Re: [mythtv-users] manual scheduling - no upcoming recordings
On Fri, 4 Nov 2005 19:55:33 -0500, Isaac Richards wrote: On Friday 04 November 2005 06:43 pm, R. Geoffrey Newbury wrote: On Fri, 4 Nov 2005 17:01:42 -0500, Isaac Richards wrote: On Friday 04 November 2005 04:33 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Have you ever used _anything_ with a remote control before? I guarantee that there's not a Press the 'Guide' button to bring up the program guide message burned in to your TV from it being displayed all the time. Did you even bother to read the mythtv howto? It lists all the commands: http://www.mythtv.org/docs/mythtv-HOWTO-11.html Sorry Isaac but that page makes NO mention of the keys working in mythtv-setup... and it never occurred to me that the remote would work *during setup*. Silly of me...Some reflection would have lead me to the realization that the built-in lirc stuff would be available. But... I still haven't got my remote working properly (nothing to do with myth.. its a lirc_imon thing...) so I cannot use the remote at all. I am forced to use the keyboard. 'M'enu and 'I'nfo are pretty much global keybindings, just like the arrows and number keys. Not in front of me at the moment, but doesn't 'I' do something else in mythfrontendISTR noticing that 'I' *did not* give 'info'... The entire myth UI is meant to be useable with a remote, including the setup app. That's the entire point of the whole application. Isaac, Absolutely. It should be usable with a remote... but (you knew that was coming!) that means certain restrictions in layout and structure are needed...It's good but not where it should be. It does work. It could work better.. (Sounds like government!) I'm still fighting with my setup... so I have been running mythtv-setup a *number* of times. There are things which are silly, obscure, misplaced and illogical (and the user becomes all of the above! Especially misplaced hunched over the computer, at which point the WAF temperature becomes about -40 and that's F or C!). Rather than hash those out in an unstructured manner, maybe we should collectively turn our minds to how to structure a reasonable campaign to deal with these things. We need, I think, a series of open threads each dealing with a subject, and an instance of that subject, such as Menu Page Structures: Main Page, Menu Page Structures: Setup Page. I suggest this in order that we can attempt to separate screen usability (how the page works and what's on it) from program logic issues (what affects what) from 'upgrade ideas' (such as better help, different switches/entries, some form of 'oops' protection...how about a script (or button!) to backup/restore the program guide tables..) There is a real rat's nest involved in the trade-offs between the setup program and the frontend. To my way of thinking, there are parts of each which should be in the other. As a basic proposition, the setup program should do stuff which only needs to be done once in a while. It should be run, as root, and should take care of permissions and such from within that program. It should NOT however, ever destroy data without asking 3 times. It should not automatically do things which will destroy data either. (I'm thinking of the unexpected calls to DirectData.) (I'm at the office to re-run mythtv-setup and re-download my channel information... Funny that, running channel scan messes up the program data...(changed all the channel numbers ie. from 8 to 9, don't know why..) which *also* had the effect of neutering the recording setting: the program was still in the 'to-be-recorded' listing, but would never be recorded because the data was now tainted...) Another issue for work are the 'Help Items' which come up when you are on the field. Another is actually the HOW-TO...it uses different words in different places for the same thing:... client and server for frontend and backend... and for that matter sometimes BE or MBE... Another large area, which will require time but not deep effort is error messages or information messages from the program, which don't actually help... I'm presently getting a 'select timeout' error from the backend...'select' what? I have a pretty good idea what it means but no idea as to why it is happening. But the program 'knows' lots of stuff and could tell us if we make it. It always knows which piece of hardware it is trying to deal with: we should too. Since my hardware works (cat /dev/video0 etc... I was watching Kevin Costner last night) I'm trying to figure out why the backend cannot connect/select/tune the card, nor as it happens find the ringbuffer...no live TV either... Lots to do at both ends of this connection. I will help with the 'help' items, if you will accept my assistance. Which would you like me to start with? I think I need to re-read the HOW-TO to catch up on any missing permission issues at my end...and I will troll through the web how-to's too, two times... Geoff R. Geoffrey Newbury
