat May 7 Send reply to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date sent: Sun, 01 May 2005 12:59:24 -0500 Ten years ago, yikes, I went to my first FEST! event - Valborgs their bonfire and games event. I was excited to find a group connected to modern Swedish and Scandinavian traditions. If you want to meet lots of friendly folks and always a large collection of international residents in the Twin Cities, join us this year. Be sure to RSVP [EMAIL PROTECTED] by May 6 and don't miss the games. Steven Clift FEST! Member --- Forwarded message follows --- To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: FEST [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date sent: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 19:30:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject:[f_e_s_t] FEST! Valborgsmassaofton.you must come! # FEST! e-NewsMarch-April 2005 Friends Encouraging Scandinavian Traditions Föreningen Efter Skandinaviska Traditioner # In this Newsletter - Next Event, May 7, Valborgsmassoafton - FEST! Members, lets here your stories... - Upcoming Events 2005 # NEXT EVENT Saturday May 7 at 4 pm on Nicollet Island, Minneapolis VALBORGSMÄSSOAFTON Spring is here again!! Help us celebrate it's arrival with outdoor activities on this, hopefully, wonderful spring day in May! The program starts at 4 pm on Nicollet Island, located in the Mississippi river between Downtown Minneapolis and St Anthony Main. We will play Brännboll and Kubb in the afternoon and light the bon fire in the early evening. Hot dogs and non-alcoholic drinks are included in the $5 fee. BYO is the rule for beer, wine and other drinks. For those who can stay after the darkness of the night has fallen and seen the fire slowly develop into embers, will get a chance to bake your own bread on a stick! Info on Kubb: http://www.vmkubb.com/about/whatiskubb.asp Info on Brännboll: http://www.brennball.de/english/index.htm Program: 4 pm Meet at Nicollet Island 4.30 pmBrännboll and Kubb games start 6-6.30 pm We will light the fire and start the grill for hot dogs Cost: Members and Non-members : $5 Please let us know if you will attend by responding to this e-mail ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) by May 6. For more information call Ginny Karlsson at 612 825 4312. If a child answers the phonelycka till! LEAVE A MESSAGE! DIRECTIONS to exact location: [Please drop me an e-mail and I send them to you if you have RSVPed: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ] # NEXT YEAR- 2006- IS FEST!s 20 YEAR ANNIVERSARY! FEST! Members - LETS HERE YOUR STORY... Members, please send your stories from the past. Why did you join FEST!? What is the event you remember the most? How can we become better? Fun or sad stories - please share your memories with us! Send your stories to FEST!, 2600 Park Avenue, Mpls, MN 55407 or send them in an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # MARK YOUR CALENDAR!! UPCOMING EVENTS 2005 All events are held on Saturdays at ASI and start at 6.30 if not stated otherwise! June 11 - Summer dinner on the ASI veranda August 13 - Crayfish party!! November 12 - Annual meeting and movie # ^ ^ ^^ Steven L. Clift- - - W: http://publicus.net Minneapolis- - - - E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Minnesota - - - - - - T: +1.612.822.8667 USA- - - - - MSN/Y!/AIM: netclift UK Office Hours - 1pm - 11pm - - T: 0870.340.1266 Join my Democracies Online Newswire: http://dowire.org REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to:
[Mpls] Stadium: How Local Media Impoverishes Political Discourse (part 1)
The Sunday Strib on the stadium is a good example of how our local media impoverishes political discourse. The Strib ran a May 1 story entitled Few Want to Pay for Ball Park by Rochelle Olson and also an editorial entitled Twins and Sunshine/Hennepin County Steps Up. Doug Grow took our Mayor to task for waffling on the stadium issue while praising Peter McLaughlin for his clear support of the deal. Grow presents the Mayor's position as weak and worthy of scorn, while McLaughlin's salesmanship is praised as strong and noble. McLaughlin's glib assertion that shoppers from all over the world will pay for the project is proffered as Solomonic wisdom. In contrast, Rybak is concerned about adding a regressive tax on all of us every-day local shoppers to line the pockets of the billionaires and millionaires of the professional sports entertainment industry. Rybak's assertion that our schools, public safety, housing, and health care sectors are sorely in need of funding is glibly dismissed and characterized as waffling. The poor and middle class folks of Minneapolis and Hennepin County will pay a huge portion of this new tax while international shoppers will pay a pittance. McLaughlin waffles as Dr. Political Pangloss: On balance, in this imperfect world, this is a good deal. I think we can do some things to make it better, but this gets the ball rolling. Wise words? Pragmatic politician? Or waffling words offered on behalf of people with deep pockets who want their new playtoy? This playtoy also happens to be an utterly unsustainable bit of urban infrastructure that will only serve to make traffic congestion worse while it slowly drains hundreds of millions of dollars from the pockets of the poor and middle class into the coffers of the wealthy. Those who want this want it badly. Surely they feel as entitled to this reverse welfare as the poor feel entitled to decent pay and basic health care. But there is no stopping this project. And once the toy is bought the terms of the deal can be changed over the years so that even more cost is shifted to taxpayers. The Strib gives us Dumb and Dumber Does News In Minneapolis. Rochelle Olsen presents this as unneeded conflict. Slow, stodgy critics hinder brave, breathless proponents of the brilliant billionaire's bilk-the-poor plan. The news consumer will babble semi-coherently: Who will win? Golly, gee-whiz, there really are two sides to this, aren't there? I sure hope they tell us if the poor underdog billionaires/millionaires get that little tiny bit of money from us for that cool new toy! Oh dear, those people who believe that education, health care, and all that boring stuff are a priority may hurt this deal! Doug Grow does a double-Dr-Pangloss best of all possible world's jig with Peter McLaughlin. Two Panglosses are better than one! One is a politician and one a journalist -- perfect dance partners. Sadly in our best of all possible worlds we must cut funds for schools, public safety, and healthcare for the poor while we impose a new regressive tax on the poor for the further enrichment of the already super-rich and the entertainment of the merely affluent. The Strib editorial puts frosting on our news product cake. For reasons that are political, cultural, and dysfunctional (Oh my God, no! we shudder) the state and the Twins have slumped miserably and perpetually on this matter. (Oh, God, not that -- not perpetual slumping!! we consumers of news product sag visibly.) Ready with perky baseball metaphor, a shaming mention of our (a-hem) wayward referendum-crazy sister-state California, and a scary-sweet sunshine in Pleasantville twist, the consumers of news product are taught by the stern editorial father: we must serve these billionaires and millionaires or else all will be lost. Will Minneapolis be perpetually shamed in darkness with our Mayor (that silly bleeding-heart) or will we be ushered into the sunshine by four gallant political knights who are champions of the downtrodden super-rich and are true heroes of the corporate-welfare state? There it is. Never mind that we are loading even more debt on our children with a new regressive tax. Schools, public safety, and healthcare are all brushed aside with airy ease as the Strib carefully positions the super-rich and the affluent as victims. The poor and middle class are painted as perpetrators of shameful crimes against democracy. Only our elected officials can make informed decisions, after all. The masses are not citizens, but mere consumers of politics and media and so cannot know enough to speak. But wait, there's more! --pedaling for peace and ecojustice from Lynnhurst, for now -- Gary Hoover REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the
Re: [Mpls] Hey Peter! Hey RT! Hey Aaron Hey Ed!
