Al Jazeera Un-Akamized
I don't know if I'm more surprised Akamai took on Al Jazeera as a customer, or that Akamai dropped Al Jazeera as a customer. But it does show the stress the Internet brings to international communications, that you don't see applied to the postal service or international telephone or satellite service. http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/04/technology/04WEB.html New York Times April 4 2003 Akamai Cancels a Contract for Arabic Network's Site By WARREN ST. JOHN In a move sure to complicate the efforts of Al Jazeera, the Arabic news network, to get its English-language Web site running, Akamai Technologies abruptly canceled a contract on Wednesday to provide Web services for the site. Employees at Al Jazeera headquarters in Doha, Qatar, said they were frustrated by the decision, though not entirely surprised. It has nothing to do with technical issues, said Joanne Tucker, the managing editor of the English-language site. It's nonstop political pressure on these companies not to deal with us. Akamai, based in Cambridge, Mass., would not comment on the reason for the cancellation. But Jeff Young, a company spokesman, issued a statement confirming that Akamai would no longer do business with Al Jazeera.
The Cidr Report
This report has been generated at Fri Apr 4 21:45:29 2003 AEST.
The report analyses the BGP Routing Table of an AS4637 (Reach) router
and generates a report on aggregation potential within the table.
Check http://www.cidr-report.org/as4637 for a current version of this report.
Recent Table History
Date PrefixesCIDR Agg
29-03-03121022 86344
30-03-03121098 86444
30-03-03121192 86322
31-03-0312 86222
01-04-03121043 86425
02-04-03121298 86692
03-04-03121290 86674
04-04-03121205 86508
AS Summary
14872 Number of ASes in routing system
5874 Number of ASes announcing only one prefix
1557 Largest number of prefixes announced by an AS
AS701 : ALTERNET-AS UUNET Technologies, Inc.
73080832 Largest address span announced by an AS (/32s)
AS568 : SUMNET-AS DISO-UNRRA
Aggregation Summary
The algorithm used in this report proposes aggregation only
when there is a precise match using the AS path, so as
to preserve traffic transit policies. Aggregation is also
proposed across non-advertised address space ('holes').
--- 04Apr03 ---
ASnumNetsNow NetsAggr NetGain % Gain Description
Table 121023864973452628.5% All ASes
AS4151 612 75 53787.7% USDA-1 USDA
AS18566 516 12 50497.7% COVAD Covad Communications
AS701 1557 1113 44428.5% ALTERNET-AS UUNET
Technologies, Inc.
AS7843 621 189 43269.6% ADELPHIA-AS Adelphia Corp.
AS3908 956 529 42744.7% SUPERNETASBLK SuperNet, Inc.
AS7018 1349 958 39129.0% ATT-INTERNET4 ATT WorldNet
Services
AS4323 565 181 38468.0% TW-COMM Time Warner
Communications, Inc.
AS7132 727 409 31843.7% SBIS-AS SBC Internet Services
- Southwest
AS1221 1108 811 29726.8% ASN-TELSTRA Telstra Pty Ltd
AS1239 960 679 28129.3% SPRINTLINK Sprint
AS22927 295 14 28195.3% AR-TEAR2-LACNIC TELEFONICA DE
ARGENTINA
AS6198 460 185 27559.8% BATI-MIA BellSouth Network
Solutions, Inc
AS6197 475 202 27357.5% BATI-ATL BellSouth Network
Solutions, Inc
AS4355 380 110 27071.1% ERMS-EARTHLNK EARTHLINK, INC
AS705459 203 25655.8% ALTERNET-AS UUNET
Technologies, Inc.
AS4814 269 15 25494.4% CHINANET-BEIJING-AP China
Telecom (Group)
AS2386 499 277 22244.5% INS-AS ATT Data
Communications Services
AS17676 235 28 20788.1% GIGAINFRA XTAGE CORPORATION
AS27364 266 65 20175.6% ACS-INTERNET Armstrong Cable
Services
AS11305 340 146 19457.1% INTERLAND-NET1 Interland
Incorporated
AS22773 2028 19496.0% CCINET-2 Cox Communications
Inc. Atlanta
AS209523 337 18635.6% ASN-QWEST Qwest
AS690502 318 18436.7% MERIT-AS-27 Merit Network Inc.
AS22291 240 60 18075.0% CHARTER-LA Charter
Communications
AS3561 515 338 17734.4% CWUSA Cable Wireless USA
AS2048 258 87 17166.3% LANET-1 State of Louisiana
AS6347 368 201 16745.4% DIAMOND SAVVIS Communications
Corporation
AS1 639 483 15624.4% GNTY-1 Genuity
AS6327 190 34 15682.1% SHAWFIBER Shaw Fiberlink
Limited
AS6140 295 152 14348.5% IMPSAT-USA ImpSat
Total 16381 8219 816249.8% Top 30 total
Please see http://www.cidr-report.org for the full report
Copies of this report are mailed to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
New IANA IPv4 allocations and bogon updates
[ Apologies to those who have received this post in other fora. ] The numerous Team Cymru bogon projects have been updated to reflect the following IANA allocation on April 04, 2003: 201/8 Apr 03 LACNIC (whois.lacnic.net) IANA allocations change over time, so please check regularly to ensure you have the latest filters if you are not using the bogon BGP feed(s). We do announce updates to the bogon projects to the FIRST community, as well as on lists such as NANOG, isp-routing, isp-security, isp-bgp, cisco-nsp, and bogon-announce. We can not stress this point strongly enough - these allocations change. If you do not adjust your filters, you will be unable to access perhaps large portions of the Internet. Worse yet, you may end up blocking access for people who transit through you. Please do not blindly apply any filters or blocks to your network without carefully considering the ramifications of doing so. As a point of reference, the master Bogon Reference Page can be found here: http://www.cymru.com/Bogons/index.html A quick summary of the documents and projects that have been updated include the following: HTTP The Bogon List The Text Bogon List, Unaggregated The Text Bogon List, Aggregated Secure BIND Template Secure IOS Template (Cisco) Secure BGP Template (Cisco) Secure JUNOS Template (Juniper) Secure JUNOS BGP Template (Juniper) Ingress Prefix Filter Templates, Loose and Strict (Cisco) Ingress Prefix Filter Template, Loose and Strict (Juniper) BGP Bogon route-server * RADb fltr-unallocated fltr-martian fltr-bogons DNS Bogon (bogons.cymru.com) zone Monitoring Bogon prefix monitoring * All of the bogon peers have received the appropriate BGP prefix updates. Please feel free to contact Team Cymru with any comments, questions, or concerns. Thanks! Steve, for Team Cymru. [http://www.cymru.com/About/teamcymru.html] -- Stephen Gill [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Seeking Advice: L2TPv3 vs. Martini Draft MPLS
All, I'm currently comparing these two technologies in an effort to offer a Layer 2 VPN service on our backbone. Our network is currently not MPLS enabled. Below is what I perceive as the pros and cons of each technology. If anyone has thoughts on or experience with either one of these protocols I'd like to hear your opinion. Thanks Mike Martini VPN Pro Supports MPLS TE for each VPN, making it more PVCish Enabling MPLS would open up the MPLS tool box for other services like L3 VPNs and TE Con --- Enabling MPLS is a huge change Changing the forwarding paradigm in the network exposes us to new and interesting bugs and stability issues L2TPv3 VPN Pro --- Doesn't require MPLS/Much smaller change Con Although standard, only supported by Cisco currently (I think) Requires special tunneling card in GSR routers.