Re: [mythtv-users] manual scheduling - no upcoming recordings
On Fri, 4 Nov 2005 21:00:00 -0500 (EST), [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Date: Fri, 04 Nov 05 18:32:16 -0500 From: R. Geoffrey Newbury [EMAIL PROTECTED] (b) I went into Schedule Recordings - Manual Schedule and wasted my time setting up 4 simultaneous recordings 5 minutes into the future, only to discover in Upcoming Recordings that it's claiming You haven't yet scheduled any recordings. WTF??? Yes. We are not alone... I'm sure. It did this to me a couple of times, just about midnight last night. That was in Manual Recording too. And ... Upcoming was empty. Hmm. Were you able to figure out any way of bringing back manual recording capability? I've probably got a full reinstall in my near future (probably on a different distro entirely), but I'd like to understand either how to recover from this, or what might have provoked the bug in the first place. (It sure sounds like both of us encountered this by reassigning /dev/videoN entries, though, which seems to indicate a bad bug lurking somewhere.) No I haven't. Rather than the manual route, I then set up a simultaneous recording job with the guide, while I tried to figure out why live TV can't find the ringbuffer... But then I found out that I'm not getting anything recorded... Seems the program can't select/talk to the card (PVR500)...The card works... I did a 'cat /dev/video0 ...' and ended up watching large chunks of Dances with Wolves in xine on alternate video inputs... (The pcHDTV card is back in a drawer for another while...) Geoff R. Geoffrey Newbury [EMAIL PROTECTED] Barrister and Solicitor Telephone: 905-271-9600 Mississauga,Ontario, Canada Facsimile: 905-271-1638 ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] manual scheduling - no upcoming recordings
(for example) that there's no way to DELETE a single card from I'm pretty sure that you can just Highlight the card and hit Menu (M). Then pick delete. ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] manual scheduling - no upcoming recordings
On Friday 04 November 2005 04:33 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 17:07:41 -0400 From: Greg Estabrooks [EMAIL PROTECTED] (for example) that there's no way to DELETE a single card from I'm pretty sure that you can just Highlight the card and hit Menu (M). Then pick delete. Such a pity, then that the UI gave me NO CLUE WHATSOEVER that it was possible to type letters when sitting on entries, or what those letters might do. Are there other commands besides M? Where are they documented? Why are they not documented RIGHT ON THAT VERY SCREEN? I mean, there's plenty o' real estate just sitting there blank... Are there other places where typing letters would work? Where? [Typing a ? while sitting on an entry did nothing. Surely I'm not expected to just type every possible character, with and without every possible modifier, to figure out if there are any other easter eggs in this particular screen. And then there are all the -other- screens...] Have you ever used _anything_ with a remote control before? I guarantee that there's not a Press the 'Guide' button to bring up the program guide message burned in to your TV from it being displayed all the time. Did you even bother to read the mythtv howto? It lists all the commands: http://www.mythtv.org/docs/mythtv-HOWTO-11.html Seriously, this is just getting laughable. Isaac ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] manual scheduling - no upcoming recordings
On 11/4/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 17:07:41 -0400 From: Greg Estabrooks [EMAIL PROTECTED] (for example) that there's no way to DELETE a single card from I'm pretty sure that you can just Highlight the card and hit Menu (M). Then pick delete. Such a pity, then that the UI gave me NO CLUE WHATSOEVER that it was possible to type letters when sitting on entries, or what those letters might do. Are there other commands besides M? Where are they documented? Why are they not documented RIGHT ON THAT VERY SCREEN? I mean, there's plenty o' real estate just sitting there blank... Are there other places where typing letters would work? Where? [Typing a ? while sitting on an entry did nothing. Surely I'm not expected to just type every possible character, with and without every possible modifier, to figure out if there are any other easter eggs in this particular screen. And then there are all the -other- screens...] *sigh* . o O ( Usability? ) ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users Have you looked at the HOWTO? http://mythtv.org/docs/mythtv-HOWTO-11.html#ss11.1 ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] manual scheduling - no upcoming recordings
On 11/4/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: big snip Maybe you should ask for your money back... :) ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] manual scheduling - no upcoming recordings
