Re: Certification or College degrees?
(this is actually my first NANOG post ever...) --On Thursday, May 23, 2002 03:07:55 +0100 cw [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am currently studying a BSc degree in merry old England. I have just finished my second year (well I'm part way through the exams). When I applied to do my degree I found two universities whose course were anything related to Networking. Mine is called Computing (Networks and Communications). snip explanation of curriculum that I'd avoid At the Royal Institute of Technology in Stockholm, Sweden, we have a series of courses that focus on networking. The starting one can be seen as getting the programmer to know IP's quirks, but as we progress, we teach deeper and deeper into the technicalities of routing, including theory of routing (discussion of Dijkstra, and similar) and practice; we have a routing lab where we first make them understand that static routes don't work and then progress into understanding first OSPF, then BGP. The entire package runs over a period of half a year. Prereqisites are that the student is at her/his third year in a Master of Science path aiming for one of Computer Science, Technical Physics or Electric Engineering; i.e. we want people to have a solid ground in theory before we teach them the dirty details of networking. The best students are encouraged to write their final paper in the field of networking. Some of these are later found working at KTHNOC operating the NREN Sunet and the pan-Nordic REN NorduNet. Myself, I teach DNS in the introductory classes, including such novelties as DNSSEC, which we have the students sweat over in the lab. I've been somewhat depressed by the point-and-click generation, who don't understand classic Unix, (because the DNS part does border quite a bit on sysadmin stuff, which we do not teach) but on the whole, it's been successful. -- Måns NilssonSystems Specialist +46 70 681 7204 KTHNOC MN1334-RIPE We're sysadmins. To us, data is a protocol-overhead.
Re: Certification or College degrees?
On Sun, May 26, 2002 at 08:33:11AM +0200, M?ns Nilsson wrote: (this is actually my first NANOG post ever...) At the Royal Institute of Technology in Stockholm, Sweden, we have a series of courses that focus on networking. The starting one can be seen as getting the programmer to know IP's quirks, but as we progress, we teach deeper and deeper into the technicalities of routing, including theory of routing (discussion of Dijkstra, and similar) and practice; we have a routing lab where we first make them understand that static routes don't work and then progress into understanding first OSPF, then BGP. Nothing is more stable and cuases less pain than static routing. And it always works. Ofc ourse it doesn't scale very and also doesn't support alternate paths very well ;-)) -- Arnold Nipper / nIPper consulting mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?
On Wed, 22 May 2002, Kristian P. Jackson wrote: Perhaps a bachelors in network engineering is in order? I'm afraid there's not enough stuff one has to know to sucessfully design networks to fill more than one-semester course. --vadim
Re: Certification or College degrees?
After reading this thread I had to include my thoughts regarding this. Certifications/Degrees can be good, but they should not be regarded as a degree of skill. If employers only wish to look at those items (Certs/Degrees) then it becomes yet another political agenda and further delays the success of a company's goal or target. This of course is not the case for all Certifided folks but none the less. I'll never forget the day (years ago) I walked into work and saw a MCSE with a look like a deer stuck in the headlights of a tractor trailor about to be hit. Yes, a a Cert did a great job there as hundreds of people couldn't access email of months and months, while the fix for this was to call MS support and wait on hold only to be told that the backup of the email was corrupt. Unconventional methods of a non-certifided were able to recover the lost data. Not to generalize here, but most of the Certified folks I have worked with are what we consider paper tigers. If its not in the text book then your in trouble. I'll agree that a Degree will help perhaps in the finer items for the overall picture of a network but I'll not say it makes one a network engineer or expert. The only thing I found useful with college was that it helped when explaining what I do or plan to do to management. Well, you just have to love those job postings that say CCIE + MCSE + CCNE + A++ preferred and note to sell or not buy that stock. just my 2¢s -Joe (No certs)
Re: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?
Andrew, The college I am attending, Strayer Univeristy, has a B.S. degree in Internetworking. While it is kinds geared towards Cisco the good part is that they will give credit for life experience etc. I am getting credit for 8 classes due to my work experience in the field. The also have online courses so you do not have to actually go to class. They are a private school so tuition is a bit higher than state run schools but to me worth the cost since I do not think a degree in Computer Science is going to help me in my career. The price for the online courses are the same no matter where you live. Finally, they are fully accredited. www.strayer.edu Monkeys screamed incessantly when Andrew Dorsett said: On Wed, 22 May 2002, Kristian P. Jackson wrote: running around acting like network engineers, just as a bunch of network engineers are no more qualified to program. Perhaps a bachelors in network engineering is in order? EXACTLY my conceptSo why can't we find some university and develop this so I can transfer into a program I enjoy - Andrew --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.andrewsworld.net/ ICQ: 2895251 Cisco Certified Network Associate Learn from the mistakes of others. You won't live long enough to make all of them yourself. Cheers, Rick Casarez, CCNP/CCDP Systems Engineer II Phone: 703-886-7468 - WorldCom powered by the UUNET backbone -
Re: Certification or College degrees?
Unnamed Administration sources reported that Brian said:
Computer science does enforce critical thinking skills, which are a very
necessary part of any successful engineer's toolbox.
Remember that Learned everything in Kindergarten book a while back?
Well, a good engineering education teaches you less, but educates
you more, than you might think.
Specifically, you learn how to know what you [don't] know, and
how to learn more as needed.
But most pivotal, it hammers a *rigorous, systematic, problem
solving approach* into you. If you can't grasp embrace that,
you'll be gone. As an older student, I watched lots of bright young
faces, all smarter than YT, trip at that fence and change majors.
(Me? I could never grok the sole philosophy course I tried...)
Just like no one can ever really write a large program, no one
can solve a large problem. Just like a soldier dives for a
foxhole when he hears weapons fire, and THEN thinks; when your
reflex is how do I break up {whatever} into parts I can
handle? then you're over the hump.
THAT won't be obsolete when Billy introduces Windows 2, and we
have 6ESS's DMS 2500's.
--
A host is a host from coast to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
no one will talk to a host that's close[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead20915-1433
Re: Certification or College degrees?
Tis amazing as an engineering major to watch how many students drop as the
calculus gets tougher and tougher..
Bri
On Thu, 23 May 2002, David Lesher wrote:
Unnamed Administration sources reported that Brian said:
Computer science does enforce critical thinking skills, which are a very
necessary part of any successful engineer's toolbox.
Remember that Learned everything in Kindergarten book a while back?
Well, a good engineering education teaches you less, but educates
you more, than you might think.
Specifically, you learn how to know what you [don't] know, and
how to learn more as needed.
But most pivotal, it hammers a *rigorous, systematic, problem
solving approach* into you. If you can't grasp embrace that,
you'll be gone. As an older student, I watched lots of bright young
faces, all smarter than YT, trip at that fence and change majors.
(Me? I could never grok the sole philosophy course I tried...)
Just like no one can ever really write a large program, no one
can solve a large problem. Just like a soldier dives for a
foxhole when he hears weapons fire, and THEN thinks; when your
reflex is how do I break up {whatever} into parts I can
handle? then you're over the hump.
THAT won't be obsolete when Billy introduces Windows 2, and we
have 6ESS's DMS 2500's.
--
A host is a host from coast to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
no one will talk to a host that's close[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead20915-1433
Re: Certification or College degrees?
On Wed, 22 May 2002, Stephen Sprunk wrote: Thus spake Nigel Clarke [EMAIL PROTECTED] Certifications are a waste of time. You'd be better off obtaining a Computer Science degree and focusing on the core technologies. If you're looking to write software, sure. A CompSci degree won't help you in the slightest at operating networks. Stephen - I bet I can do networks much much better than most cisco CCIEs, even after years of doing network-unrelated work :) That's because I understand _why_ the stuff is working, not only how to make cisco box to jump through hoops. Yes, but after you'll read a few books when you start working as a network engineer again (if -:)). CCIE just come and say _gays, you need Cisco XXX with IOS YY.YY and configure CEF, RED, packet inspection, bla bla bla... and he remember exact IOS commands. If people want a narrow edicated engineer, they need CCIE-only gay. If they weant someone who can do everything (may be, with extra time to learn specific piece of hardware) - they need someone like Vadim. And CCIE is not a good example - it's the BEST certification degree I ever know; other certifications are much worst - most of them are just _guess an answer_ tests. Of course, knowing _top change a domain, you need to reinstall the system_ (from some old MS exam) is very important one (because no one can guess an answer). Btw, a friend of mine, very (VERY) high skilled gay, is looking for the new job today. When I told about him with someone, I always explain _he worked with MS and CISCO for a 10 years; he teach Microsoft in Moscow, he designed a networks, he worked as a PS for a 2 years, he bring Ascends into the Russia, he know Everything about MS and Cisco. Oh, you need his credentials - btw, he is CCIE and MS certified engineer. I never start from certificates, because they say nothing except _gay can read a books and can learn to answer a questions_. (Do you need jobless CCIE + MS certified _do not remember who_? You can hire one just now).
