Re: Signal to Noise Ratio...

[Tim Bunce]

On Thu, Apr 05, 2001 at 09:12:08PM -0400, Steve Werby wrote:
> "Michael Widenius" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > This thing has been up a couple of times over the years. The problem
> > is that requiring people to be subscribers to the mailing list before
> > posting will only confuse the poor people that don't expect to get 100
> > emails per day after subscribing.
> 
> In that case, you may want to consider implementing a MLM (mailing list
> manager) that allows subscribers to disable mail delivery.  I know Mailman
> and some others have that feature.  What MLM is MySQL using?  In conjunction
> with that feature you could have an autoreply that gives non-subscribers who
> attempt to post a canned message with info. on the lists and instructions on
> subscribing.

I can highly recommend ezlm, as used by all the perl.org mailing lists
(including the >5000 subscribers on dbi-announce).  It's very powerful
and simple. Supports digests and post-only subscriptions.  Easy
moderation for moderated lists etc etc. Canned message with info for
non-subscribers. Excellent bounce management etc etc.

> >   (Sasha, would it be easy to fix the last thing).
> > - Add better spam filters;  Matt, do you have any ideas for this?
> 
> Yesterday in this thread I mentioned Spam Bouncer
> .  It's a set of procmail recipes that are
> pretty powerful, easy to modify and are pretty effective.  I especially like
> the ability to automatically notify senders of false positives and provide
> them a password to resend the message and bypass the filtering system (which
> conceptually a spammer wouldn't do).

That would be handy, given that mysql lists current spam filter just
bounced a message from me due to the "just " in
"just sth->execute"!

Tim.

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Re: Signal to Noise Ratio...

[Sasha Pachev]

On Thursday 05 April 2001 20:38, Steve Werby wrote:
> "Sasha Pachev" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > First, we can somewhat expand the list - add the words "database", "sql",
> and
> > "query" to the sentry list.
> >
> > Second, if you forget one of those words, you will get a reply from the
> bot
> > that will say something like:
> >
> > Your message did not make it to the list because you forget to mention one
> of
> > the following: MySQL, SQL, database, query. If your message really has to
> do
> > something with MySQL, just reply to this without modifying the body at all
> > and your post will pass our spam filters.
> >
> > If there are no vehement objections to this, I will go ahead and implement
> > this part right away.
> 
> I think that will work pretty well.  Personally, I don't mind having to
> resend a message every few weeks when I forget to include a word from the
> sentry list.  I just hope more spammers don't start referring to this list
> as the "MySQL Kitchen List" or their posts will still get through.

If they do, we will disallow "kitchen" :-)

-- 
MySQL Development Team
   __  ___ ___   __ 
  /  |/  /_ __/ __/ __ \/ /   Sasha Pachev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 / /|_/ / // /\ \/ /_/ / /__  MySQL AB, http://www.mysql.com/
/_/  /_/\_, /___/\___\_\___/  Provo, Utah, USA
   <___/  

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Re: Signal to Noise Ratio...

[Sasha Pachev]

On Thursday 05 April 2001 20:15, Jonothan Farr wrote:
> > First, we can somewhat expand the list - add the words "database", "sql", 
and
> > "query" to the sentry list.
> 
> Congratulations "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"!!! You have been selected to 
receive a
> free spam-o-matic.

If we have a problem with such posts, we will fix up the rules to filter 
those out. The point is that for every filter there is a way to bypass it if 
you know how it works. But we care about is common case - if we get one spam 
a month that we do not catch, I think we can live with it.

-- 
MySQL Development Team
   __  ___ ___   __ 
  /  |/  /_ __/ __/ __ \/ /   Sasha Pachev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 / /|_/ / // /\ \/ /_/ / /__  MySQL AB, http://www.mysql.com/
/_/  /_/\_, /___/\___\_\___/  Provo, Utah, USA
   <___/  

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Re: Signal to Noise Ratio...

[Sasha Pachev]

> 
> > - Require the person to be either subscribed to the list or that the
> >   email should contain the word 'MySQL'.
> 
> I don't think this will be effective.  I just checked the last 10 messages I
> posted to the list.  6 had 'mysql' in the body and 4 didn't...and I was
> surprised that many did.

First, we can somewhat expand the list - add the words "database", "sql", and 
"query" to the sentry list.