On 11/4/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 16:45:55 -0600 From: Josh Burks [EMAIL PROTECTED] On 11/4/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: big snip Maybe you should ask for your money back... :) Maybe I should ask for my -time- back. Pity I spent all this money on this pile o' hardware over here... Seriously: You're apparently making the same it was free, so you have no right to complain argument that a lot of people have made about various problems in F/OSS and elsewhere. That denigrates the real problems that real people are having, not to mention insulting all the time, sweat, and tears that real people have already spent in building the system so far, -and- likewise the effort that the users have spent on getting the results to work. Sorry, but yours is a bogus argument, and you should know it. I'm trying to make this a better system. One way to do this is to complain, because otherwise problems can lurk for a long time without getting fixed. Not only does it raise the chances that somebody with commit privs will actually be willing to check in fixes, it raises the chances that somebody -else- who's also pissed-off about the state of the world will go and spend the time hacking to fix it, now that they know they're not the only one, that a fix would improve the lives of -lots- of people, and that their fix will be accepted into the tree. Maybe you should take your complaints to the -dev list if you REALLY want them fixed. I haven't seen a single post from you over there yet. This is a users list. I like to read the posts to see if I can help with others problems, but wading through you novels about KnoppMyth's useablity and Mythtv in general is getting old fast. But by simply being snide -in public-, on the mailing list as opposed to just to me, you're evidently trying to interfere with an honest attempt to get things fixed. That makes you look foolish. Maybe you should get out of the way. You're probably right, so I'll shut up now and continue ignoring your posts. ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] manual scheduling - no upcoming recordings
On Fri, 4 Nov 2005 15:44:07 -0500 (EST), [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, this is new different. So after my little debacle with Capture Cards, and discovering (for example) that there's no way to DELETE a single card from the list without nuking ALL of them and starting over (geez, what happens if somebody moves a card to a different machine? guess they just deserve to lose), I ran mythtv-setup, told it to delete my capture cards, and set up the 4 in the machine on unique /dev/videoN settings. Then, after powering off the machine for a while and back on: (a) It still complains on boot about /dev/video4 not existing. (There used to be a 5th card. Not at the moment.) Who's caching this info? I could post the logs if anyone wants. (b) I went into Schedule Recordings - Manual Schedule and wasted my time setting up 4 simultaneous recordings 5 minutes into the future, only to discover in Upcoming Recordings that it's claiming You haven't yet scheduled any recordings. WTF??? (c) I can repeat (b) at will. Manual Schedule isn't actually doing anything any more. So something just broke in this KnoppMyth R5A22. I can't prove it was related to flushing my capture cards and starting over, but I sure have my suspicions. Has anyone seen this sort of behavior before? Yes. We are not alone... I'm sure. It did this to me a couple of times, just about midnight last night. That was in Manual Recording too. And ... Upcoming was empty. By messing around in the EPG I thought that I had actually scheduled a recording but although it was reported by the backend as being done, no recording actually existed.. I -think- that that was the /dev/videox entry problem...although it could have been trying to record using a phantom card... since at one point last night the system thought it had 5 tuners...(instead of a PVR500 and pcHDTV only). A speaking of usability factors, including the 'name the card' patch discussed here, why cannot we explicitly set the tuner we want to use, or at least see which tuner will be used... I'm still not sure which order is actually used... 0 to 3,4,5 or 5 to 2,1,0... and which *is* zero? Geoff R. Geoffrey Newbury [EMAIL PROTECTED] Barrister and Solicitor Telephone: 905-271-9600 Mississauga,Ontario, Canada Facsimile: 905-271-1638 ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] manual scheduling - no upcoming recordings