Re: Certification or College degrees?
Thus spake Vadim Antonov [EMAIL PROTECTED] Stephen - I bet I can do networks much much better than most cisco CCIEs, even after years of doing network-unrelated work :) That's because I understand _why_ the stuff is working, not only how to make cisco box to jump through hoops. ... You don't. You devote your career to learning networking. IOS is a base skill which is necessary (today) to utilize that knowledge and, more importantly, get a job. Yawn. Are you serious? Sure, you need to have some idea of what things are and how they work, but finding a magic incantation in IOS manual is not something which only ceritified cisco engineers can do. Unless both IOS and documentation deteriorated much much further than I think. Where did I say that? Read my statement again; I think you're in violent agreement with me. A person with lots of knowledge and no skills is a liberal arts major, not an engineer. One of the best network engineers is the world is a liberal arts major :) I find most of them make great fry cooks ;) Academic respect doesn't pay the bills. Sure, being a trained _technician_ pays bills. Just about. In my experience, having a real education does much more. If you take a non-logical, non-visual, non-geeky technician and push him through a CS program, he'll emerge still a technician. Will a piece of paper make him a more valuable employee? Probably not. Degrees are, in essence, a certificate that you are capable of learning things by rote and regurgitating them later, possibly applying a small amount of thought (but not too much). Depends on where you got it. Try to get through MIT or Stanford by learning thing by rote :) I think you'll find yourself with self-esteem below the floor, and a ticket home after the very first exams. I do have great respect for MIT, Stanford, and a few others. However, only a tiny fraction of 1% of CS grads come from those programs. I'm basing my stance on the rest of the population. S
Re: Certification or College degrees?
Thus spake Blake Fithen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Stephen Sprunk Thus spake Nigel Clarke [EMAIL PROTECTED] Certifications are a waste of time. You'd be better off obtaining a Computer Science degree and focusing on the core technologies. If you're looking to write software, sure. A CompSci degree won't help you in the slightest at operating networks. Usually what you say is helpful. I have to disagree with you here though. A few things I learned in a CIS degree program which apply to networking: With the exception of Scheme (yuck) and patience (yuck), I learned everything on that list long before I graduated high school. I understand many others didn't have the opportunities or interests I did, but it's hardly necessary to major in CS to understand basic data structures, logical processes, and a few useful Unix skills. A CS degree (or other BS) may be useful to some who have no other means of learning. However, I can't agree that it's the best way of obtaining that knowledge, or that it gives you any immediate way to apply that knowledge. Likewise, a cert doesn't demonstrate knowledge, it demonstrates a particular skill. Obviously, the best engineer will be one with knowledge and skills. Plus, when you are in the labs, and if you have the slightest bit of geek curiosity, the mind wanders and you inevitably have to find out how everything is connected. Luckily the curiosity blossomed from there. I was a unix hack until I got to college; I made the mistake of mouthing off to the network guru (hi cvk!) about the school's network, and got a rapid and thorough education about all the useful stuff that my professors weren't teaching. I was hooked. S
Re: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?
In the immortal words of Paul Vixie ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): The trouble is, often times I'd rather hire the world's smartest garbage man. I never forget that when I got done interviewing for my first full time programming job I went back to my job fixing cars and pumping gas, and my fallback plan in case programming didn't work out was driving a tow truck (which paid better than either.) *blink* You are the second person to tell me this story, almost word-for-word verbatim, including the detail about the tow trucks. The first person was Eugene Kashpureff. (Indeed, Alternic, Inc. was actually a d/b/a identify of his towing company.) It's a small, and very strange world. -n [EMAIL PROTECTED] Transported to a surreal landscape, a young girl kills the first woman she meets and then teams up with three complete stangers to kill again. (-- TV listing for the movie, The Wizard of Oz, in the Marin Paper.) http://blank.org/memory/
Re: Certification or College degrees?
A highly skilled gay is *VERY* different than a highly skilled guy... :-) Apologies, I just couldn't restrain myself. scott On Thu, 23 May 2002, Andy Dills wrote: : On Thu, 23 May 2002, Alexei Roudnev wrote: : : : CCIE just come and say _gays, you need Cisco XXX with IOS YY.YY and configure CEF, : snip : If people want a narrow edicated engineer, they need CCIE-only gay. If they weant : snip : Btw, a friend of mine, very (VERY) high skilled gay, is looking for the new job : snip : except _gay can read a books and can learn to answer a questions_. : snip : : I know you're not a native speaker, but that doesn't make this any less : hilarious. : : Andy : : : Andy Dills 301-682-9972 : Xecunet, LLCwww.xecu.net : : Dialup * Webhosting * E-Commerce * High-Speed Access : :
RE: Certification or College degrees?
Gee. I've know some CCIE's who seemed a little sexually ambiguous, but I'm not sure that a sweeping generalization is appropriate... :) - Daniel Golding -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Alexei Roudnev Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 11:52 AM To: Vadim Antonov; Stephen Sprunk Cc: Nanog List Subject: Re: Certification or College degrees? On Wed, 22 May 2002, Stephen Sprunk wrote: Thus spake Nigel Clarke [EMAIL PROTECTED] Certifications are a waste of time. You'd be better off obtaining a Computer Science degree and focusing on the core technologies. If you're looking to write software, sure. A CompSci degree won't help you in the slightest at operating networks. Stephen - I bet I can do networks much much better than most cisco CCIEs, even after years of doing network-unrelated work :) That's because I understand _why_ the stuff is working, not only how to make cisco box to jump through hoops. Yes, but after you'll read a few books when you start working as a network engineer again (if -:)). CCIE just come and say _gays, you need Cisco XXX with IOS YY.YY and configure CEF, RED, packet inspection, bla bla bla... and he remember exact IOS commands. If people want a narrow edicated engineer, they need CCIE-only gay. If they weant someone who can do everything (may be, with extra time to learn specific piece of hardware) - they need someone like Vadim. And CCIE is not a good example - it's the BEST certification degree I ever know; other certifications are much worst - most of them are just _guess an answer_ tests. Of course, knowing _top change a domain, you need to reinstall the system_ (from some old MS exam) is very important one (because no one can guess an answer). Btw, a friend of mine, very (VERY) high skilled gay, is looking for the new job today. When I told about him with someone, I always explain _he worked with MS and CISCO for a 10 years; he teach Microsoft in Moscow, he designed a networks, he worked as a PS for a 2 years, he bring Ascends into the Russia, he know Everything about MS and Cisco. Oh, you need his credentials - btw, he is CCIE and MS certified engineer. I never start from certificates, because they say nothing except _gay can read a books and can learn to answer a questions_. (Do you need jobless CCIE + MS certified _do not remember who_? You can hire one just now).
Re: Certification or College degrees?
A highly skilled gay is *VERY* different than a highly skilled guy... :-) not at work
Re: Certification or College degrees?
On Wed, 22 May 2002, Stephen Sprunk wrote: Thus spake Stephen Kowalchuk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Certification in the IT industry has become a nightmare because people who are less than clueful have abused it in the hiring and compensation processes. Picture yourself as a job-seeker three years ago. Every recruiter you call hangs up on you because you don't have a CCNA. What's the obvious conclusion? CCNA == job. Try getting an accounting job without being a CPA; it's possible in some states, but it's not easy. Your analogy is flawed. You have to be certified by the local bar association to practice law in most states, and unless I'm mistaken (and I might be) you have to have taken the CPA test and be certified as a CPA, because the government says so. -- Steve Sobol, CTO (Server Guru, Network Janitor and Head Geek) JustThe.net LLC, Mentor On The Lake, OH 888.480.4NET http://JustThe.net In a 32-bit world, you're a 2-bit user/You've got your own newsgroup: alt.total.loser - Weird Al Yankovic, It's All About the Pentiums
RE: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?
