re: This may be stupid but
I just had to respond to this thread and throw my 2 cents in. I can certainly see the frustration of hiring managers (having done so myself) that receive a load of resumes full of certified individuals who don't know squat. That is what a tech interview is for, though isn't it? Unfortunately to get to that interview you need a bit of flash to get your foot in the door. The world is as full of people claiming to be a linux guru as it is of MCSE's. I think some certs at least show that you are capable of learning, and some of the higher level ones show that you are capable of understanding/using concepts as well. Now I freely admit to being a cert collector/whore - I just do it for fun nowadays but I am willing to back every bit of it up in a tech interview - in fact I normally ask to tech interview with the heads of the unix, security, AND networking groups to prove I know what I claim to know (and I'm pretty sure I could pass as a high-level Microsoft guy if I desired). But it would be a tragic mistake on anyone's behalf to pre-assume that all those letters means I don't know what I am talking about. That's stereotyping, isn't it? -- Don Mills SCSA SCNA CCNP CCDP CISSP CQS-VPN CQS-PIX Chief Network Security/WAN Architect VA Dept. of Social Services [EMAIL PROTECTED]
re: This may be stupid but
On Thu, 13 Nov 2003, Don Mills wrote: But it would be a tragic mistake on anyone's behalf to pre-assume that all those letters means I don't know what I am talking about. That's stereotyping, isn't it? Don (take it as a good-spirited needling, please) I'd like to point out that this means that you have way too much spare time and an employer who doesn't care much about squeezing from you all 110% of what you can possibly do :) --vadim
Re: This may be stupid but
Nah. I'm just a quick study and it's better than drinking all weekend. On Thursday 13 November 2003 05:07 pm, Vadim Antonov wrote: On Thu, 13 Nov 2003, Don Mills wrote: But it would be a tragic mistake on anyone's behalf to pre-assume that all those letters means I don't know what I am talking about. That's stereotyping, isn't it? Don (take it as a good-spirited needling, please) I'd like to point out that this means that you have way too much spare time and an employer who doesn't care much about squeezing from you all 110% of what you can possibly do :) --vadim -- Don Mills SCSA SCNA CCNP CCDP CISSP CQS-VPN CQS-PIX Network Security/WAN Architect VA Dept. of Social Services [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: This may be stupid but
I created a test of my own that I typically give to candidates. This has proved very helpful in determining if the prospective hire has strengths in the areas I need. Everytime I have skipped using the test I get burned. That being said I am still looking for attitude and work ethic as being a major component of the decision. Uh..I just realized I started this thread, I better be sit back and be quiet. -- Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
Re: This may be stupid but
I know, that e-bay used test to select a candidates, as well... - Original Message - From: Fisher, Shawn [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 9:02 PM Subject: Re: This may be stupid but I created a test of my own that I typically give to candidates. This has proved very helpful in determining if the prospective hire has strengths in the areas I need. Everytime I have skipped using the test I get burned. That being said I am still looking for attitude and work ethic as being a major component of the decision. Uh..I just realized I started this thread, I better be sit back and be quiet. -- Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
Re: This may be stupid but
On Thu, 13 Nov 2003, Don Mills wrote: Nah. I'm just a quick study and it's better than drinking all weekend. Oh, you _do_ have weekends :) --vadim
Re: This may be stupid but..
When I interview, I start out by asking one or two key questions that help me quickly get to the truth. For instance at one company, when I has hiring NOC folks, I started by asking them to explain traceroute to me. Which one? ICMP, UDP or TCP traceroute (to name the usual ones)? PS: this is the answer I'd expect from applicants... but this depends on what cluelevel you want/need in your NOC. :-) It's not the answer I would expect. First of all, the question asked the candidate to explain and the answer was not an explanation. In fact, the answer was just the kind of meaningless memory work that CCxx and MSxx certified people are good at. As an interviewer, I don't want short answers like you find in a multiple choice exam. I want some detail that shows that the candidate really does have some understanding of how network protocols work on the inside. Mistakes are OK because I'm not marking the person on their perfection but I'm trying to find out how they think and how they might approach network problems on the job. It's the same reason that I like to ask candidates to tell a story about some past event and how they, personally, dealt with it. If a candidate has had real personal experience of something then they will be able to tell me a story filled with detail. On the other hand, you sometimes get people who can only say we did this and we did that which leads you to believe that maybe the person was the NOC janitor or something. The best job interview questions are the ones that don't have a right answer. --Michael Dillon
Re: This may be stupid but..
Doug, Don't tease - you absolutely owe us the full text of the response from the fellow who was upset about your asking for a public SSH key as part of the interview process. Neal Doug Luce wrote: I rely on recruiters to funnel applicants to the company. I also use Monster and jobs.perl.org to do the same. But I don't rely on them top do much weeding. These days, I used semi-automated remote testing to find the good guys. I put very little faith in resumes, and do not use them to evaluate candidates. This has worked out extremely well. I imagine that this process is not suitable for many positions, or for cultures that are different from Telerama's. Check out the job posting at https://doug.telerama.com/admin_job.txt In particular: DO NOT SEND YOUR RESUME at this point of the application process. If you do send your resume, we will assume you did not bother to carefully read this job posting, and we will not consider your application. To begin taking the tests, please send your public SSH key to [EMAIL PROTECTED] along with your email contact information. Sending your SSH key is the only way to signal your interest in this position. Please do not send a resume, cover letter, or other plea. The last time I posted this, I received 200 total replies. 151 contained resumes, 52 contained public SSH keys, 4 contained public PGP keys, and 1 contained a private SSH key. One further response expressed hostility toward the requirement of a candidate's public SSH key in order to be considered for a position. Doug -- mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] phone:402-301-9555 IM:Neal R Rauhauser After all that I've been through, you're the only one who matters, you never left me in the dark here on my own - Widespread Panic
Re: This may be stupid but.