Datacenter electric/genset THANKS!
Title: Message I wanted to throw out a big THANK YOU to everyone that has responded. You have surfaced some issues which we would never have considered and will undoubtedly help us to avoid some big mistakes. Thanks again! Dan Lockwood Microsoft Certified Professional CompTIA Network+ Certified Cisco Certified Network Associate
Re: Looking for advice on datacenter electrical/generator
Speaking on Deep Background, the Press Secretary whispered: He also is strongly opposed to us purchasing a natural gas generator which seemed like a shoe-in for us. I know of several cases where the San Jose fire marshall turned off natural gas as a precaution. You may wish to discuss with your local fire marshall under what conditions they will turn off the gas. Some places require auto-shutoff valves for NG as an earthquake precaution. Natural gas is a big plus in many ways; one undervalued by both customers and generator sales folks.. But all that ONLY in non-tilting/shaking enviroments. If 'earthquake' does not mean something that happens out in THEIR state.. to you; then don't consider it. -- A host is a host from coast to [EMAIL PROTECTED] no one will talk to a host that's close[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead20915-1433
RE: Seeking Advice: L2TPv3 vs. Martini Draft MPLS
Thanks for your advice David. Your point is very well received. One of the design requirements for our VPN solution will be the ability to allow customers to use non-IP protocols. I don't think RFC2547bis will work for this. However if we do go the MPLS route then RFC2547bis will be available as a product as well as Layer 2 VPNs. That's definitely a benefit. -Original Message- From: David Bigge [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 10:56 AM To: Mike Bernico; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Seeking Advice: L2TPv3 vs. Martini Draft MPLS Mike, An unsupported standard might as well not be a standard. I would lean towards the most openly supported standard- MPLS. Along with not letting one vendor bend you over the barrel, this openess also flushes out any problems for a more stable long-term network. You don't talk about 2547bis VPNs. Are you considering that also? We use a competitor of Cisco's equipment so I am biased. My 2 cent. David - Original Message - From: Mike Bernico [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 10:13 AM Subject: Seeking Advice: L2TPv3 vs. Martini Draft MPLS All, I'm currently comparing these two technologies in an effort to offer a Layer 2 VPN service on our backbone. Our network is currently not MPLS enabled. Below is what I perceive as the pros and cons of each technology. If anyone has thoughts on or experience with either one of these protocols I'd like to hear your opinion. Thanks Mike Martini VPN Pro Supports MPLS TE for each VPN, making it more PVCish Enabling MPLS would open up the MPLS tool box for other services like L3 VPNs and TE Con --- Enabling MPLS is a huge change Changing the forwarding paradigm in the network exposes us to new and interesting bugs and stability issues L2TPv3 VPN Pro --- Doesn't require MPLS/Much smaller change Con Although standard, only supported by Cisco currently (I think) Requires special tunneling card in GSR routers.
Anyone lit with Verizon in PHL
G'd afternoon, Can anyone with ability to do an emergency turnup of a DS1 in Philadelphia get in touch with me off-list? Thanks, Alex
Re: Seeking Advice: L2TPv3 vs. Martini Draft MPLS
I'm currently comparing these two technologies in an effort to offer a Layer 2 VPN service on our backbone. Our network is currently not MPLS enabled. Below is what I perceive as the pros and cons of each technology. If anyone has thoughts on or experience with either one of these protocols I'd like to hear your opinion. Historically, because technology has to be managed, on a level or another, by humans, we have eventually arrived at technology that is easy, understandable and simple enough not to need network wizards at every activation. Because of this, I´d say that L2TPv3 will eventually prevail over MPLS, however the market share of MPLS might increase in the immediate future the tide towards IP-only cores has already turned and it´ll take 6 to 12 months for the large marketing machines to change to hyping L2TPv3 instead of MPLS as the latest buzzword. Pete
RE: An A record is an MX record and is a missing MX....