What you have to remember is that having a degree or certification allows the non-clue full out in the 'real' world to easily tell the difference between you and say, the world's smartest garbage man. Of course, the upside to that is, you will only wind up working in places with a high enough clue level to understand your value, hence you will be happier... Anyplace that is going to exclude you for a lack of paper, wouldn't appreciate you for your talents anyway. (in my experience)... As far as 'degrees mean you are capable of 'sticking with' something', I would think that a look at someone's employment history for the last 10 years or so would indicate that MUCH better than 4 years of sitting through outdated lectures... If your resume shows more than 4 jobs in the last 3 years (and you didn't get laid off), what does THAT stay about your ability to 'stick with' something? Yours in Networking, Paul A Flores -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Christopher J. Wolff Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 13:16 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems? I would add to that statement: Requiring a technology certification is equally as obsurd. I've been told I could pass the Emperor-Level CCIE test; however, I do not believe it will add more value for my customers. Regards, Christopher J. Wolff, VP CIO Broadband Laboratories http://www.bblabs.com Andrew Dorsett said: *jumping on my soap box* I have to say that the idea of requiring a degree for the IT industry is obsurd.
Re: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?
On Wed, May 22, 2002 at 11:16:24AM -0700, Christopher J. Wolff wrote: I would add to that statement: Requiring a technology certification is equally as obsurd. I think you mean absurd, a word you should have heard a lot by now. I've been told I could pass the Emperor-Level CCIE test; Emperor-Level CCIE? I don't even know where to go with that one. however, I do not believe it will add more value for my customers. Certifications exist to help those without the knowledge to verify for themselves decide if you have clue or if you are just bullshitting. Yes I have seen people with CCIEs who could barely route their way out of a paper bag, and I have seen people with no certifications who are more useful than 100 CCIEs put together. But as a whole, the system works fairly well, or companies would not put weight in Cisco certifications. They can also do a good job telling us the difference between someone who runs an actual network, vs say a hosting company located in a closet next to a legacy Global Crossing access pop in Tucson AZ, where they have a DS3 yet claim to have a national OC192 network, and who steals graphics from reputable companies like GX, EXDS, and CSCO. http://www.bblabs.com/highspeed.htm http://www.bblabs.com/data_center_picture.html http://www.bblabs.com/dedicated_server.htm -- Richard A Steenbergen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.e-gerbil.net/ras PGP Key ID: 0x138EA177 (67 29 D7 BC E8 18 3E DA B2 46 B3 D8 14 36 FE B6)
Re: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?
I once dared to require candidates to submit written answers to three essay questions (200 to 300 words), along with their applications. The questions were about the technical subject, but the purpose in asking was to see if they could spell, and write in complete sentences. We did a formal analysis of the job beforehand, and decided that the ability to _write English_ was foremost, even ahead of the specific technical skills the job also required. This person dealt with a large community of people via email. (DNS top-level hostmaster for a large company.) We got a good guy. He's still there. When I see a resume with more degrees than a thermometer, but even minor spelling, punctuation, or other such errors, I throw it out. Meticulous attention to detail matters a lot in this business.
RE: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?
While the effectiveness of degree requirements may be argued, they are efficient. When your HR department gets hundreds or thousands of applications, they need some way to find the wheat. The net sector is young and was mostly immune to traditional business practices. Not all traditional business practices are bad (see dot.bomb). Lack of business acumen means the days of six figure income and significant stock options because there were 10 job openings for every geek who could RTFM are over. Even though the job market is coming back there's still 20 'techies' in Birkenstocks and Star Wars t-shirts for every (decent) job hiring. Everything else being equal (which is often the case) a cert or degree is a great tie-breaker. Welcome to the traditional job market fellow geeks. Remember all the jokes about Sanitation Engineers? ;) Put another way, when you take that expensive car of yours in for service (you do have one if you're successful in this industry, right? ;) ), do you go to Joe's Garage (apologies to all named Joe) or a dealer/service center with certified mechanics? Just my 2¢. The delete key is your friend. Best regards, _ Alan Rowland (BS in Business and Management, UofM, 1990 no warranty expressed or implied, use at your own risk, may be terminated at any time without notice -Original Message- From: Christopher J. Wolff [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 11:16 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems? I would add to that statement: Requiring a technology certification is equally as obsurd. I've been told I could pass the Emperor-Level CCIE test; however, I do not believe it will add more value for my customers. Regards, Christopher J. Wolff, VP CIO Broadband Laboratories http://www.bblabs.com Andrew Dorsett said: *jumping on my soap box* I have to say that the idea of requiring a degree for the IT industry is obsurd.
RE: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?
Hey now, leave joe's garage out of this and stick to church oriented activities. While your at it have a donut. now does that give away my age heh On Wed, 22 May 2002, Rowland, Alan D wrote: While the effectiveness of degree requirements may be argued, they are efficient. When your HR department gets hundreds or thousands of applications, they need some way to find the wheat. The net sector is young and was mostly immune to traditional business practices. Not all traditional business practices are bad (see dot.bomb). Lack of business acumen means the days of six figure income and significant stock options because there were 10 job openings for every geek who could RTFM are over. Even though the job market is coming back there's still 20 'techies' in Birkenstocks and Star Wars t-shirts for every (decent) job hiring. Everything else being equal (which is often the case) a cert or degree is a great tie-breaker. Welcome to the traditional job market fellow geeks. Remember all the jokes about Sanitation Engineers? ;) Put another way, when you take that expensive car of yours in for service (you do have one if you're successful in this industry, right? ;) ), do you go to Joe's Garage (apologies to all named Joe) or a dealer/service center with certified mechanics? Just my 2¢. The delete key is your friend. Best regards, _ Alan Rowland (BS in Business and Management, UofM, 1990 no warranty expressed or implied, use at your own risk, may be terminated at any time without notice -Original Message- From: Christopher J. Wolff [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 11:16 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems? I would add to that statement: Requiring a technology certification is equally as obsurd. I've been told I could pass the Emperor-Level CCIE test; however, I do not believe it will add more value for my customers. Regards, Christopher J. Wolff, VP CIO Broadband Laboratories http://www.bblabs.com Andrew Dorsett said: *jumping on my soap box* I have to say that the idea of requiring a degree for the IT industry is obsurd.
RE: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?
On Wed, 22 May 2002, Rowland, Alan D wrote: Put another way, when you take that expensive car of yours in for service (you do have one if you're successful in this industry, right? ;) ), do you go to Joe's Garage (apologies to all named Joe) or a dealer/service center with certified mechanics? I hope everyone knows by now to avoid dealer service centers. They are the biggest and shadiest scam operations ever. Personally, I go to the garage with the best reputation -- not the one with the most certifications. Certifications != honest or even competent -Dan -- [-] Omae no subete no kichi wa ore no mono da. [-]
RE: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?
Alan, Thank you for the objective response. It seems that there is room for multiple perspectives on this topic. I take my new volvo to the local equivalent of Joe's Garage for regular (3000 mile) service. Joe is not volvo certified, but they do let me watch over their shoulder to make sure everything is perfect. The service is a fraction of the cost. If there was a mistake in service, they only ask for their cost for the parts to rectify the mistake (This is the 6th car that I've taken to Joe's Garage.) However I do take the car to Volvo for the 3 mile service interval (which, in fact, contains no service, only diagnostics). If Volvo finds a problem, I'll take it back to Joe's Garage for the actual repair. I see your perspective on the HR department. HR probably deals with dozens of applicants and the certification is an easy pass/fail evaluation method. However, IMHO, there are probably many expertly qualified candidates that have no paper but are more qualified than the paper CCNA. Regards, Christopher J. Wolff, VP CIO Broadband Laboratories http://www.bblabs.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Rowland, Alan D Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 12:00 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems? While the effectiveness of degree requirements may be argued, they are efficient. When your HR department gets hundreds or thousands of applications, they need some way to find the wheat. The net sector is young and was mostly immune to traditional business practices. Not all traditional business practices are bad (see dot.bomb). Lack of business acumen means the days of six figure income and significant stock options because there were 10 job openings for every geek who could RTFM are over. Even though the job market is coming back there's still 20 'techies' in Birkenstocks and Star Wars t-shirts for every (decent) job hiring. Everything else being equal (which is often the case) a cert or degree is a great tie-breaker. Welcome to the traditional job market fellow geeks. Remember all the jokes about Sanitation Engineers? ;) Put another way, when you take that expensive car of yours in for service (you do have one if you're successful in this industry, right? ;) ), do you go to Joe's Garage (apologies to all named Joe) or a dealer/service center with certified mechanics? Just my 2¢. The delete key is your friend. Best regards, _ Alan Rowland (BS in Business and Management, UofM, 1990 no warranty expressed or implied, use at your own risk, may be terminated at any time without notice -Original Message- From: Christopher J. Wolff [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 11:16 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems? I would add to that statement: Requiring a technology certification is equally as obsurd. I've been told I could pass the Emperor-Level CCIE test; however, I do not believe it will add more value for my customers. Regards, Christopher J. Wolff, VP CIO Broadband Laboratories http://www.bblabs.com Andrew Dorsett said: *jumping on my soap box* I have to say that the idea of requiring a degree for the IT industry is obsurd.
