Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Stuck with a stuck dekatron
Hi Paolo, There are two envelope sizes for the 6167/439A. I have not analyzed whether they are date-related or otherwise different. There are also some tubes clearly Kr-85 marked, as you mentioned. I don't recall what readings I had on my Geiger counter back when I tested them, but other tubes I own were more active. I have made another DropBox file with photos of both 6167 and 439A tubes of all the types I had at the time. There is even one specifically marked as NON-JAN. Link is here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/1nl36d0y87k6qsg/WE%20Pix%20Archive.zip?dl=0 Be sure to turn down the volume on the .MOV file of a 439A spinning, unless you like heavy metal ;) Yours, Mike On Wednesday, March 2, 2022 at 7:07:14 AM UTC-5 Dekatron42 wrote: > Have you tried the last circuit in the datasheet above ( > https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5f0983034219c6086e8100ac/t/5f4566168ede3e5edceb395e/1598383652854/439A.pdf) > > which uses an RC-network on each cathode? > > I've not tried this on a 6167 but on some other older types it is > necessary to get them to run properly and I've also tested it on other > types when I've had problem (or no data) getting them to run and in some > cases I have succeeded to get them to run well enough that they later > started to run in a normal circuit. > > /Martin > > On Tuesday, 1 March 2022 at 15:26:17 UTC+1 Paolo Cravero wrote: > >> Hello. >> I still cannot get these WE6167 spin uniformly. I might have stray >> capacitances on the breadboard, but I won't invest in a spinner PCB with >> this huge doubt. I do have some findings and thoughts to share. >> >> The 10 output cathodes can be used to control the glow of each dot since >> they do illuminate like a Nixie with a 200-230V anode voltage at 1-3 mA. >> Actually there are eleven cathodes as there is a normal - zero - control. >> It is cheating, I know, but it will then be able to visually spin >> counter-clockwise too! Also I will not need 400+ V and the same circuit can >> control a symbol Nixie. The drawback is that it will need a microcontroller. >> >> While trying all sorts of modifications to the spinner circuit, I noticed >> that the most stubborn 6167 was made in 1955 (its K10 needs at least 225V >> to light up in "Nixie mode"!) while the rest were assembled in 1958. In the >> attached picture you can see how* the 1955 tube in the middle has a >> shorter rounder dome*. The dirt on the glass is a sticky leftover of a >> wax paper(?) that wrapped the tubes. >> >> I might look through the glass for construction differences but I stored >> the 1955's 6167 away since it is mildly radioactive. On my >> Geiger-Muller counter sensitive to hard-beta and gamma the 1955's 6167 >> produces a 3x increase in CPM vs background while those from 1958 don't >> make a difference. Note that *neither the glass bulb nor the box mention >> the content of radioactive material* (nor the datasheet). Citing myself >> (Wed, Nov 4, 2020, 1:12 PM to neonixie-l) "*Same goes for other 6140 >> except for one, much older from 12/52 marked 423A. Neither the box nor the >> glass carry any warning sign, but this tube hits >600 CPM vs 40 CPM >> background*". Looks like that up to at least 1955 it was not required to >> declare the content of radioactive material inside vacuum tubes (and that >> W.E. was pretty generous on the amount used ;) IMVHO ). >> >> Last but not least I forgot I had inserted in my eBay watchlist item >> #202784117971, a Western Electric burst timer. That's another device that >> might have been documented online. >> >> Paolo >> >> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "neonixie-l" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/c6351f63-daf2-4797-9e9d-4bcdab312131n%40googlegroups.com.
Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Stuck with a stuck dekatron
Have you tried the last circuit in the datasheet above (https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5f0983034219c6086e8100ac/t/5f4566168ede3e5edceb395e/1598383652854/439A.pdf) which uses an RC-network on each cathode? I've not tried this on a 6167 but on some other older types it is necessary to get them to run properly and I've also tested it on other types when I've had problem (or no data) getting them to run and in some cases I have succeeded to get them to run well enough that they later started to run in a normal circuit. /Martin On Tuesday, 1 March 2022 at 15:26:17 UTC+1 Paolo Cravero wrote: > Hello. > I still cannot get these WE6167 spin uniformly. I might have stray > capacitances on the breadboard, but I won't invest in a spinner PCB with > this huge doubt. I do have some findings and thoughts to share. > > The 10 output cathodes can be used to control the glow of each dot since > they do illuminate like a Nixie with a 200-230V anode voltage at 1-3 mA. > Actually there are eleven cathodes as there is a normal - zero - control. > It is cheating, I know, but it will then be able to visually spin > counter-clockwise too! Also I will not need 400+ V and the same circuit can > control a symbol Nixie. The drawback is that it will need a microcontroller. > > While trying all sorts of modifications to the spinner circuit, I noticed > that the most stubborn 6167 was made in 1955 (its K10 needs at least 225V > to light up in "Nixie mode"!) while the rest were assembled in 1958. In the > attached picture you can see how* the 1955 tube in the middle has a > shorter rounder dome*. The dirt on the glass is a sticky leftover of a > wax paper(?) that wrapped the tubes. > > I might look through the glass for construction differences but I stored > the 1955's 6167 away since it is mildly radioactive. On my > Geiger-Muller counter sensitive to hard-beta and gamma the 1955's 6167 > produces a 3x increase in CPM vs background while those from 1958 don't > make a difference. Note that *neither the glass bulb nor the box mention > the content of radioactive material* (nor the datasheet). Citing myself > (Wed, Nov 4, 2020, 1:12 PM to neonixie-l) "*Same goes for other 6140 > except for one, much older from 12/52 marked 423A. Neither the box nor the > glass carry any warning sign, but this tube hits >600 CPM vs 40 CPM > background*". Looks like that up to at least 1955 it was not required to > declare the content of radioactive material inside vacuum tubes (and that > W.E. was pretty generous on the amount used ;) IMVHO ). > > Last but not least I forgot I had inserted in my eBay watchlist item > #202784117971, a Western Electric burst timer. That's another device that > might have been documented online. > > Paolo > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "neonixie-l" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/abc11d83-6d64-400b-a096-7cf9d406ef35n%40googlegroups.com.
Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Stuck with a stuck dekatron
Thank you Mike for the Analog Guidance Computer hint. It seems someone has been documenting it/them online: that's a route to follow to locate a schematic diagram. And Martin's 439A datasheet is very helpful too. At least it is complete. I haven't made much progress, except that I even got the glow to stop in the "pick-up tabs". Also I have observed that the spinner stopped as room temperature decreased. Guides control voltage swings between +106V and -30V with respect to K1-K9 output cathodes, but even +106/-70V doesn't get a reliable spin. Next I will try to reduce the positive bias and to put a radiation source close to the tube, just in case it was doped with Kr-85 that would have very little activity left by now. I think that kind of doping was more important on tubes that needed a fast switch-on time while 439A/6167 was a slow dekatron. Paolo -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "neonixie-l" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/CABj2Vabe4fGTw0BE_F3fn%3DAdcvNx5BYVtSNhFAN%3D-RU8qhTxbA%40mail.gmail.com.
Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Stuck with a stuck dekatron
Wow, Martin! Your memory is much better than mine ;) I just had another look through my old files and the patents were in my Nixie folder, not the Dekatron one. I have uploaded a small collection to my DropBox: https://www.dropbox.com/s/gtxboyvkna7j8dt/6167%20Docs.zip?dl=0 Yours, Mike On Friday, February 25, 2022 at 2:52:12 PM UTC-5 Dekatron42 wrote: > There's another nice datasheet with a lot of information here: > https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5f0983034219c6086e8100ac/t/5f4566168ede3e5edceb395e/1598383652854/439A.pdf > > @mjrippe: If my mind doesn't play tricks on me I think I got some > Telephone related patents from you after you mentioned them in this thread > where I asked for help to get my 6167/WE439A to run: > https://groups.google.com/g/neonixie-l/c/xn7QcomQZSg > > /Martin > > On Friday, 25 February 2022 at 18:08:14 UTC+1 mjrippe wrote: > >> >I wish we knew which device used W.E. 6167 dekatrons so that we could >> have a look at the diagram... >> >> Hi Paolo, >> >> I did some research on these tubes about a decade ago. There was not >> much info available, perhaps more to be found now. Here is the one use >> case I did find - good luck finding out more! >> >> From AAFM Vol. 6, No. 1 March, 1998 (Association of Air Force >> Missileers) >> >> Origin of the Ground Guidance System The Titan I >> guidance system was developed by Bell Telephone Laboratories >> (BTL). It started as a WW II shipboard radar, >> built by Western Electric Company, and grew to include >> an analog guidance computer for guiding early experimental >> rockets and the Nike-series missiles. The analog >> computer used two large motor-driven oil-filled sinecosine >> potentiometers and lots of op amps to generate >> the guidance equation. A bank of ten turn >> potentiometers provided variables to the guidance >> equation, so that roll-over and changes in acceleration >> could be programmed. The whole thing was sequenced >> by some little Western Electric 6167 ten-step pixie tubes. >> It used electron tubes, for this was before the proliferation >> of the transistor, and mean time between failures was >> acceptable for that era, but short. >> >> >> Yours, >> Mike >> >> On Thursday, February 24, 2022 at 6:58:00 AM UTC-5 Paolo Cravero wrote: >> >>> On Wed, Feb 23, 2022 at 11:04 PM Jon wrote: >>> >>> Thanks to Martin, Eric and Jon for their answers. >>> >>> However, if I understand Paolo's post, he's using Mike Moorrees's circuit (https://threeneurons.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/we6167ckt.gif) which leaves the auxiliary anode disconnected. When I ran 6167s in this configuration they were generally much more reliable in not sticking on K10, though I was using rather different circuit conditions: - Va = +400V with respect to main cathodes - Transfer pulses 60V amplitude from a resting bias +30V with respect to main cathodes - Anode current 1.3mA Paolo, can you confirm you have indeed left pin 5 unconnected? >>> >>> Yes, I confirm I used that circuit from A to Z. Then I varied the bias >>> voltage and/or anode current (up to 1.5 mA), but both auxiliary anode and >>> reset were floating. >>> >>> I will rebuild the test setup with an external power supply that can >>> provide more current, as the LM393 booster is struggling with 2 mA at 400+ >>> V, and use zeners to derive the bias. According to Jon's list, a starting >>> point for voltages should be: >>> >>>- main cathodes +30V, >>>- transfer pulses from +60V to 0V, >>>- main anode at +430V; >>>- K10 current at 2mA which brings >>>- auxiliary anode at +115V (datasheet PDF, 4th page) >>> >>> I wish we knew which device used W.E. 6167 dekatrons so that we could >>> have a look at the diagram... >>> Paolo >>> >>> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "neonixie-l" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/3fb123b4-fa8b-4dd0-8496-570bea81a68bn%40googlegroups.com.
Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Stuck with a stuck dekatron
There's another nice datasheet with a lot of information here: https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5f0983034219c6086e8100ac/t/5f4566168ede3e5edceb395e/1598383652854/439A.pdf @mjrippe: If my mind doesn't play tricks on me I think I got some Telephone related patents from you after you mentioned them in this thread where I asked for help to get my 6167/WE439A to run: https://groups.google.com/g/neonixie-l/c/xn7QcomQZSg /Martin On Friday, 25 February 2022 at 18:08:14 UTC+1 mjrippe wrote: > >I wish we knew which device used W.E. 6167 dekatrons so that we could > have a look at the diagram... > > Hi Paolo, > > I did some research on these tubes about a decade ago. There was not much > info available, perhaps more to be found now. Here is the one use case I > did find - good luck finding out more! > > From AAFM Vol. 6, No. 1 March, 1998 (Association of Air Force Missileers) > > Origin of the Ground Guidance System The Titan I > guidance system was developed by Bell Telephone Laboratories > (BTL). It started as a WW II shipboard radar, > built by Western Electric Company, and grew to include > an analog guidance computer for guiding early experimental > rockets and the Nike-series missiles. The analog > computer used two large motor-driven oil-filled sinecosine > potentiometers and lots of op amps to generate > the guidance equation. A bank of ten turn > potentiometers provided variables to the guidance > equation, so that roll-over and changes in acceleration > could be programmed. The whole thing was sequenced > by some little Western Electric 6167 ten-step pixie tubes. > It used electron tubes, for this was before the proliferation > of the transistor, and mean time between failures was > acceptable for that era, but short. > > > Yours, > Mike > > On Thursday, February 24, 2022 at 6:58:00 AM UTC-5 Paolo Cravero wrote: > >> On Wed, Feb 23, 2022 at 11:04 PM Jon wrote: >> >> Thanks to Martin, Eric and Jon for their answers. >> >> However, if I understand Paolo's post, he's using Mike Moorrees's circuit >>> (https://threeneurons.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/we6167ckt.gif) which >>> leaves the auxiliary anode disconnected. When I ran 6167s in this >>> configuration they were generally much more reliable in not sticking on >>> K10, though I was using rather different circuit conditions: >>> >>>- Va = +400V with respect to main cathodes >>>- Transfer pulses 60V amplitude from a resting bias +30V with >>>respect to main cathodes >>>- Anode current 1.3mA >>> >>> >>> Paolo, can you confirm you have indeed left pin 5 unconnected? >>> >> >> Yes, I confirm I used that circuit from A to Z. Then I varied the bias >> voltage and/or anode current (up to 1.5 mA), but both auxiliary anode and >> reset were floating. >> >> I will rebuild the test setup with an external power supply that can >> provide more current, as the LM393 booster is struggling with 2 mA at 400+ >> V, and use zeners to derive the bias. According to Jon's list, a starting >> point for voltages should be: >> >>- main cathodes +30V, >>- transfer pulses from +60V to 0V, >>- main anode at +430V; >>- K10 current at 2mA which brings >>- auxiliary anode at +115V (datasheet PDF, 4th page) >> >> I wish we knew which device used W.E. 6167 dekatrons so that we could >> have a look at the diagram... >> Paolo >> >> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "neonixie-l" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/ba9e2178-133d-4456-b83f-a07effbbfba7n%40googlegroups.com.
Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Stuck with a stuck dekatron
>I wish we knew which device used W.E. 6167 dekatrons so that we could have a look at the diagram... Hi Paolo, I did some research on these tubes about a decade ago. There was not much info available, perhaps more to be found now. Here is the one use case I did find - good luck finding out more! >From AAFM Vol. 6, No. 1 March, 1998 (Association of Air Force Missileers) Origin of the Ground Guidance System The Titan I guidance system was developed by Bell Telephone Laboratories (BTL). It started as a WW II shipboard radar, built by Western Electric Company, and grew to include an analog guidance computer for guiding early experimental rockets and the Nike-series missiles. The analog computer used two large motor-driven oil-filled sinecosine potentiometers and lots of op amps to generate the guidance equation. A bank of ten turn potentiometers provided variables to the guidance equation, so that roll-over and changes in acceleration could be programmed. The whole thing was sequenced by some little Western Electric 6167 ten-step pixie tubes. It used electron tubes, for this was before the proliferation of the transistor, and mean time between failures was acceptable for that era, but short. Yours, Mike On Thursday, February 24, 2022 at 6:58:00 AM UTC-5 Paolo Cravero wrote: > On Wed, Feb 23, 2022 at 11:04 PM Jon wrote: > > Thanks to Martin, Eric and Jon for their answers. > > However, if I understand Paolo's post, he's using Mike Moorrees's circuit ( >> https://threeneurons.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/we6167ckt.gif) which >> leaves the auxiliary anode disconnected. When I ran 6167s in this >> configuration they were generally much more reliable in not sticking on >> K10, though I was using rather different circuit conditions: >> >>- Va = +400V with respect to main cathodes >>- Transfer pulses 60V amplitude from a resting bias +30V with respect >>to main cathodes >>- Anode current 1.3mA >> >> >> Paolo, can you confirm you have indeed left pin 5 unconnected? >> > > Yes, I confirm I used that circuit from A to Z. Then I varied the bias > voltage and/or anode current (up to 1.5 mA), but both auxiliary anode and > reset were floating. > > I will rebuild the test setup with an external power supply that can > provide more current, as the LM393 booster is struggling with 2 mA at 400+ > V, and use zeners to derive the bias. According to Jon's list, a starting > point for voltages should be: > >- main cathodes +30V, >- transfer pulses from +60V to 0V, >- main anode at +430V; >- K10 current at 2mA which brings >- auxiliary anode at +115V (datasheet PDF, 4th page) > > I wish we knew which device used W.E. 6167 dekatrons so that we could have > a look at the diagram... > Paolo > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "neonixie-l" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/45272f0f-f2c6-4b6f-a9f7-6acc1dcd332dn%40googlegroups.com.
Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Stuck with a stuck dekatron
On Wed, Feb 23, 2022 at 11:04 PM Jon wrote: Thanks to Martin, Eric and Jon for their answers. However, if I understand Paolo's post, he's using Mike Moorrees's circuit ( > https://threeneurons.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/we6167ckt.gif) which > leaves the auxiliary anode disconnected. When I ran 6167s in this > configuration they were generally much more reliable in not sticking on > K10, though I was using rather different circuit conditions: > >- Va = +400V with respect to main cathodes >- Transfer pulses 60V amplitude from a resting bias +30V with respect >to main cathodes >- Anode current 1.3mA > > > Paolo, can you confirm you have indeed left pin 5 unconnected? > Yes, I confirm I used that circuit from A to Z. Then I varied the bias voltage and/or anode current (up to 1.5 mA), but both auxiliary anode and reset were floating. I will rebuild the test setup with an external power supply that can provide more current, as the LM393 booster is struggling with 2 mA at 400+ V, and use zeners to derive the bias. According to Jon's list, a starting point for voltages should be: - main cathodes +30V, - transfer pulses from +60V to 0V, - main anode at +430V; - K10 current at 2mA which brings - auxiliary anode at +115V (datasheet PDF, 4th page) I wish we knew which device used W.E. 6167 dekatrons so that we could have a look at the diagram... Paolo -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "neonixie-l" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/CABj2VaZfJG8D-06tBKeqby42mZ9UKhe8G2foez2KupcYpsAM%3DA%40mail.gmail.com.
Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Stuck with a stuck dekatron
I forgot to mention that when I am "un-sticking" a Dekatron I just connect all cathodes together so they don't have differing potentials, with or without one common cathode resistor for all cathodes. /Martin On Wednesday, 23 February 2022 at 23:56:50 UTC+1 Tidak Ada wrote: > Thanks John, that is useful information! > Yes, you confirm my fear. Fortunately I bought the tube as am collecting > item, > Eric > > Verstuurd vanaf mijn iPhone > > Op 23 feb. 2022 om 23:21 heeft Jon het volgende > geschreven: > > To Eric's question on the N3... > > > These are also rather tricky tubes. My experience is similar to Martin's - > unfortunately many examples of N3 are non-functional in that they won't > even strike a glow - outgassed or similar. I fear that if you can't raise a > glow with a violet ray unit or plasma globe then yours may be dead :( > > But if you do find a working N3 or N4, then the conditions below work for > me: > >- Va = +350V with respect to main cathodes >- Transfer pulses 30V amplitude from a resting bias +15V with respect >to main cathodes >- Anode current 1.6mA (82K anode resistor, 8K2 cathode resistors) > > It's quite an unusual design with relatively low anode and transfer > electrode voltages. If the anode voltage or current is too high, it's easy > to get multiple cathodes glowing instead of just one which can mess up the > stepping. > > Jon. > > > On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 10:04:53 PM UTC Jon wrote: > >> The sticking on K10 specifically is a peculiarity of the 6167 in my >> experience. I believe it's distinct from the sleeping sickness effect that >> Martin describes as that is essentially random in which cathodes are >> affected (and as he says, working the tube, possibly at elevated current, >> in both directions where possible, is usually an effective cure). >> >> I mostly saw K10 sticking when I was exploring a circuit that makes use >> of the unique auxiliary anode connection (pin 5) which of course lies >> adjacent to K10. What seems to be happening was that when the glow gets to >> K10 there is current flow from both the main anode and auxiliary anode. The >> next transfer pulse moves the glow onto the transfer electrode, but when it >> terminates the auxiliary anode-K10 gap is still sufficiently primed so that >> the glow mostly steps back to K10 rather than forward to K1. I was able to >> mitigate this by reducing the auxiliary anode potential below what I'd >> originally understood it needed to be from the datasheet (the datasheet is >> really opaque on this point), and also by lengthening the transfer pulse to >> allow more deionisation time. >> >> However, if I understand Paolo's post, he's using Mike Moorrees's circuit >> (https://threeneurons.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/we6167ckt.gif) which >> leaves the auxiliary anode disconnected. When I ran 6167s in this >> configuration they were generally much more reliable in not sticking on >> K10, though I was using rather different circuit conditions: >> >>- Va = +400V with respect to main cathodes >>- Transfer pulses 60V amplitude from a resting bias +30V with respect >>to main cathodes >>- Anode current 1.3mA >> >> >> Paolo, can you confirm you have indeed left pin 5 unconnected? If so, >> given that the sticking effect seems to be increasing with tube use, I >> wonder if we're seeing the floating auxiliary anode gradually charging up >> and eventually reaching a potential which is disrupting the stepping >> operation. Maybe use a potentiometer or potential divider to