Re: SpamConference 2004

[Patrick W . Gilmore]

On Jan 15, 2004, at 11:42 PM, Michael Wiacek wrote:

Hey everyone, anyone plan on stopping by the 2004 SpamConference at MIT
tomorrow? I got into Boston tonight, and man is it cold. Hopefully it
will have as good a turnout this year as it did last.
I live here, and YES IT IS.  Weather should be -10F by morning. :(

Anyway, a couple Akamaites will be there.  Everyone is invited for 
lunch, dinner, and/or drinks.  Anyone else?

--
TTFN,
patrick

SpamConference 2004

[Michael Wiacek]

Hey everyone, anyone plan on stopping by the 2004 SpamConference at MIT
tomorrow? I got into Boston tonight, and man is it cold. Hopefully it
will have as good a turnout this year as it did last.

mike wiacek.

Re: Juno.com Mail/Abuse contact?

[Suresh Ramasubramanian]

Mark Foster [16/01/04 16:19 +1300]:
> Sorry again for the noise folks.
> Have not been able to get hold of anyone @ juno.com through normal
> channels.
> If anyone here is from juno.com Security or Abuse could you please contact
> me offlist please, with regard to an email delivery issue.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] should get you a response inside of 24 hours. 

-- 
srs (postmaster|suresh)@outblaze.com // gpg : EDEDEFB9
manager, outblaze.com security and antispam operations

Juno.com Mail/Abuse contact?

[Mark Foster]

Sorry again for the noise folks.
Have not been able to get hold of anyone @ juno.com through normal
channels.
If anyone here is from juno.com Security or Abuse could you please contact
me offlist please, with regard to an email delivery issue.

Cheers
Mark.

Re: PC Routers (was Re: /24s run amuck)

[Randy Bush]

>  I used to work with an Ascend GRF (goes real fast) Router that was
> nothing more than a hacked BSD os running on a hard drive at first then
> they moved to a flash card that controlled some custom switching
> hardware.

yes, we tried those in beta.  literally went up in flames, yes real
flames.  one of the more exciting routers made from washing machine
parts i have ever seen.

randy

Re: PC Routers (was Re: /24s run amuck)

[Marius Strom]

Yep, that describes the old GRF400/800 to a T.  It was gated.

On Thu, 15 Jan 2004, Nicole wrote:
>  I used to work with an Ascend GRF (goes real fast) Router that was nothing
> more than a hacked BSD os running on a hard drive at first then they
> moved to a flash card that controlled some custom switching hardware.
> But all the functions were via the BSD os and I think it just used
> Gated.
> 
>  Sounds very similiar.
> 
> 
>   Nicole
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  |\ __ /|   (`\
>  | o_o  |__  ) )   
> //  \\ 
>  -  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  -  Powered by FreeBSD  -
> --
>  " Daemons" will now be known as "spiritual guides"
> -Politically Correct UNIX Page
> 
> "Witchcraft is in essence the worship of the powers of this world,
>  beautiful and terrible, but all in a circle under the turning sky
>  that is the One." -C.A. Burland, "Echoes of Magic"
> 
> "Connecting with energy is something humans have to be open
>  to and talking about and expecting,  otherwise the whole human
>  race can go back to pretending that life is about power over others
>  and exploiting the planet.  If we go back to doing this,
>  then we won't survive."  -James Redfield, "The Celestine Prophecy"
> 

-- 
   /->
Marius Strom   | Always carry a short length of fibre-optic cable.
Professional Geek  | If you get lost, then you can drop it on the
System/Network Admin   | ground, wait 10 minutes, and ask the backhoe
http://www.marius.org/ | operator how to get back to civilization.
   \-| Mike Andrews |>

RE: interesting article on Saudi Arabia's http filtering

[Vadim Antonov]

On Thu, 15 Jan 2004, H. Michael Smith, Jr. wrote:
 
> For the record... I have first hand knowledge that KSA's filtering is
> not too effective.

Good :) The more people are exposed to humanity of the "Great Satan", the 
less they're likely to tolerate their own fanatics and zealots.

--vadim

Re: PC Routers (was Re: /24s run amuck)

[Nicole]

On 15-Jan-04 Unnamed Administration sources reported Vadim Antonov said :
> 
> On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
>> Getting to 1mpps on a single router today will probably be hard. However,
>> I've been considering implementing a "clustered router" architecture,
>> should scale pps more or less linearly based on number of "PCs" or
>> "routing nodes" involved. I'm not sure if discussion of that is on-topic
>> here, so maybe better to take it offline.
> 
> This is exactly what Pluris PC-based proof-of-concept prototype did in 97.
> PCs were single-board 133MHz P-IIs, running custom forwarding code on bare
> metal, yielding about 120kpps per board, or 1.9Mpps per cage.
> 
> In the production box CPU-based forwarding was replaced with ASICs, 1Gbps
> hybrid optical/electrical butterfly/hypercube interconnect was replaced
> with 12Gbps optical hypercube interconnect, otherwise architecture was
> unchanged.  That was a total overkill which was one of the reasons the 
> company went down.
> 
> --vadim

 I used to work with an Ascend GRF (goes real fast) Router that was nothing
more than a hacked BSD os running on a hard drive at first then they moved to a
flash card that controlled some custom switching hardware. But all the
functions were via the BSD os and I think it just used Gated.

 Sounds very similiar.


  Nicole






 |\ __ /|   (`\
 | o_o  |__  ) )   
//  \\ 
 -  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  -  Powered by FreeBSD  -
--
 " Daemons" will now be known as "spiritual guides"
-Politically Correct UNIX Page

"Witchcraft is in essence the worship of the powers of this world,
 beautiful and terrible, but all in a circle under the turning sky
 that is the One." -C.A. Burland, "Echoes of Magic"

"Connecting with energy is something humans have to be open
 to and talking about and expecting,  otherwise the whole human
 race can go back to pretending that life is about power over others
 and exploiting the planet.  If we go back to doing this,
 then we won't survive."  -James Redfield, "The Celestine Prophecy"

Re: interesting article on Saudi Arabia's http filtering

[Suresh Ramasubramanian]

On 2004-01-16, Vadim Antonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Installing a whitelisting and challenge-response mail filer on my box 

[my rant about c/r elided as offtopic and beaten to death here]

> The solution to "high offensiveness" is to grow up and stop behaving like
> the sight of some physiological function is going to kill us. It is 

You might find a series of excellent papers by Prof Jon Zittrain and Ben
Edelman of the Berkman Center at Harvard Law School quite interesting.