Aaron Neumann wrote: In the spirit of fairness and mutual responsibility, I would support a new ballpark for the Twins on these grounds: There is a community ownership component to the Twins (it is proposed that citizens pay 2/3 of the cost - why not have the public own stock in the Twins and therefore the investments - such as stadiums - made in them?) Rep. Kahn has introduced such a bill. It's a pipe dream. It'll never happen as long as baseball is exempt from antitrust regulation. The last thing the owners want is the public looking at their financial books. Might as well give up on this now. It's not a battle worth fighting. For the record, I would love to see some level of public ownership of the Twins (the more, the better). But I also live in the world of reality politics. We've got to get what we can. OR: This tax is spread out at least metro-wide (preferably state-wide), since folks from not just the Twin Cities and surrounding suburbs will be enjoying the added quality of life the proposed new stadium would provide. This I definitely agree with. Unfortunately, the governor's rule by sloagan is making that impossible. It's another abdication of leadership by a legislature that for some reason feels bound and gagged by one man (including the DFL!). Here's a story related to me about the problem. Around 50 or so constituents of Char Samuelson went to visit her at the capitol demanding greater investment in our schools, health care, etc. Her response was that she has to honor the governor over her constituents. When asked whether she represents her constituents or the governor, she said it was a tough question but that she has to stand by the governor. Anyone from New Brighton listening? Until this mess gets cleaned up, forget about any state or regional investment. I, for one, applaud our county commissioners for saving the day. Peter definitely pulled ahead in the mayoral race for me. Here's someone willing to put his career on the line for what he believes to be a public good. My mind's not made up, but R.T. had better come out from hiding and state his intentions. AND/OR: a combination of these two - INCLUDING the retractable roof component (this is Minnesota, after all) if we are primarily paying for it. I disagree about the roof. There's nothing particularly unique about our climate that requires a roof. OR: Polad Inc. pay for the entire effort- roof or no roof. Not gonna happen. Look at the deals made around the country. Public investment is always the biggest chunk of the funding. Now, you are entitled to think this position is in the lower depths, but in reality this is about economic fairness and mutual (public-private) responsibility. Fairness has nothing at all to do with politics. What ever gave you that idea? Certainly there is an element of public-private responsibility and I for one have been working to increase the pressure on our leaders to consider the public good. I happen to think a stadium serves that public good. Ultimately politics is about power and compromise. Those with the power get to make the compromises. We can either complain about it all day or push our way to the table. Which will we choose to do? David Greene The Wedge REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Strib Sport Section
WizardMarks wrote: That's a shame. I think of the jokes as my reward for having waded through the news. Deb sez: Imagine, then, how women feel if they *do* read the Strib Sports Section to go front to back through some ten pages and not see a single woman pictured or mentioned at all. ;^) Deborah in Linden Hills REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] How Local Media Impoverishes Political discussion (part 2)
(Note: I wrote the following late Sunday night. Discussion of the Strib's coverage very much still applies. Will the Strib continue to uphold the wall of separation between news product and the environment Will other media dare to challenge the validity of our sacrifice to the Gods of Sacred sport? And, how many Hummers can we park on the head of a baseball bat? Will our Mayor or challenger McLaughlin dare to mention the wall between urban infrastructure development and the environment or the wall between public policy and the environment? Read on, if you dare!) But wait, there's more! Tens of thousands of words have been dedicated to baseball, billionaires, and budgets for stadiums. This teapot tempest has been presented as though a stadium is today's special on a coffee-shop menu: Is this what I want to consume? Or are we adding equipment to make our city more competitive? Should we order this item to become more competitive with other cities, or something else? But there are crucial questions never asked. No words are written about how our urban infrastructure choices relate to ecological degradation, resource depletion, geopolitical disruption, economic dislocation, or resource wars. None. Not one word. Where does a stadium fit into our priorities when we consider that Minneapolis exists on a planet with an ecosystem in crisis? What role do we play in continuing or changing urban living patterns which cause geopolitical conflict, resource wars, resource depletion , global warming, watershed pollution and myriad other kinds of local environmental degradation? How does funding a stadium make sense at all? Many scientists and even a few brave politicians and business people warn us to make immediate decisions to alter our infrastructure and consumption patterns before we cause an ecological, geopolitical, and economic crash that will make this stadium teapot tempest seem like the insane distraction that it is. Building a stadium wastes resources on infrastructure that adds to our problems. We need to invest in sustainable urban infrastructure to solve these problems. Our species now grows like yeast in a barrel. Yeast in a barrel consumes nutrients at an exponentially increasing rate until the yeast hits the limits of the barrel and dies off. Can Dr. Pangloss describe how good that is for us? Or why we should remain dumbed-down consumers rather than citizens who leave their children a better world rather than a wasteland? Our local political conversation needs to be about an entirely different set of issues. We deserve better coverage from our local media. Are we citizens of a great city, state, and nation? Or are we dumbed-down consumers of carefully contrived news product designed to make us consume ever more? Our local media impoverishes political discourse. Will we ever get news and analysis, or simply manipulative news product which leads us like lambs to the slaughter? -- pedaling for peace and ecojustice -- from Lynnhurst for now -- Gary Hoover REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Carl Pohlad's Contribution