pin the >> auxiliary anode at some moderate voltage positive to the main cathodes (say >> +100V as a starting point) and see if that helps? >> >> They're funky tubes... >> >> Jon. >> >> >> On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 8:37:58 AM UTC Paolo Cravero wrote: >> >>> Hello. >>> I am stuck with a stubborn WE-6167 dekatron ( >>> http://www.tube-tester.com/sites/nixie/dat_arch/6167.pdf seems to be >>> the only document available). >>> >>> The tube is NIB made in 1958. I understand it is a single guide >>> dekatron, and the stepping cathodes are split in two groups 1-5 and 6-10. >>> >>> I built the circuit as per Mike's diagram ( >>> http://www.tube-tester.com/sites/nixie/dat_arch/6167.pdf) and it span >>> correctly. I let it run for few minutes and then it got stuck at K10. >>> Through the glass I can see that it attempts to jump ahead, but the main >>> glow stays on K10. Fiddling with wires I could get it have one round up to >>> K10. The more it runs the more it gets stickier. The relaxation oscillator >>> never stops. >>> >>> I suspected some resistor overheating or changing value, but even after >>> hours of power-off, it doesn't go beyond K10. Or it simply powers up at K10 >>> and doesn't step over, while it does visually try to jump. >>> >>> Voltages are 450V/225V (input at 12V is 220 mA). Anode current is 1 mA >>> (I increased the anode resistor to 250k) while the c
Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Stuck with a stuck dekatron
Thanks John, that is useful information! Yes, you confirm my fear. Fortunately I bought the tube as am collecting item, Eric Verstuurd vanaf mijn iPhone > Op 23 feb. 2022 om 23:21 heeft Jon het volgende > geschreven: > > To Eric's question on the N3... > > These are also rather tricky tubes. My experience is similar to Martin's - > unfortunately many examples of N3 are non-functional in that they won't even > strike a glow - outgassed or similar. I fear that if you can't raise a glow > with a violet ray unit or plasma globe then yours may be dead :( > > But if you do find a working N3 or N4, then the conditions below work for me: > Va = +350V with respect to main cathodes > Transfer pulses 30V amplitude from a resting bias +15V with respect to main > cathodes > Anode current 1.6mA (82K anode resistor, 8K2 cathode resistors) > It's quite an unusual design with relatively low anode and transfer electrode > voltages. If the anode voltage or current is too high, it's easy to get > multiple cathodes glowing instead of just one which can mess up the stepping. > > Jon. > > >> On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 10:04:53 PM UTC Jon wrote: >> The sticking on K10 specifically is a peculiarity of the 6167 in my >> experience. I believe it's distinct from the sleeping sickness effect that >> Martin describes as that is essentially random in which cathodes are >> affected (and as he says, working the tube, possibly at elevated current, in >> both directions where possible, is usually an effective cure). >> >> I mostly saw K10 sticking when I was exploring a circuit that makes use of >> the unique auxiliary anode connection (pin 5) which of course lies adjacent >> to K10. What seems to be happening was that when the glow gets to K10 there >> is current flow from both the main anode and auxiliary anode. The next >> transfer pulse moves the glow onto the transfer electrode, but when it >> terminates the auxiliary anode-K10 gap is still sufficiently primed so that >> the glow mostly steps back to K10 rather than forward to K1. I was able to >> mitigate this by reducing the auxiliary anode potential below what I'd >> originally understood it needed to be from the datasheet (the datasheet is >> really opaque on this point), and also by lengthening the transfer pulse to >> allow more deionisation time. >> >> However, if I understand Paolo's post, he's using Mike Moorrees's circuit >> (https://threeneurons.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/we6167ckt.gif) which >> leaves the auxiliary anode disconnected. When I ran 6167s in this >> configuration they were generally much more reliable in not sticking on K10, >> though I was using rather different circuit conditions: >> Va = +400V with respect to main cathodes >> Transfer pulses 60V amplitude from a resting bias +30V with respect to main >> cathodes >> Anode current 1.3mA >> >> Paolo, can you confirm you have indeed left pin 5 unconnected? If so, given >> that the sticking effect seems to be increasing with tube use, I wonder if >> we're seeing the floating auxiliary anode gradually charging up and >> eventually reaching a potential which is disrupting the stepping operation. >> Maybe use a potentiometer or potential divider to pin the auxiliary anode at >> some moderate voltage positive to the main cathodes (say +100V as a starting >> point) and see if that helps? >> >> They're funky tubes... >> >> Jon. >> >> >>> On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 8:37:58 AM UTC Paolo Cravero wrote: >>> Hello. >>> I am stuck with a stubborn WE-6167 dekatron >>> (http://www.tube-tester.com/sites/nixie/dat_arch/6167.pdf seems to be the >>> only document available). >>> >>> The tube is NIB made in 1958. I understand it is a single guide dekatron, >>> and the stepping cathodes