Are there other commands besides M? Where are they documented? Various Howtos, keys.txt and god knows where else. Why are they not documented RIGHT ON THAT VERY SCREEN? I mean, there's plenty o' real estate just sitting there blank... Are there other places where typing letters would work? Where? You will have to try and find out. Menu works in most select lists where it's relevant. [Typing a ? while sitting on an entry did nothing. Surely I'm not expected to just type every possible character, with and without every You are imho expecting too much from a non commerical, non funded , we do it cause we enjoy it project done by people who donate their spare time too. There is no QA team, there are no professional UI designers, there is no focus groups to work out the best UI layout. It is expected that users will have to read documentation. If you feel strongly otherwise then seriously, start taking your notes and working on what you feel improves the users experience. Noone is going to reject a patch that improves the usability of the application. As long as the code isn't horribly ugly, and follows the same style as the rest and fills a need then it will be considered. http://svn.mythtv.org/trac is where you can enter tickets on bugs (and how to reproduce them) along with the patches. Or you can post them to the mythtv-dev mailing list ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] manual scheduling - no upcoming recordings
On Fri, 4 Nov 2005 17:01:42 -0500, Isaac Richards wrote: On Friday 04 November 2005 04:33 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Have you ever used _anything_ with a remote control before? I guarantee that there's not a Press the 'Guide' button to bring up the program guide message burned in to your TV from it being displayed all the time. Did you even bother to read the mythtv howto? It lists all the commands: http://www.mythtv.org/docs/mythtv-HOWTO-11.html Sorry Isaac but that page makes NO mention of the keys working in mythtv-setup... and it never occurred to me that the remote would work *during setup*. Silly of me...Some reflection would have lead me to the realization that the built-in lirc stuff would be available. But... I still haven't got my remote working properly (nothing to do with myth.. its a lirc_imon thing...) so I cannot use the remote at all. I am forced to use the keyboard. Geoff R. Geoffrey Newbury [EMAIL PROTECTED] Barrister and Solicitor Telephone: 905-271-9600 Mississauga,Ontario, Canada Facsimile: 905-271-1638 ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] manual scheduling - no upcoming recordings
message burned in to your TV from it being displayed all the time. I'm not -using- a remote control right now; I'm using a keyboard, because I'm trying to get the box set up. Because mythtv-setup is Agreed. Its going to be rare that remote will be used with mythtv-setup, but the UI is general kept consistant with the rest of the APP/Plugins, including the M(Menu) (I)Info and (D)Delete , etc buttons. that everyone's using a remote. They might not even have installed LIRC yet. Burying functionality is a bad idea. The problem is that while we can add more visual clues to the screen for the more common functions there just isn't enough for everything. Especailly since every user uses a different resolution and overscan settings. I'm sure a Help popup showing the available controls would be helpful however. only brings up TWO choices? Delete or Edit. Are you telling me that it was -so- important to separate these choices at all, instead Because those are the only options added to that menu. When more relevant options are added they go into the menu. the -only- point of even -having- M in the interface (as opposed to Return, which calls up the menu even if you've never heard of M) is to enable one single option---Delete, since the only option is Edit, It's called consistancy. Menu is used in many places. And before you jump up with a where are they? I can't see them response you already know that you at this stage need to learn by tryig it, reading howtos and keys.txt. [And you can't argue that M is usable everywhere. I just tried it in a very similar-looking list, namely the Input connections screen, It's would not make sense to have a Menu for a single options I'm sure you would agree. If a additional option became available a Menu would be added. Currently, MythTV's configuration system looks like the Bad Example section of any book on user interface design. Class, let's review: Then get to it, or try to encourage those who have the ability to do the work. But to do that would require a less YOU SUCK, EVERYTHING YOU DO SUCKS position. And while I understand that may not be your intent it is how your posts come off. [I deleted the fifth card---why is ivtv still bitching about it?] Well the fact that you havn't posted a couple of lines showing that error makes it hard for someone to help you. If it's remove from myth and you are seeing an error it is more likely and initscript/Knoppmyth related issue. Post the actual error and maybe someone can help with it. I must admit, I'm baffled by some of the apparent hostility here towards improving the user interface. Sure, call me abrasive, call me That is exactly why. You are approaching a group of generally friendly, helpful volunteers who give a LOT of their time to make the app, and help out users even when the issue isn't actually myth