Re: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?
My two cents: From what I have found most colleges in the area of the world that I am in (New England) focus their BCS studies on programing. Completely unrelated to the area of anything network related. This may not be the case everywhere. Maybe the industry leaders should assist the education scene in developing a degree program for future network engineers that beter prepares them for this field. It doesn't help the industry if a bunch of programers are running around acting like network engineers, just as a bunch of network engineers are no more qualified to program. Perhaps a bachelors in network engineering is in order? Kristian P. Jackson, CCNP
RE: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?
Stoned koalas drooled eucalyptus spit in awe as Christopher J. Wolff exclaimed: I take my new volvo to the local equivalent of Joe's Garage for regular (3000 mile) service. Joe is not volvo certified, but they do let me watch over their shoulder to make sure everything is perfect. The service is a fraction of the cost. If there was a mistake in service, they only ask for their cost for the parts to rectify the mistake (This is the 6th car that I've taken to Joe's Garage.) However I do take the car to Volvo for the 3 mile service interval (which, in fact, contains no service, only diagnostics). If Volvo finds a problem, I'll take it back to Joe's Garage for the actual repair. How do I configure my Volvo for BGP? *ducks* -Jeff -- Jeff Workman | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.pimpworks.org
RE: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?
It's easy, just replace your ICU with a RSP8 :) Regards, Christopher J. Wolff, VP CIO Broadband Laboratories http://www.bblabs.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Jeff Workman Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 1:38 PM To: Christopher J. Wolff; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems? Stoned koalas drooled eucalyptus spit in awe as Christopher J. Wolff exclaimed: I take my new volvo to the local equivalent of Joe's Garage for regular (3000 mile) service. Joe is not volvo certified, but they do let me watch over their shoulder to make sure everything is perfect. The service is a fraction of the cost. If there was a mistake in service, they only ask for their cost for the parts to rectify the mistake (This is the 6th car that I've taken to Joe's Garage.) However I do take the car to Volvo for the 3 mile service interval (which, in fact, contains no service, only diagnostics). If Volvo finds a problem, I'll take it back to Joe's Garage for the actual repair. How do I configure my Volvo for BGP? *ducks* -Jeff -- Jeff Workman | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.pimpworks.org
Re: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?
On Wed, 22 May 2002 16:40:27 -0400 Kristian P. Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: network engineers, just as a bunch of network engineers are no more qualified to program. Perhaps a bachelors in network engineering is in order? We actually have that - or something close to it. We are slowly building a bigger networking lab with router-ish stuff for students to learn from. In fact, I'll be handing off full BGP table for them to see and play with in the lab. If you want to help us educate, we'll gladly accept any donations, particularly gear, we can get. :-) http://www.cs.depaul.edu/programs/2002/BachelorNT2002.asp http://ipdweb.cs.depaul.edu/programs/lan/index.html http://condor.depaul.edu/~jkristof/tdc375/ http://condor.depaul.edu/~jkristof/2001Spr365/ John
RE: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?
Not to toot the horn of my Alma Mater too much, but Ohio University's Communication Systems Management program (www.csm.ohiou.edu) is also along the lines of a network engineering degree. It also focus on other aspects of the industry (regulation, comm theory, security, etc) but they all sort of flow together. They were just getting into more hands on networking labs when I graduated, I am sure they have greatly improved since then. Mike -Original Message- From: John Kristoff [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 3:52 PM Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems? On Wed, 22 May 2002 16:40:27 -0400 Kristian P. Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: network engineers, just as a bunch of network engineers are no more qualified to program. Perhaps a bachelors in network engineering is in order? We actually have that - or something close to it. We are slowly building a bigger networking lab with router-ish stuff for students to learn from. In fact, I'll be handing off full BGP table for them to see and play with in the lab. If you want to help us educate, we'll gladly accept any donations, particularly gear, we can get. :-) http://www.cs.depaul.edu/programs/2002/BachelorNT2002.asp http://ipdweb.cs.depaul.edu/programs/lan/index.html http://condor.depaul.edu/~jkristof/tdc375/ http://condor.depaul.edu/~jkristof/2001Spr365/ John
Re: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?
Also sounds a lot like Texas AM University's Telecommunications Engineering Technology degree. (Yes, it says Engineering Technology. No, it's not a two year associates degree.) It's currently rich on voice communications networks, but is picking up tremendously on data communications. http://etidweb.tamu.edu/telecomm/tel_index.html On Wed, 22 May 2002, Pistone, Mike wrote: Not to toot the horn of my Alma Mater too much, but Ohio University's Communication Systems Management program (www.csm.ohiou.edu) is also along the lines of a network engineering degree. It also focus on other aspects of the industry (regulation, comm theory, security, etc) but they all sort of flow together. They were just getting into more hands on networking labs when I graduated, I am sure they have greatly improved since then. Mike -Original Message- From: John Kristoff [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 3:52 PM Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems? On Wed, 22 May 2002 16:40:27 -0400 Kristian P. Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: network engineers, just as a bunch of network engineers are no more qualified to program. Perhaps a bachelors in network engineering is in order? We actually have that - or something close to it. We are slowly building a bigger networking lab with router-ish stuff for students to learn from. In fact, I'll be handing off full BGP table for them to see and play with in the lab. If you want to help us educate, we'll gladly accept any donations, particularly gear, we can get. :-) http://www.cs.depaul.edu/programs/2002/BachelorNT2002.asp http://ipdweb.cs.depaul.edu/programs/lan/index.html http://condor.depaul.edu/~jkristof/tdc375/ http://condor.depaul.edu/~jkristof/2001Spr365/ John -- /- Marius Strom | Always carry a short length of fibre-optic cable. Professional Geek | If you get lost, then you can drop it on the System/Network Admin | ground, wait 10 minutes, and ask the backhoe http://www.marius.org/ | operator how to get back to civilization. \-| Alan Frame |--
Re: Certification or College degrees?
Speaking as someone who is currently in a degree program in information science for a major university -- Certification in the IT industry has become a nightmare because people who are less than clueful have abused it in the hiring and compensation processes. While it would be absurd to hire a professional engineer (say, to build a skyscraper or a bridge) without verifiable professional credentials, and there are significant social penalties for people attempting to pass themselves off as professional engineers (or doctors, or lawyers, etc.), there are no such penalities for IT personnel. And industry certification is the worst of these offenders. Cisco, Microsoft and Novell (among others) have effectively created long-standing revenue streams out of the ridiculous complexity of their products. Some of that complexity is justified, without question. And some of it is deliberate to drive the need for certified professionals. A vicious cycle -- these professionals pay exhorbitant fees for 3-day or 5-day drench sessions where they come away with 1% retention and must be hired shortly thereafter to actually use anything they retained. Their expectation: high pay rates and a career track. In reality, the people who pay for these certifications are the end users of the products. The companies who send people to be trained, or expend more money for salaries. However, they are typically buying a pig in a poke. They could no better evaluate what certifications are necessary, and in what contexts, than I could evaluate the quality of an engineer to build my bridge or skyscraper. Thus, the IT industry is incentized to produce more certification programs which produce marginally less utility; the smart business is less incentized to pay for it, and the less-smart business is apt to pay for it a couple times, til they get stung enough that they decide it's not worth it and outsource; and the certificate-holder is less-inclined to pad his or her resume with useless paper. The system is broken. Like a drunk bobbing down a blind alley, businesses will bounce back and forth between outsourcing the kitchen sink and bringing it back in-house, all in an effort to cut the cost of IT as a corporate resource and maximize its value which (contrary to the folks that like to assign metrics to everything) is foggy at best. The smart will get smarter, and the not-so-smart will get the shaft. Either way, the IT industry will milk it til there is no money in it, then move on. The cerificate-holder will be left with a lot of paper and marginally less social legitimacy out of it. I mean, I was a Merit Scholar Finalist in high school. Who the hell cares. Unlike a university education, which has a certain amount of staying power, the value of industry certifications is fleeting. Unfortunately, there are two forces at work that will keep industry certification in this state: (1) the tendency for private companies to create their products in ways that bastardize open standards and create complex, proprietary systems in order to keep up barriers to competition; (2) the tendency for proprietary systems to have relatively short lifecycles, and for standards and practices to consolidate as time progresses. The value afforded a university education is in its universality. A bridge engineer can build bridges out of concrete or cable, depending on what's called for. If I were a Microsoft bridge builder, I know how to build bridges using Microsoft concrete and Microsoft cable, but unless it's all the same stuff I cannot apply my bridge-building skills to non-Microsoft venues. The narrow scope of industry certification will be its undoing, unless one can create industry certifications that exemplify industry-wide best practices. From my extremely limited perspective, it looks like Cisco does this, but I have never taken a Cisco class so I cannot comment with authority. Anyone? Richard A Steenbergen wrote: Certifications exist to help those without the knowledge ...