I greatly appreciate to all who responded to this post (on and off list), and those who provided reference RFC's. Thanks, Gerardo A. Gregory
Datacenter electrical/genset
Title: Message To throw some water on the flames that I have been receiving, I will be posting a summary of everyone's good information this weekend when I get time. It is my intention to make that information available to the community. Calling me names is childish and unnecessary. Again, thanks to those that took the time to participate. Dan Lockwood Microsoft Certified Professional CompTIA Network+ Certified Cisco Certified Network Associate
Re: Datacenter electrical/genset
One point that I would like to make is to carefully look at your requirements. Your web site (based on your email address) indicates a county office of education. Do you really need to run off generator for several days? An extended battery UPS (like six hours or so) may be a feasible alternative and is probably less than one half the price of a generator and has the added benefit of low maintenance. In my area if PGE can't restore power in six hours or so then power loss may be the least of my worries. Dan Lockwood wrote: To throw some water on the flames that I have been receiving, I will be posting a summary of everyone's good information this weekend when I get time. It is my intention to make that information available to the community. Calling me names is childish and unnecessary. Again, thanks to those that took the time to participate.Dan LockwoodMicrosoft Certified ProfessionalCompTIA Network+ CertifiedCisco Certified Network Associate
RE: Datacenter electrical/genset
Title: Message I think maybe the reason you are being flamed is because generally people put in charge with the design/roll out of a data center environment should already know something about the logistics of such a project. Whether it is power, network, or pretty much any aspect of it for that matter. Also it can be fairly hard to determine the power requirements of a location without specific information, and the lack of said information probably frustrated people. Just a little editorial on why you may be getting flamed. -Drew -Original Message- From: Dan Lockwood [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 2:17 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Datacenter electrical/genset To throw some water on the flames that I have been receiving, I will be posting a summary of everyone's good information this weekend when I get time. It is my intention to make that information available to the community. Calling me names is childish and unnecessary. Again, thanks to those that took the time to participate. Dan Lockwood Microsoft Certified Professional CompTIA Network+ Certified Cisco Certified Network Associate
Re: An A record is an MX record and is a missing MX....
On Thu, Apr 03, 2003 at 05:25:35PM -0500, Richard Irving wrote: It isn't exactly completely RFC compliant, but, it is only a -=Request=-, eh ? It is in fact required that an MTA fall back to the A record for a domain if an MX record does not exist. See RFC 2821, Section 5, Address Resolution and Mail Handling. Obviously some admins I have encountered are starting to host mailservers for sub-domains and domains without MX entries on their DNS zone records. Relying on the A record alone. Lemmings make a mad dash towards a cliff, every so often, en masse This is a fallacy perpetrated by Disney. http://www.snopes.com/disney/films/lemmings.htm --Adam
201/8 Allocated by IANA to LACNIC
Hi Folks, This is a heads up to let you know that the IANA has alloacted the following range of IPv4 addresses to LACNIC. 201.0.0.0/8 A notation of the allocation has been made at http://www.iana.org/assignments/ipv4-address-space. You may wish to adjust your filters accordingly. -- Best regards, John mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Datacenter electrical/genset
Title: Message In all fairness, civil servants often get stuck with jobs that fall outside their realm of expertise, but need to get done none the less. Also remember that the budget of a public school is a little different from yours, and does not have the in-house resources of a telecom focused business. At least he was smart enough to know where to go for some help. He didn't ask anyone to design his power setup, or his cages. He simply asked for some insight to make sure the way his electrical engineer was doing things wouldn't cause more problems down the road. --- Michael Damm, MIS Department, Irwin Research Development V: 509.457.5080 x298 F: 509.577.0301 E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Drew Weaver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 12:11 PM To: 'Dan Lockwood'; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Datacenter electrical/genset I think maybe the reason you are being flamed is because generally people put in charge with the design/roll out of a data center environment should already know something about the logistics of such a project. Whether it is power, network, or pretty much any aspect of it for that matter. Also it can be fairly hard to determine the power requirements of a location without specific information, and the lack of said information probably frustrated people. Just a little editorial on why you may be getting flamed. -Drew -Original Message- From: Dan Lockwood [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 2:17 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Datacenter electrical/genset To throw some water on the flames that I have been receiving, I will be posting a summary of everyone's good information this weekend when I get time. It is my intention to make that information available to the community. Calling me names is childish and unnecessary. Again, thanks to those that took the time to participate. Dan Lockwood Microsoft Certified Professional CompTIA Network+ Certified Cisco Certified Network Associate
Re: An A record is an MX record and is a missing MX....
Adam McKenna wrote: On Thu, Apr 03, 2003 at 05:25:35PM -0500, Richard Irving wrote: It isn't exactly completely RFC compliant, but, it is only a -=Request=-, eh ? It is in fact required that an MTA fall back to the A record for a domain if an MX record does not exist. See RFC 2821, Section 5, Address Resolution and Mail Handling. Agreed, but nothing -requires- an MTA Agent have an MX record, in the first place it is just a best CBP. Not having one means you don't comply with ALL the RFC, but you are still RFC compliant. Not the same thing, FWIW. Obviously some admins I have encountered are starting to host mailservers for sub-domains and domains without MX entries on their DNS zone records. Relying on the A record alone. Lemmings make a mad dash towards a cliff, every so often, en masse This is a fallacy perpetrated by Disney. No, that they are committing suicide is a fallacy. That they jump up and begin migrating to lower population density regions is fact... and they just happen to suicide in the process. But, heck, ignore this one citation, and reference recent notions that war is possibly programmed into our gene's similar concept. Similar irrational mass behavior. Remember American Prohibition ? (aka: 21'st Amendment) rode in on the idea that Absinth was Evil Incarnate, and yes, the young were being lead to Hell itselfDamned! They were drinking Absinth, listening to no less than the Devil's -=Own=- Music! Imagine that, kids listening to Devil Music! (Ozzie, where are you ? War Pigs comes to mind...) Yes, Kids listening to Devil Music ! A cry not unheard among the generations, and perhaps one you have even heard yourself. Of course, helping to put it into context of those times, as opposed to your (probably) more recent context: Do you -=still=- concur that JAZZ is the Devil's music ? So, it was irrational behavior of the Masses, eh ? * shrug * Like I said, Lemmings ever so often jump up, and make a mad dash.. http://www.snopes.com/disney/films/lemmings.htm However, I feel that perhaps this discussion does NOT belong on NANOG. head to Nanog off topic, if you would like to continue the discussion ;) --Adam
Re: An A record is an MX record and is a missing MX....
Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, Richard Irving had to walk into mine and say: Agreed, but nothing -requires- an MTA Agent have an MX record, in the first place it is just a best CBP. Not having one means you don't comply with ALL the RFC, but you are still RFC compliant. Not the same thing, FWIW. As part of continuing escalations in the war on spam, some MTAs are now refusing to *accept* mail when the sender's domain does not have MX records defined. Whether this is a *wise* decision is becoming unimportant; people are doing it. -- Harald Koch [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: An A record is an MX record and is a missing MX....