For example, this one, delivered at APRICOT 2003 in Taipei titled "Internet
Filtering: Technologies & Best Practices"
http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/people/edelman/pubs/APRICOT-filtering


--srs

-- 
srs (postmaster|suresh)@outblaze.com // gpg : EDEDEFB9
manager, outblaze.com security and antispam operations


ps: Extract from that presentation: nice list, I must say ...

> Filtering Today: Who?
> China
> Saudi Arabia
> United Arab Emirates
> Vietnam
> Pennsylvania, USA
> Singapore
> Talking about it: Australia, Germany, Spain

RE: interesting article on Saudi Arabia's http filtering

[H. Michael Smith, Jr.]

For the record... I have first hand knowledge that KSA's filtering is
not too effective.

I'll abstain from the ethics/moral discussion.


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
Vadim Antonov
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 8:35 PM
To: Randy Bush
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: interesting article on Saudi Arabia's http filtering



On Thu, 15 Jan 2004, Randy Bush wrote:

> i was helping get the link up into kacst (their nsf equivalent) in
> ryadh back in '94, and a rather grownup friend there, Abdulaziz A.
> Al Muammar, who had his phd from the states and all that, explained
> it to me something like this way.
> 
> yes, to a westerner, our ways of shielding our society seem silly,
> and sometimes even worse.  but tell me, how do we liberalize and
> open the culture without becoming like the united states [0]?
> 
> not an easy problem.  considering the *highly* offensive material
> that arrives in my mailbox (and i do not mean clueless nanog
> ravings:-), my sympathy for abdulaziz increases monotonically.

Installing a whitelisting and challenge-response mail filer on my box 
reduced amount of spam to nearly zero.  I mostly get spam through the
e2e 
list nowadays.

The solution to "high offensiveness" is to grow up and stop behaving
like
the sight of some physiological function is going to kill us. It is 
offensive only because the offended party thinks that the world should
be 
a sterile place, and instead of concluding that the sender of the 
"offensive" material is a tasteless moron and moving on decides to wage
a 
war against human nature.
 
> so perhaps we should ask, rather than ranting, how do we, the
> self-appointed ubergeeks of the net, think we can clean up our own
> back yards, before we start talking about how others maintain
> theirs?

Maybe we should stop whining when others refuse to accept mail from
total 
unknowns without those unknowns making a small token effort to prove
their 
willingness to hold a civilized conversation?

I certainly don't care what they want to read or see. Or send, for that 
matter. None of my business.

> [0] - which, americans need to realize is, to much of the civilized
>   world, the barbarian hordes, sodom, and gomorrah rolled into
>   one

To much of the civilized world (and, besides Europe and Japan, no other 
places qualify, sorry) Americans look like neurotic prudes who have a 
peculiar hang-up on sex and deep inferiority complex compelling them to 
unceasingly seek affirmations of their "superiority".

Much of what goes for "offensive" in US won't get an eyebrow raised in 
Paris or Amsterdam.  In fact, the more likely reaction would be "how 
boringly lame".

As for the arabian friend who seeks to control what his compatriots are 
allowed to see, I'd say that his sensibilities are his own problem, and 
that if he wished to impose them on _me_ I'd tell him to mind his own 
business, possibly augmenting my message with appropriate degree of 
violence.

--vadim

Re: interesting article on Saudi Arabia's http filtering

[Vadim Antonov]

On Thu, 15 Jan 2004, Randy Bush wrote:

> i was helping get the link up into kacst (their nsf equivalent) in
> ryadh back in '94, and a rather grownup friend there, Abdulaziz A.
> Al Muammar, who had his phd from the states and all that, explained
> it to me something like this way.
> 
> yes, to a westerner, our ways of shielding our society seem silly,
> and sometimes even worse.  but tell me, how do we liberalize and
> open the culture without becoming like the united states [0]?
> 
> not an easy problem.  considering the *highly* offensive material
> that arrives in my mailbox (and i do not mean clueless nanog
> ravings:-), my sympathy for abdulaziz increases monotonically.

Installing a whitelisting and challenge-response mail filer on my box 
reduced amount of spam to nearly zero.  I mostly get spam through the e2e 
list nowadays.

The solution to "high offensiveness" is to grow up and stop behaving like
the sight of some physiological function is going to kill us. It is 
offensive only because the offended party thinks that the world should be 
a sterile place, and instead of concluding that the sender of the 
"offensive" material is a tasteless moron and moving on decides to wage a 
war against human nature.
 
> so perhaps we should ask, rather than ranting, how do we, the
> self-appointed ubergeeks of the net, think we can clean up our own
> back yards, before we start talking about how others maintain
> theirs?

Maybe we should stop whining when others refuse to accept mail from total 
unknowns without those unknowns making a small token effort to prove their 
willingness to hold a civilized conversation?

I certainly don't care what they want to read or see. Or send, for that 
matter. None of my business.

> [0] - which, americans need to realize is, to much of the civilized
>   world, the barbarian hordes, sodom, and gomorrah rolled into
>   one

To much of the civilized world (and, besides Europe and Japan, no other 
places qualify, sorry) Americans look like neurotic prudes who have a 
peculiar hang-up on sex and deep inferiority complex compelling them to 
unceasingly seek affirmations of their "superiority".

Much of what goes for "offensive" in US won't get an eyebrow raised in 
Paris or Amsterdam.  In fact, the more likely reaction would be "how 
boringly lame".

As for the arabian friend who seeks to control what his compatriots are 
allowed to see, I'd say that his sensibilities are his own problem, and 
that if he wished to impose them on _me_ I'd tell him to mind his own 
business, possibly augmenting my message with appropriate degree of 
violence.

--vadim

Re: "Third Level" domains patented?

[Eric Brunner-Williams in Portland Maine]

The equivalant notice and responsive observation was made on the registrar's
list a few days ago.

Eric

ARIN to allocate from 70.0.0.0/8

[Leslie Nobile]

Hello-

ARIN received the IPv4 address block 70.0.0.0/8 from the IANA on Jan. 15,
2004.  In the near future, ARIN will begin making allocations from this new
block.  This will include allocations of /20 and shorter prefixes,
according to ARIN's minimum allocation policy. 