Re: Certification or College degrees?
IMO: Certifications are a waste of time. You'd be better off obtaining a Computer Science degree and focusing on the core technologies. Why would you devote your career to learning a vendor's command line or IOS? Cisco has done an excellent job @ brainwashing the IT community. The have (unfortunately) set the standard for Network Engineers. What do you think is more respected, a masters degree in Networking Engineering or a CCIE. In most circles it would be the latter. Cisco's certification program has effected the entire IT community. Their CCIE's are required to recertify every few years, thus forcing them to stay true to the Cisco lifestyle. I've met some CCIE's who don't know any programming languages or any experience with Unix. It's clear that they are one dimensional and unfocused. Why study the same thing over and over? Do you really have X amount of years experience, or do you have 1 years experience X times? Think about it. If you have been in the field for over 5 years and someone new to the industry by way of certification can handle your work load, that is a serious problem. If anything certs should be used as a stepping stone or advancement to new technologies or areas. Then again, the question of CERTS vs. DEGREES might apply differently to someone without any experience. I guess it really depends on what your looking for. --- Nigel Clarke Network Security Engineer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Certification or College degrees?
On Wed, 22 May 2002, Nigel Clarke wrote: What do you think is more respected, a masters degree in Networking Engineering or a CCIE. In most One of my arguments is that this doesn't exist but at a FEW schools around the world and only at the MS level. I've been looking for a network engineering program because personally I don't see myself being required to design a processor, as long as I know how it behaves and operates. Sure some believe its required to know how to build a processor and I think its really cool (Yes I do know) but to some this is not important because they will never be required to build one. This would be the perfect curriculum. I know Valdis is from VT, so I hope he's listening. Why couldn't we as a networking community sit down and come up with a degree program that goes from BS to PhD? Sure it can touch on basic programming and basic processor design, but it would be more heavily weighted towards utilizing technologies on the market and creating solutions to the common programs. It could be a mix between the CCIE, Net+, etc. Because I know my Comp Engineering program doesn't touch on anything related at all to networking, and never even mentions the idea of security. So why not create a focused area for this? - Andrew --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.andrewsworld.net/ ICQ: 2895251 Cisco Certified Network Associate Learn from the mistakes of others. You won't live long enough to make all of them yourself.
Re: Certification or College degrees?
I see ucsd extension offers a communication engineering cert, which altho a cert is not vendor specific. Seems to deal with typical hi level EE stuff, and offers a shot to get into their masters program. Bri On Wed, 22 May 2002, Andrew Dorsett wrote: On Wed, 22 May 2002, Nigel Clarke wrote: What do you think is more respected, a masters degree in Networking Engineering or a CCIE. In most One of my arguments is that this doesn't exist but at a FEW schools around the world and only at the MS level. I've been looking for a network engineering program because personally I don't see myself being required to design a processor, as long as I know how it behaves and operates. Sure some believe its required to know how to build a processor and I think its really cool (Yes I do know) but to some this is not important because they will never be required to build one. This would be the perfect curriculum. I know Valdis is from VT, so I hope he's listening. Why couldn't we as a networking community sit down and come up with a degree program that goes from BS to PhD? Sure it can touch on basic programming and basic processor design, but it would be more heavily weighted towards utilizing technologies on the market and creating solutions to the common programs. It could be a mix between the CCIE, Net+, etc. Because I know my Comp Engineering program doesn't touch on anything related at all to networking, and never even mentions the idea of security. So why not create a focused area for this? - Andrew --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.andrewsworld.net/ ICQ: 2895251 Cisco Certified Network Associate Learn from the mistakes of others. You won't live long enough to make all of them yourself.
Re: Certification or College degrees?
On Wed, 22 May 2002, Brian wrote: I see ucsd extension offers a communication engineering cert, which altho a cert is not vendor specific. Seems to deal with typical hi level EE stuff, and offers a shot to get into their masters program. Exactly! It is high level EE stuff. That's not the same thing. It's the engineering method of making a round peg fit in a triangular hole. Andrew --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.andrewsworld.net/ ICQ: 2895251 Cisco Certified Network Associate Learn from the mistakes of others. You won't live long enough to make all of them yourself.
Re: Certification or College degrees?
if i was to take a newbie, i would much rather hire someone who has taken algorithms and data structures, queuing, ... than someone who has spent their time studying for whatever juniper and cisco call their vendor certifications. one can teach a monkey how to hack a router, as is demonstrated on a daily basis. but a little computer science goes a much longer way. randy
Re: Certification or College degrees?
In a message written on Wed, May 22, 2002 at 06:37:35PM -0400, Nigel Clarke wrote: Why would you devote your career to learning a vendor's command line or IOS? Selling your soul to a vendor is not always a bad decision. It happens in all industries as well. If the vendor is popular, there will always be people willing to pay for detailed experience with that vendor, or for esoteric knowledge about that vendor. Cisco has done an excellent job @ brainwashing the IT community. The have (unfortunately) set the standard for Network Engineers. I'm biased, see .sig, but having been through the process, and seen what other vendors (eg, Microsoft, Novell) do with their programs I do believe that Cisco wants their certifications to mean something. No, that doesn't mean everyone who is certified is an expert. It does mean the odds that someone with a Cisco certification knows something are probably an order of magnitude better than a Microsoft certified person. What do you think is more respected, a masters degree in Networking Engineering or a CCIE. In most circles it would be the latter. What I really want to address is that you don't get something like a CCIE for the respect. Believe me, I don't get any for having it. When I got it, I was a consultant. The reality was if I had a CCIE my employer could bill me at a significantly higher rate, some of which they passed on to me. Why did people pay these rates? The answer was simple, they had better odds of getting someone good. These people would go through 4-5 Network Engineers, get frustrated because they really and truly didn't know anything, they would then pay for a CCIE and, more often than not, be happy. I really don't think Cisco is better or worse than other industries. Are all ASE Certified Master Mechanics people you want working on your car? No. Are there some non-certified mechanics who could run circles around the certified ones? Of course. That said, your odds are much better that your car will run again if you have a certified mechanic. Many have said business is simply risk management, and certifications are a way of managing that risk. -- Leo Bicknell - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - CCIE 3440 PGP keys at http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/ Read TMBG List - [EMAIL PROTECTED], www.tmbg.org
Re: Certification or College degrees?
Thus spake Nigel Clarke [EMAIL PROTECTED] Certifications are a waste of time. You'd be better off obtaining a Computer Science degree and focusing on the core technologies. If you're looking to write software, sure. A CompSci degree won't help you in the slightest at operating networks. Why would you devote your career to learning a vendor's command line or IOS? You don't. You devote your career to learning networking. IOS is a base skill which is necessary (today) to utilize that knowledge and, more importantly, get a job. A person with lots of knowledge and no skills is a liberal arts major, not an engineer. Cisco has done an excellent job @ brainwashing the IT community. The have (unfortunately) set the standard for Network Engineers. What do you think is more respected, a masters degree in Networking Engineering or a CCIE. In most circles it would be the latter. In the academic community, the former. In the professional community, the latter. Academic respect doesn't pay the bills. Cisco's certification program has effected the entire IT community. Their CCIE's are required to recertify every few years, thus forcing them to stay true to the Cisco lifestyle. No, they're required to stay knowledgeable with current technical advances in the field. That's hardly unreasonable. I've met some CCIE's who don't know any programming languages or any experience with Unix. It's clear that they are one dimensional and unfocused. Unfocused? People with a single skill set are usually considered highly focused. Now, I find that folks with Unix experience tend to make better networkers, but it's hardly a required skill. Why study the same thing over and over? Do you really have X amount of years experience, or do you have 1 years experience X times? Think about it. If you have been in the field for over 5 years and someone new to the industry by way of certification can handle your work load, that is a serious problem. That's not a problem with the certification; that's a problem with your lack of initiative. I don't think I've ever done the same thing for five months, much less five years. Then again, the question of CERTS vs. DEGREES might apply differently to someone without any experience. I guess it really depends on what your looking for. Degrees are, in essence, a certificate that you are capable of learning things by rote and regurgitating them later, possibly applying a small amount of thought (but not too much). In most industries, that's a highly valuable thing to know, and businesses hire college grads with the assumption they'll spend the first year doing little but training them to do useful work. The IT industry does not have the patience or luxury of hiring a completely cluess college grad, sending them to the dozens of required classes, giving them a mentor to help them with their first year of work, etc. People want someone who can solve the problem today, period. Certifications are a crude but often effective means for non-technical people to determine if technical people meet their needs. S
Re: Certification or College degrees?