The biggest downside to me of this investment is that I don't see firm commitments from the team to provide affordable seats, and I don't see any way our investment can be protected against major league baseball going on a contraction binge. I understand the Twins are supposed to be committed to fighting contraction, but that isn't like having a nice fat penalty clause to cash out if the team goes away, is it? read david's article. it says that the twins are comitted to family seating and something like student night. they also said prices would be inline with other midwest cities, which, the dome is right now. also noted was the contraction issue. the ballpark comission gets 50% or the contraction money and any costs incurred by losing the tenant. my apologies to david if i got the numbers wrong. Note also that there WAS a referendum about the new Library. And the Guthrie provides service to the entire state, traveling around, offering presentations for school kids, etc. It's not a for-profit deal the way the Twins are, much less an organization that pretty much one person's property. the twins do clinics for kids around the state all summer long. their games can be seen and heard all across the state. the guthrie makes you pay for a seat to all performances. it may not be for profit but, the people running the show certainly make money and i bet it isn't a pittance. I'm looking at what's happening to our schools, and I think there's a real question to be asked here OK, baseball is a real asset. Is it worth more than a generation of well-educated kids? *All* spending decisions have to be evaluated in context, because whatever you spend on one thing you can't spend on something else. We don't just have to ask whether baseball is a real asset, but what we are willing to sacrifice to it. we are not sacrificing education for baseball if this deal goes through. education doesn't lose a penny in this deal. No, because people will drive to downtown, park their cars, go to the games, and then drive home. This won't anchor the downtown. Block E type stuff will do a lot more to anchor the downtown. the only thing block e has that is better is the businesses inside are open 365 where the ball park will sit unused many days of the year. john harris webber-camden REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Re: stadium
Andy Driscoll wrote: Not all referenda are bad, but we know a railroad job when we see it. And who's speaking for you in this discussion? Several posters have indicated that no one on this list supports the stadium plan. I was responding to that general message, not any particular individual. My choice of words was poor. And why should you people as a minority of stadium supporters prevail without proving your side is adequately supported. Why should rural legislators get to have a say in whether or how we impose taxes on the metro area? Because that's the way the system works. If the legislature and the governor approve the plan, then stadium supporters will prevail. If one disagrees, one should vote out the elgislators and the governor at the earliest possible opportunity. to private business, do so, but it is arrogant in the extreme to expect the public trough to feed the voracious appetite of the money-changers who field millionaire children as entertainment, diverting real resources from real needs to those who wallow in luxury as we speak. The public subsidizes private business all the time. Best Buy in Richfield, Block E, Mall of America, etc., etc., etc. This is not a new phenomenon. And the economics have proven elsewhere (including at the Hump) that catalytic development never really follows the public's investment ion private corporations, especially sports stadia. The Mall of America, for all its flaws, actually has spurred private and public investment. I remember when Hennipen Ave. used to be a place one didn't go after dark. For all their flaws, recent developments there have made a big difference. And why would anyone want to play or watch baseball in a cloud of burning garbage? This is a red herring. Hennepin Ave. gets at least as much, if not more, of the emissions from HERC. Twisted values if ever I've seen them. Tell that to me once you've spent considerable personal time working hard to make progress on issues of public good like education, transportation, domestic violence, immigration and health care. David Greene The Wedge REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Stop blaming marijuana for violence
On Monday, May 2, 2005, at 02:56 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If marijuana were legal, it wouldn't place any drain on our police department. Then the police could use those drained of resources on arresting murderers, rapists, armed robbers, etc and we would have the prison space needed to hold all the people who should be held in prison to protect the rest of us. Since marijuana only effects the people who use it and some people even have to use it for medicinal purposes and users are not hurting you or anyone else, legalization seems to offer all benefits and no harm. Robert Halfhill Loring Park Whether one is for legalizing marijuana sales or not, there are issues of addiction and behavior that can put users or intoxicants into a police inter action resulting in arrests. There are also issues of driving while intoxicated that can and do involve innocent bystanders and other drivers. Unlike cigarettes, there will likely be a standard of intoxication for legal marijuana and driving or machine operation will be precluded. The spectrum of users is also likely to be broad enough to include those who are otherwise engaged in criminal activities. I think legal marijuana will add another layer to police responsibility as well as adding new laws to handle the various situations. True, use/possession will be more defined and there will be fewer arrests or none for mere use or legal possession, but when this happens will be far in the future after law passage. Adding marijuana to cigarettes will pose additional health issues to the system (and costs) which all of us will have to cover one way or another. The (post-mortem) shrunken brains of addicted marijuana users shows that this is not a harmless pastime. I've not kept up with the lung damage studies, but I am sure they are out there, too. Hot smoke from any source is damaging to lung tissue. I think the drug dealers are counting on marijuana being illegal for some time to come. What do we do in the meantime? Best wishes, Laura Laura Waterman Wittstock Minneapolis, MN 612-387-4915 www.laurawatermanwittstock.com http://laurawatermanwittstock.blogspot.com/ REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] stadium
Dean wrote What do we gain? How about a modern ball park that has seats that face home plate, a place where you can go watch Major League Baseball on a gorgeous July evening and not feel bad because you are indoors. A place that isn't sterile and plastic -- where you can invite your out- of-town friends to come watch a game, instead of always going to their City. A ballpark that allows the Twins to be more economically stable so that payroll increases don't have to fall entirely on the back of increased ticket prices or force them to relocate to Las Vegas or Portland. A ballpark that is integrated into the City's downtown fabric and is complementary to and supports local restaurants, bars, shops, housing instead of being isolated by roads, parking lots, and industrial buildings. Is that gain equal or greater than our investment? I can't quantify it, but I know that it will exceed my 0.0015 increase in taxes investment many, many times over. Ron responds We already have a once modern ballpark downtown where you can watch baseball. Why should the taxpayers have to put money into a private entity to make it economically viable. Baseball in general only stands as it does because of the large public subsidies its received over the years. Maybe the owners and players could settle for a little less. I do on a regular basis. Carl has played the 'build it or lose it' card and failed, the Twins are still here. Carl has played toe 'contraction' card and the Twins are still here. Enough with the idle threats already. How does the presence of the Twins in a new stadium support the businesses in the area of the existing stadium? What about all of us that do not go near the stadium area during a game? If this is such a great deal then why are so many against it? I happen to think the Twins are a wonderful asset to the area, but its also a business that should pay its own way. I would much rather the Twins be here than somewhere else, but why should I pay for that? Maybe Carl could share the naming rights and advertising revenue with the taxpayers on an equal basis based upon investment. That would go a long way to making this thing a better sell. I just wonder how much a Twins funded stadium would cost compared to a taxpayer funded stadium? Anyone have any ideas on that? Ron Leurquin Nokomis East REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Re: stadium