You may wish to adjust any filters you have in place accordingly.

For informational purposes, a list of ARIN's currently
administered IP blocks can be found under "CIDR Blocks" at:

http://www.arin.net/statistics/index.html


Regards,

Leslie Nobile
Director, Registration Services
American Registry for Internet Numbers (ARIN)

"Third Level" domains patented?

[Scott Call]

http://news.com.com/2100-1038-5141810.html?tag=nefd_hed

According to the article, somebody maanged to patent the selling of
www.something.somethng.com.  Which seems a bit assanine to me, since the
ISP I worked for in 1993 offered custoemrs www.customer.ccnet.com.

As much as I dislike Verisign, this is silly.

I think I'll file a patent on organic O2/CO2 exchangers, and then sue
everyone who breathes

Break out the prior art



-Scott

-- 
Scott Call  Router Geek, ATGi, home of $6.95 Prime Rib
I make the world a better place, I boycott Wal-Mart

Re: interesting article on Saudi Arabia's http filtering

[Steve Carter]

There is a price to pay for freedom.  I would prefer to receive (or have
to personally control) all the nastiness that appears in my inbox than
give up any of my Internet freedoms.  But that is my opinion of what is
right for me.

That, however, does not answer your question.  My answer is that we do not
force our version of what is right or wrong on others.  The 'net is not an
entity that has ethics nor are 'ubergeeks' the right people to determine
what is and is not ethical for other users of the 'net.  That is
determined for us by the respective laws of the land in which we operate.

-Steve

* Randy Bush said:
> 
> i was helping get the link up into kacst (their nsf equivalent) in
> ryadh back in '94, and a rather grownup friend there, Abdulaziz A.
> Al Muammar, who had his phd from the states and all that, explained
> it to me something like this way.
> 
> yes, to a westerner, our ways of shielding our society seem silly,
> and sometimes even worse.  but tell me, how do we liberalize and
> open the culture without becoming like the united states [0]?
> 
> not an easy problem.  considering the *highly* offensive material
> that arrives in my mailbox (and i do not mean clueless nanog
> ravings:-), my sympathy for abdulaziz increases monotonically.
> 
> so perhaps we should ask, rather than ranting, how do we, the
> self-appointed ubergeeks of the net, think we can clean up our own
> back yards, before we start talking about how others maintain
> theirs?
> 
> randy
> 
> ---
> 
> [0] - which, americans need to realize is, to much of the civilized
>   world, the barbarian hordes, sodom, and gomorrah rolled into
>   one
> 

Re: interesting article on Saudi Arabia's http filtering

[Randy Bush]

i was helping get the link up into kacst (their nsf equivalent) in
ryadh back in '94, and a rather grownup friend there, Abdulaziz A.
Al Muammar, who had his phd from the states and all that, explained
it to me something like this way.

yes, to a westerner, our ways of shielding our society seem silly,
and sometimes even worse.  but tell me, how do we liberalize and
open the culture without becoming like the united states [0]?

not an easy problem.  considering the *highly* offensive material
that arrives in my mailbox (and i do not mean clueless nanog
ravings:-), my sympathy for abdulaziz increases monotonically.

so perhaps we should ask, rather than ranting, how do we, the
self-appointed ubergeeks of the net, think we can clean up our own
back yards, before we start talking about how others maintain
theirs?

randy

---

[0] - which, americans need to realize is, to much of the civilized
  world, the barbarian hordes, sodom, and gomorrah rolled into
  one

Re: Uunet/MCI communities

[Phil Rosenthal]

On Jan 15, 2004, at 6:54 PM, Wayne E. Bouchard wrote:

Trolling through some of my saved messages shows that this information
may be found at:
whois [EMAIL PROTECTED]

http://infopage.cary.cw.net/Routing_Registry/communities.htm

On Thu, Jan 15, 2004 at 05:45:34PM -0600, Ejay Hire wrote:
Can A Uunet/Mci person please unicast me a copy of the

UUnet != CW

--Phil Rosenthal
ISPrime, Inc.

Re: Uunet/MCI communities

[Wayne E. Bouchard]

Trolling through some of my saved messages shows that this information
may be found at:

whois [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
http://infopage.cary.cw.net/Routing_Registry/communities.htm

On Thu, Jan 15, 2004 at 05:45:34PM -0600, Ejay Hire wrote:
> 
> Hi all.
> 
> Can A Uunet/Mci person please unicast me a copy of the
> communities you can send?  I need to do some traffic
> shifting and I'd like to as-prepend all mci peer routes
> while leaving the mci customer routes unscathed.
> 
> Tier 1 support reccomended I contact the DNS group which
> seems a little odd, but I'm sending the request to them as
> well.
> 
> Thanks,
> Ejay Hire
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]

---
Wayne Bouchard
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Network Dude
http://www.typo.org/~web/

Uunet/MCI communities

[Ejay Hire]

Hi all.

Can A Uunet/Mci person please unicast me a copy of the
communities you can send?  I need to do some traffic
shifting and I'd like to as-prepend all mci peer routes
while leaving the mci customer routes unscathed.

Tier 1 support reccomended I contact the DNS group which
seems a little odd, but I'm sending the request to them as
well.

Thanks,
Ejay Hire
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

New IPv4 Allocation to ARIN

[Steve Conte]

Greetings,

This is to inform you that the IANA has allocated 70/8 to ARIN.

For a full list of IANA IPv4 allocations please see: 
.

Thanks,

Steve
---
Steve Conte - IANA
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
PGP KeyID: 0x0972C473

Re: interesting article on Saudi Arabia's http filtering

[Matthew Sullivan]

Chris Brenton wrote:

On Thu, 2004-01-15 at 17:11, Eric Kuhnke wrote:
 

And if he fails, what with the fact that sending all Internet traffic in 
the whole country through a single chokepoint obviously creates a single 
point of failure, all Net traffic in Saudi Arabia stops.
   

Not sure if its still the same setup, but up till 2 years ago this
consisted of 6 HTTP proxies sitting on the same class C. Best part was
they were _open_ proxies, so it was not uncommon to have a .net or .uk
attacker bounce through them on the way to attacking your site. 
 