On Fri, Apr 04, 2003 at 04:04:54PM -0500, Richard Irving wrote: Agreed, but nothing -requires- an MTA Agent have an MX record, in the first place it is just a best CBP. Not having one means you don't comply with ALL the RFC, but you are still RFC compliant. Not the same thing, FWIW. Yes, my point was that hosts that insist on an MX record being present are not RFC-compliant. Lemmings make a mad dash towards a cliff, every so often, en masse This is a fallacy perpetrated by Disney. No, that they are committing suicide is a fallacy. That they jump up and begin migrating to lower population density regions is fact... and they just happen to suicide in the process. Both are fallacies. They neither commit suicide nor jump off cliffs en masse. But as you demonstrated in the rest of your post, this is getting off topic... --Adam
Re: Abuse.cc ???
On Thu, 3 Apr 2003, Gerald wrote: I hate to play devil's advocate here, but I've been on the receiving end of the abuse@ complaints that became unmanagable. The bulk of them consisting of: Your user at x.x.x.x attacked me! (And this is sometimes the nameserver:53 or mailserver:113) We added this to the auto-reply of our abuse@ address: --- cut - here For complaints of port scanning or supposed hacking attempts, complete logs of the abuse are required. At a minimum, a log of abuse contains the time (including time zone) it happened, the hosts/ips involved and the ports involved. Please note that we received a large number of false complaints from people using personal firewall programs regarding port scanning. If you are submitting a complaint based on the logs from one of these programs we highly suggest you to read the following: http://www.samspade.org/d/persfire.html AND http://www.samspade.org/d/firewalls.html --- cut - here The abuse guys concentrate on spam reports, open-relay reports and sometimes port scanning reports from proper admins (these are easy to spot). Junk from dshield.org and the like is pushed to the bottom of the priority list. There are just too many random packets flying about for the personal firewall reports to be useful. The other problem is it's hard to act against a client based on one packet received by some person on the other side of the world running a program they don't understand. At least with spam reports you'll get several independant reports with full headers and if they use our servers we'll even have our own logs. -- Simon Lyall.| Newsmaster | Work: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Senior Network/System Admin | Postmaster | Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ihug Ltd, Auckland, NZ | Asst Doorman | Web: http://www.darkmere.gen.nz
Re: Abuse.cc ???
Well... I guess we'll have to see. If you've got a better alternative, I'm all ears. One thing that is certain... Without a policy, it cannot be enforced. Owen --On Thursday, April 3, 2003 4:27 PM -0800 Dan Hollis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 3 Apr 2003, Owen DeLong wrote: Perhaps proposed ARIN policy 2003-1b can help with this. If ou aren't familiar with it, I suggest reviewing it. I'm trying to gather support and consensus for it for the meeting next week in Memphis. under this policy, army.mil would have lost their allocations ages ago. however i doubt arin would have the balls to enforce it :-) -Dan -- [-] Omae no subete no kichi wa ore no mono da. [-]
Re: An A record is an MX record and is a missing MX....
There is one other situation where you need an MX record. If your domain is foo.com and the A record for foo.com is _NOT_ the machine that accepts mail for foo.com, you need an MX record pointing to the correct machine. Often this will be mail.foo.com or smtp.foo.com. Owen --On Friday, April 4, 2003 10:13 AM +0800 Indra PRAMANA [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 03:58 PM 4/3/2003 -0600, Gerardo Gregory wrote: Since then I have learned that some MTA's will look for an A record if it cannot find an MX record and use the A record instead. This is always the case. MX records are only required if you want to have more than one mail exchange servers to serve your domain, e.g. if you want to have a secondary mail server as a relay if the primary server goes down. If you only have one mail exchange server to serve your domain, you don't need MX records. An A record pointing to your mail server is sufficient. -ip-
Re: Looking for advice on datacenter electrical/generator
Natural gas is a big plus in many ways; one undervalued by both customers and generator sales folks.. I agree completely. But all that ONLY in non-tilting/shaking enviroments. If 'earthquake' does not mean something that happens out in THEIR state.. to you; then don't consider it. Why? In what case is it still not preferable to diesel? The _only_ reason I've ever heard an informed person state for going with diesel is that the fire marshal wouldn't allow them to store anything else. -Bill
RE: Looking for advice on datacenter electrical/generator
I'm in Santa Cruz County. Since I've been here, natural gas has been off for multiple days in a row twice. Once because of an earthquake, the second time because a winter storm put a lot of water in a hillside and the slide severed the (only) high pressure gas feed for the county. In both cases, electricity wasn't stable either. So for the last datacenter I built, I went with diesel. I've also been told, though I don't know how true it is, that diesel generators can go longer between service intervals, though for a datacenter I wouldn't skimp on routine maintenance anyway. Matthew Kaufman [EMAIL PROTECTED] -home [EMAIL PROTECTED] -work -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Woodcock ... Why? In what case is it still not preferable to diesel? The _only_ reason I've ever heard an informed person state for going with diesel is that the fire marshal wouldn't allow them to store anything else. -Bill
RE: Looking for advice on datacenter electrical/generator
On Fri, 4 Apr 2003, Matthew Kaufman wrote: natural gas has been off for multiple days in a row twice. So for the last datacenter I built, I went with diesel. I'm not following your logic... How does the fact that natural gas is _usually_ available on-tap, and diesel _never_ is make diesel preferable? -Bill
RE: Looking for advice on datacenter electrical/generator
This means that at least one of your generators (around here) should run on something you store on-site. And thus, if you can only afford one, that one must be in that category. Right. So if you have a choice of storing gas or diesel, and gas usually doesn't have to be replentished by truck, since it's _usually on-tap_, but diesel _always has to be replentished by truck_, since it's _never on-tap_, why would one ever choose diesel unless, as per previous caveat, clueless fire marshalls thought it was really preferable? -Bill
RE: Looking for advice on datacenter electrical/generator
Oh. I guess I missed the reasonably-priced natural gas generator that has an on-board compressor and tank system for storing natural gas. If such a beast exists, then yes, that makes even more sense. Matthew
Re: Contact with Clue at XO?