I won't presume to speak for baseball lovers either. But I will presume to point out that the polls show that the overwhelming majority are opposed to spending their tax money on another stadium. What does it mean to anchor downtown. All I remember is that we were promised that the Metrodome would revitalize that part of downtown and all that happened was that the slum housing in that area was replaced by parking lots! Formerly private enterprises have found out how to hold the public sector over a barrel. Once the idea caught on of the goverment subsidizing private enterprises to develop their area caught on, private businesses, including private sports franchises, found they could get local governments competing to see who could offer the largest subsidies. The only way out of this vicious cycle is to say NO! NO FURTHER! Robert Halfhill Loring Park http://halfhillviews.greatnow.com http://www.thepen.us/e-fraud.html REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Sly Di offers to negotiate stadium, police funding, transit, etc. deal (Rybak waffling on Stadium? Not here.)
My evil twin Sly Di has an incredible skill at bargaining, and when the dealing gets serious I let her take over. Granted she took months to procure my last new car and made me go to Iowa to get my last new motorcycle, but I wouldn't have much of any personal wealth without her. Lately she's outdone herself, picking up a twice marked down cattle prod on 10% off day at Fleet Supply in Paynesville- by the time she gets all the rebate money back she'll have made enough on the deal to buy us both dinner at the Asian buffet in Willmar next trip. I don't let Sly Di near the computer much, she gets people all mad and servers crash in the flame wars she starts. But she's got that new cattle prod all charged up and she's comin' toward me with it. Yh! Dyna's a nice lady, but she'd much too nice and has this fantasy that people will give you a good deal because their nice too. I realize that everything is for sale and deals are everywhere whether we see them or not. And nothing is off the market- heck, I'd even whore or sell drugs if the market wasn't so saturated with $10 crack whores. Politics though gives a pretty good return on investment, provided you fill out those campaign finance reports right and stay outa jail. And when politics moves into the realm of big time public works like stadiums, there's billions to be made. Now Minneapolis needs some tough negotiators at the table (and bar, back alley, etc.). Now Peter McLaughlin does OK with his own money, last I remember he was driving a Ford Escort. But last time he went shopping for transit for us after a couple decades he brought home an oddball short leg of a light rail system for nearly a billion dollars. If I were doing it the first commuter train would have highballed while Ronnie Regean was still tracking and by now we'd have a system that covered most of Minnesota. Plus we'd have the system turning a profit by charging freight railroads to use our tracks during the off hours. Clearly we need to keep Peter as far from the negotiations as possible- perhaps this would be a good time to send him on a fact finding trip somewhere? RT, on the other hand, clearly has potential as a dealmaker- he drives an expensive hybrid car, but he got us taxpayers to pay for it. And before anybody gets upset about this petty borrowing from the city fleet, remember that Sharon borrowed a fully equipped Crown Vic PI and an officer to chauffer her. That appropriation pales in comparison to the governors Lincoln and what seems like half the State Patrol on overtime protecting him pretty much from himself. But I believe most of them would support regional sales taxes for something broader. We've got to get into a different discussion in this community where we're not just saying 'No new taxes,' we're saying, 'How do we pay for great things?' The ballpark is one of them, but it's a lower priority than schools and roads and police. R.T. has potential as a hard bargainer, unlike Peter and other politicos who just hand over the taxpayer's charge card and never ask the price. But he needs a tougher opening gambit, announced at a news conference at maybe a homeless shelter within sight of the proposed stadium. Heck, instead of being vague, I'd demand funding for public safety, at least two commuter rail lines, and upgrading education in a deal that would be at least revenue neutral if not profitable for Minneapolis. Actually, I'd let R.T. make that offer as I usually play the bad cop in negotiations... I'd slip up to the mike and in dark tones describe the crime wave that would descend on fans without adequate police funding. And the gridlock if we don't get commuter rail and other transit built and rolling in all directions from the stadium by opening day. If that didn't do the job, I'd hint at another Northside riot overrunning the game if the economic development weren't spread all the way to the city limits! Fortunately Sly Di has now learned to type with both hands and thus let go of the cattle prod... regaining control in Hawthorne, Dyna Sluyter REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Re: stadium
Actually, the information presented to the public about the HERC incinerator has been a point of contention with neighbors in Northeast and other parts of the City. Even if it doesn't get much media coverage. I'm not sure how easy access the public even has to modeling studies which I understand to have been done before construction/operation, and I have not had a chance to review them (but would be interested in doing so). The basic point of contention is that the studies are theoretical and not empirical. A sure fire way to resolve who is getting more or less pollution from the incinerator would have been to perform background tests looking at dioxin levels or some other incinerator pollutant (mercury may not be the best because there are other sources like Riverside in the area), and see if levels are increasing or decreasing in any particular area around the incinerator and/or miles out. Since none of this work has been done, the public has no way of gauging their exposure based on on any real data. If you check with Minneapolis Environmental Management you'll find that the incerator pollution controls fail from time to time (to the point of getting fined significantly), meaning anyone in the vicinity may be getting more bad air then they bargained for on the wrong day. Without data, who's to say who's getting the bulk of the incinerator's pollution? Another bonus for the incinerator is due to the fact they are considered a waste treatment facility they do not have to disclose their emissions to the Toxic Release Inventory--creating even less public transparency. Circumventing public input (other than tax revenue) seems to be the theme of the stadium, so maybe it's appropriate that it be located right next to a gargbage burner that aspires to do the same. Justin Eibenholzl Armatage Resident SE Como Environmental Coordinator From: David Brauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: mpls@mnforum.org Subject: Re: [Mpls] Re: stadium Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 12:54:05 -0500 On May 2, 2005, at 12:36 PM, Andy Driscoll wrote: And why would anyone want to play or watch baseball in a cloud of burning garbage? Even though they have less power, I think critics of the deal need to be as responsible as they want proponents to be. There is no cloud of burning garbage at the site. The smell all comes from ground-level deliveries (there's more about this in the Skyway story link I sent earlier today). The burner's stack shoots the pollutants high into the sky where they drift away from the facility. Study after study - unchallenged by environmentalists, as far as I know - show that the highest particulate fallout with prevailing wind patterns occurs at a point in North Minneapolis and in the Phillips neighborhood. That environmental justice situation predates the ballpark and the stadium has no effect on how it will continue in the future. David Brauer Kingfield REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Neiman Complex decisions before my time - info delivered toStone - apologies to List