Not open anymore (took some persuading with SORBS, but they got closed - 
doubt it was just SORBS, but I know he complained many times because 
they were running a lot of mail through the same subnet as well)

/ Mat

Re: interesting article on Saudi Arabia's http filtering

[Chris Brenton]

On Thu, 2004-01-15 at 17:11, Eric Kuhnke wrote:
>
> And if he fails, what with the fact that sending all Internet traffic in 
> the whole country through a single chokepoint obviously creates a single 
> point of failure, all Net traffic in Saudi Arabia stops.

Not sure if its still the same setup, but up till 2 years ago this
consisted of 6 HTTP proxies sitting on the same class C. Best part was
they were _open_ proxies, so it was not uncommon to have a .net or .uk
attacker bounce through them on the way to attacking your site. 

Oh joy...
C

interesting article on Saudi Arabia's http filtering

[Eric Kuhnke]

http://www.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=04/01/12/2147220

 RIYADH, Saudi Arabia -- Eyas S. Al-Hejery, PhD, may be the only 
computer geek in Saudi Arabia to have had the eyes of the world focus on 
his work. That's because he's head of the country's Internet Service 
Unit, which runs the country's infamous Web-censoring system that is 
supposed to defend Saudi citizens from "those pages of an offensive or 
harmful nature to the society, and which violate the tenants [sic] of 
the Islamic religion or societal norms."

..

And if he fails, what with the fact that sending all Internet traffic in 
the whole country through a single chokepoint obviously creates a single 
point of failure, all Net traffic in Saudi Arabia stops.

Re: /24s run amuck

[Simon Leinen]

Frank Louwers writes:
> On Tue, Jan 13, 2004 at 04:12:13PM -0500, Patrick W. Gilmore wrote:
> Filtering on a /20 or whatever (up to /24) is a bad thing because
> RIPE (and maybe APNIC) actually gives out /24 PI space, that comes
> out of RIPE's /8's, not your upstream's /20 or /16 or /whatever...

Yes, but those PIs are allocated from specific sub-ranges that are
documented.  So you can still filter MOST of the space by allocation
boundaries, and accept /24 only in the "PI" ranges.  We do this.

This is RIPE-specific (we aggregate most non-RIPE routes under
0.0.0.0/0), but other RIRs may have similar policies, although
probably with easier-to-find PI swamp ranges.
-- 
Simon.

RE: c1700 router

[Bill Woodcock]

> Check out
> http://www.cisco.com/warp/public/765/tools/quickreference/routerperforma
> nce.pdf

> The most I've run through one is four T1s and one FastE.  No problem to
> pass 50K pps.

Note that their claims vis-a-vis the 1760 were written by the 2600 group.
Who also claim that this router maxes out at 128mbps of RAM.  Reality
differs considerably from marketing.  Particularly marketing on behalf of
a competing product.

-Bill

Re: PC Routers (was Re: /24s run amuck)

[Vadim Antonov]

I can project a nearly infinite rate of growth in my personal income when
I deposit a $3.95 rebate check.  It's a matter of defining the sampling
period.

The truth is, that kind of creative statistics is exactly what allowed
Worldcom (and the rest of the telecom) to get into the deep pile of
manure.  

--vadim

On Thu, 15 Jan 2004, Randy Bush wrote:

> >> He also said that Internet is growing by 1000% a year.
> > "we're adding a DS3 per day [to the network]"
> 
> and, at the time, both statements were true.  
> 
> randy
> 

Re: PC Routers (was Re: /24s run amuck)

[james]

: It seemed that zebra was not following the RFC for OSPF.  

This would be one advantage to Quagga over Zebra. It is my understanding 
there have been many changes in Quagga to OSPF to make it 
standards compliant. 

James Edwards
Routing and Security
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
At the Santa Fe Office: Internet at Cyber Mesa
Store hours: 9-6 Monday through Friday
505-988-9200 SIP:1(747)669-1965

Re: PC Routers (was Re: /24s run amuck)

[Randy Bush]

> traffic doubled and tripled in a year, it didn't go 10x.

actually, at the time, mo said doubled every nine months. and
it did.

randy

Re: PC Routers (was Re: /24s run amuck)

[Deepak Jain]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I didn't say that I did it, but having a server with a backup OS image
in case your flash-drive fails isn't the worst thing in the world.  
Especially for a remotely-adminstered POP.
Possibly I misunderstood your words: There's no problem having 
backup image from network, but there's a problem doing network load 
as a rule (as you seemed to suggest for version control purposes).

Since we are talking about the purely hypothetical world of a 
global-network of PC-type routers, we could simply set this set of rules up:

When a network image is booted, it is set to automatically try to save 
itself over the existing network image (if media is available).

So, for an upgrade you set the router to boot to the network-boot 
"next". Then reload, upgrade complete.

For a flash memory or CRC error on the flash image, you boot to the 
network and can't save, but each time you reload you will have a working 
router.

You can rinse and repeat for configuration changes.

Hopefully I sound a little more sane today. :)

Deepak

Re: Looking for power metering equipment...

[Laurence F. Sheldon, Jr.]

"Mark E. Mallett" wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Jan 15, 2004 at 11:40:54AM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > Do you know a model number?  I can't seem to find anything like this on
> > radioshack.com.
> 
> (cc'd to nanog ..)
> 
> Shoot, I should have looked first.  I can't find it either.  I found
> the note from January 2003 where I heard about it, and it said:
> 
> 
> http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5+F008%5F021%5F003%5F000&product%5Fid=63%2D1152
> 
> or just go to radioshack.com and search for watt meter (two words)
> under test equipment orwhatever..
> 
> it says they're sold out online, so I don't know if they discontinued
> it after not getting a lot of sales.
> 
> The last sentence is foreboding.
> 
> Sorry about that.

A second or two asking Google fetched up more answers than I am
interested in sifting, but here is one:

http://www.americananalog.com/an_edgewise_mtr.htm

RE: Looking for power metering equipment...