Sorry to populate the list with traffic like this... Extended IP access list 120 deny ip 216.156.98.0 0.0.0.255 any (31607418 matches) permit ip any any (43284187 matches) (this is under 2 hours) Which is a very, very bad thing. Can someone from XO, please contact me about this? 15:33:51 pfe R ge-0/0/0.0 ICMP 216.156.98.x 206.xx.xx.xx 15:33:51 pfe R ge-0/0/0.0 UDP 216.156.98.x 206.xx.xx.xx Apparently emails to their abuse dept with contact info and such do not generate responses. Thanks! -Eric Apparently, XO Sales people do troll this list, however, looking for marks. Of course, with all the Hi, I'm looking for colo/ds1/etc emails that nanog gets inundated with, I'm sure it is prime hunting ground for the Salessharks.
Re: Looking for advice on datacenter electrical/generator
Thus spake Bill Woodcock [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Fri, 4 Apr 2003, Matthew Kaufman wrote: natural gas has been off for multiple days in a row twice. So for the last datacenter I built, I went with diesel. I'm not following your logic... How does the fact that natural gas is _usually_ available on-tap, and diesel _never_ is make diesel preferable? As noted by other posters, natural gas often goes out at the same times as electricity in some areas (e.g. California). In fact, many power companies use natural gas to generate electricity. Relying on one public utility to supplant another is not logical unless either you have historical data to satisfy you that outages in one are rarely linked to the other, or you can store natural gas onsite to run long enough and only need the utility to refill later. S Stephen Sprunk God does not play dice. --Albert Einstein CCIE #3723 God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the K5SSSdice at every possible opportunity. --Stephen Hawking
Re: Looking for advice on datacenter electrical/generator
In a message written on Fri, Apr 04, 2003 at 04:13:46PM -0800, Bill Woodcock wrote: Right. So if you have a choice of storing gas or diesel, and gas usually doesn't have to be replentished by truck, since it's _usually on-tap_, but diesel _always has to be replentished by truck_, since it's _never on-tap_, why would one ever choose diesel unless, as per previous caveat, clueless fire marshalls thought it was really preferable? I'm not an expert but: 1) Storing natural gas is significantly harder (both in the containers and permiting) than Diesel. It also has less energy density, so it takes more space. 2) Having natural gas trucked in, rather than delivered via pipeline is also extremely difficult, and possibly impossible in some areas. The infrastructure simply doesn't exist. On the other hand I could pick up the phone and have a semi-truck full of Diesel in any major metropolitan area in an hour or so for cheap. Indeed, it's very easy to get guaranteed responce time diesel contracts for emergency generators, I'd love to know if anyone has even attempted that with Natural Gas delivery by truck. 3) Getting a natural gas feed for a large data center (read a couple of megawatts) is probably impossible in most areas. The distribution network for natural gas just isn't set up for it. Much less of a concern for the people who need a few hundred kilowatts. 4) In larger sizes, Diesel gensets are _cheap_. Remember, the thing sitting outside the data center is essentially the same as every diesel-electric railroad locomotive, every portable power source, and a whole number of other things. Natural gas isn't generally a good idea for your train locomotive, so the gensets are less tested, harder to find, and more expensive. So, IMHO, natural gas is good for smaller applications (probably under 250Kw), in areas where the gas is stable so you don't have to do on site storage. Otherwise Diesel is probably cheaper (both in genset cost and fuel cost), and easier to obtain. -- Leo Bicknell - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - CCIE 3440 PGP keys at http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/ Read TMBG List - [EMAIL PROTECTED], www.tmbg.org pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Looking for advice on datacenter electrical/generator
At 07:42 PM 4/4/2003, Stephen Sprunk wrote: Thus spake Bill Woodcock [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Fri, 4 Apr 2003, Matthew Kaufman wrote: natural gas has been off for multiple days in a row twice. So for the last datacenter I built, I went with diesel. I'm not following your logic... How does the fact that natural gas is _usually_ available on-tap, and diesel _never_ is make diesel preferable? As noted by other posters, natural gas often goes out at the same times as electricity in some areas (e.g. California). In fact, many power companies use natural gas to generate electricity. Relying on one public utility to supplant another is not logical unless either you have historical data to satisfy you that outages in one are rarely linked to the other, or you can store natural gas onsite to run long enough and only need the utility to refill later. It's quite as simple to store propane as it is diesel. Propane stored on-site is stable, needs no cleaning, and the genset is the same as you'd use for natural gas. Given the choice between storing a large quantity of diesel and storing a large quantity of propane, I'd take propane. Other folks would argue the other way. Scared about fire reaching your propane tank? Use in-ground tanks. Unlike fuel oil or gasoline, buried propane tanks are allowed, at least in some places. Think about it... leaking propane tanks don't pollute the soil, they pollute the air. Though I'm in an area where interruption of gas service isn't really a problem, the availability of gas is. Some towns just don't have gas service. So, we store propane. Not a big deal. I suspect, though I've never seen it done, that it'd be possible to set up a gas genset with both a pressurized tank of fuel and a connection to the mains, with valves to switch between.