Candidate Kummer wrote: I was not on the Park Board during the initiation of the Ft. Snelling/Neiman Complex and so, although I have tried to supply Mr. Stone with the information he seeks, I am unable to answer all questions to his satisfaction. So, I dropped a packet of documents at his home this evening. It contains a copy of the Tin Fish contract and copies of MPRB meeting agendas for the time period that covers development of the Fort Snelling/Neiman Complex (beginning in 1998 through April 2003.) My response is that this doesn't address the largest concerns. I want to know what the operating costs and annual debt service are for all of these projects. After all, as a resident I am in effect a stock holder in the public enterprise, and I want to what the heck you're doing with my money. Dropping a packet off at my office is not satisfactory. This should be public access on the net, and it is not. From what I can tell, the Park Board has made some poor decisions, not accounted for operating costs, has become obsessed with turning our parks into revenue generating commercial concerns, and has run from accountability by hiding the numbers. Can anyone out there post just what our debt liability and service are at Fort Snelling for those fields that, as far as I can tell, don't serve the people of Minneapolis? I was at this crazy thing in Edina this weekend. A huge indoor playground for little kids. I was told that there are several of these things in the suburbs. If Minneapolis wants to attract family's in the future, we'd better get off our rears, stop building pay for use adult ball fields and restaurants, and concern ourselves with pools, free for use fields that kids will use, cleaning up the river so that it can lend another generation of kids their Tom Sawyer fantasies, and maybe even compete with our suburbs and build some indoor playgrounds. Minneapolis used to have a great park system. Now the bathrooms are closed and I have to pay fees for things that used to be free. For those of you who think we have a great system, good for you. I just know that I used to use the parks, and I don't so much anymore. Jeremy Wieland Circulation Director Utne magazine Northeast -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of CAROL KUMMER Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 7:58 PM To: mpls@mnforum.org Subject: [Mpls] Neiman Complex decisions before my time - info delivered toStone - apologies to List List manager, readers and Jason: Although the list rules do not seem to specifically prohibit campaigning online, I have not seen any other candidates debating via this format. Supporters have weighed in but none of those running have engaged in a campaign dialogue here - with the exception of my opponent and me. I would like to apologize for allowing myself to get drawn into this inappropriate exchange. I will, however, continue to answer private messages and have done my best to answer the questions posed so far. I was not on the Park Board during the initiation of the Ft. Snelling/Neiman Complex and so, although I have tried to supply Mr. Stone with the information he seeks, I am unable to answer all questions to his satisfaction. So, I dropped a packet of documents at his home this evening. It contains a copy of the Tin Fish contract and copies of MPRB meeting agendas for the time period that covers development of the Fort Snelling/Neiman Complex (beginning in 1998 through April 2003.) If he will make a list of the committee actions that he is interested in and then e-mail it to Superintendent Gurban, the Superintendent will have the items copied and sent. This seems to be the best way for Mr. Stone to get what he wants regarding the Complex. I also included a copy of the chapter Revenue-Producing Activities and Kindred Accommodations from the book Minneapolis Park System 1883-1944 written by Theodore Wirth. It provides the early history of granting the privilege to operate concessions, an exposition of the earlier practices of providing services through private contracts. For anyone interested in park issues, there will be an opportunity to hear a discussion between Jason and me at the candidate forum on Tuesday, May 10th at the CWA Hall, 35th Avenue South and East Lake Street. Library Board candidates are scheduled from 7-8 pm and Park District 5 candidates from 8-9 pm. Please attend for a face-to-face airing of the issues. Lastly, the City Convention where park endorsements are conducted will undoubtedly have a question and answer period before the voting. If you have a question for me before then, please don't hesitate to call me at 612-722-0370 or write to me at [EMAIL PROTECTED] FYI - Jason: This seems to be the best way for you to get what you want regarding the Complex. Sorry I missed you tonight when I delivered this information to your home. Carol Kummer Commissioner candidate Park District 5 NENA resident
Re: [Mpls] Stop blaming marijuana for violence
Once again and again... I have previously pointed out that people would still be legally responsible for endangering or hurting others while drunk or high. The situation with marijuana would be the same as it now is with alcohol; drinking is legal but drunk driving is not. If we had not repealed prohibition, we would still suffer all the harm we suffer from drunk driving and excessive alcohol use that we suffer now. But we would also suffer the additional harm from the extra growth in organized crime that prohibition would have fueled. Would you anti repeal people at least remember what has been previously pointed out and stop arguing in circles? I strongly question the hype about the allegedly shrunken brains from marijuana use since marijuana is a herb that has been safely used throughout the 5000 years of recorded history. There is good reason to think that marijuana smoke, like tobacco smoke, is carcinogenic. But as with alcohol prohibition, the ill health effects of marijuana smoking would be no greater than they now are if marijuana prohibition were ended. You neither can succeed in using the law to force people to act in the best interests of their health, nor should you. Biographies of F. Scott Fitzgerald and Dorothy Parker recount the tremendous damage people succeeded in doing to their health with excessive alcohol use during prohibition. Even if I believed in a God, I would see no reason to think that She or He put me here to supervise the rest of you, and I see no evidence that any of you have been put here for that reason either. Robert Halfhill Loring Park http://halfhillviews.greatnow.com http://www.thepen.us/e-fraud.html REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Sid and stadia