This person obviously didn't understand the security implications associated with handing out your public SSH key. Also, to those that have been asking: the semi-automated test environment was dismantled about the same time we filled the position, so we don't have it available to go through. Doug From: imp mis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Bcc: Subject: Unix/Internet Systems Administration Position so you want my public ssh key or you won't consider me for you're position?? FUCK YOU!!! how's that On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, neal rauhauser wrote: Doug, Don't tease - you absolutely owe us the full text of the response from the fellow who was upset about your asking for a public SSH key as part of the interview process. Neal Doug Luce wrote: I rely on recruiters to funnel applicants to the company. I also use Monster and jobs.perl.org to do the same. But I don't rely on them top do much weeding. These days, I used semi-automated remote testing to find the good guys. I put very little faith in resumes, and do not use them to evaluate candidates. This has worked out extremely well. I imagine that this process is not suitable for many positions, or for cultures that are different from Telerama's. Check out the job posting at https://doug.telerama.com/admin_job.txt In particular: DO NOT SEND YOUR RESUME at this point of the application process. If you do send your resume, we will assume you did not bother to carefully read this job posting, and we will not consider your application. To begin taking the tests, please send your public SSH key to [EMAIL PROTECTED] along with your email contact information. Sending your SSH key is the only way to signal your interest in this position. Please do not send a resume, cover letter, or other plea. The last time I posted this, I received 200 total replies. 151 contained resumes, 52 contained public SSH keys, 4 contained public PGP keys, and 1 contained a private SSH key. One further response expressed hostility toward the requirement of a candidate's public SSH key in order to be considered for a position. Doug -- mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] phone:402-301-9555 IM:Neal R Rauhauser After all that I've been through, you're the only one who matters, you never left me in the dark here on my own - Widespread Panic
Re: This may be stupid but.
Well, FORK YOU AND THE PACKET YOU WERE ENCAPSULATED IN! This is just priceless ... I am going to send the guy a note and find out where he is working these days :-) Doug Luce wrote: This person obviously didn't understand the security implications associated with handing out your public SSH key. Also, to those that have been asking: the semi-automated test environment was dismantled about the same time we filled the position, so we don't have it available to go through. Doug From: imp mis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Bcc: Subject: Unix/Internet Systems Administration Position so you want my public ssh key or you won't consider me for you're position?? FUCK YOU!!! how's that On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, neal rauhauser wrote: Doug, Don't tease - you absolutely owe us the full text of the response from the fellow who was upset about your asking for a public SSH key as part of the interview process. Neal Doug Luce wrote: I rely on recruiters to funnel applicants to the company. I also use Monster and jobs.perl.org to do the same. But I don't rely on them top do much weeding. These days, I used semi-automated remote testing to find the good guys. I put very little faith in resumes, and do not use them to evaluate candidates. This has worked out extremely well. I imagine that this process is not suitable for many positions, or for cultures that are different from Telerama's. Check out the job posting at https://doug.telerama.com/admin_job.txt In particular: DO NOT SEND YOUR RESUME at this point of the application process. If you do send your resume, we will assume you did not bother to carefully read this job posting, and we will not consider your application. To begin taking the tests, please send your public SSH key to [EMAIL PROTECTED] along with your email contact information. Sending your SSH key is the only way to signal your interest in this position. Please do not send a resume, cover letter, or other plea. The last time I posted this, I received 200 total replies. 151 contained resumes, 52 contained public SSH keys, 4 contained public PGP keys, and 1 contained a private SSH key. One further response expressed hostility toward the requirement of a candidate's public SSH key in order to be considered for a position. Doug -- mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] phone:402-301-9555 IM:Neal R Rauhauser After all that I've been through, you're the only one who matters, you never left me in the dark here on my own - Widespread Panic -- mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] phone:402-301-9555 IM:Neal R Rauhauser After all that I've been through, you're the only one who matters, you never left me in the dark here on my own - Widespread Panic
Re: This may be stupid but..
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's the same reason that I like to ask candidates to tell a story about some past event and how they, personally, dealt with it. If a candidate has had real personal experience of something then they will be able to tell me a story filled with detail. On the other hand, you sometimes get people who can only say we did this and we did that which leads you to believe that maybe the person was the NOC janitor or something. Also an excellent way of checking if your candidate cares about past employers confidentiality. That is if you want to see someone bad-mouth a previous company. Peter
Re: This may be stupid but..
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, Peter Galbavy wrote: Also an excellent way of checking if your candidate cares about past employers confidentiality. That is if you want to see someone bad-mouth a previous company. oh no, i like some gossip.. wheres the fun of an ex-nameyourisp employee not telling you about all their dirty secrets ;p Steve
Re: This may be stupid but..
I rely on recruiters to funnel applicants to the company. I also use Monster and jobs.perl.org to do the same. But I don't rely on them top do much weeding. These days, I used semi-automated remote testing to find the good guys. I put very little faith in resumes, and do not use them to evaluate candidates. This has worked out extremely well. I imagine that this process is not suitable for many positions, or for cultures that are different from Telerama's. Check out the job posting at https://doug.telerama.com/admin_job.txt In particular: DO NOT SEND YOUR RESUME at this point of the application process. If you do send your resume, we will assume you did not bother to carefully read this job posting, and we will not consider your application. To begin taking the tests, please send your public SSH key to [EMAIL PROTECTED] along with your email contact information. Sending your SSH key is the only way to signal your interest in this position. Please do not send a resume, cover letter, or other plea. The last time I posted this, I received 200 total replies. 151 contained resumes, 52 contained public SSH keys, 4 contained public PGP keys, and 1 contained a private SSH key. One further response expressed hostility toward the requirement of a candidate's public SSH key in order to be considered for a position. Doug
Re: This may be stupid but..