Re: Looking for advice on datacenter electrical/generator
On Fri, 4 Apr 2003, Leo Bicknell wrote: 1) Storing natural gas is significantly harder (both in the containers and permiting) than Diesel. Having done both, I would say that gas is much simpler from a practical point of view, and a little worse from a permitting point of view. I'd rather go through the one-time hassle of the permitting rather than the continuing hassle of maintaining diesel facilities, any day. It also has less energy density, so it takes more space. That's true, though it's never been a sufficient difference to be problematic for me. 2) Having natural gas trucked in, rather than delivered via pipeline is also extremely difficult... It's very easy to get guaranteed response time diesel contracts I'd love to know if anyone has even attempted that with Natural Gas delivery by truck. Yeah, it's no problem. Certainly no different than deisel in a metro area, and much easier than diesel in rural areas. I've never had to ask for a rush delivery, but I've always been offered delivery the same day I've called, and I believe the contract guarantees four-hour deliveries when we need it. My tank is a 96-hour supply, so that's fine for me. 4) In larger sizes, Diesel gensets are _cheap_. The only difference between the diesel and gas genset is the carburetor, which is just different, not more expensive. -Bill
Re: Looking for advice on datacenter electrical/generator
On Fri, 4 Apr 2003, Daniel Senie wrote: I suspect, though I've never seen it done, that it'd be possible to set up a gas genset with both a pressurized tank of fuel and a connection to the mains, with valves to switch between. Yes, that's the way it's normally done. The input at the carburetor is valved based upon the pressure on the utility-line side. -Bill
Re[2]: Looking for advice on datacenter electrical/generator
On Fri, 4 Apr 2003 19:48:17 -0500 Leo Bicknell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So, IMHO, natural gas is good for smaller applications (probably under 250Kw), in areas where the gas is stable so you don't have to do on site storage. Otherwise Diesel is probably cheaper (both in genset cost and fuel cost), and easier to obtain. this is the gist of what i learned a couple of years back. when i asked the PE at the vendor (a Cat reseller) about gas vs. diesel, he showed me that for the size generator we were looking at, diesel was a much better bet on the economics alone. richard -- Richard Welty [EMAIL PROTECTED] Averill Park Networking 518-573-7592 Unix, Linux, IP Network Engineering, Security
Update to IANA IPv4 Page
Hello All, A few days later than originally expected but: As announced to this list earlier this year, the IANA has updated the IPv4 Address pages http://www.iana.org/assignments/ipv4-address-space to reflect the status of the following ranges as listed below. 173/8 Apr 03 IANA - Reserved 174/8 Apr 03 IANA - Reserved 175/8 Apr 03 IANA - Reserved 176/8 Apr 03 IANA - Reserved 177/8 Apr 03 IANA - Reserved 178/8 Apr 03 IANA - Reserved 179/8 Apr 03 IANA - Reserved 180/8 Apr 03 IANA - Reserved 181/8 Apr 03 IANA - Reserved 182/8 Apr 03 IANA - Reserved 183/8 Apr 03 IANA - Reserved 184/8 Apr 03 IANA - Reserved 185/8 Apr 03 IANA - Reserved 186/8 Apr 03 IANA - Reserved 187/8 Apr 03 IANA - Reserved 189/8 Apr 03 IANA - Reserved 190/8 Apr 03 IANA - Reserved Please send questions or comments to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Best regards, John mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Looking for advice on datacenter electrical/generator
At 04:04 PM 04/04/2003 -0800, Bill Woodcock wrote: On Fri, 4 Apr 2003, Matthew Kaufman wrote: natural gas has been off for multiple days in a row twice. So for the last datacenter I built, I went with diesel. I'm not following your logic... How does the fact that natural gas is _usually_ available on-tap, and diesel _never_ is make diesel preferable? -Bill Natural gas as generator fuel is generally not a good idea for a few reasons: - Natural gas is volatile, hence not a good option in earthquake prone areas - earthquake + natural gas line = big smelly leak - big smelly leak + spark = big fire - Diesel is fairly stable, and won't go up with quite so large a bang in a fire, not to mention it can only be ignited under extreme temperature and pressure - The gas gets cut off immediately in any fire situation, usually affecting a few city blocks at a time - Diesel is readily available, and can be delivered by any Joe Citizen during a disaster to the generator site, since it doesn't require much in the way of special containers Diesel generators come in both turbocharged and naturally aspirated models, which can easily be serviced by any competent diesel mechanic. Genset diesels are not any different than diesels in a passenger vehicle, tractor, or transport truck. In fact, diesels in gensets are engineered to work under much higher load conditions than vehicles, since they run constantly at a higher RPM under load Last, but not least: if you can't get diesel fuel from anywhere to run it, buy a few gallons of vegetable oil from the local supermarket and pour it in the tank. It'll work just as well. Timo
Re: Looking for advice on datacenter electrical/generator
At 05:01 PM 4/4/2003 -0800, Bill Woodcock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 4) In larger sizes, Diesel gensets are _cheap_. The only difference between the diesel and gas genset is the carburetor, which is just different, not more expensive. Not entirely accurate. Since has low volumetric energy density compared to diesel, NG/Propane gensets are basically de-rated diesel gensets. A 150KW diesel would be approximately 100KW as a NG and slightly less than that when running on propane. There is an interesting research/marketing paper from Onan/Cummings on current and emerging power generation methods including diesel, ng, propane, hydrogen, turbines, reciprocating engines, microturbines, and fuel cells. http://electrochem.cwru.edu/yeager/ohiofuelcell/Norrick-Cummins.pdf When I was evaluating gensets for our datacenter, I found a really interesting unit which uses propane and/or natural gas mixed with the air to extend the runtime by adding significant BTUs from the gas. However, it can run directly on diesel alone should the gas supply be interrupted for some reason. Very neat technology and obvious after the fact, but much more expensive. We opted for a standard diesel genset since it is reliable and proven. The last thing I wanted was unknowns in a energy source I need to depend on when everything else goes to hell. -Robert Tellurian Networks - The Ultimate Internet Connection http://www.tellurian.com | 888-TELLURIAN | 973-300-9211 Good will, like a good name, is got by many actions, and lost by one. - Francis Jeffrey
Re: Looking for advice on datacenter electrical/generator
At 05:01 PM 04/04/2003 -0800, Bill Woodcock wrote: 4) In larger sizes, Diesel gensets are _cheap_. The only difference between the diesel and gas genset is the carburetor, which is just different, not more expensive. -Bill Gasoline and natural gas engines run with a compression ratio of between 8.5:1 and 11:1 nowadays. Diesel engines require a minimum compression ratio of 22:1, since diesel fuel requires a lot of heat and extreme pressure to ignite. Natural gas engines use carburetors, while the newer gasoline engines are using fuel injection. The diesel genset engines use direct injection, there are no carburetors for diesel engines. Diesel fuel cannot be atomized by a carburetor the same way gasoline can, since it is a fuel oil. Timo