Second, if you forget one of those words, you will get a reply from the bot 
that will say something like:

Your message did not make it to the list because you forget to mention one of 
the following: MySQL, SQL, database, query. If your message really has to do 
something with MySQL, just reply to this without modifying the body at all 
and your post will pass our spam filters.

If there are no vehement objections to this, I will go ahead and implement 
this part right away.

-- 
MySQL Development Team
   __  ___ ___   __ 
  /  |/  /_ __/ __/ __ \/ /   Sasha Pachev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 / /|_/ / // /\ \/ /_/ / /__  MySQL AB, http://www.mysql.com/
/_/  /_/\_, /___/\___\_\___/  Provo, Utah, USA
   <___/  

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Re: Signal to Noise Ratio...

[Steve Werby]

"Michael Widenius" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> This thing has been up a couple of times over the years. The problem
> is that requiring people to be subscribers to the mailing list before
> posting will only confuse the poor people that don't expect to get 100
> emails per day after subscribing.

In that case, you may want to consider implementing a MLM (mailing list
manager) that allows subscribers to disable mail delivery.  I know Mailman
and some others have that feature.  What MLM is MySQL using?  In conjunction
with that feature you could have an autoreply that gives non-subscribers who
attempt to post a canned message with info. on the lists and instructions on
subscribing.

> We need to come up with something better than the above. Here follows
> some suggestions:
>
> - Split the main (big) list into smaller, more specific lists.

I used to think that was a good idea on technical lists, but as more and
more less-technical people subcribe to lists like this I don't think it's
wise.  It seems that a lot of these people want a quick fix and don't want
to put in the time or energy reading through list archives (which in my
opinion is a bigger problem than spam on these lists) or posting to a
lower-traffic, less publicized alternate mailing list.

> - Require the person to be either subscribed to the list or that the
>   email should contain the word 'MySQL'.

I don't think this will be effective.  I just checked the last 10 messages I
posted to the list.  6 had 'mysql' in the body and 4 didn't...and I was
surprised that many did.

>   (Sasha, would it be easy to fix the last thing).
> - Add better spam filters;  Matt, do you have any ideas for this?

Yesterday in this thread I mentioned Spam Bouncer
.  It's a set of procmail recipes that are
pretty powerful, easy to modify and are pretty effective.  I especially like
the ability to automatically notify senders of false positives and provide
them a password to resend the message and bypass the filtering system (which
conceptually a spammer wouldn't do).

I'd be glad to help you find a solution.  Look at it this way, if you try
something and it doesn't work you can always go back to what you have in
place now.  BTW, I think your company has done a fine job with MySQL.  I've
been using it for a few years and recommending it to lots of people.

--
Steve Werby
President, Befriend Internet Services LLC
http://www.befriend.com/


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Signal to Noise Ratio...

[Michael Widenius]

Hi!

> "Eric" == Eric Fitzgerald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Eric> This is an open plea to the MySQL team.  The amount of spam and other noise
Eric> on the list has been growing more and more every day.  I would like to make
Eric> a couple basic plea's.  The first, is that you require a poster to the list
Eric> have an actual account on the list, that should help cut out some of the
Eric> general spam.  Second, perhaps setup some basic moderation, I'll help if
Eric> need be :)

Eric> I think the last thing we all need is more spam coming down our pipes, so if
Eric> anything can be done to help prevent this, it would make everyone's lives
Eric> easier...except of coarse the low life scum that get's a rise out of farming
Eric> a list for E-Mails or even sending spam to the list.

This thing has been up a couple of times over the years. The problem
is that requiring people to be subscribers to the mailing list before
posting will only confuse the poor people that don't expect to get 100
emails per day after subscribing.

We need to come up with something better than the above. Here follows
some suggestions:

- Split the main (big) list into smaller, more specific lists.
- Require the person to be either subscribed to the list or that the
  email should contain the word 'MySQL'.
  (Sasha, would it be easy to fix the last thing).
- Add better spam filters;  Matt, do you have any ideas for this?

Erik do you have any additional suggestions?

Regards.
Monty

PS: I did a quick scan of the [EMAIL PROTECTED] archive, but
didn't see that many spams;  Erik, what is your notion about this?

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Re: Signal to Noise Ratio...

[Eric Fitzgerald]

I actually wouldn't have a problem moderating the false positives and
approving them.  Coarse, this is all just theoretical untill we get some
kind of official word from the MySQL team (You guys listening there?)  :)


- Original Message -
From: "Steve Werby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Eric Fitzgerald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 1:29 PM
Subject: Re: Signal to Noise Ratio...