Eric Brunner-Williams in Portland Maine wrote: of my best hires (at sri, .5k hosts, circa 1987) were simply trainable. an english major (f) from reed, and a cs major (m) from a school that taught cobol as a modern language -- i hired him for his night job skills, managing an auto body shop, managing ordinary joes holding tools. My best hire, now one of my good friends, was someone who was on a teacher-training course but had to drop out due to a long term illness. She came to me recommended by my girlfriend-a-the-time as someone who would make a good office junior. She is now one of the bext web/perl/sql coders I know. A willingness, nay - a NEED, to learn and be open to new concepts is what forward moving technology sectors (like ours I hope) need. Acronyms mean sh*t. When involved in any hiring process, I actively avoid CCIE/MSCE/etc. laden resumes. Mentioning once, fine. Using them like religious phrases is an indictation of, well, stupidity. i'm recruiter-proof. i'm not sure i'd want anyone who wasn't. Aye. I have *never* used my CV/Resume in getting a job. I still have one, but it's very out of date. Peter
Re: This may be stupid but..
DO NOT SEND YOUR RESUME at this point of the application process. If you do send your resume, we will assume you did not bother to carefully read this job posting, and we will not consider your application. To begin taking the tests, please send your public SSH key to [EMAIL PROTECTED] along with your email contact information. I like these two points. Essentially, they are ways of weeding out the large number of timewasters who just can't do the job. Who wants to open up their network infrastructure to someone who can't read and understand plain English? And how many truly experienced network engineers would not be able to generate an SSH public key if they don't already have one? But this type of technique can also be used with recruiters. It just means that you have to train them in how to identify candidates that you like. In past lives at other companies I've done this. For instance, I told the recruiters that MS certification was a bad thing and that I the only Cisco cert that was remotely interesting was CCIE. I also told them that at least half the resumes they submitted should have no certs at all. I explained the kind of UNIX experience that was good to have, i.e. using Linux or BSD at home. I also told them that I wouldn't see any candidates until I had interviewed them over the phone. This let me quickly weed out the evasive ones who were probably stretching the truth on their resumes. When I interview, I start out by asking one or two key questions that help me quickly get to the truth. For instance at one company, when I has hiring NOC folks, I started by asking them to explain traceroute to me. The answer that I wanted was one which showed that they had a detailed understanding of what was going on at the protocol level as the packets flowed through the network because that view of the network is needed to effectively troubleshoot problems. It did lead to one awkward situation with a 16 year-old who immediately started talking about ICMP echos with varying TTL and routers sending back ICMP echo-replies. I wanted to end the interview and hire him on the spot but it seemed unfair to give this young guy the idea that job interviews are that short. I believe that it is possible to train recruiters to ask one or two questions like this by giving them a few samples of the level of detail that you are looking for. For example I could have told a recruiter that the answer should mention TTL and echo-reply. If you shop for a recruiter who is willing to learn about your needs and properly select candidates according to *YOUR* requirements I think that recruiters can be much better than hiring directly. --Michael Dillon
Re: This may be stupid but..
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 17:16:46 -0500 From: Fisher, Shawn [EMAIL PROTECTED] If this question is inappropriate for this list I apoligize in advance. Tangential matter is the lifeblood of all mailing lists. [...] My question, what is the most effective way to recruit quality engineers? Does anyone have experience or opinions to share? Word of mouth, friends-of-friends, the jungle drum. Not recruiters, at least if you're looking for capital-I Internet people. In my last job the company used several recruitment agencies in trying to fill its vacancies, but we never got anything even remotely suitable as far as Internet engineers went. It may be that you can find a recruiter that will actually listen to both you as well as potential candidates, but all the ones I've dealt with haven't progressed beyond checkbox sorting -- any CV that doesn't score 9 out of 10 checkboxes (CCblah, etc) on the top of page 1 go straight in the bin. And some don't even go to that lenght of effort. Ask for a Network Engineer and they'll drown you in Excellent MCSE, very strong, superior skills type CVs. Go to NANOG (or RIPE in Europe) and possibly IETF meetings, and schmoooze ... -- Per [I see some familiar names in the Nanog digest. Yes, it's me.-]
Re: This may be stupid but..
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: network is needed to effectively troubleshoot problems. It did lead to one awkward situation with a 16 year-old who immediately started talking about ICMP echos with varying TTL and routers sending back ICMP echo-replies. I wanted to end the interview and hire him on the spot but it seemed unfair to give this young guy the idea that job interviews are that short. If that would be the criteria, wouldn´t the acceptable answer involve UDP packets and ICMP time exceeded? (not counting windows way of doing traceroute) Pete
Re: This may be stupid but..
talking about ICMP echos with varying TTL and routers sending back ICMP echo-replies. I wanted to end the interview and hire him on the If that would be the criteria, wouldn´t the acceptable answer involve UDP packets and ICMP time exceeded? (not counting windows way of doing traceroute) Little details like that can be sorted out later by education. In fact, the individual that I'm thinking of may have mentioned UDP packets. The point is that the answer shows the kind of detailed understanding of the network that you want in a network engineer. This guy wasn't just a user of tools that do stuff, he understood what was happening inside the network layers themselves. There are lots of people who know how to use traceroute or Infovista but you wouldn't want them logging into your core routers for troubleshooting. --Michael Dillon
Re: This may be stupid but..
experienced network engineers would not be able to generate an SSH public key if they don't already have one? And for this same reason, we ask for the resume's in Plain ASCII If they simply export their Word doc, it gets deleted as the formatting is terrible. A good geek/sysadmin understands the importance of a well formatted ASCII file. --Mike--
RE: This may be stupid but..
Does anyone know if Telcove is blocking any 135 ports or 139? I have a class that is trying to access our network from this ISP and they are unable to connect. Everyone else is working fine. Let me know Thanks, -Original Message- From: mike harrison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 9:50 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: This may be stupid but.. experienced network engineers would not be able to generate an SSH public key if they don't already have one? And for this same reason, we ask for the resume's in Plain ASCII If they simply export their Word doc, it gets deleted as the formatting is terrible. A good geek/sysadmin understands the importance of a well formatted ASCII file. --Mike--
RE: This may be stupid but..