Twins and Pohlad: Leave. Please leave. Go. Be gone. Never come back. Hit up some other city for millions. Not us. Distract everyone from more important business, Not us. As long as you're here you'll be badgering us for money and time. So Leave. Please leave. Go. Be gone. Never come back. --David Shove Roseville On Mon, 2 May 2005, Steve Brandt wrote: As long as we're on the topic of Sid, why not add this excerpt from the morning sports section in which Sid proves why he's in sports, not polling? Can you say push-polling, Sidney? This newspaper ran a poll in Sunday's newspaper asking for opinions about the Hennepin County stadium plan. Well, I am not a professional pollster, but I would have added a couple of questions that I think are important. The first question I would ask is: Would you rather have a Hennepin County-wide sales tax of 0.15 percent to build the stadium, or allow the Twins to leave here and lose baseball? Believe me, if this stadium plans falls through, the Twins are done fighting for a stadium and the owners will either cut the payroll to $25 million from the present $56 million or sell the team to somebody who might move it. Second, I would ask if the people polled knew the state income tax paid by the Twins and visiting players, combined with the additional sales tax earned, could run up to an estimated $11 million a year in a new stadium. The sales tax from building materials also would provide a lot of money to the state. Third, I would have asked if the people polled understood the number of jobs a stadium costing $478 million would provide. Fourth, I would ask if there should be a referendum on the stadium, when there wasn't one when the Minneapolis City Council spent $4.7 million moving the Shubert Theater and gave $35 million to the Guthrie Theater and other government-sponsored projects. Then I would ask if the people polled had any idea of the extent of the crime problems downtown and what 81 home games would do to improve that situation. Those games would attract more business downtown. And last but not least, I would have made sure I polled some of the nursing homes and some shut-ins and get their reaction on how different their lives would be if they didn't have 162 Twins games to listen to on radio and watch on television. Incidentally, the callers on WCCO Radio on Sunday morning voted 14-2 in favor of a stadium, although some also wanted a roof on it. Steve Brandt Star Tribune/Kingfield REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Swedish expansionism on Park Avenue, FEST!
this is not new news - I believe they were supposed to break ground originally in 2002. I do know that they are demolishing a building on the site. I do not believe that they are breaking ground for the new building as of yet since their capitol campaign has not raised enough funds. Liz Greenbaum Longfellow [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you've wondered about what is going on on Park Avenue ... It is getting a face lift next to the American Swedish Institute at 26th and Park where they are adding a new building and cafe. Here are some details: http://www.americanswedishinst.org/asidb/faq.htm Steven Clift Ericsson NHood REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Parking at the new ball park
I know someone can answer these questions. First, who gets the revenue from the parking lots. Second, has anyone looked at the ramps to see if they can handle baseball crowds that all arrive and depart at the same time. The prospect of 5, 000 cars starting up in the same fifteen minutes and heading for the few exits is scary. The Baltimore Orioles looked into building a parking ramp at Camden Yards but found that they would need exit ramps from each level to make it work. The Minnesota Orchestra was told that the chief complaint from attendees was congestion in the parking ramp after concerts. So, what's the answer? Clark Griffith, Lowry Hill REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Carl Pohlad's Contribution
JH == John Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The biggest downside to me of this investment is that I don't see firm commitments from the team to provide affordable seats, and I don't see any way our investment can be protected against major league baseball going on a contraction binge. I understand the Twins are supposed to be committed to fighting contraction, but that isn't like having a nice fat penalty clause to cash out if the team goes away, is it? JH read david's article. it says that the twins are comitted to family JH seating and something like student night. they also said prices would JH be inline with other midwest cities, which, the dome is right now. JH also noted was the contraction issue. the ballpark comission gets 50% JH or the contraction money and any costs incurred by losing the tenant. The problem to me is that the Twins are committed isn't the kind of commitment we can take to court. Or am I wrong about that? The Twins are a business. When you do business, you have to count on contracts, and what you can demand as your right. You can't count on simple pronouncements of good intention, because those are liable to go overboard when things change. Look at what's happened with NWA: we spend a ton of dough on them in exchange for an intention to hire, things change, the intention goes away, and we don't have any way to get back our investment. Note also that there WAS a referendum about the new Library. And the Guthrie provides service to the entire state, traveling around, offering presentations for school kids, etc. It's not a for-profit deal the way the Twins are, much less an organization that pretty much one person's property. JH the twins do clinics for kids around the state all summer long. their JH games can be seen and heard all across the state. the guthrie makes JH you pay for a seat to all performances. it may not be for profit but, JH the people running the show certainly make money and i bet it isn't a JH pittance. I'm sorry, but I'm missing something in the above: it's not for profit, but the people running it are making money The not for profit part means that there are no investors who are pulling a profit off the top. If you mean the employees are making money, I think you should stop and ask yourself what you think the people you see on stage at the Guthrie make versus the ballplayers Your assertions above about the economics of theater are simply not true. Drama (and classical music, Opera, etc.) is overall a losing proposition economically, that must be sponsored by the state or philanthropy. To the extent these art forms were ever profitable, that was in a time with radically different labor economics. The Minnesota Opera charges about $60 a ticket, and must get a lot of its costs covered by philanthropy. Think of all the people that must be on stage: the orchestra, the chorus, etc., etc. I'm looking at what's happening to our schools, and I think there's a real question to be asked here OK, baseball is a real asset. Is it worth more than a generation of well-educated kids? *All* spending decisions have to be evaluated in context, because whatever you spend on one thing you can't spend on something else. We don't just have to ask whether baseball is a real asset, but what we are willing to sacrifice to it. JH we are not sacrificing education for baseball if this deal goes JH through. education doesn't lose a penny in this deal. Why not? The tax money that's going to the stadium is not going to education. And it's not an investment like building a factory, that will produce wealth that can be spent on education. At best, this money will create a small increment to taxes that could eventually trickle down to education, but up front it's money that's not available for education, health care, bombs, or whatever other cause is close to your heart. Furthermore, this is not a good investment from the standpoint of return on the dollar alone (as I've said, I think that baseball is, in general, a good thing, but I don't think we should pretend it's a good thing in ways that it is not). When you spend money on one thing, you don't have that money, so you can't spend it on something else. If we take this money and spend it on the stadium, it's not there to spend on education. No, because people will drive to downtown, park their cars, go to the games, and then drive home. This won't anchor the downtown. Block E type stuff will do a lot more to anchor the downtown. JH the only thing block e has that is better is the businesses inside are JH open 365 where the ball park will sit unused many days of the JH year. That's not at all true. The thing that Block E has better from the standpoint of Minneapolis taxpayers is that it is not a walled-off location
Re: [Mpls] Hey Peter! Hey RT! Hey Aaron Hey Ed!