[Ejay Hire]

Repairclinic.com has the Kill-a-watt meter for ~40.00.  Goes
up to 15 amps, but requres a unplug-plug making it
questionable for data center use.

http://www.repairclinic.com/0081.asp?RccPartID=1012487&Acc=1

-e 


> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On 
> Behalf Of Mark E. Mallett
> Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 10:59 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Looking for power metering equipment...
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jan 15, 2004 at 11:40:54AM -0500,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > Do you know a model number?  I can't seem to find
anything 
> like this on
> > radioshack.com.
> 
> (cc'd to nanog ..)
> 
> Shoot, I should have looked first.  I can't find it
either.  I found
> the note from January 2003 where I heard about it, and it
said:
> 
> 
>
http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&ca
te
>
gory%5Fname=CTLG%5+F008%5F021%5F003%5F000&product%5Fid=63%2D
1152
> 
> or just go to radioshack.com and search for watt meter
(two words)
> under test equipment orwhatever..
> 
> it says they're sold out online, so I don't know if
they 
> discontinued
> it after not getting a lot of sales.
> 
> The last sentence is foreboding.
> 
> Sorry about that.
> 
> mm

Re: PC Routers (was Re: /24s run amuck)

[Alexei Roudnev]

Hmm; home equipment is, in many cases, much better than _industrial one_, if
you concern about price/perfoamce .

Good example - HD disks. Industrial SCSI disks are 2 steps behind home, IDE,
ones. Home made computer is,  in many cases, much better than industrial
SERVER, from DELL.

Reason is very simple - companies have a very high price competition in home
market, and it drives prices down. Industrial market is much more
conservative. Cisco vs Linksys was a very good example - 100$ vs 1000$,
doing _almost_ the same.

(I do not advocate an idea of PC Router).

- Original Message - 
From: "Stephen J. Wilcox" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Randy Bush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "Richard A Steenbergen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 3:33 AM
Subject: Re: PC Routers (was Re: /24s run amuck)


>
> > he also said something on the order of "let's not bother to discuss
using home
> > appliances to build a global network."
>
> Hmm actually I'm not so sure, the trend has been the opposite .. lots of
PCs
> instead of mainframes and dumb terminals and the Internet itself has been
about
> spreading out the networking rather than centralizing it.
>
> Todays 'home appliances' have computing power in excess of that of todays
> routing equipment, the shortcoming is only the implementation and I think
that
> is getting pretty close now to doing what we require at the low and medium
> end, and I dont see that high end is that difficult.. if the
implementation
> works its just a matter of scaling, can you buy linecards with their own
> backplane yet..? if not I cant see it being hard and if the demand
arises...
>
> Steve
>
>

Re: Looking for power metering equipment...

[Mark E. Mallett]

On Thu, Jan 15, 2004 at 11:40:54AM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Do you know a model number?  I can't seem to find anything like this on
> radioshack.com.

(cc'd to nanog ..)

Shoot, I should have looked first.  I can't find it either.  I found
the note from January 2003 where I heard about it, and it said:


http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5+F008%5F021%5F003%5F000&product%5Fid=63%2D1152

or just go to radioshack.com and search for watt meter (two words)
under test equipment orwhatever..

it says they're sold out online, so I don't know if they discontinued
it after not getting a lot of sales.

The last sentence is foreboding.

Sorry about that.

mm

Re: Looking for power metering equipment...

[Mark E. Mallett]

On Thu, Jan 15, 2004 at 11:17:56AM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I'd like to find some small, cheap ammeters.  I only need a readable
> analog dial for current, no SNMP or anything fancy.  I'd like to be able
> to hardwire one to each individual circuit going into the racks.
> 
> Anyone know a candidate?

As odd as it sounds: Radio Shack makes some little wattmeters that can
show current, wattage, voltage on its single outlet, for something
like $20-$30 (I forget, I bought one a year or so ago to play around
with).  Digital readout though, not analog.  One annoying thing:  no
reset button for the cumulative stats, only powercycle will clear it.

mm

Re: Looking for power metering equipment...

[doug]

I'd like to find some small, cheap ammeters.  I only need a readable
analog dial for current, no SNMP or anything fancy.  I'd like to be able
to hardwire one to each individual circuit going into the racks.

Anyone know a candidate?

Thanks,

Doug

Re: Looking for power metering equipment...

[Richard J. Sears]

Hi Alex,

We monitor almost 400 20amp and 30amp 110V and 208V circuit breakers in
our data center in San Deigo. We utilize a system called Data Trax which
is tied into our Remote Power Panels and monitoring gear made by a
company called Invensys. Our power comes from our UPSs, ties into
redundant PDUs and then hits the RPPs where we pick up load with
inductive donuts. 

In our case, the Data Trax system alerts us is the usage goes over a
certain amperage that we set. As we sell 1/3 cabinets and only allow
customers 5.33 amps, we set those to alert (via e-mail, trap and visual
warning in my NOC) when those customers go over 5 amps. On standard 20
amp circuits, we alert at 15 amps. The customer is also notified at the
same time via e-mail so they can take corrective action.

We utilize the same system to monitor our DC plants as well.

The system works very well for us. Hope this helps a bit. Let me know if
I can answer any other questions.

http://www.invensys.com/

On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 01:33:52 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
Alex Rubenstein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
> 
> Preamble: We run a colocation center. We sell power to customers.
> 
> Question: We are looking for something that sits in the PDUs or branch
> circuit-breaker distribution load centers, that, on a branch-circuit by
> branch-circuit basis, can monitor amperage, and be queried by SNMP.
> 
> Considering there are several hundreds of circuits to be monitored, cheap
> and featureless (all we need is amperage via SNMP) is fine.
> 
> Looked at things like Square-D PowerLogin stuff, but thats very pricey,
> and does about 30x what we need.
> 
> Pointers? URLs? Experiences?
> 
> Thanks.


**
Richard J. Sears
Vice President 
American Digital Network  

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.adnc.com

858.576.4272 - Phone
858.427.2401 - Fax


I fly because it releases my mind 
from the tyranny of petty things . . 


"Work like you don't need the money, love like you've
never been hurt and dance like you do when nobody's
watching."

Re: PC Routers (was Re: /24s run amuck)

[Randy Bush]

>> He also said that Internet is growing by 1000% a year.
> "we're adding a DS3 per day [to the network]"

and, at the time, both statements were true.  

randy

Re: Looking for power metering equipment...