caused with an agressive, arrogant and demanding attitude when you have no legitimate right to be so. To give up in disgust? To assume they must be stupid because it takes them ages to get anything working? Don't be an ass. Noone is rejecting anything that would help the users nor intentionally making their lives harder. But so far other than to stand on a pedistal and declare the UI not worthy of you. total. Most of the really bad ones are probably 10-line or 1-line fixes. A lot of them are fixable simply by adding a single English sentence to something. If it's so trivial then get to coding. And don't try and pull the I need 6 months to get familiar with the code base crap. It's not that complicated for just simple UI changes. the problems, you're not going to -get- them by yelling at them and dismissing their problems. Why the hell should I or anyone else waste And if you expect devs to turn around and change code or implement new features then approach them with less of a I'm better than you. God , can't you people SEE the problems way of talking. I'm sure it's not what you mean to portray but it is how you come off. ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] manual scheduling - no upcoming recordings
On Friday 04 November 2005 06:43 pm, R. Geoffrey Newbury wrote: On Fri, 4 Nov 2005 17:01:42 -0500, Isaac Richards wrote: On Friday 04 November 2005 04:33 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Have you ever used _anything_ with a remote control before? I guarantee that there's not a Press the 'Guide' button to bring up the program guide message burned in to your TV from it being displayed all the time. Did you even bother to read the mythtv howto? It lists all the commands: http://www.mythtv.org/docs/mythtv-HOWTO-11.html Sorry Isaac but that page makes NO mention of the keys working in mythtv-setup... and it never occurred to me that the remote would work *during setup*. Silly of me...Some reflection would have lead me to the realization that the built-in lirc stuff would be available. But... I still haven't got my remote working properly (nothing to do with myth.. its a lirc_imon thing...) so I cannot use the remote at all. I am forced to use the keyboard. 'M'enu and 'I'nfo are pretty much global keybindings, just like the arrows and number keys. The entire myth UI is meant to be useable with a remote, including the setup app. That's the entire point of the whole application. Isaac ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] manual scheduling - no upcoming recordings
On Friday 04 November 2005 06:14 pm, Josh Burks wrote: On 11/4/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 16:45:55 -0600 From: Josh Burks [EMAIL PROTECTED] On 11/4/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: big snip Maybe you should ask for your money back... :) Maybe I should ask for my -time- back. Pity I spent all this money on this pile o' hardware over here... Seriously: You're apparently making the same it was free, so you have no right to complain argument that a lot of people have made about various problems in F/OSS and elsewhere. That denigrates the real problems that real people are having, not to mention insulting all the time, sweat, and tears that real people have already spent in building the system so far, -and- likewise the effort that the users have spent on getting the results to work. Sorry, but yours is a bogus argument, and you should know it. I'm trying to make this a better system. One way to do this is to complain, because otherwise problems can lurk for a long time without getting fixed. Not only does it raise the chances that somebody with commit privs will actually be willing to check in fixes, it raises the chances that somebody -else- who's also pissed-off about the state of the world will go and spend the time hacking to fix it, now that they know they're not the only one, that a fix would improve the lives of -lots- of people, and that their fix will be accepted into the tree. Maybe you should take your complaints to the -dev list if you REALLY want them fixed. I haven't seen a single post from you over there yet. This is a users list. I like to read the posts to see if I can help with others problems, but wading through you novels about KnoppMyth's useablity and Mythtv in general is getting old fast. He should only post on the dev list if he wants starts contributing in a useful manner. The users list is for random bitching, the dev list is for people who want to help. Isaac ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] manual scheduling - no upcoming recordings