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 6:03 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: This may be stupid but.. snip When I interview, I start out by asking one or two key questions that help me quickly get to the truth. For instance at one company, when I has hiring NOC folks, I started by asking them to explain traceroute to me. The answer that I wanted was one which showed that they had a detailed understanding of what was going on at the protocol level as the packets flowed through the network because that view of the network is needed to effectively troubleshoot problems. It did lead to one awkward situation with a 16 year-old who immediately started talking about ICMP echos with varying TTL and routers sending back ICMP echo-replies. I wanted to end the interview and hire him on the spot but it seemed unfair to give this young guy the idea that job interviews are that short. Especially since not all traceroutes use ICMP and the reply from the routers is typically NOT ICMP echo-reply. :-) snip --Michael Dillon -Wayne Gustavus
stop the CC'ing Re: [Re: This may be stupid but.. ]
Hey folks, can you please stop the CC'ing of people that have responded to this thread. Just reply to NANOG. On Mon, Nov 10, 2003 at 11:36:50AM -0500, joshua sahala wrote: Peter Galbavy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A willingness, nay - a NEED, to learn and be open to new concepts is what forward moving technology sectors (like ours I hope) need. definately - however, i know of some very smart people, with a huge drive to learn, were relegated to clueless tasks because they didn't have many many years of experience. there is a distrubing trend amongst managers/etc where they think that if you haven't already done the job for several years, you can't learn to do it, or don't have the skill to do it. i am not saying that this is universal (as demonstrated by several posts here to that effect), but i think that these are exceptions Acronyms mean sh*t. When involved in any hiring process, I actively avoid CCIE/MSCE/etc. laden resumes. Mentioning once, fine. Using them like religious phrases is an indictation of, well, stupidity. certifications are often necessary to open the door - granted if you were architecting internetworks when many of today's certified 'engineers' were still in grade school, then no, certifications are probably not needed. experience is a catch-22, you need experience to get a job, but you need a job to get experience. i am not saying that certifications are a panacea, but lacking the ability to say that i built $major_isp, my certs have helped me (a little) in getting past the recruiter/hr to where my technical skills can be demonstrated i'm recruiter-proof. i'm not sure i'd want anyone who wasn't. Aye. I have *never* used my CV/Resume in getting a job. I still have one, but it's very out of date. never is a long time perhaps it is just the fact that i am 'new' to the field, but my resume has gotten me all but one job, and my resume indirectly got me that one. my slightly bitter $0.02 /joshua Peter Walk with me through the Universe, And along the way see how all of us are Connected. Feast the eyes of your Soul, On the Love that abounds. In all places at once, seemingly endless, Like your own existence. - Stephen Hawking -
Re: [Re: This may be stupid but.. ]
On Mon, 2003-11-10 at 11:36, joshua sahala wrote: Peter Galbavy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Acronyms mean sh*t. When involved in any hiring process, I actively avoid CCIE/MSCE/etc. laden resumes. Mentioning once, fine. Using them like religious phrases is an indictation of, well, stupidity. certifications are often necessary to open the door - granted if you were architecting internetworks when many of today's certified 'engineers' were still in grade school, then no, certifications are probably not needed. I consider myself one of the 'old guys' and all the experience in the world doesn't mean %*$%*$ to a recruiter OR a company hiring manager if you don't have the magic initials they've heard about behind your name. I was always too busy doing my 'real job' making the customers happy so I never spent time getting 'useless' certifications or developing networking relationships with other professionals for later use. Those of you with jobs, be very careful not to be lured into that trap. You've got to think of your future first and foremost. No one else will. Tim McKee i'm recruiter-proof. i'm not sure i'd want anyone who wasn't. Aye. I have *never* used my CV/Resume in getting a job. I still have one, but it's very out of date. never is a long time perhaps it is just the fact that i am 'new' to the field, but my resume has gotten me all but one job, and my resume indirectly got me that one. my slightly bitter $0.02 /joshua Peter Walk with me through the Universe, And along the way see how all of us are Connected. Feast the eyes of your Soul, On the Love that abounds. In all places at once, seemingly endless, Like your own existence. - Stephen Hawking - -- Timothy R. McKee [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: stop the CC'ing Re: [Re: This may be stupid but.. ]
John Brown (CV) writes on 11/10/2003 11:43 AM: Hey folks, can you please stop the CC'ing of people that have responded to this thread. Just reply to NANOG. Sure thing. To: joshua sahala [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Peter Galbavy [EMAIL PROTECTED], Richard Irving [EMAIL PROTECTED], Eric Brunner-Williams in Portland Maine [EMAIL PROTECTED], Vadim Antonov [EMAIL PROTECTED], Nanog List (E-mail) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: stop the CC'ing Re: [Re: This may be stupid but.. ] Ironic, isn't it? -- srs (postmaster|suresh)@outblaze.com // gpg : EDEDEFB9 manager, outblaze.com security and antispam operations
Re: stop the CC'ing Re: [Re: This may be stupid but.. ]
Hey folks, can you please stop the CC'ing of people that have responded to this thread. Just reply to NANOG. procmail is your friend # -- # # prevent dupes # :0 Wh: msgid.lock | formail -D 65536 msgid.cache # # --
Re: This may be stupid but..