Even better yet, why don't we (the Metropolitan area) just build the stadium ourselves and rent it to Pohlad like we do the Dome. Same scenario - we spread out the tax metro-wide (preferably state-wide), put it up for a vote/referendum (and preferably with a retractable roof!) , and collect rent from the Twins and other events, or whomever in the future (in case he pulls the Twins out to Vegas or some-other rare viable market)? Seems like a win-win, except that Pohlad Inc. doesn't get as sweet of a deal, as his highly-trained and well-financed lawyers will point out. Thinking of this in terms of a public real-estate deal has helped my outlook on this! Aaron Neumann Sheridan Neighborhood, NE Jon Gorder wrote: So, Let's play ball and let's play fair! Aaron Neumann Sheridan Neighborhood, NE I agree. I live in Ramsey County now and will be happily attending Twins games in an outdoor park. I deserve to share the burden. If St. Paul joined in this venture (don't hold your breath) the tiny current cost would drop to infinitesimal. It would probably spur faster work on the inter-city light rail line also. I would love to walk ten minutes to University ave. and take a train right to the game. Jon Gorder Cathedral Hill REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Stop blaming marijuana for violence
Laura and lloyd wrote: I think legal marijuana will add another layer to police responsibility as well as adding new laws to handle the various situations. True, use/possession will be more defined and there will be fewer arrests or none for mere use or legal possession, but when this happens will be far in the future after law passage. I think retracting the marijuana laws has more facets than those mentioned. The trade in illegal drugs is not the trade of the 60s. It's grown up tremendously and is now a corporate enterprise. Separating out marijuana from cocaine and heroine and whatever else, from a legal and police practice paradigm will be a complex business to accomplish. Whether we agree or not, there are maybe millions of jobs tied up in the war on drugs with FBI, ATF, DEA, city police, county sheriffs, on and on, seemingly forever. What I can't see, ultimately, is how to untangle such a construction except to legalize it and tax the juice out or it. WizardMarks, Central Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Strib and Mayday Parade
Well, May-B that's all part of the essence...it's too wild and wonderful for the mainstream media... But... HOBT puts up slideshows of past parades on their website and some people even put up images on their own websites... The internet opens all doors to the freedom of expression that the conservative media denies us...here are some examples of DIY websites of May Day parade images from the past...I hope to see some from 2005! If you have dial-up internet this takes 4 ever to load...but it's still great! http://www.tcinternet.net/users/scottcl/images_dir/mayday_2004/mayday2004.as p This one is a little faster... http://www.tc.umn.edu/~deva0019/MayDay/over.html I'm sure there are more out there! Madeline Douglass Kingfield REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Minneapolis Mayor candidates.
RT Ryback got his present job because its previous holder, Sharon Sayles Belton was pro-stadium and was percieved to be in the pocket of developers who benefited from the city's financing of downtown development projects, gentrification, etc. But its been business as usual in city hall with Ryback in charge. And that hasn't hurt Ryback's ability to raise money for his re-election campaign. McLaughlin, with his unflinching support for a Twins stadium must be in the race for Mayor to help Ryback get the DFL nomination. At least RT is withholding his endorsement! (until after the election) I don't know much about Green Party candidate Farheen Hakeem. No web site yet. http://www.hakeemformayor.org I caught part of an interview with RT Ryback on cable channel 17 last night (I inadvertantly taped it). Speaking about shootings and other quality of life issues in high-poverty areas on the Northside, one of the solutions offered by hizzoner was more community involvement, like folks joining block clubs. No real solutions, just cliches. Ryback is not proposing to take any steps to rapidly eliminate areas of concentrated poverty (without running poor people out of town) such as by enforcing fair employment and housing laws. HUD, (US Department of Housing and Urban Development) did a housing market survey in 2000, which found that illegal, race based discrimination was common in the Twin Cities. And the 2000 census classified about 98% of residents in Minneapolis ward 13 (SW corner) as white, non-hispanic. Just a coincidence? I suspect that many employers who are required to have affirmative action plans have been employing a strategy of minimum compliance when it comes to hiring, retaining, and promoting people of color, especially African Americans. I have worked at several nursing homes in the Twin Cities, and checked out many others while job hunting. African-Americans often work in the kitchen for minimum wage, and whites predominated in the Nursing Dept, except in nursing homes where wages for the nursing assistants are at the low end. If this situation is fundamentally different from how things are done in most other industries, corrective action would have been taken. (I have attempted to file complaints with agencies like the Minnesota Human Rights Dept, Minneapolis Civil Rights Dept., but didn't have standing to file complaints because I appear to be white, wasn't denied employment, etc.) The city could reduce illegal race-based discrimination in employment and housing markets by doing surveys like those done in the housing market by HUD, which collects data about racial discrimination by sending out mixed-race (eg White-black) teams to apply for apartment leases, ask real estate agents for information about available housing for sale, etc. HUD has rarely used information collected by survey teams to prosecute discriminators. However, information collected by a city-sponsed survey program could be used to prosecute discriminators. Fair play in the employment and housing market is in the best interests of a majority of Minneapolis residents who have to work for a living. Unfortunately, the people who write the big checks for mayoral candidates who are support the status quo. Doug Mann, LPN King Field (8th ward) www.educationright.com REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Swedish expansionism on Park Avenue, FEST!