Nigel, I think you are confusing software engineers with network engineers. As a rule of thumb, software / applications writers rarely understand how networks really work, in the same way that network engineers rarely understand how software / applications really work. IMHO, there is no mandatory reason a network engineer has to know a programming language, in the same way there's no mandatory reason that a top software engineer has to be able to configure a Cisco router. People who grok both worlds are critical for companies that are writing software that touches networks, and in general such people are versatile and valuable. But the real trick is getting a team of all three types to complement each other, not hiring a single skill / mindset. You also seem not to like Cisco for some reason. Perhaps this is why you have never looked at the curriculum for CCIE. It does require you to know the Cisco CLI, but that is to show you can correctly implement the solutions you devise -- a very practical consideration for someone purporting to be a network engineer. Knowing how to devise those solutions is the major focus of CCIE, not memorizing the Cisco CLI. You could equally translate the learned knowledge to, say, Juniper CLI. Finally, trying to paint re-certification in a very fast-moving industry as some kind of conspiracy is a real stretch. The title of this thread is part of the problem: certification or degrees, as if they are mutually exclusive. Cheers, Mathew At 06:37 PM 5/22/2002 -0400, Nigel Clarke wrote: IMO: Certifications are a waste of time. You'd be better off obtaining a Computer Science degree and focusing on the core technologies. Why would you devote your career to learning a vendor's command line or IOS? Cisco has done an excellent job @ brainwashing the IT community. The have (unfortunately) set the standard for Network Engineers. What do you think is more respected, a masters degree in Networking Engineering or a CCIE. In most circles it would be the latter. Cisco's certification program has effected the entire IT community. Their CCIE's are required to recertify every few years, thus forcing them to stay true to the Cisco lifestyle. I've met some CCIE's who don't know any programming languages or any experience with Unix. It's clear that they are one dimensional and unfocused. Why study the same thing over and over? Do you really have X amount of years experience, or do you have 1 years experience X times? Think about it. If you have been in the field for over 5 years and someone new to the industry by way of certification can handle your work load, that is a serious problem. If anything certs should be used as a stepping stone or advancement to new technologies or areas. Then again, the question of CERTS vs. DEGREES might apply differently to someone without any experience. I guess it really depends on what your looking for. --- Nigel Clarke Network Security Engineer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Certification or College degrees?
Computer science does enforce critical thinking skills, which are a very necessary part of any successful engineer's toolbox. Bri On Wed, 22 May 2002, Mathew Lodge wrote: Nigel, I think you are confusing software engineers with network engineers. As a rule of thumb, software / applications writers rarely understand how networks really work, in the same way that network engineers rarely understand how software / applications really work. IMHO, there is no mandatory reason a network engineer has to know a programming language, in the same way there's no mandatory reason that a top software engineer has to be able to configure a Cisco router. People who grok both worlds are critical for companies that are writing software that touches networks, and in general such people are versatile and valuable. But the real trick is getting a team of all three types to complement each other, not hiring a single skill / mindset. You also seem not to like Cisco for some reason. Perhaps this is why you have never looked at the curriculum for CCIE. It does require you to know the Cisco CLI, but that is to show you can correctly implement the solutions you devise -- a very practical consideration for someone purporting to be a network engineer. Knowing how to devise those solutions is the major focus of CCIE, not memorizing the Cisco CLI. You could equally translate the learned knowledge to, say, Juniper CLI. Finally, trying to paint re-certification in a very fast-moving industry as some kind of conspiracy is a real stretch. The title of this thread is part of the problem: certification or degrees, as if they are mutually exclusive. Cheers, Mathew At 06:37 PM 5/22/2002 -0400, Nigel Clarke wrote: IMO: Certifications are a waste of time. You'd be better off obtaining a Computer Science degree and focusing on the core technologies. Why would you devote your career to learning a vendor's command line or IOS? Cisco has done an excellent job @ brainwashing the IT community. The have (unfortunately) set the standard for Network Engineers. What do you think is more respected, a masters degree in Networking Engineering or a CCIE. In most circles it would be the latter. Cisco's certification program has effected the entire IT community. Their CCIE's are required to recertify every few years, thus forcing them to stay true to the Cisco lifestyle. I've met some CCIE's who don't know any programming languages or any experience with Unix. It's clear that they are one dimensional and unfocused. Why study the same thing over and over? Do you really have X amount of years experience, or do you have 1 years experience X times? Think about it. If you have been in the field for over 5 years and someone new to the industry by way of certification can handle your work load, that is a serious problem. If anything certs should be used as a stepping stone or advancement to new technologies or areas. Then again, the question of CERTS vs. DEGREES might apply differently to someone without any experience. I guess it really depends on what your looking for. --- Nigel Clarke Network Security Engineer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Certification or College degrees?
Thus spake Stephen Kowalchuk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Certification in the IT industry has become a nightmare because people who are less than clueful have abused it in the hiring and compensation processes. Picture yourself as a job-seeker three years ago. Every recruiter you call hangs up on you because you don't have a CCNA. What's the obvious conclusion? CCNA == job. Try getting an accounting job without being a CPA; it's possible in some states, but it's not easy. And industry certification is the worst of these offenders. Cisco, Microsoft and Novell (among others) have effectively created long-standing revenue streams out of the ridiculous complexity of their products. Some of that complexity is justified, without question. And some of it is deliberate to drive the need for certified professionals. Perhaps Microsoft or Novell has done that, I can't speak to their practices. Cisco only created its certification programs at the request of customers. I've also never seen any evidence whatsoever that Cisco intentionally makes it products difficult to learn or use. If they end up that way, it's usually budgetary or time constraints. A vicious cycle -- these professionals pay exhorbitant fees for 3-day or 5-day drench sessions where they come away with 1% retention and must be hired shortly thereafter to actually use anything they retained. Their expectation: high pay rates and a career track. Seems like they're getting suckered by the training community (not Cisco, which doesn't do training). The smart will get smarter, and the not-so-smart will get the shaft. Either way, the IT industry will milk it til there is no money in it, then move on. The cerificate-holder will be left with a lot of paper and marginally less social legitimacy out of it. I think P.T. Barnum had something to say about that. (1) the tendency for private companies to create their products in ways that bastardize open standards and create complex, proprietary systems in order to keep up barriers to competition; What is one person's barrier to competition is another's first-to-market advantage or value-add. Standards committees are slow and the results often suck. If you built a router that only implemented RFCs in Standard status, you'd be about 10 years in the past on features, wouldn't interoperate with anyone on the market, and probably wouldn't sell a single unit. Is that the other vendors' fault? If I were a Microsoft bridge builder, I know how to build bridges using Microsoft concrete and Microsoft cable, but unless it's all the same stuff I cannot apply my bridge- building skills to non-Microsoft venues. It's interesting to note which industries use interchangeable products that provide uniform functionality vs. which use highly specialized proprietary systems. It's also interesting to observe the economic impacts to customers in each industry type. If you want uniform products across all vendors, that means you're going to get the lowest common denominator, and most of the gotta have features your favorite vendor has implemented will go away. Your entire business model might evaporate if it's based on one of these non-standard features. The narrow scope of industry certification will be its undoing, unless one can create industry certifications that exemplify industry-wide best practices. That's the goal of the higher-level Cisco certs. The lower-level ones are purely skills-based. S
Re: Certification or College degrees?