RE: Looking for advice on datacenter electrical/generator
On Fri, 4 Apr 2003, Bill Woodcock wrote: They're already there. Whether or not you use it doesn't affect the likelihood that it'll break in an earthquake. And FWIW, I've been throught a lot of earthquakes, and I've been through a lot of gas-line cuts, but the two have never coincided. Backhoes always so far. I was in LA during the big quake, I saw quite a few fires -- all gas-line cuts. -Dan -- [-] Omae no subete no kichi wa ore no mono da. [-]
RE: Looking for advice on datacenter electrical/generator
At 05:51 PM 04/04/2003 -0800, Bill Woodcock wrote: On Fri, 4 Apr 2003, Timo Janhunen wrote: Natural gas is volatile, hence not a good option in earthquake prone areas - earthquake + natural gas line = big smelly leak - big smelly leak + spark = big fire They're already there. Whether or not you use it doesn't affect the likelihood that it'll break in an earthquake. And FWIW, I've been throught a lot of earthquakes, and I've been through a lot of gas-line cuts, but the two have never coincided. Backhoes always so far. Backhoe, earthquake, bottom line is that there's a break. - The gas gets cut off immediately in any fire situation, usually affecting a few city blocks at a time When was the last time you saw a fire that affected a few city blocks? I'm sure gas would be cut off in the event of a fire of that magnitude, but are you arguing that diesel delivery would continue? Trucks rolling through the maelstrom? I'm not sure what your point is here. Gas being turned off usually affects a few city blocks. Diesel generators come in both turbocharged and naturally aspirated models, which can easily be serviced Hey, and engine is an engine, regardless of what you dump in the top. Doesn't make any difference to the mechanic, or the parts guy, or whatever... It's all the same parts. Ask a mechanic that question. You'll likely get a somewhat different opinion. Timo
Re: Looking for advice on datacenter electrical/generator
There is an interesting research/marketing paper from Onan/Cummings on current and emerging power generation methods including diesel, ng, propane, hydrogen, turbines, reciprocating engines, microturbines, and fuel cells. http://electrochem.cwru.edu/yeager/ohiofuelcell/Norrick-Cummins.pdf You're right, that's really good reading. interesting unit which uses propane and/or natural gas mixed with the air to extend the runtime by adding significant BTUs from the gas. However, it can run directly on diesel alone should the gas supply be interrupted for some reason. Very neat technology and obvious after the fact, but much more expensive. URL? -Bill
Re: Looking for advice on datacenter electrical/generator
A) Piped natural gas is highly reliable here in the East. I've not had such in 10+ years. An even-momentary outage is cause for great alarm (and media coverage) since they can't restart the line without visiting every residence, closing the shutoff, only then re-starting the line, and visiting every residence to re-light pilots, run a nose-check. (Dirty little secret of old black steel lines is they rust from the inside; but then don't leak much since the line pressure holds the flakes in place. But drop line pressure, they deflake and it's swiss cheese when restarted.) I infer the req'd earthquake valves in Califunny also close on line pressure failure; so you can restore the line without a shutdown visit first? B) I know of no good way to store natural gas on-site. The utility typically uses an underground cavern that was a salt dome and hollowed out with lotsa H2O. Compressing gas locally is even less likely; it takes real KW to run the compressor station, as well as a safety zone surrounding. C) Yes, you CAN store propane, a different product. But if you need a lot of fuel, errr. A big propane tank is 300 gallons. I suspect the Fire Marshall will take intense interest in storage near a building of any size, much less in. Propane is heavier than air. Some codes ban its use in a basement without positive ventilation, gas detectors etc. D) Diesel engines, err Diesel-fueled piston engines, be they 2 or 4-cycle, need frequent oil changes. I have every reason to think natural gas/propane fuel would require same less often; the washdown of such will evaporate out unlike #2 diesel. But I've been wrong before. E) There are dual fuel diesel engines; maybe several kinds. I've read of the ones at sewage plants that suck ...methane vapor... from the digester tanks; not only is it free but the stink burns with it. There are also natgas/propane/gasoline generators in the ~10KW size, but that's spark ignition. By the ways: 1) We don't mind dumb questions; they're easier to handle than dumb mistakes.. is the sign on a friend's machine shop. I applaud the OP for being willing to ask. 2) At least pre-Ashcroft, the cops need a warrant, or probable cause, to haul you off. At least in most states, the Fire Marshall does not. He can show up unannounced, throw you out, pull the main breakers and shut all the fuel valves. He leaves a red tag on the door and you are out of business. Especially post 7 WTC and West Warwick; I'd not expect lots of latitude from your local/state fire inspector. -- A host is a host from coast to [EMAIL PROTECTED] no one will talk to a host that's close[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead20915-1433
Re: Looking for advice on datacenter electrical/generator
A) Piped natural gas is highly reliable here in the East. I've not had ^ in 10+ years. an outage -- A host is a host from coast to [EMAIL PROTECTED] no one will talk to a host that's close[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead20915-1433
Re: Looking for advice on datacenter electrical/generator
On Fri, 4 Apr 2003, David Lesher wrote: : A) Piped natural gas is highly reliable here in the East. I've : not had ^ in 10+ years. : an outage Agreed; same here, though in the northeast, we do lie on what's considered a fairly significant fault line. Of course, should such come into play, geographical diversity of critical services would likely be of more importance. I'd suspect a quake in the northeast would have similar operational impact to a blizzard in SJ :) cheers, brian
RE: Looking for advice on datacenter electrical/generator
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Timo Janhunen Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 9:01 PM To: Bill Woodcock Cc: Matthew Kaufman; 'David Lesher'; 'nanog list' Subject: RE: Looking for advice on datacenter electrical/generator - The gas gets cut off immediately in any fire situation, usually affecting a few city blocks at a time When was the last time you saw a fire that affected a few city blocks? I'm sure gas would be cut off in the event of a fire of that magnitude, but are you arguing that diesel delivery would continue? Trucks rolling through the maelstrom? I'm not sure what your point is here. Gas being turned off usually affects a few city blocks. As a volunteer FF ... Actually, if a fire affects a few city blocks, there will be quite a few diesel trucks rolling if its a block of any magnitude. Cummins turbo diesels pumping 2000GPM out a ladder pipe drink a lot of diesel. Its not uncommon at all to refuel them on the fly with courtesy of your friendly BP delivery driver and its also fairly common to park an 1-1/2 fog stream underneath the truck fogging the exhaust lest we burn a hole through the pavement ... You'd have better odds of finding a diesel truck than the gas line being on with a large fire.