(or that I should break it up into bite-sized pieces and check it directly into the bugtracker, or whatever). Bugs should go to the trac along with clear instructions on how to replicate. And of course it might help to check and see if that issue has already been reported. UI enhancement or usability change requests could be sent in a list type similar to : 1. Menu page X might be more intuitive if Y Widget was in Z corner with W colour 2. The wording of Blah isn't very clear, how about blah2blah2blah2. etc etc And of course be clear and to the point. Noone wants to wade through screenfuls of chatter to get to the important points. Given the amount of heat a simple list of bugs generated, I'm especially reluctant to drag it over there, unless the devos I think the real problem you've run into is your presentation style which while unintentional(I assume) caused a defensive reaction. Suggestions and respectful critisim(spl?) are always welcome. In fact I've been considering an overhaul of the settings pages and layout so I for one would like to see a clear and to the point list of you suggestions. But I can tell you right now that you will get no help from me if it's just a list of things you don't like demanding to know why each is done the way it is. ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] manual scheduling - no upcoming recordings
Greg Estabrooks wrote: A Clear Mythbug should be entered into trac. Preferrably a bug that exists in latest SVN. Noone wants to waste time trying to track down a described bug to find out that it was infact fixed months ago :) Can I venture something here? Advice, strongly given here, is to only use 18.1, i.e. a released version. Those who have not, like Knoppmyth, and the PLF rpms, have been taken to task for it. How, then, can users report bugs? There is NO way for them to know what's in the latest SVN.Wouldn't a developer be aware of, or be easily able to check, whether a reported bug had yet been fixed since the last release? I know you said 'preferably' but I'm afraid this will seldom be the case for the great majority of users. Or am I wrong, and is everyone running late SVN builds? ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] manual scheduling - no upcoming recordings
On Friday 04 November 2005 09:44 pm, ffrr wrote: Greg Estabrooks wrote: A Clear Mythbug should be entered into trac. Preferrably a bug that exists in latest SVN. Noone wants to waste time trying to track down a described bug to find out that it was infact fixed months ago :) Can I venture something here? Advice, strongly given here, is to only use 18.1, i.e. a released version. Those who have not, like Knoppmyth, and the PLF rpms, have been taken to task for it. How, then, can users report bugs? There is NO way for them to know what's in the latest SVN.Wouldn't a developer be aware of, or be easily able to check, whether a reported bug had yet been fixed since the last release? Nono - *Users* can use SVN. That's encouraged, as long as they know what they're getting in to. It's when people release packages that don't even acknowledge the fact that it's a SVN checkout that I get really annoyed. Then a user is using SVN without even knowing it, and that's a really bad thing. I know you said 'preferably' but I'm afraid this will seldom be the case for the great majority of users. Or am I wrong, and is everyone running late SVN builds? In my experience, the people that report the best bugs are using current SVN builds. It's not that big of a deal if someone repots something that's already been fixed, it just saves us a lot of time if the reporter checks to see if it's been fixed first. Isaac ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] manual scheduling - no upcoming recordings
On Friday 04 November 2005 09:24 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 20:04:50 -0400 From: Greg Estabrooks [EMAIL PROTECTED] Currently, MythTV's configuration system looks like the Bad Example section of any book on user interface design. Class, let's review: Then get to it, or try to encourage those who have the ability to do the work. But to do that would require a less YOU SUCK, EVERYTHING YOU DO SUCKS position. And while I understand that may not be your intent it is how your posts come off. It's certainly not my intent, and I appreciate your comments and those of some private posters who are trying to set me right on this score. But consider how this started: I got burned -really- badly (days of lost work) because of a bad UI. So I posted the reasons it was a problem. And then I posted a list of -other- UI problems that I'd written a week earlier, before I even knew I was about to be victimized by -more- bad UI :) You got 'burned' because you didn't even _look_ at the capture card list after setting up any of your cards. All the device paths that have been setup are on that list. They're also in the input connections list. You didn't notice, is all. Now consider the reaction: The -public- reaction was predominantly negative, mostly consisting of thinly veiled you're an idiot sorts of responses, and often eliding the most serious of the bugs and instead attacking the trivial ones. (E.g., no one yet has dared to argue that the UI -shouldn't- be checking for duplicate devnames in the Capture Cards menu, presumably because it's an