Where is the nanog job board to post open positions to? To my knowledge it is still a yahoo-group called nanog-jobs. It's pretty low traffic - the last note I saw was on 10/9 and probably 20 posts in the past year. There was an administrative post in February that stated the list was moving elsewhere, but it doesn't appear to have ever done so. The list still exists. New subscriptions are approved regularly. We get about five new subscriptions a week. I'd considered moving the list off of yahoogroups after their changing-mail-pref scam, but I later held off. The list will still be moving, sometime in the next 30 days or so, but subscriptions will be preserved. I invite those interested or those recently subscribed to send a short introduction to the list regarding who you are, what you're looking for, and what skillsets. A resume is not desired or required. nanog-jobs has only had, IIRC, about five job postings, but it is an excellent way to get in touch with a good cross-section of candidates who tend to have more network engineering and architecture knowledge than the average joe. nanog-jobs is *not* affiliated with NANOG proper or Merit, although there have been some very informal BOFs in the past at NANOG events. Miami will be the next. My purpose in creating the list was the hope that a more informal recruitment structure would prevail, since prescreening was less necessary in the light of the fact that I tend to aggressively moderate subscriptions to the list and I tried very hard to target (in my initial actions in creating the list) people with routing protocol and switching experience primarily, while trying not to target those with MCSE/CCNA certifications alone. Best regards, Tim -- Tim Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [Re: This may be stupid but.. ]
I agree certifications are overated at best. Give me someone with the right attitude and I'll teach him anything. Showing the ability to get things done is the greatest skill imo. -Original Message- From: Timothy R. McKee [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 11:48 AM To: joshua sahala Cc: Peter Galbavy; Richard Irving; Eric Brunner-Williams in Portland Maine; Vadim Antonov; John Brown (CV); Nanog List (E-mail) Subject: Re: [Re: This may be stupid but.. ] On Mon, 2003-11-10 at 11:36, joshua sahala wrote: Peter Galbavy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Acronyms mean sh*t. When involved in any hiring process, I actively avoid CCIE/MSCE/etc. laden resumes. Mentioning once, fine. Using them like religious phrases is an indictation of, well, stupidity. certifications are often necessary to open the door - granted if you were architecting internetworks when many of today's certified 'engineers' were still in grade school, then no, certifications are probably not needed. I consider myself one of the 'old guys' and all the experience in the world doesn't mean %*$%*$ to a recruiter OR a company hiring manager if you don't have the magic initials they've heard about behind your name. I was always too busy doing my 'real job' making the customers happy so I never spent time getting 'useless' certifications or developing networking relationships with other professionals for later use. Those of you with jobs, be very careful not to be lured into that trap. You've got to think of your future first and foremost. No one else will. Tim McKee i'm recruiter-proof. i'm not sure i'd want anyone who wasn't. Aye. I have *never* used my CV/Resume in getting a job. I still have one, but it's very out of date. never is a long time perhaps it is just the fact that i am 'new' to the field, but my resume has gotten me all but one job, and my resume indirectly got me that one. my slightly bitter $0.02 /joshua Peter Walk with me through the Universe, And along the way see how all of us are Connected. Feast the eyes of your Soul, On the Love that abounds. In all places at once, seemingly endless, Like your own existence. - Stephen Hawking - -- Timothy R. McKee [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Re: This may be stupid but.. ]
Thus spake 'Timothy R. McKee' [EMAIL PROTECTED] I agree certifications are overated at best. Give me someone with the right attitude and I'll teach him anything. Showing the ability to get things done is the greatest skill imo. Unfortunately, most recruiters and even hiring managers have no way to determine if a candidate has the skills or attitude necessary for a high-end tech job. This, IMHO, is where certifications become somewhat valid; they provide a minimum bar (however low) for non-technical people to use. They're misused too, of course. I've had several recruiters tell me I wasn't qualified for a job because I wasn't a CCNA -- CCIE wasn't good enough. S Stephen Sprunk God does not play dice. --Albert Einstein CCIE #3723 God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the K5SSSdice at every possible opportunity. --Stephen Hawking
Re: This may be stupid but..
On Mon, Nov 10, 2003 at 11:03:15AM +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When I interview, I start out by asking one or two key questions that help me quickly get to the truth. For instance at one company, when I has hiring NOC folks, I started by asking them to explain traceroute to me. Which one? ICMP, UDP or TCP traceroute (to name the usual ones)? silence on other side of the table :-) Best regards, Daniel PS: this is the answer I'd expect from applicants... but this depends on what cluelevel you want/need in your NOC. :-)
Re: [Re: This may be stupid but.. ]
On Mon, Nov 10, 2003 at 12:51:55PM -0500, Fisher, Shawn wrote: I agree certifications are overated at best. Give me someone with the right attitude and I'll teach him anything. Showing the ability to get things done is the greatest skill imo. I once read the following and saved it away... Hire and promote first on the basis of integrity; second, motivation; third, capacity; fourth, understanding; fifth, knowledge; and last and least, experience. Without integrity, motivation is dangerous; without motivation, capacity is impotent; without capacity, understanding is limited; without understanding, knowledge is meaningless; without knowledge, experience is blind. Experience is easy to provide and quickly put to good use by people with all the other qualities. Have no clue who's the origin. Best regards, Daniel
Re: [Re: This may be stupid but.. ]
On Nov 10, 2003, at 2:38 PM, Daniel Roesen wrote: On Mon, Nov 10, 2003 at 12:51:55PM -0500, Fisher, Shawn wrote: I agree certifications are overated at best. Give me someone with the right attitude and I'll teach him anything. Showing the ability to get things done is the greatest skill imo. I once read the following and saved it away... Hire and promote first on the basis of integrity; second, motivation; third, capacity; fourth, understanding; fifth, knowledge; and last and least, experience. Without integrity, motivation is dangerous; without motivation, capacity is impotent; without capacity, understanding is limited; without understanding, knowledge is meaningless; without knowledge, experience is blind. Experience is easy to provide and quickly put to good use by people with all the other qualities. Have no clue who's the origin. So what you're saying is you want cisco to certify people's integrity? :) Best regards, Daniel -- Matt Levine [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Trouble with doing anything right the first time is that nobody appreciates how difficult it was. -BIX
Re: This may be stupid but..
On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 20:27:46 +0100, Daniel Roesen [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Mon, Nov 10, 2003 at 11:03:15AM +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When I interview, I start out by asking one or two key questions that help me quickly get to the truth. For instance at one company, when I has hiring NOC folks, I started by asking them to explain traceroute to me. Which one? ICMP, UDP or TCP traceroute (to name the usual ones)? What kind, African, or European? (Woe unto the interviewer who doesn't know. ;) pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: This may be stupid but..