[David Lesher]

Speaking on Deep Background, the Press Secretary whispered:
> 
> 
> 
> Concur with you need wattage not amperage.  There is a 'relatively' cheap 
> method of doing this however local electrical codes may put a damper on 
> this type of project.
> 
> You put a current transformer on each branch circuit.  A 'typical' current 
> transformer will generate 1Millivolt per Milliampere.  You then install a 
> A/D board in a PC and write a simple application to query each channel of 
> the A/D.  or purchase a commercially available SMNP datalogger.
> 

I assume Alex is looking for a boxed solution. If not concur
it's Not Rocket Science [TM-Click&Clack] to build a system. You
can do the voltage sensing safely. {My too-early AM thinking is
that there will be too little phase shift in an unloaded Voltage
Transformer to worry about.}

You'd need a VT per panel leg, but a CT per branch circuit.




-- 
A host is a host from coast to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
& no one will talk to a host that's close[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead20915-1433

Re: Looking for power metering equipment...

[Scott McGrath]

Concur with you need wattage not amperage.  There is a 'relatively' cheap 
method of doing this however local electrical codes may put a damper on 
this type of project.

You put a current transformer on each branch circuit.  A 'typical' current 
transformer will generate 1Millivolt per Milliampere.  You then install a 
A/D board in a PC and write a simple application to query each channel of 
the A/D.  or purchase a commercially available SMNP datalogger.


Scott C. McGrath

On Thu, 15 Jan 2004, David Lesher wrote:

> 
> Speaking on Deep Background, the Press Secretary whispered:
> > 
> > 
> > Question: We are looking for something that sits in the PDUs or branch
> > circuit-breaker distribution load centers, that, on a branch-circuit by
> > branch-circuit basis, can monitor amperage, and be queried by SNMP.
> > 
> > Considering there are several hundreds of circuits to be monitored, cheap
> > and featureless (all we need is amperage via SNMP) is fine.
> 
> You really want wattage. The power factor of switched supplies
> is far from unity.
> 
> Take a look at 
> 
> Also, recall you sell each watt twice -- once to heat up
> a chassis, and a 2nd time for the HVAC to cool it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> A host is a host from coast to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> & no one will talk to a host that's close[v].(301) 56-LINUX
> Unless the host (that isn't close).pob 1433
> is busy, hung or dead20915-1433
> 

Re: Looking for power metering equipment...

[David Lesher]

Speaking on Deep Background, the Press Secretary whispered:
> 
> 
> Question: We are looking for something that sits in the PDUs or branch
> circuit-breaker distribution load centers, that, on a branch-circuit by
> branch-circuit basis, can monitor amperage, and be queried by SNMP.
> 
> Considering there are several hundreds of circuits to be monitored, cheap
> and featureless (all we need is amperage via SNMP) is fine.

You really want wattage. The power factor of switched supplies
is far from unity.

Take a look at 

Also, recall you sell each watt twice -- once to heat up
a chassis, and a 2nd time for the HVAC to cool it.




-- 
A host is a host from coast to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
& no one will talk to a host that's close[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead20915-1433

RE: PC Routers (was Re: /24s run amuck)

[Scott McGrath]

You buy a OSM from Cisco and you can queue and do QoS based upon bgp index 
or AS


Scott C. McGrath

On Wed, 14 Jan 2004, Michel Py wrote:

> 
> > Deepak Jain wrote:
> > With a network boot OS for each POP, you can do
> > version control much much more easily.
> 
> This is seriously flawed, IMHO. I'd encourage my competitors to do it:
> after the master image gets corrupted all it takes is a bozo tripping
> the right circuit breaker and the entire POP is kaput.
> 
> > QOS, priority/custom queueing are all KERNEL/underlying
> > OS functions.
> 
> This also is flawed, IMHO. What if you want to do queing or QOS based on
> BGP?
> 
> Michel.
> 

RE: PC Routers (was Re: /24s run amuck)

[David Barak]

--- Michel Py <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> If you have vendor C or vendor J, and all vendor C
> or J routers crap out
> at the same time, you're safe. Yes, you were down
> but so was half of the
> rest of the world, so it's obviously not your fault
> but vendor C or J's
> fault.

> Michel.
> 

But this doesn't reflect the way the problems tend to
spread: I've seen cases where something which crushes
C gets injected, carried by Js across a network, and
trashes all of the Cs in the network.  However, it
didn't spread to other providers, because the problem
was { too many /32s | weird masks | an IGP messup | a
J bug }

For a problem to spread to other networks, it has to
be perpendicular to the actual BGP configs, because
most carriers apply just enough filtering on their
peers to keep garbage like that out.  Problems like
that seem to be mostly customer-initiated.  The ones
that spread seem to be M$ related...

-David Barak
-Fully RFC 1925 Compliant-

=
David Barak
-fully RFC 1925 compliant-

__
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus

Re: PC Routers (was Re: /24s run amuck)

[Stephen J. Wilcox]

> he also said something on the order of "let's not bother to discuss using home
> appliances to build a global network."

Hmm actually I'm not so sure, the trend has been the opposite .. lots of PCs 
instead of mainframes and dumb terminals and the Internet itself has been about 
spreading out the networking rather than centralizing it. 

Todays 'home appliances' have computing power in excess of that of todays 
routing equipment, the shortcoming is only the implementation and I think that 
is getting pretty close now to doing what we require at the low and medium 
end, and I dont see that high end is that difficult.. if the implementation 
works its just a matter of scaling, can you buy linecards with their own 
backplane yet..? if not I cant see it being hard and if the demand arises...

Steve

Re: PC Routers (was Re: /24s run amuck)

[Michael . Dillon]

>If someone were to take *half* the software innovations which have been
>made over the past 15 years (a decent fib, interrupt coalescing, compiled
>packet matching rulesets, etc) and applied them as if they knew something
>about networking and coding, they could very easily produce a box using
>off the shelf PC hardware which woops up on a 7206vxr for somewhere less
>than $2000. 

Do you have any evidence that these improvements are not being done?
The people building supercomputer arrays using Linux have a need
for consistently high pps and bps that is greater than anything 
we see today on the Internet. They've been working on these types
of improvements in device drivers and the OS (Linux, *BSD) for
years now. You might not find this stuff in a standard enterprise
distro like RedHat or SUSE but it is trvial to source this stuff
and integrate it into your own build of the OS.