If I have learned anything at all during the course of this recession is that you have to be diverse. Organizations are looking for individuals with a wide range of skills. This includes CCIE's. I know a few who aren't working right now. It's not due to there lack of skill or knowledge, it's there limited skill set. The story of the Cisco CCIE's will be the same as the IBM/SNA mainframe gurus. Great in their day, useless in the future. --- Nigel Clarke Network Security Engineer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?
At 01:36 PM 5/22/2002 -0500, Paul A Flores wrote: If your resume shows more than 4 jobs in the last 3 years (and you didn't get laid off), what does THAT stay about your ability to 'stick with' something? That you worked on the Internet in the late 90s? (Had to post to see if I could overtake Iljitsch van Beijnum. :-) Paul A Flores -- TTFN, patrick
Re: Certification or College degrees?
On Wed, 22 May 2002 18:29:52 -0500, Stephen Sprunk wrote: Degrees are, in essence, a certificate that you are capable of learning things by rote and regurgitating them later, possibly applying a small amount of thought (but not too much). In most industries, that's a highly valuable thing to know, and businesses hire college grads with the assumption they'll spend the first year doing little but training them to do useful work. The IT industry does not have the patience or luxury of hiring a completely cluess college grad, sending them to the dozens of required classes, giving them a mentor to help them with their first year of work, etc. People want someone who can solve the problem today, period. Certifications are a crude but often effective means for non-technical people to determine if technical people meet their needs. S If that is what you or anyone else got from obtaining a degree then you were shortchanged and are probably (understandably) bitter. But you have noone to blame but yourself either. Every consumer should count their change. Your description of learning things by rote and regurgitation is the method practiced by so many folks following your employer's certification system. That is why the system and the certified individuals are looked down upon so often. Anyone that received a cert this way was similarly shortchanged. Maybe individuals should think of degrees and certifications as tools used for the purpose of advancing through life/world/career. They are certainly not the only tools. You can have replacements or alternatives. You can (and should) supplement your toolset at different points in your life. Choose your tools carefully, use the right one(s) at the apropos time and good luck in life and career. I personally would want to accumulate as many tools as possible to give me a wide array of knowledge and options to address any particular problem/circumstance. Regards, Sharif
Re: Certification or College degrees?
On Wed, 22 May 2002 18:29:52 -0500, Stephen Sprunk wrote: Thus spake Nigel Clarke [EMAIL PROTECTED] Certifications are a waste of time. You'd be better off obtaining a Computer Science degree and focusing on the core technologies. If you're looking to write software, sure. A CompSci degree won't help you in the slightest at operating networks. Don't forget to tell all the kids that smoking doesn't cause cancer either. A CompSci degree will help one inordinately to operate a network. It is sad that so few in this field realize this. Regards, Sharif
Re: Certification or College degrees?
On Wed, 22 May 2002 18:29:52 -0500, Stephen Sprunk wrote: Thus spake Nigel Clarke [EMAIL PROTECTED] Certifications are a waste of time. You'd be better off obtaining a Computer Science degree and focusing on the core technologies. If you're looking to write software, sure. A CompSci degree won't help you in the slightest at operating networks. Don't forget to tell all the kids that smoking doesn't cause cancer either. A CompSci degree will help one inordinately to operate a network. It is sad that so few in this field realize this. Regards, Sharif
Re: Certification or College degrees?
On Wed, 22 May 2002 17:56:24 PDT, Sharif Torpis said: Don't forget to tell all the kids that smoking doesn't cause cancer either. A CompSci degree will help one inordinately to operate a network. It is sad that so few in this field realize this. Graph Theory. Routing Protocols. 'Nuff Said. ;) msg02106/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Certification or College degrees?
To start, I know a lot of people with no certifications, degrees or diplomas that can dance circles around their desired loves of networking or unix administration. They live, work and earn every penny they receive. I hold them in high esteem and thank them constantly for help they give to me. They do not need to take the tests to know about things or be known for things they have done. Living in a profession that has a large majority of male counterparts, being a female has been a bit tough. Having those pieces of paper has helped me to open a few doors. Once those doors are opened technical questions, a bit of experience and the ability to smile and laugh have kept those doors opened. The papers have helped to introduce myself, show that I may actually have the basics. Without them I am not sure I would be where I am now. Getting them were more of yearning for learning than a look I have this statement. My current manager smiled when I asked him not to tell my counter parts what I have. Certs/Degrees/Diplomas sometimes cause tension between staff that have them and staff that do not have them until everyone gets to know the person, and how they work. To me experience means a lot more. You may think this is strange but the more bugs I find the more I smile for it gives me a great opportunity to learn. To learn something that is not in the books, where it takes a feel for the device to fix it. Though the heart does pump a bit faster in these situations due to it being a production device and not a lab device. Earn the Certs, Diplomas, Degrees for yourself and not the position. The position is the partical application of what you like to do. A good HR person looks at your personality to make sure you fit the team, if you can answer the technical questions you do not need always need the paper. Kim Oh.. I should add. My first Cert was out written out of spite. A male co-worker seemed high and mighty when he passed. So I wrote it to keep him quiet. I must thank him one day. :)
Re: Certification or College degrees?
The base pre-req for this is that the person is educated to tertiary level skills in Maths. Or, are evidently bloody good for other reasons. Lets not forget that some of the people who write the systems are actually just smarter than me, and thats why they find it simpler and I find it hard. Anyway, I echo Randy. I think that you should go for people who have fundamentals like an understanding of analysis, synthesis (of ideas) and processes like introspection. And who have graph theory, numerical analysis, statistics... -George if i was to take a newbie, i would much rather hire someone who has taken algorithms and data structures, queuing, ... than someone who has spent their time studying for whatever juniper and cisco call their vendor certifications. one can teach a monkey how to hack a router, as is demonstrated on a daily basis. but a little computer science goes a much longer way. randy -- George Michaelson | APNIC Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]| PO Box 2131 Milton QLD 4064 Phone: +61 7 3858 3100 | Australia Fax: +61 7 3858 3199 | http://www.apnic.net
Re: Certification or College degrees?
On Wed, 22 May 2002 18:56:49 EDT, Andrew Dorsett [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: never be required to build one. This would be the perfect curriculum. I know Valdis is from VT, so I hope he's listening. Why I just work at VT - my BS is in mathematics, with a physics minor, Clarkson University '84. (OK, to be *really* technical, it's a math degree because there wasn't a separate CS program/degree till '86, but as a result I got zinged with a lot more calculus and related than the average CS major) my Comp Engineering program doesn't touch on anything related at all to networking, and never even mentions the idea of security. So why not create a focused area for this? Stop by and talk to me or Randy Marchany about security - he taught a grad-level class on it this semester. The biggest problem we're facing in getting a full-fledged academic program going is that most of the people who have a clue are the CIRT team, and we're all network operations and sysadmin types - Randy's the only one of us who does much teaching and lecturing. We get hit with a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem. We can't scare up enough warm bodies(*) to teach more than one or two grad-level courses a year in security. Meanwhile, the number of grad students who have enough free course slots to *take* more than one or two classes is limited, since all of the current focused areas have prerequisite lists of classes. And creating a new focused area is a challenge - it sort of presupposes having 2 or 3 PhD-level professors to teach the classes, and given that VT is currently trying to trim it's budget by $25M, it's unclear who'd pay for THAT... /Valdis (*) For some reason, the number of people who will teach a grad-level course for free is quite limited - *I* certainly won't do it for free ;) msg02110/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Certification or College degrees?