RE: Abuse.cc ???
I tell ya, what really gets me in a bad mood is when my PIX logs show the same IP address hitting port 80 on 25 different IP's and the time line is 2 seconds start to finish. And then you report it, and it continues after a week every single day. Substitute port 80 here with 1433, 139,135, and on and on.. When a Syslog trap with a NTP sync time base and the entire log is not good enough, I don't know what is Yesterday, I got word from a network operator that 50 entries was not sufficient. So I parsed 4 days's worth and sent them over 1200 messages from their block.. have not heard back yet.. With a syslog file, sometimes an IDSLog and a Syslog. Some ISP's either /dev/null all of it, or they can't stop their users or politics stop 'em.. Later, J -Original Message- From: Simon Lyall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 5:04 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Abuse.cc ??? On Thu, 3 Apr 2003, Gerald wrote: I hate to play devil's advocate here, but I've been on the receiving end of the abuse@ complaints that became unmanagable. The bulk of them consisting of: Your user at x.x.x.x attacked me! (And this is sometimes the nameserver:53 or mailserver:113) We added this to the auto-reply of our abuse@ address: --- cut - here For complaints of port scanning or supposed hacking attempts, complete logs of the abuse are required. At a minimum, a log of abuse contains the time (including time zone) it happened, the hosts/ips involved and the ports involved. Please note that we received a large number of false complaints from people using personal firewall programs regarding port scanning. If you are submitting a complaint based on the logs from one of these programs we highly suggest you to read the following: http://www.samspade.org/d/persfire.html AND http://www.samspade.org/d/firewalls.html --- cut - here The abuse guys concentrate on spam reports, open-relay reports and sometimes port scanning reports from proper admins (these are easy to spot). Junk from dshield.org and the like is pushed to the bottom of the priority list. There are just too many random packets flying about for the personal firewall reports to be useful. The other problem is it's hard to act against a client based on one packet received by some person on the other side of the world running a program they don't understand. At least with spam reports you'll get several independant reports with full headers and if they use our servers we'll even have our own logs. -- Simon Lyall.| Newsmaster | Work: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Senior Network/System Admin | Postmaster | Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ihug Ltd, Auckland, NZ | Asst Doorman | Web: http://www.darkmere.gen.nz
RE: Abuse.cc ???
On Fri, 4 Apr 2003, McBurnett, Jim wrote: Yesterday, I got word from a network operator that 50 entries was not sufficient. So I parsed 4 days's worth and sent them over 1200 messages from their block.. have not heard back yet.. I love the operators who deny the ip block belongs to them, so you send them back a whois with the appropriate bits underlined. This happens a *lot* with tier1's, who really should know better. Some ISP's either /dev/null all of it, or they can't stop their users or politics stop 'em.. With a lot of providers the official policy is to let the user do whatever they want as long as the check doesnt bounce and as long as a police officer doesnt arrive on the doorstep with a subpoena. But boy do they make a stink when people blackhole them! -Dan -- [-] Omae no subete no kichi wa ore no mono da. [-]
Re: Looking for advice on datacenter electrical/generator
At 06:25 PM 4/4/2003 -0800, you wrote: http://electrochem.cwru.edu/yeager/ohiofuelcell/Norrick-Cummins.pdf You're right, that's really good reading. It is interesting to see where they think backup power generation is going and the current ratios of operating costs vs. purchase costs vs. fuel availability vs. power outputs and duty cycles. interesting unit which uses propane and/or natural gas mixed with the air to extend the runtime by adding significant BTUs from the gas. However, it can run directly on diesel alone should the gas supply be interrupted for some reason. Very neat technology and obvious after the fact, but much more expensive. URL? http://www.gastechnologies.net/bifuel.htm This is one manufacturer of the control systems. We currently have enough diesel fuel to run for about 10 days without refueling so I couldn't justify the 2-3 times higher expense of a bi-fuel genset. Apparently, pretty much any genset can be modified for bi-fuel operation without any internal modification. The other advantage to bi-fuel systems is that the slew rate problems of lp/ng gensets are completely avoided. For those who haven't seen or heard of problems with natural gas or propane powered gensets, this is another argument against them. We heard from multiple genset vendors of slew problems and several actually refused to sell us gas gensets when they learned about our application - powering high inductive loads (A/C compressors) as well as UPSes with computer equipment. Apparently as the load changes based on cooling equipment cycling on and off, gas generators (even with electronic governors) have trouble keeping the RPMs constant. Cummings specifically stated that diesel gensets don't have this problem due to the higher slew rate and more accurate RPM control due to the higher energy density of diesel fuel - just another data point. He also noted that the bi-fuel (diesel/gas) systems did not exhibit this problem either. -Robert Tellurian Networks - The Ultimate Internet Connection http://www.tellurian.com | 888-TELLURIAN | 973-300-9211 Good will, like a good name, is got by many actions, and lost by one. - Francis Jeffrey
Re: Abuse.cc ???
McBurnett, Jim wrote: I tell ya, what really gets me in a bad mood is when my PIX logs show the same IP address hitting port 80 on 25 different IP's and the time line is 2 seconds start to finish. Yesterday, I got word from a network operator that 50 entries was not sufficient. So I parsed 4 days's worth and sent them over 1200 messages from their block.. have not heard back yet.. Well, if you find out, let me know. On Apr 2 we had (among others): 101233 hits on 445 from 203 sources, 43465 hits on 139 from 218 sources, 14399 hits on 80 from 1922 sources, 12106 hits on 21 from 6 sources, etc. And we would barely qualify as a small operation... Then we have the nutcases than scan a dozen or so proxy ports per host on a /17 netblock (APNIC source space, usually). Unless its a DoS and in the millions, I wonder how many outfits still give a flying fornication at a cyclically motivated glazed pastry anymore. Jeff