indefensible position.) Ok, I'll dare. In some cases (if you wanted to setup the analog + hd parts of a hdX000, which doesn't quite work right yet), duplicate paths could be right. I see no reason to disallow this. The -private- reaction was overwhelmingly positive, and extremely disturbing. I'm currently sitting on messages from at least half a dozen people who have -all- said in their messages that they are AFRAID TO SPEAK UP because they don't want the sort of public vilification that I've just endured. Either they don't want to deal with being the victims of a flamefest, or they're afraid of not being listened to when they want help later; their reasons vary, but they're all depressing. And I've gotten confirmation from a couple dozen people that you're off your rocker. Goes both ways. Sure, there are useability problems. Your attitude is getting in the way of me responding to them, or even caring about what you're bringing up. If you want to fix them, learn how to act on a public mailing list. Learn how to reply to emails properly - your quoting is horrendous. Learn how to state a problem _succinctly_. Do that, and everybody'll get along just fine. Isaac ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] manual scheduling - no upcoming recordings
On Friday 04 November 2005 10:21 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 22:06:32 -0500 From: Isaac Richards [EMAIL PROTECTED] You got 'burned' because you didn't even _look_ at the capture card list after setting up any of your cards. All the device paths that have been setup are on that list. They're also in the input connections list. You didn't notice, is all. I -did- look. I failed to notice what was going on, especially since there are lots of 0's that are correct---just not those /dev/video0's. There's nothing on that page besides the pathnames + device types. Slightly difficult to miss. As I've said before, you're too close to realize that there's a whole lot of information whizzing by in this interface, and that -you-, as an expert, know exactly where to direct your attention to avoid problems. On the other hand, I, as nonexpert, did not. Then why are you still arguing, if you think my opinion's not valid? Ok, I'll dare. In some cases (if you wanted to setup the analog + hd parts of a hdX000, which doesn't quite work right yet), duplicate paths could be right. I see no reason to disallow this. Okay, then do you see no reason to have it put up a big fat warning saying, You're probably doing the wrong thing! Are you sure? That was my original suggestion, if you'll recall. That -one- check would have saved me a week of work, and (as it turns out) the list several 10's of K of messages talking about the whole thing. I don't recall your original suggestion. It was buried in a 10kb email that could have been stated in 2 sentences. I stopped reading after the first couple pages. So far, though, you say that (in some future situation which doesn't even work yet) this should be allowed. Meanwhile, people right now have been screwed by the current situation. Seems to me that you should make the common mistake difficult, at the risk of making the unlikely future action require one additional keystroke. This is the very first time I've ever heard of someone assigning multiple capture cards in the setup program to the same physical device. The common error at that stage of setup is assigning the wrong type of card. Lots of people say their ivtv card is using the bttv drivers. And I've gotten confirmation from a couple dozen people that you're off your rocker. Goes both ways. Sure does. Let's trade more numbers. It's fun. Sure, there are useability problems. It's good to hear some public acknowledgment of that. Your attitude is getting in the way of me responding to them, or even caring about what you're bringing up. If you want to fix them, learn how to act on a public mailing list. Fine. Don't publicly insult people if you want to appear reasonable. Yet every single piece of mail you've sent me so far as been insulting. I believe you started off this thread by this: How could this happen? Because mythtv-setup is the absolute -mother- of all usability screwups. and you continued in that vein. Considering that I *wrote* much of mythtv-setup, do you think that that's any way to make me think you're _not_ just your standard slashdot troll? Learn how to reply to emails properly - your quoting is horrendous. Please explain. That's funny. Look at your emails in the pipermail archives. Can you tell who wrote what? It's rather difficult. Hell, just look at the completely random amount of indentation you've put in this reply. You reset the subject line every email, too. Learn how to state a problem _succinctly_. Do that, and everybody'll get along just fine. The succint statements got flamey responses. The 'flamey' statements got 'flamey' responses. The long ones didn't get any, because I, at least, didn't bother to read them. Isaac ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] manual scheduling - no upcoming recordings