A lot of this discussion has been people guessing about performance
issues but few people have taken the time to put together a few
boxes with Linux or *BSD and either Zebra or Quagga to trial them.
We all go through detailed evaluations when buying C or J boxes, so
it's not a waste of time to trial some Z or Q boxes as well to see
what they can do. In the end, the resulting performance is affected
by so many factors that it can't be predicted without testing. For
instance, any weaknesses in the software might be completely nullified
by the greater CPU power of a PC platform. And lets not forget that
there are other platforms like ARM and PPC. Here's an ARM development
system with PCI http://www.simtec.co.uk/products/EB110ATX/intro.html
and here's a PPC one http://www.artesyncp.com/products/PM-PPC-440.html

And if anyone thinks that ASICs give C and J an speed advantage that
others can't touch, then guess again. Nowadays those ASICs are 
probably programmable ASICs which is a fancy way of saying that they
are mostly made up of FPGA cells. It is not that difficult or expensive
for people to design and build their own ASIC using cheap FPGA technology
from companies like Xilinx. This is basic sophomore level electronics
and is simple and cheap enough that people even hack their own MP3
players using FPGAs http://www.pjrc.com/tech/mp3/fpga/

PC-based routers may not be magic bullets but I think we should take
them a lot more seriously especially if you want to innovate and 
offer something that differentiates you from other network operators.
In a world where everybody runs C and J networks, there is only one
flavor available, vanilla.
--Michael Dillon

Re: PC Routers (was Re: /24s run amuck)

[Neil J. McRae]

> This also is flawed, IMHO. What if you want to do queing or QOS based on
> BGP?

That doesn't make any sense.

You could only do the signalling for such a requirement in BGP and
that isn't too hard to implement but the actual work to do 
QoS/queuing are in the kernel/OS/architecture irrespective of vendor
or platform.

Regards,
Neil.

Re: PC Routers (was Re: /24s run amuck)

[Neil J. McRae]

> It is not a joke - we had such scenario few years ago (it was 'gated vs
> Cisco and WellFreet vs Cisco'). And such scenario make Juniper back-bone a
> little dangerous (but I believe that JUNIPER debugged such problems long
> ago, so it is not a case today).

Yes this has happened a few times, also things like very long
AS paths and address family interfaces would take GateD down alot. [I
must confess to not have used Zebra] The fix for this that I 
deployed in GateD was to add large chunks of code to ignore anything
that it didn't understand, some of these were complete botches but it
stopped the gated.core's from appearing.

Regards,
Neil.

Re: PC Routers (was Re: /24s run amuck)

[Neil J. McRae]

This year is the 10 year aniversary of Demon using NetBSD/GateD to
talk BGP4 to Sprint, Pipex, JANET and GBNet on Sparc IPX and i486/DX2/66 
boxes, 20,000 routes at the time as I recall. [10,000 new routes a year ?]

PC's as routers is a good way to save a few pounds [dollars!] only
if you don't expect ever to need more than about 100M - 200M of traffic 
through the box and this number is highly variable depending on the packet
size and number of packets. When PCs are pushing alot of traffic Gaming type 
applications suffer really badly.   But for a small organisation who
just wants a cheap way of talking BGP4 to an upstream its a great solution.

The issues that you hit tend to be maintaining the boxes well. If you have
a Unix team already supporting Linux or BSD then this shouldn't be a large 
amount of extra work - you also need a decent test rig to test new versions of 
things, but that is true of any platform. You still get hit with the usual
PC issues, disk drive failures occur and wierdness around disks and
filesystems happen. If your PC router crashes reboots and decides to delete
the inodes for your serial ports that connect your box to the Internet during
fsck its a major annoyance and it usually happens 2 bottles of beer into
a Friday night. Yes there are issues with flash cards but these are much
more manageable. If you don't have a good unix team don't even think
about doing this.

> o) It has no features - not a problem for a lot of purposes

I don't think thats true. What features do you need?

> o) On a standard PCI but your limit is about 350Mb, you can increase that to a 
> couple of Gb using 64-bit fancy thingies

If you stick to ethernet but I've found that you run into other issues when
you use gige [dodgy motherboards and hardware slow ram etc]. One motherboard
manufacturer that I've found that is very good is ASUS but they haven't
done too much 64bit wise.

> o) This may be fixed but I found it slow to update the kernel routing table
> which isnt designed to take 12 routes being added at once

Not my experience but I'd say that this is true with other platforms.

> Icky, could perhaps cause issues if theres a major reconvergence due to an 
> adjacent backbone router failing etc, might be okay tho

Alot of people don't need the full routeing table. If you are smart
you should ask your providers to announce their own internal routes and
a default route. Use those routes so that traffic to Provider A goes via
Provider A and the rest really doesn't matter in most cases.

> o) As its entirely process based it will hurt badly in a DoS attack

That certainly isn't true and will depend on the OS and the way you have
set it up. It is possible to compile PPP [etc] into the kernel and 
run them in kernel space, I found this to be a requirement on E1
serial drivers and I would expect the same to be true of higher
bandwidth drivers.

> This is a show stopper. I need the box to stay up in an attack and be responsive 
> to me whilst I attempt to find the source.
> 
> I'm not an expert in PC hardware, so I do struggle to work out the architecture 
> that I need and I'm sure its possible to build boxes that are optimised for this 
> purpose however I'm still not convinced that the box can keep up with the 
> demands of day to day packet switching - I'd like to hear otherwise tho.. has 
> anyone deployed a PC with Zebra that could switch a few Gbs, didnt suffer from 
> latency or jitter or fail under a DoS?

I doubt it, but the fact is the other major routeing vendors haven't solved
this either! 

Regards,
Neil.

RE: PC Routers (was Re: /24s run amuck)

[Michel Py]

> Alexei Roudnev wrote:
> Purchase SuperMicro U1 server, with 2 9 Gb SCSI
> disks (hot swappable).

Suddenly that cheap router ain't cheap anymore.


> Now, say, announce A crash Cisco IOS. 99.9% Internet backbones
> are Ciscos, so this announce breaks few Ciscos around and die
> - so you never know about it (and will not have a chance to be
> happy that _this announce crash Ciscos but do not crash ZEBRA).
> Not bad, of course - you are alive, all Internet is alive.
> Now, say, announce B crash ZEBRA (and do not crash Cisco). It
> will spread until it reach first ZEBRA on it;'s road - _your_
> ZEBRA. So all Zerbras in Internet crash at once (and you are
> unhappy).