On Wed, 22 May 2002 16:40:27 -0400, Kristian P. Jackson wrote: New England) focus their BCS studies on programing. Completely unrelated to the area of anything network related. This may not be the case everywhere. Maybe the industry leaders should assist the education scene in developing a degree program for future network engineers that beter prepares them for this field. It doesn't help the industry if a bunch of programers are running around acting like network engineers, just as a bunch of network engineers are no more qualified to program. Perhaps a bachelors in network engineering is in order? I am currently studying a BSc degree in merry old England. I have just finished my second year (well I'm part way through the exams). When I applied to do my degree I found two universities whose course were anything related to Networking. Mine is called Computing (Networks and Communications). I think we've pretty much been the guinea pigs for the course and guess what, they didn't get it right first time. Our first year entailed the following modules: Business Professional Skills The Business Professional Environment Programming Mathematics for Computing Systems Analysis Design Principals of Computing Technologies Not a single one of these modules made any effort to be network related. The first two were similar and involved basic GCSE level literature stuff along with spending a whole semester pretending to run a company that made paint stripper out of pigeon excrement. Programming was a very basic grounding in C++ Maths was again GCSE level with a bit of Matrices thrown in for the Visualisation students. Systems Analysis and Design involved theorising about making computerised versions of a couple of forms for an obscure activities holiday company whilst Principals of Computing Technologies tought us how to write assembler for the 8085 chip. In year two we have done the following: Networking Technologies Unix Networking and Administration Unix, Linux and X Web Based Systems Software Development: Concepts and Methods Databases Here we are getting there, but it isn't exactly serious stuff and is the kind of thing you learn by spending your spare time fiddling about with stuff. Networking tech involved mostly installing Windows 95 systems to do peer2peer stuff and client server stuff. One experiment involved a basic Novell server install and another involved a basic Cisco router configuration. Unix Net Admin is how to add/remove accounts, file permissions and giving an adapter an ip address. Unix Linux and X is literally bash shell scripting on a server with a weird configuration. Web Based Systems, ahh yes. First semester was html and javascript. They got as far as form tags and input checking. Second semester involved being given some perl code for connecting to a database and integrating it (putting a website in front of it). SDCM is all about how Billy Bojo and Frank Redneck came up with X theory about Y. I think about 80% of our course a) didn't see the point in the subject b) didn't understand any of the teachers (it was a rarety that they could speak English anywhere near properly) and c) have failed this subject. Databases was mysql. That was fairly useful in that it went into a fair bit of depth about the commands. Third year (next year) we are all on placements yet the uni still charges £1000 for tuition fees. I don't know what we're supposed to be doing in the fourth year because all trace of our course description has been eradicated from the website. It would appear, however that the people who started their course this year have it better than us in that they are doing all the networking stuff we did this year in the first year. A list of next years networking degree is here: http://www.shu.ac.uk/schools/cms/ug/courses.html I would provide a link to the actual course but I can't be bothered looking at their javascript. If its anything like the uni network, it'll be hours of fun (took them and Novell two months to realise that all the serious login problems were due to all the computers trying to use a server that had been removed). Oh well, I hope noone from the CIS or CMS departments read this list or I might end up not coming back next year. That is just an example of how little a degree in networks might actually mean. I worked 7 months nightshift at an ISP and learned far more relevant stuff than the two years on a networking degree have taught me. Several times I have considered giving it up and looking around for industry certifications but I keep hoping that the next year will be better...though that depends on whether I can find a placement that doesn't just involve writing websites. If anyone around here knows of a decent networking related company that might offer an at least half decent placement then do let me know. It seems this kind of placement is rather sparse this year. -- O- cw, [EMAIL PROTECTED] on 23/05/2002 Part man, part monkey. Baby that's me
Re: Certification or College degrees?
On Wed, 22 May 2002 16:40:27 -0400, Kristian P. Jackson wrote: New England) focus their BCS studies on programing. Completely unrelated to the area of anything network related. This may not be the case everywhere. Maybe the industry leaders should assist the education scene in developing a degree program for future network engineers that beter prepares them for this field. It doesn't help the industry if a bunch of programers are running around acting like network engineers, just as a bunch of network engineers are no more qualified to program. Perhaps a bachelors in network engineering is in order? I am currently studying a BSc degree in merry old England. I have just finished my second year (well I'm part way through the exams). When I applied to do my degree I found two universities whose course were anything related to Networking. Mine is called Computing (Networks and Communications). I think we've pretty much been the guinea pigs for the course and guess what, they didn't get it right first time. Our first year entailed the following modules: Business Professional Skills The Business Professional Environment Programming Mathematics for Computing Systems Analysis Design Principals of Computing Technologies Not a single one of these modules made any effort to be network related. The first two were similar and involved basic GCSE level literature stuff along with spending a whole semester pretending to run a company that made paint stripper out of pigeon excrement. Programming was a very basic grounding in C++ Maths was again GCSE level with a bit of Matrices thrown in for the Visualisation students. Systems Analysis and Design involved theorising about making computerised versions of a couple of forms for an obscure activities holiday company whilst Principals of Computing Technologies tought us how to write assembler for the 8085 chip. In year two we have done the following: Networking Technologies Unix Networking and Administration Unix, Linux and X Web Based Systems Software Development: Concepts and Methods Databases Here we are getting there, but it isn't exactly serious stuff and is the kind of thing you learn by spending your spare time fiddling about with stuff. Networking tech involved mostly installing Windows 95 systems to do peer2peer stuff and client server stuff. One experiment involved a basic Novell server install and another involved a basic Cisco router configuration. Unix Net Admin is how to add/remove accounts, file permissions and giving an adapter an ip address. Unix Linux and X is literally bash shell scripting on a server with a weird configuration. Web Based Systems, ahh yes. First semester was html and javascript. They got as far as form tags and input checking. Second semester involved being given some perl code for connecting to a database and integrating it (putting a website in front of it). SDCM is all about how Billy Bojo and Frank Redneck came up with X theory about Y. I think about 80% of our course a) didn't see the point in the subject b) didn't understand any of the teachers (it was a rarety that they could speak English anywhere near properly) and c) have failed this subject. Databases was mysql. That was fairly useful in that it went into a fair bit of depth about the commands. Third year (next year) we are all on placements yet the uni still charges £1000 for tuition fees. I don't know what we're supposed to be doing in the fourth year because all trace of our course description has been eradicated from the website. It would appear, however that the people who started their course this year have it better than us in that they are doing all the networking stuff we did this year in the first year. A list of next years networking degree is here: http://www.shu.ac.uk/schools/cms/ug/courses.html I would provide a link to the actual course but I can't be bothered looking at their javascript. If its anything like the uni network, it'll be hours of fun (took them and Novell two months to realise that all the serious login problems were due to all the computers trying to use a server that had been removed). Oh well, I hope noone from the CIS or CMS departments read this list or I might end up not coming back next year. That is just an example of how little a degree in networks might actually mean. I worked 7 months nightshift at an ISP and learned far more relevant stuff than the two years on a networking degree have taught me. Several times I have considered giving it up and looking around for industry certifications but I keep hoping that the next year will be better...though that depends on whether I can find a placement that doesn't just involve writing websites. If anyone around here knows of a decent networking related company that might offer an at least half decent placement then do let me know. It seems this kind of placement is rather sparse this year. -- O- cw, [EMAIL PROTECTED] on 23/05/2002 Part man, part monkey. Baby that's me
Re: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?
[EMAIL PROTECTED]: Valdis is from VT, so I hope he's listening. Why couldn't we as a networking community sit down and come up with a degree program that goes from BS to PhD? Sure it can touch on basic programming and basic processor design, but it would be more heavily weighted towards utilizing technologies on the market and creating solutions to the common programs. It could be a mix between the CCIE, Net+, etc. Because I know my Comp Engineering program doesn't touch on anything related at all to networking, and never even mentions the idea of security. So why not create a focused area for this? cf Internet Engineering Curriculum Repository http://www.caida.org/outreach/iec/ MEng Internetworking http://www.dal.ca/~eine/index.html cheers Bram
Re: Certification or College degrees?
On Wed, May 22, 2002 at 09:35:22PM -0500, Blake Fithen wrote: Usually what you say is helpful. I have to disagree with you here though. A few things I learned in a CIS degree program which apply to networking: Contrary to what appears to be popular belief, there are schools which have Networking programs..For instance, New York Institute of Technology has an AAS in Telecommunications Technology and a BS in Telecommunications Management. Classes include multiple Voice Data classes, as well as Wireless Networking, Traffic Management, Network Management, LAN/WAN/MAN, Telecom Law/Policy, as well as a slew of Electronics and CompSci classes... All very useful for foundations, and pretty interesting...At least I found it useful and worth the money... Jeff
Re: Certification or College degrees?
On Wed, May 22, 2002 at 05:51:36PM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: [snip] The narrow scope of industry certification will be its undoing, unless one can create industry certifications that exemplify industry-wide best practices. SAGE has just started a certification program that attempts to be interdisciplinary, but I suspect it will take some time before it becomes known and trusted. http://www.sagecert.org Of course, if you're not really a systems administrator, it may not apply to you ... -- Scott Francis darkuncle@ [home:] d a r k u n c l e . n e t Systems/Network Manager sfrancis@ [work:] t o n o s . c o m GPG public key 0xCB33CCA7 illum oportet crescere me autem minui msg02123/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