On Mon, Nov 10, 2003 at 02:50:47PM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Which one? ICMP, UDP or TCP traceroute (to name the usual ones)? What kind, African, or European? (Woe unto the interviewer who doesn't know. ;) Exactly what I had in mind... :-) Unfortunately, those kind of interviews usually don't happen right next to a deep canyon. Best regards, Daniel
RE: [Re: This may be stupid but.. ]
I once was in a class sitting beside a CCIE that asked me what the command syntax was. I have no faith in the certified. -Original Message- From: Matt Levine [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 2:50 PM To: Daniel Roesen Cc: Nanog List (E-mail) Subject: Re: [Re: This may be stupid but.. ] On Nov 10, 2003, at 2:38 PM, Daniel Roesen wrote: On Mon, Nov 10, 2003 at 12:51:55PM -0500, Fisher, Shawn wrote: I agree certifications are overated at best. Give me someone with the right attitude and I'll teach him anything. Showing the ability to get things done is the greatest skill imo. I once read the following and saved it away... Hire and promote first on the basis of integrity; second, motivation; third, capacity; fourth, understanding; fifth, knowledge; and last and least, experience. Without integrity, motivation is dangerous; without motivation, capacity is impotent; without capacity, understanding is limited; without understanding, knowledge is meaningless; without knowledge, experience is blind. Experience is easy to provide and quickly put to good use by people with all the other qualities. Have no clue who's the origin. So what you're saying is you want cisco to certify people's integrity? :) Best regards, Daniel -- Matt Levine [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Trouble with doing anything right the first time is that nobody appreciates how difficult it was. -BIX
Re: [Re: This may be stupid but.. ]
On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Matt Levine wrote: So what you're saying is you want cisco to certify people's integrity? :) Bether them than Belkin. -- Jay Hennigan - CCIE #7880 - Network Administration - [EMAIL PROTECTED] WestNet: Connecting you to the planet. 805 884-6323 WB6RDV NetLojix Communications, Inc. - http://www.netlojix.com/
Re: This may be stupid but..
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 11/10/03 12:50:47 PM On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 20:27:46 +0100, Daniel Roesen [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Mon, Nov 10, 2003 at 11:03:15AM +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When I interview, I start out by asking one or two key questions that help me quickly get to the truth. For instance at one company, when I has hiring NOC folks, I started by asking them to explain traceroute to me. Which one? ICMP, UDP or TCP traceroute (to name the usual ones)? What kind, African, or European? (Woe unto the interviewer who doesn't know. ;) Hmm...I think it would be more informative to know if the traceroute were laden or unladen. Everyone knows that unladen traceroutes display faster response times. -- --
RE: This may be stupid but..
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When I interview, I start out by asking one or two key questions that help me quickly get to the truth. For instance at one company, when I has hiring NOC folks, I started by asking them to explain traceroute to me. Which one? ICMP, UDP or TCP traceroute (to name the usual ones)? silence on other side of the table This would fall into the category of people being told to ask certain questions without really understanding the material or the expectation of the answer. A savvy, if ignorant, interviewer would say, Explain the difference between each. I can imagine that explaining the difference between African and European would be a little tougher to stand up to a (good) technical reviewer -- say who read the meeting notes. Then again, anyone who really wants to work for a very savvy technical organization should either put up with a few less clueful interviewers, or ask that their clue-savvy contact sit in on the interview to translate. I'm always a little concerned with very sharp guys (technically) who talk down, even unintentionally to their superiors or customers. In a market where smart guys are out of work, the smart guys with good interpersonal skills have an advantage. Deepak Jain AiNET
RE: [Re: This may be stupid but.. ]
As someone who once had a CCIE (5465), and who has encountered many certified individuals from various certifying organizations, in my experience, certification proves that the person has the certificate and little else. It does not prove they are incompetent. It certainly does not prove they are competent. I will say I have encountered more MCSEs that were incompetent than almost any other certification. I will also say that I have yet to meet an MCSE+I that knows anything about networking (unless I met the person and didn't know they were an MCSE+I). Owen --On Monday, November 10, 2003 16:58 -0500 Wayne Gustavus (nanog) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nothing like throwing the baby out with the bath water... One bad apple spoils the bunch.. I could go on... Wayne Gustavus -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Wesley Vaux Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 3:24 PM To: Matt Levine Cc: Nanog List (E-mail) Subject: RE: [Re: This may be stupid but.. ] I once was in a class sitting beside a CCIE that asked me what the command syntax was. I have no faith in the certified. -- If this message was not signed with gpg key 0FE2AA3D, it's probably a forgery. pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: This may be stupid but..
Now, the problem of finding a good recruiter is substituted for the problem of finding a good engineer :) The trade-off is good only if you're planning to hire dozens of engineers, considering monetary costs of such arrangement. Even better, if you're creating a large org, get a headhunter on board, and give him stock options - otherwise he has wrong incentives (i.e. he's better off with job-hopping upward mobility type of guys (the more expensive, the better) when he works for himself, and you really want smart and trainable staff and don't give a damn about perfect resume - and he's going to be cost-conscious). --vadim On Sun, 9 Nov 2003, Andy Walden wrote: Again, as with most things, there tends to be two ends to the spectrum.
RE: [Re: This may be stupid but.. ]
I agree that the CCIE is no panacea, but of the few dozen I've met there were only two I wouldn't trust with an enable password. Vendor certs will always be of limited value as most aim at the needs of enterprises rather than service providers, and even the couple that don't have an understandably unhealthy vendor centric view. What value they do have, IMHO is that they can show the effort the person is prepared to make to learn new things, particularly is their cert wasn't employer sponsored. Nothing beats personal recommendation, even if it's from my friends brothers acquaintance - just weeding out the nutjobs and BS artists leaves a pretty small pool. Simon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Owen DeLong Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 3:08 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [Re: This may be stupid but.. ] As someone who once had a CCIE (5465), and who has encountered many certified individuals from various certifying organizations, in my experience, certification proves that the person has the certificate and little else. It does not prove they are incompetent. It certainly does not prove they are competent. I will say I have encountered more MCSEs that were incompetent than almost any other certification. I will also say that I have yet to meet an MCSE+I that knows anything about networking (unless I met the person and didn't know they were an MCSE+I). Owen --On Monday, November 10, 2003 16:58 -0500 Wayne Gustavus (nanog) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nothing like throwing the baby out with the bath water... One bad apple spoils the bunch.. I could go on... Wayne Gustavus -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Wesley Vaux Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 3:24 PM To: Matt Levine Cc: Nanog List (E-mail) Subject: RE: [Re: This may be stupid but.. ] I once was in a class sitting beside a CCIE that asked me what the command syntax was. I have no faith in the certified. -- If this message was not signed with gpg key 0FE2AA3D, it's probably a forgery.