Another variant: announcement C crashes vendor "A", but not vendor "B"
and not Zebras either (put whoever you want for "A" and "B" but there's
only two of them on the backbone, mostly). Unfortunately, it takes a few
minutes to crash, so it has enough time to propagate all over the
Internet before the first "A"s begin to crash. As more "A"s crash "B"s
will quickly be overwhelmed and the entire internet soon is down because
no matter who coded it, when half of the backbones takes a hike the
other half follows.

Your Zebra is still up, but it does not do you any good because the
entire Internet is down and you're only a small leaf on its edge, so
nobody knows that you are still up, and they don't care anyway because
no matter what they can't get anywhere.

And yes this happens; not to beat or pick on any of the parties, I
remember the entire AT&T frame relay network being down nationwide for
more than 24 hours (for parts) because (as it is rumored) someone pushed
a bad piece of software on a Stratacom switch.

[me puts the asbestos suit on]




If you have vendor C or vendor J, and all vendor C or J routers crap out
at the same time, you're safe. Yes, you were down but so was half of the
rest of the world, so it's obviously not your fault but vendor C or J's
fault.

If you have a zebra one a homebrew PC and all Zebras crap out:
1. You can't blame C or J. Worse, you can't blame anybody else.
2. As a coincidence, a sales droid from C or J will see your boss in the
following days, take him/her to a nice restaurant, and will inevitably
say "this would not have happened if you had a real router instead of
this garage-built crud".
3. The sales droid is full of it, but _you_ are deep into it.




Life is not fair, is it?

Michel.

Re: PC Routers (was Re: /24s run amuck)

[E.B. Dreger]

> Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 23:16:22 -0500 (EST)
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


> You may find it interesting that both Linux and FreeBSD now
> have interrupt coalescing, and www.hipac.org is building a
> compiled ruleset.

grep usec_delay /sys/most/any/nic/driver/*.c


Eddy
--
Brotsman & Dreger, Inc. - EverQuick Internet Division
Bandwidth, consulting, e-commerce, hosting, and network building
Phone: +1 785 865 5885 Lawrence and [inter]national
Phone: +1 316 794 8922 Wichita
_
  DO NOT send mail to the following addresses :
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sending mail to spambait addresses is a great way to get blocked.

Re: PC Routers (was Re: /24s run amuck)

[Alexei Roudnev]

And there is software mirror.

Purchase SuperMicro U1 server, with 2 9 Gb SCSI disks (hot swappable).
Install Linux SuSe with RAID-1.
Install WEBMIN for remote management.

(Of course, it's still worst than Cisco IOS, but it works).

- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Michel Py" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 5:55 PM
Subject: RE: PC Routers (was Re: /24s run amuck)


>
> > The main issues I have with zebra are:
> > 1. The need to install an OS on the host.
> > 2. The need to harden it.
> > 3. The possible hard disk failure (having *nix on ATA flash is no better
> > given the actual limits in the number of times one can write to flash).
>
> There are linux and freebsd distributions that aim to minimize the "OS"
> layer to suit router better. Linux also has a filesystem that spreads
> writes across the flash area, so you are not likely to write single block
> 10 times in your life.
>
> 
>
> >
> > How does zebra deal with QOS/priority/custom/queuing/LLQ? With CAR? With
> > IDS? With route redistribution to/from OSPF or ISIS? With multichassis
> > multilink PPP? With spanning tree on multiple VLANs? With peer groups?
> > With SNMP?
> >
> > How does the host deal with 802.1q trunks? With Channel interfaces? With
> > hot-swapping a line card? With TCP MD5?
> >
> > These are the questions I ask myself when I pick a routing platform.
> > Cheap is of no use to me if it does not do what I need.
> The above are not Zebra issues: It is the host platform.
>
> For qos/priority/custom queueing/CAR, Linux has tc, and FreeBSD has ALTQ,
> which in my opinion, are at least as good as vendor C and vendor J
> equivalents.
>
> For everything else, I'll answer for Linux host platform, as that's what
> I'm most familiar with:
>
> IDS = snort, again, competive to proprietary solutions
> ISIS = beta status on quagga, not recommended.
> Route redistribution = yes
> multichassis ppp = no
> spanning tree = yes
> per-vlan-spanning-tree = yes
> dot1q = yes
>
> hotswap = *should* work, with PCI hot-plug, but you may have to
>   make certain configuration changes manually post-swap
>
> TCP MD5 = yes in 2.6
>

Re: PC Routers (was Re: /24s run amuck)

[Alexei Roudnev]

There is one more interesting problem.

Let's, say, you install PC with ZEBRA and have all 120,000 prefixes.
Internet is _internet_, sometimes people make a crazy things,
and create a bad (misconfigured, or very long, or very unusual) announces.
Some announces are fatal for Cisco IOS, some for Zebra, some for WellFleet
(do someone remember it? Very big competitor -:)).

Now, say, announce A crash Cisco IOS. 99.9% Internet backbones are Ciscos,
so this announce breaks few Ciscos around and die - so you never know about
it (and will not have a chance to be happy that _this announce crash Ciscos
but do not crash ZEBRA). Not bad, of course - you are alive, all Internet is
alive.

Now, say, announce B crash ZEBRA (and do not crash Cisco). It will spread
until it reach first ZEBRA on it;'s road - _your_ ZEBRA. So all Zerbras in
Internet crash at once (and you are unhappy).

It is not a joke - we had such scenario few years ago (it was 'gated vs
Cisco and WellFreet vs Cisco'). And such scenario make Juniper back-bone a
little dangerous (but I believe that JUNIPER debugged such problems long
ago, so it is not a case today).

RE: PC Routers (was Re: /24s run amuck)

[Michel Py]

> Deepak Jain wrote:
> With a network boot OS for each POP, you can do
> version control much much more easily.

This is seriously flawed, IMHO. I'd encourage my competitors to do it:
after the master image gets corrupted all it takes is a bozo tripping
the right circuit breaker and the entire POP is kaput.

> QOS, priority/custom queueing are all KERNEL/underlying
> OS functions.

This also is flawed, IMHO. What if you want to do queing or QOS based on
BGP?

Michel.