Please note that this new facility for a major cultural institution in our city will be accomplished without raising anybody's sales taxes and without a referendum! David Curle East Harriet Steven Clift wrote: If you've wondered about what is going on on Park Avenue ... It is getting a face lift next to the American Swedish Institute at 26th and Park where they are adding a new building and cafe. Here are some details: http://www.americanswedishinst.org/asidb/faq.htm REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Minneapolis Public Library Caught Throwing Books in Dumpster
This weekend I got an email from a website visitor telling me about books in a dumpster at the NE library. I thought that's interesting, so I checked it out and ta-da! There were some perfectly good books in the dumpster at the Minneapolis Public Library Branch on Central Ave. I don't know about you, but that's pretty wasteful. Anyway, I have a longer story about it and several photos at http://www.southhighsucks.com/minneapolislibrarythrowsoutbooks.html Anyway, I just thought people might like to know. It's kind of sick them doing this, especially since there have been so many budget cuts and things of that nature. Chris David Columbia Park http://www.southhighsucks.com/ REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Neiman Complex decisions before my time - info delivered toStone - apologies to List
Candidate Kummer wrote: I was not on the Park Board during the initiation of the Ft. Snelling/Neiman Complex and so, although I have tried to supply Mr. Stone with the information he seeks, I am unable to answer all questions to his satisfaction. So, I dropped a packet of documents at his home this evening. It contains a copy of the Tin Fish contract and copies of MPRB meeting agendas for the time period that covers development of the Fort Snelling/Neiman Complex (beginning in 1998 through April 2003.) Copies of the meeting agendas for 1998 to 2003 are going to answer financial questions about the Neiman Complex? Is Candidate Carol Kummer serious? Anyone who has seen a few Park Board agendas would know the following: 1. They are very sketchy on details. Often all that is listed about an item is a bullet point title. 2. Since they are agenda documents, they don't say a thing about what the commissioners actually decide by vote on an issue, nor do they record any discussions where questions, answers and concerns might be addressed. 3. Park Board agendas have been notorious for not even listing all of the business considered. Major votes -- such as the purchase of the Taj Mahal new headquarters building -- were not even listed on the agenda, but were slipped in late at night. If this is what Carol Kummer calls [trying] to supply [a constituent] with the information he seeks, is it any wonder that many people think the Park Board is intentionally making it difficult to check up on how they are spending our money? This is just another of many examples of lack of transparency and accountability by the majority five Park Commissioners, and is one of many reasons why Carol Kummer, Bob Fine, Walt Dziedzic and Jon Olson should not be re-elected. Jeremy Wieland asks: Can anyone out there post just what our debt liability and service are at Fort Snelling for those fields that, as far as I can tell, don't serve the people of Minneapolis? Our debts at Fort Snelling include at a minimum $14,000,000.00 in bonds being paid off over roughly 30 years, with annual payments just a bit over $1,000,000. Some people might include the $2,500,000.00 in legal claims against the Park Board for unpaid work at the Drill Hall (aka the 201 building) in the debt liability at Fort Snelling, as well. The way the Park Board has handled money in the recent past is highly questionable. On August 14, 2002, the majority voted to authorize a loan of up to $1,050,000.00 from the self insurance fund to help buy the Taj Mahal headquarters building. Somehow magically without board approval, that loan turned into a transfer in 2004, thus never to be repaid directly. Doesn't that sound like misfeasance? It does to me. -- Chris Johnson Fulton REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Stop blaming marijuana for violence
Wizard makes a good point. Others have argued that the millions tied up in law enforcement, prison space, rehab, tons of literature, and prevention education would suffer under legal marijuana. And it is likely true that drug dealers doing exclusive business in marijuana are the rare birds of the trade. Everyone diversifies to broaden the customer and return business base. So both law enforcement and illicit sellers gain from continuing the status quo. Legal marijuana will have its own enterprises in rehab, counseling, lawyers in court over driving while high cases, and the likely billion dollar industry of growing, processing, and distributing marijuana for the market. The players change but the profits are still there. Its a win win. Best wishes, Laura On Monday, May 2, 2005, at 07:33 PM, wmmarks wrote: The trade in illegal drugs is not the trade of the 60s. It's grown up tremendously and is now a corporate enterprise. Separating out marijuana from cocaine and heroine and whatever else, from a legal and police practice paradigm will be a complex business to accomplish. Whether we agree or not, there are maybe millions of jobs tied up in the war on drugs with FBI, ATF, DEA, city police, county sheriffs, on and on, seemingly forever. What I can't see, ultimately, is how to untangle such a construction except to legalize it and tax the juice out or it. Laura Waterman Wittstock Minneapolis, MN 612-387-4915 www.laurawatermanwittstock.com http://laurawatermanwittstock.blogspot.com/ REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] U of M Survey finds that students are in support of the smoking ban
A recent survey of the smoking ban at the University of Minnesota found that the vast majority support the smoking ban. The student researchers who designed the survey where largely opposed to the ban and surprised by the results. According to the survey, 17% of students smoke, and of the those, half smoke only occasionally. David Strand Loring Park. http://www.mndaily.com/articles/2005/05/02/64445 __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com REMINDERS: 1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