That's a pity. The long ones had all the technical content. Ok, I just have to ask. Do you happen to be a Professor of some sort? ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] manual scheduling - no upcoming recordings
[SNI] Wow, I've been reading this whole thing. I don't see a whole lot of technical info, and I actually did read every word in every reply (I use gmail, it's very nice at chopping everything up in easy to read chunks). If there is technical data that needs to be addressed (the gui problems I presume are more than just the use of M in certain areas?) it looks like trac is the way to go about it. Your 2 points are both valid from the different point of views here. You are probably not going to convince one another of your opposing view, so feel free to move on and begin addressing the technical issues via trac, it seems much more forward-moving than this conversation has become :) FWIW, the dev's of this project are VERY helpful and I have seen improvements based on feedback from the users that give it (the right way of course ;) ). It takes 2 things to make a good project IMHO, a wide user base that provides quality feedback and dev's who know what they are working on AND are capable of listening to the users feedback; and Myth has both of them. Chad ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
Re: [mythtv-users] manual scheduling - no upcoming recordings
Enough with the hostility, man. Everyone here would be pleased if you got your system up and running, Everyone here would probably be equally pleased if you just threw in the towel and bought Sage or Beyond. Most of of all, everyone here would be especially pleased if you quit complaining and attacking the developers, and expended that same energy into improving the UI instead of just bitching about it. You've moaned a few times in a few threads, for example, that the FE menus are confusing. They're all xml files. You can change them however you want. This does not require months of studying code. MythTV is not a commercial product, and does not depend on ease of use or QA. If you wish to help, there are plenty of ways to do so. Besides Myth UI issues, you have repeatedly complained about vi-emacs 'religious wars', 'flamefests' and other nonsense that really are not part of this list or of this community. In fact, you are responsible for the only 'religious war' I've ever seen on this list. Most people involved in Myth realize that it is a product in development, appreciate that, and are willing to lend their expertise to help everyone involved. Most people are also able to recognize and acknowledge when they have passed on invalid or out of date information, or stepped over the line in particular instances. Most are willing to instuct when they are able, and to accept instruction when they need it. Most people involved in Myth are also able to show a modicum of respect for the project, and realize that insulting volunteer developers is not very helpful to anyone. In fact, a user list for a FOSS application that is as supportive, as open, as helpful, and as active as this list -- that is a very rare thing indeed. Instead you have been posting disjointed laundry lists of personal complaints, some of which are valid and some of which have nothing to do with MythTV. Further, you have been harassing and belittling people who have put enourmouos effort and time into making this software what it is. You continue to act and post as if the Myth develpers and community owe you something because you have decided to pursue it. This is not the case. If you need help setting up your video card, plenty of people here can help. If you're having other problems that you can succinctly and specificly define, plenty of people can help you. No one here is asking for your blessing, and at the same time, no one here will give you deference based on a claim of deep *nix familiarity. What you are missing is a simple matter of respect -- respect for the fact that the code is in develpoment, respect for the fact that Isaac et al have worked hard to make Myth what it is, respect for the fact that many people have managed to work out, and offer help on the problems that you find insurmountable, and respect for simple human discourse. I, for one, will welcome the day when some of your suggestions on UI improvement become a part of the stable code base. Until that happens, I've heard enough from you about how 'awful' the UI is. Can it be improved? Sure. Is it awful? Absolutely not. I got it running. Lots of other people have too. I have wasted far too much time responding to you, so this will be my last. At least until you learn how to describe problems that are specific and fixable. And until you learn to show some respect. Good luck. ___ mythtv-users mailing list mythtv-users@mythtv.org http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