Re: This may be stupid but..
Recruiters can provide you a group of _average_ engineers, and do not protect you from a heap of junk. If you need a 100 new persons for your call center - it's a good way. If you are looking for _Windows administrator, 100 desktops all Win2K or WinXP, anti-virus, 2 domains - it is good method too. If you are designing new software, using new protocol and have 10 patents - use other methods. Vadim is right, such lists (as nanog) can be much more effective in finding _highly skilled_ engineers. Alex - Original Message - From: Fisher, Shawn [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Nanog List (E-mail) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 2:16 PM Subject: This may be stupid but.. If this question is inappropriate for this list I apoligize in advance. I have several open engineering positions that I am trying to fill without the use of a recruiter. My thoughts on using a recruiter is they end up extracting a fee from the employer that would be better put to the future employee. My question, what is the most effective way to recruit quality engineers? Does anyone have experience or opinions to share? TIA, Shawn
Re: This may be stupid but..
Recruiters can provide you a group of _average_ engineers, and do not protect you from a heap of junk. If you need a 100 new persons for your call center - it's a good way. If you are looking for _Windows administrator, 100 desktops all Win2K or WinXP, anti-virus, 2 domains - it is good method too. If you are designing new software, using new protocol and have 10 patents - use other methods. Vadim is right, such lists (as nanog) can be much more effective in finding _highly skilled_ engineers. Alex - Original Message - From: Fisher, Shawn [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Nanog List (E-mail) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 2:16 PM Subject: This may be stupid but.. If this question is inappropriate for this list I apoligize in advance. I have several open engineering positions that I am trying to fill without the use of a recruiter. My thoughts on using a recruiter is they end up extracting a fee from the employer that would be better put to the future employee. My question, what is the most effective way to recruit quality engineers? Does anyone have experience or opinions to share? TIA, Shawn
Re: This may be stupid but..
Recruiters can provide you a group of _average_ engineers, and do not protect you from a heap of junk. If you need a 100 new persons for your call center - it's a good way. If you are looking for _Windows administrator, 100 desktops all Win2K or WinXP, anti-virus, 2 domains - it is good method too. If you are designing new software, using new protocol and have 10 patents - use other methods. Vadim is right, such lists (as nanog) can be much more effective in finding _highly skilled_ engineers. Alex - Original Message - From: Fisher, Shawn [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Nanog List (E-mail) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 2:16 PM Subject: This may be stupid but.. If this question is inappropriate for this list I apoligize in advance. I have several open engineering positions that I am trying to fill without the use of a recruiter. My thoughts on using a recruiter is they end up extracting a fee from the employer that would be better put to the future employee. My question, what is the most effective way to recruit quality engineers? Does anyone have experience or opinions to share? TIA, Shawn
Re: This may be stupid but..
Recruiters can provide you a group of _average_ engineers, and do not protect you from a heap of junk. If you need a 100 new persons for your call center - it's a good way. If you are looking for _Windows administrator, 100 desktops all Win2K or WinXP, anti-virus, 2 domains - it is good method too. If you are designing new software, using new protocol and have 10 patents - use other methods. Vadim is right, such lists (as nanog) can be much more effective in finding _highly skilled_ engineers. Alex - Original Message - From: Fisher, Shawn [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Nanog List (E-mail) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 2:16 PM Subject: This may be stupid but.. If this question is inappropriate for this list I apoligize in advance. I have several open engineering positions that I am trying to fill without the use of a recruiter. My thoughts on using a recruiter is they end up extracting a fee from the employer that would be better put to the future employee. My question, what is the most effective way to recruit quality engineers? Does anyone have experience or opinions to share? TIA, Shawn
Re: This may be stupid but..
Recruiters can provide you a group of _average_ engineers, and do not protect you from a heap of junk. If you need a 100 new persons for your call center - it's a good way. If you are looking for _Windows administrator, 100 desktops all Win2K or WinXP, anti-virus, 2 domains - it is good method too. If you are designing new software, using new protocol and have 10 patents - use other methods. Vadim is right, such lists (as nanog) can be much more effective in finding _highly skilled_ engineers. Alex - Original Message - From: Fisher, Shawn [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Nanog List (E-mail) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 2:16 PM Subject: This may be stupid but.. If this question is inappropriate for this list I apoligize in advance. I have several open engineering positions that I am trying to fill without the use of a recruiter. My thoughts on using a recruiter is they end up extracting a fee from the employer that would be better put to the future employee. My question, what is the most effective way to recruit quality engineers? Does anyone have experience or opinions to share? TIA, Shawn
Re: This may be stupid but..
Alexei Roudnev wrote: Vadim is right, such lists (as nanog) can be much more effective in finding _highly skilled_ engineers. Where is the nanog job board to post open positions to? Pete
RE: This may be stupid but..
Where is the nanog job board to post open positions to? To my knowledge it is still a yahoo-group called nanog-jobs. It's pretty low traffic - the last note I saw was on 10/9 and probably 20 posts in the past year. There was an administrative post in February that stated the list was moving elsewhere, but it doesn't appear to have ever done so. -John
Re: This may be stupid but..