> "Eric Fitzgerald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I can understand the concern of longer delays in moderation.  My problem
> > with anti spam filters is simply because they are too much like
anti-virus
> > filters.  TOO many false positives.
>
> Since you were volunteering...why not volunteer to moderate the false
> positives and approve them if appropriate?  Seriously though, the procmail
> rules I mentioned have an optional facility that notifies senders of false
> positives and requires them to re-post the message with a supplied
password
> to bypass the filter the second time.  It's something to consider since
this
> is a problem with no perfect solution.
>
> --
> Steve Werby
> President, Befriend Internet Services LLC
> http://www.befriend.com/
>
>
>


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Re: Signal to Noise Ratio...

[Steve Werby]

"Eric Fitzgerald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I can understand the concern of longer delays in moderation.  My problem
> with anti spam filters is simply because they are too much like anti-virus
> filters.  TOO many false positives.

Since you were volunteering...why not volunteer to moderate the false
positives and approve them if appropriate?  Seriously though, the procmail
rules I mentioned have an optional facility that notifies senders of false
positives and requires them to re-post the message with a supplied password
to bypass the filter the second time.  It's something to consider since this
is a problem with no perfect solution.

--
Steve Werby
President, Befriend Internet Services LLC
http://www.befriend.com/


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Re: Signal to Noise Ratio...

[Eric Fitzgerald]

I can understand the concern of longer delays in moderation.  My problem
with anti spam filters is simply because they are too much like anti-virus
filters.  TOO many false positives.
- Original Message -
From: "Steve Werby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Eric Fitzgerald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 12:12 PM
Subject: Re: Signal to Noise Ratio...


> "Eric Fitzgerald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > The amount of spam and other noise
> > on the list has been growing more and more every day.
>
> Agreed.  Same thing's happening with my own email accounts.
>
> > Second, perhaps setup some basic moderation, I'll help if
> > need be :)
>
> I think most people asking questions on the list would rather have some
spam
> slip through than have a thread of a few rapid fire posts take hours in
the
> future because of moderation delays.  Maybe implementation of a procmail
> spam filter like the extensive set of procmail recipes put together by
> http://www.spambouncer.org/ will cut down on the spam.  Just my 2 cents.
>
> --
> Steve Werby
> President, Befriend Internet Services LLC
> http://www.befriend.com/
>
>
>


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Re: Signal to Noise Ratio...

[Steve Werby]

"Eric Fitzgerald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The amount of spam and other noise
> on the list has been growing more and more every day.

Agreed.  Same thing's happening with my own email accounts.

> Second, perhaps setup some basic moderation, I'll help if
> need be :)

I think most people asking questions on the list would rather have some spam
slip through than have a thread of a few rapid fire posts take hours in the
future because of moderation delays.  Maybe implementation of a procmail
spam filter like the extensive set of procmail recipes put together by
http://www.spambouncer.org/ will cut down on the spam.  Just my 2 cents.

--
Steve Werby
President, Befriend Internet Services LLC
http://www.befriend.com/


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Re: Signal to Noise Ratio...

[Aigars Grins]

> This is an open plea to the MySQL team.  The amount of spam and other
noise
> on the list has been growing more and more every day.  I would like to
make
> a couple basic plea's.  The first, is that you require a poster to the
list
> have an actual account on the list, that should help cut out some of the
> general spam.  Second, perhaps setup some basic moderation, I'll help if
> need be :)

Intelligent moderation must be performed by a physical person. No? This
means delays on mails which is something I can live without.

Another solution would be to create even more specialized lists.. (eg. how
to write SQL/database design, one for
compilation/installation/configuration). The downside of that is of course
that most people on this might want to listen all those anyway.. (Besides
the point of MySQL-'newbies' being uneccessery disoriented by a huge amount
of different lists).

Just my .02. (more spam?)

--
Aigars




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Signal to Noise Ratio...

[Eric Fitzgerald]

This is an open plea to the MySQL team.  The amount of spam and other noise
on the list has been growing more and more every day.  I would like to make
a couple basic plea's.  The first, is that you require a poster to the list
have an actual account on the list, that should help cut out some of the
general spam.  Second, perhaps setup some basic moderation, I'll help if
need be :)

I think the last thing we all need is more spam coming down our pipes, so if
anything can be done to help prevent this, it would make everyone's lives
easier...except of coarse the low life scum that get's a rise out of farming
a list for E-Mails or even sending spam to the list.


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