Vadim Antonov wrote: The only problem - they have no clue about the profession they're recruiting for and tend to judge applicants not by them saying reasonable things but by their self-assuredness and by keywords in resume. And Statistics show, the less knowledgeable you are in this field, the more cock sure of yourself you are, and the opposite hsa been proven true, as well. (Time and time again in help desks around the world, every single day.. ;) Recruiters ... (snip) In the end, they screen out all geeks and you end up with a bunch of polished liars. Vadim, you are getting as jaded as Bill. :P (Albeit accurate!) Better use networking and referrals, and Internet-based resources. --vadim On Sat, 8 Nov 2003, John Brown (CV) wrote: so negotiate with the recruiter. benifits of a recuriter are: * they take the twit calls * they read thru the resumes and sort the junk out * they do the screening * they do the reference and background checks * they have more resources to find people than you do this saves you time and money on your end. time better spent building customer base, solving customer problems, etc. and if you do a good contract with the recruiter, if the person you hire is sacked, they find you a new one at no cost :) On Sat, Nov 08, 2003 at 05:16:46PM -0500, Fisher, Shawn wrote: If this question is inappropriate for this list I apoligize in advance. I have several open engineering positions that I am trying to fill without the use of a recruiter. My thoughts on using a recruiter is they end up extracting a fee from the employer that would be better put to the future employee. My question, what is the most effective way to recruit quality engineers? Does anyone have experience or opinions to share? TIA, Shawn
Re: This may be stupid but..
recruiters will make sure that you only see resumes with some acronym begining with CC, and/or MS. this is not useful if you are not attempting to staff to replicate those notions of what an *sp that uses nanog needs. two of my best hires (at sri, .5k hosts, circa 1987) were simply trainable. an english major (f) from reed, and a cs major (m) from a school that taught cobol as a modern language -- i hired him for his night job skills, managing an auto body shop, managing ordinary joes holding tools. i'm recruiter-proof. i'm not sure i'd want anyone who wasn't. eric
Re: This may be stupid but..
Okay, I was kinda waiting a single alternative opinion of recruiters, but since I haven't seen one, I will offer one. True, most recruiters, like the middle part of any bell curve, tend to be...average. And as usual, with sweeping generalizations, you could be missing out on something. In fact, as I understand it, recruiting is one of the first steps of paying dues when walking up the HR ladder. There is certainly an echelon of well connected, knowledgable and trusted recruiters that place high quality candidates into the right jobs at the best companies. In fact, I know a few recruiters that used to be engineers. They tend to work with people that can demand a certain minimum salary, have years of industry experience and are currently employed. Recruiters are just as sick of misrepresented technical folks that don't have a clue wasting their time trying to tap jobs. Their creditabilty is on the line with every placement. Again, as with most things, there tends to be two ends to the spectrum. Best Regards, Andy Walden -- PGP Key Available at http://www.tigerteam.net/andy/pgp On Sun, 9 Nov 2003, Eric Brunner-Williams in Portland Maine wrote: recruiters will make sure that you only see resumes with some acronym begining with CC, and/or MS. this is not useful if you are not attempting to staff to replicate those notions of what an *sp that uses nanog needs. two of my best hires (at sri, .5k hosts, circa 1987) were simply trainable. an english major (f) from reed, and a cs major (m) from a school that taught cobol as a modern language -- i hired him for his night job skills, managing an auto body shop, managing ordinary joes holding tools. i'm recruiter-proof. i'm not sure i'd want anyone who wasn't. eric
Re: This may be stupid but..
by coincidence, trying to stay ahead of my three tropical cyclones (two of whom are autistic, the why in why i'm a stay-at-home parent), in a bundle of health/school/welfare papers to parse, my rejection from good old time warner cable of maine (hq'd about 15 minutes from my door) fell out and on to the floor. brenda buck, hr sup, wished me well in my job search, and cc'd christy tibbetts, dir. hr, as unfortunately, they did not have any available positions in my area of interest, and declined to retain my resume to boot. when you go to agencies -- in house (tw/maine) or external, you get their view of the world. i won't bore anyone with a clue'd user's view of tw/m, it is simply yet-another-marginally-functional-isp, with b/w as its only value prop, gratis muni-monopoly cable plant. is there a gold standard in hr outfits? we're not the sweet spot in the market, so their idea of gold is corporate-intra-net, ms-foo, cisco-bar, and maybe some crm people skills. i'd be happier with cwa organizing us and going the labor hall route. have fun. eric
Re: This may be stupid but..
so negotiate with the recruiter. benifits of a recuriter are: * they take the twit calls * they read thru the resumes and sort the junk out * they do the screening * they do the reference and background checks * they have more resources to find people than you do this saves you time and money on your end. time better spent building customer base, solving customer problems, etc. and if you do a good contract with the recruiter, if the person you hire is sacked, they find you a new one at no cost :) On Sat, Nov 08, 2003 at 05:16:46PM -0500, Fisher, Shawn wrote: If this question is inappropriate for this list I apoligize in advance. I have several open engineering positions that I am trying to fill without the use of a recruiter. My thoughts on using a recruiter is they end up extracting a fee from the employer that would be better put to the future employee. My question, what is the most effective way to recruit quality engineers? Does anyone have experience or opinions to share? TIA, Shawn
Re: This may be stupid but..
The only problem - they have no clue about the profession they're recruiting for and tend to judge applicants not by them saying reasonable things but by their self-assuredness and by keywords in resume. Recruiters are only good for initial screening and attracting applicants, and in this economic climate theis services are nearly worthless, too. As for presuming they actually read resumes... well, they may, but they never seem to be able to distinguish between reality and exaggregation or outright lies. In the end, they screen out all geeks and you end up with a bunch of polished liars. Better use networking and referrals, and Internet-based resources. --vadim On Sat, 8 Nov 2003, John Brown (CV) wrote: so negotiate with the recruiter. benifits of a recuriter are: * they take the twit calls * they read thru the resumes and sort the junk out * they do the screening * they do the reference and background checks * they have more resources to find people than you do this saves you time and money on your end. time better spent building customer base, solving customer problems, etc. and if you do a good contract with the recruiter, if the person you hire is sacked, they find you a new one at no cost :) On Sat, Nov 08, 2003 at 05:16:46PM -0500, Fisher, Shawn wrote: If this question is inappropriate for this list I apoligize in advance. I have several open engineering positions that I am trying to fill without the use of a recruiter. My thoughts on using a recruiter is they end up extracting a fee from the employer that would be better put to the future employee. My question, what is the most effective way to recruit quality engineers? Does anyone have experience or opinions to share? TIA, Shawn