are split in two groups 1-5 and 6-10. >>> >>> I built the circuit as per Mike's diagram >>> (http://www.tube-tester.com/sites/nixie/dat_arch/6167.pdf) and it span >>> correctly. I let it run for few minutes and then it got stuck at K10. >>> Through the glass I can see that it attempts to jump ahead, but the main >>> glow stays on K10. Fiddling with wires I could get it have one round up to >>> K10. The more it runs the more it gets stickier. The relaxation oscillator >>> never stops. >>> >>> I suspected some resistor overheating or changing value, but even after >>> hours of power-off, it doesn't go beyond K10. Or it simply powers up at K10 >>> and doesn't step over, while it does visually try to jump. >>> >>> Voltages are 450V/225V (input at 12V is 220 mA). Anode current is 1 mA (I >>> increased the anode resistor to 250k) while the current coming out of the >>> active cathode(s) is 1.5 mA. Stepping goes from 200V down to 2V (green >>> trace). Anode voltage (450 V) doesn't sag noticeably and inductor+IRF get >>> barely warm. The yellow trace in the oscilloscope shot is measured at the >>> "+58V" point (yes, I did try to move that voltage up and down with
[neonixie-l] Re: Stuck with a stuck dekatron
To Eric's question on the N3... These are also rather tricky tubes. My experience is similar to Martin's - unfortunately many examples of N3 are non-functional in that they won't even strike a glow - outgassed or similar. I fear that if you can't raise a glow with a violet ray unit or plasma globe then yours may be dead :( But if you do find a working N3 or N4, then the conditions below work for me: - Va = +350V with respect to main cathodes - Transfer pulses 30V amplitude from a resting bias +15V with respect to main cathodes - Anode current 1.6mA (82K anode resistor, 8K2 cathode resistors) It's quite an unusual design with relatively low anode and transfer electrode voltages. If the anode voltage or current is too high, it's easy to get multiple cathodes glowing instead of just one which can mess up the stepping. Jon. On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 10:04:53 PM UTC Jon wrote: > The sticking on K10 specifically is a peculiarity of the 6167 in my > experience. I believe it's distinct from the sleeping sickness effect that > Martin describes as that is essentially random in which cathodes are > affected (and as he says, working the tube, possibly at elevated current, > in both directions where possible, is usually an effective cure). > > I mostly saw K10 sticking when I was exploring a circuit that makes use of > the unique auxiliary anode connection (pin 5) which of course lies adjacent > to K10. What seems to be happening was that when the glow gets to K10 there > is current flow from both the main anode and auxiliary anode. The next > transfer pulse moves the glow onto the transfer electrode, but when it > terminates the auxiliary anode-K10 gap is still sufficiently primed so that > the glow mostly steps back to K10 rather than forward to K1. I was able to > mitigate this by reducing the auxiliary anode potential below what I'd > originally understood it needed to be from the datasheet (the datasheet is > really opaque on this point), and also by lengthening the transfer pulse to > allow more deionisation time. > > However, if I understand Paolo's post, he's using Mike Moorrees's circuit ( > https://threeneurons.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/we6167ckt.gif) which > leaves the auxiliary anode disconnected. When I ran 6167s in this > configuration they were generally much more reliable in not sticking on > K10, though I was using rather different circuit conditions: > >- Va = +400V with respect to main cathodes >- Transfer pulses 60V amplitude from a resting bias +30V with respect >to main cathodes >- Anode current 1.3mA > > > Paolo, can you confirm you have indeed left pin 5 unconnected? If so, > given that the sticking effect seems to be increasing with tube use, I > wonder if we're seeing the floating auxiliary anode gradually charging up > and eventually reaching a potential which is disrupting the stepping > operation. Maybe use a potentiometer or potential divider to pin the > auxiliary anode at some moderate voltage positive to the main cathodes (say > +100V as a starting point) and see if that helps? > > They're funky tubes... > > Jon. > > > On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 8:37:58 AM UTC Paolo Cravero wrote: > >> Hello. >> I am stuck with a stubborn WE-6167 dekatron ( >> http://www.tube-tester.com/sites/nixie/dat_arch/6167.pdf seems to be the >> only document available). >> >> The tube is NIB made in 1958. I understand it is a single guide dekatron, >> and the stepping cathodes are split in two groups 1-5 and 6-10. >> >> I built the circuit as per Mike's diagram ( >> http://www.tube-tester.com/sites/nixie/dat_arch/6167.pdf) and it span >> correctly. I let it run for few minutes and then it got stuck at K10. >> Through the glass I can see that it attempts to jump ahead, but the main >> glow stays on K10. Fiddling with wires I could get it have one round up to >> K10. The more it runs the more it gets stickier. The relaxation oscillator >> never stops. >> >> I suspected some resistor overheating or changing value, but even after >> hours of power-off, it doesn't go beyond K10. Or it simply powers up at K10 >> and doesn't step over, while it does visually try to jump. >> >> Voltages are 450V/225V (input at 12V is 220 mA). Anode current is 1 mA (I >> increased the anode resistor to 250k) while the current coming out of the >> active cathode(s) is 1.5 mA. Stepping goes from 200V down to 2V (green >> trace). Anode voltage (450 V) doesn't sag noticeably and inductor+IRF get >> barely warm. The yellow trace in the oscilloscope shot is measured at the >> "+58V" point (yes, I did try to move that voltage up and down with no >> difference). >> >> >> Then I opened a second new in box WE-6167. It ran correctly for a minute, >> perhaps 100 rounds, then it started hiccupping (I think between K5 and K6) >> and finally got stuck on K10 with the flicker towards the stepping cathode. >> >> It must be something with these tubes. D
[neonixie-l] Re: Stuck with a stuck dekatron
The sticking on K10 specifically is a peculiarity of the 6167 in my experience. I believe it's distinct from the sleeping sickness effect that Martin describes as that is essentially random in which cathodes are affected (and as he says, working the tube, possibly at elevated current, in both directions where possible, is usually an effective cure). I mostly saw K10 sticking when I was exploring a circuit that makes use of the unique auxiliary anode connection (pin 5) which of course lies adjacent to K10. What seems to be happening was that when the glow gets to K10 there is current flow from both the main anode and auxiliary anode. The next transfer pulse moves the glow onto the transfer electrode, but when it terminates the auxiliary anode-K10 gap is still sufficiently primed so that the glow mostly steps back to K10 rather than forward to K1. I was able to mitigate this by reducing the auxiliary anode potential below what I'd originally understood it needed to be from the datasheet (the datasheet is really opaque on this point), and also by lengthening the transfer pulse to allow more deionisation time. However, if I understand Paolo's post, he's using Mike Moorrees's circuit ( https://threeneurons.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/we6167ckt.gif) which leaves the auxiliary anode disconnected. When I ran 6167s in this configuration they were generally much more reliable in not sticking on K10, though I was using rather different circuit conditions: - Va = +400V with respect to main cathodes - Transfer pulses 60V amplitude from a resting bias +30V with respect to main cathodes - Anode current 1.3mA Paolo, can you confirm you have indeed left pin 5 unconnected? If so, given that the sticking effect seems to be increasing with tube use, I wonder if we're seeing the floating auxiliary anode gradually charging up and eventually reaching a potential which is disrupting the stepping operation. Maybe use a potentiometer or potential divider to pin the auxiliary anode at some moderate voltage positive to the main cathodes (say +100V as a starting point) and see if that helps? They're funky tubes... Jon. On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 8:37:58 AM UTC Paolo Cravero wrote: > Hello. > I am stuck with a stubborn WE-6167 dekatron ( > http://www.tube-tester.com/sites/nixie/dat_arch/6167.pdf seems to be the > only document available). > > The tube is NIB made in 1958. I understand it is a single guide dekatron, > and the stepping cathodes are split in two groups 1-5 and 6-10. > > I built the circuit as per Mike's diagram ( > http://www.tube-tester.com/sites/nixie/dat_arch/6167.pdf) and it span > correctly. I let it run for few minutes and then it got stuck at K10. > Through the glass I can see that it attempts to jump ahead, but the main > glow stays on K10. Fiddling with wires I could get it have one round up to > K10. The more it runs the more it gets stickier. The relaxation oscillator > never stops. > > I suspected some resistor overheating or changing value, but even after > hours of power-off, it doesn't go beyond K10. Or it simply powers up at K10 > and doesn't step over, while it does visually try to jump. > > Voltages are 450V/225V (input at 12V is 220 mA). Anode current is 1 mA (I > increased the anode resistor to 250k) while the current coming out of the > active cathode(s) is 1.5 mA. Stepping goes from 200V down to 2V (green > trace). Anode voltage (450 V) doesn't sag noticeably and inductor+IRF get > barely warm. The yellow trace in the oscilloscope shot is measured at the > "+58V" point (yes, I did try to move that voltage up and down with no > difference). > > > Then I opened a second new in box WE-6167. It ran correctly for a minute, > perhaps 100 rounds, then it started hiccupping (I think between K5 and K6) > and finally got stuck on K10 with the flicker towards the stepping cathode. > > It must be something with these tubes. Does anyone remember a similar > behaviour in never used dekatrons? I've read of deks needing a high current > "preparation", but not of them failing after a good start. I would like to > get out of the K10 position! > > Thanks, > Paolo > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "neonixie-l" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/a5921b69-9cb2-49c2-b543-283ab0a889d9n%40googlegroups.com.
Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Stuck with a stuck dekatron
When I had initial problems with my A101, I increased the steering voltage by using a larger cathode resistor and it's worked flawlessly ever since. I couldn't tell from posted scope trace what the measurement was. Also, you want to have overlapping waveforms, with no dead-time, to ensure the gas is always ionized. Again, with my A101 as an example, I have 3 driver transistors, A, B, and C where "A" is all 10 cathodes tied together, and B & C are the steering cathodes. The 6-stage sequence is A-> AB ->B ->BC -> C -> CA -> A (repeat). To reverse the direction, swap the sequencing of B &C. On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 1:33:00 PM UTC-8 Tidak Ada wrote: > Hi Martin, > > > > No, I was not aware, despite Giorgio is a friend of me…. > > > > Thanks for your tip and experience > > > > Eric > > > > > > *Van:* neoni...@googlegroups.com [mailto:neoni...@googlegroups.com] *Namens > *Dekatron42 > *Verzonden:* woensdag 23 februari 2022 13:06 > *Aan:* neonixie-l > *Onderwerp:* Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Stuck with a stuck dekatron > > > > Regarding the Pressler N3, I hope you have seen the datasheet here: > http://lampes-et-tubes.info/cd/N3.pdf > > > > Out of the bunch that I own of these only a few are running (and maybe > half are out-gassed and some have mechanical faults like loose welds and > pins rumbling around inside the envelope) with the original circuit. > > > > /Martin > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, 23 February 2022 at 12:04:19 UTC+1 Tidak Ada wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > > > Unfortunately no further info here. > > A guess is it a kind of cathode poisoning?? > > > > Did you already contact the *TCA* [ tubecollecto...@groups.io ]. They are > based in the USA, so the chance is greater there is info to find. > > > > I have the same problem with a rare Pressler N3 dekatron. Anybody her who > can help me on data and applications? > > The Pressler N3 is a WW-II tube with a 8 pin ‘German Stahlrohren’ base. > > I have no data and therefore no clue how to drive the tube. > > Trying to light up the tube with a blue-ray machine did not work > > > > Cheers, > > Eric > > > > *Van:* neoni...@googlegroups.com [mailto:neoni...@googlegroups.com] *Namens > *Dekatron42 > *Verzonden:* woensdag 23 februari 2022 10:09 > *Aan:* neonixie-l > *Onderwerp:* [neonixie-l] Re: Stuck with a stuck dekatron > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "neonixie-l" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to neonixie-l+...@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/ec4d3629-f38a-4fcc-9ffd-3044de6fa6a3n%40googlegroups.com > > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/ec4d3629-f38a-4fcc-9ffd-3044de6fa6a3n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "neonixie-l" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/5e3fd4ae-7fa4-44f0-8bed-f242792e34d6n%40googlegroups.com.
RE: [neonixie-l] Re: Stuck with a stuck dekatron
Hi Martin, No, I was not aware, despite Giorgio is a friend of me…. Thanks for your tip and experience Eric Van: neonixie-l@googlegroups.com [mailto:neonixie-l@googlegroups.com] Namens Dekatron42 Verzonden: woensdag 23 februari 2022 13:06 Aan: neonixie-l Onderwerp: Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Stuck with a stuck dekatron Regarding the Pressler N3, I hope you have seen the datasheet here: <http://lampes-et-tubes.info/cd/N3.pdf> http://lampes-et-tubes.info/cd/N3.pdf Out of the bunch that I own of these only a few are running (and maybe half are out-gassed and some have mechanical faults like loose welds and pins rumbling around inside the envelope) with the original circuit. /Martin On Wednesday, 23 February 2022 at 12:04:19 UTC+1 Tidak Ada wrote: Hi all, Unfortunately no further info here. A guess is it a kind of cathode poisoning?? Did you already contact the TCA [ tubecollecto...@groups.io ]. They are based in the USA, so the chance is greater there is info to find. I have the same problem with a rare Pressler N3 dekatron. Anybody her who can help me on data and applications? The Pressler N3 is a WW-II tube with a 8 pin ‘German Stahlrohren’ base. I have no data and therefore no clue how to drive the tube. Trying to light up the tube with a blue-ray machine did not work Cheers, Eric Van: neoni...@googlegroups.com [mailto:neoni...@googlegroups.com] Namens Dekatron42 Verzonden: woensdag 23 februari 2022 10:09 Aan: neonixie-l Onderwerp: [neonixie-l] Re: Stuck with a stuck dekatron -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "neonixie-l" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/ec4d3629-f38a-4fcc-9ffd-3044de6fa6a3n%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/ec4d3629-f38a-4fcc-9ffd-3044de6fa6a3n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> . -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "neonixie-l" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/!%26!AAAYAPDddShx705MuX20yCpp0vvCgAAAEJrzn7nGxt9AqbrtMRCBr64BAA%3D%3D%40zeelandnet.nl.
Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Stuck with a stuck dekatron
Regarding the Pressler N3, I hope you have seen the datasheet here: http://lampes-et-tubes.info/cd/N3.pdf Out of the bunch that I own of these only a few are running (and maybe half are out-gassed and some have mechanical faults like loose welds and pins rumbling around inside the envelope) with the original circuit. /Martin On Wednesday, 23 February 2022 at 12:04:19 UTC+1 Tidak Ada wrote: > Hi all, > > > > > > Unfortunately no further info here. > > A guess is it a kind of cathode poisoning?? > > > > Did you already contact the *TCA* [ tubecollecto...@groups.io ]. They are > based in the USA, so the chance is greater there is info to find. > > > > I have the same problem with a rare Pressler N3 dekatron. Anybody her who > can help me on data and applications? > > The Pressler N3 is a WW-II tube with a 8 pin ‘German Stahlrohren’ base. > > I have no data and therefore no clue how to drive the tube. > > Trying to light up the tube with a blue-ray machine did not work > > > > Cheers, > > Eric > > > > *Van:* neoni...@googlegroups.com [mailto:neoni...@googlegroups.com] *Namens > *Dekatron42 > *Verzonden:* woensdag 23 februari 2022 10:09 > *Aan:* neonixie-l > *Onderwerp:* [neonixie-l] Re: Stuck with a stuck dekatron > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "neonixie-l" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/ec4d3629-f38a-4fcc-9ffd-3044de6fa6a3n%40googlegroups.com.
RE: [neonixie-l] Re: Stuck with a stuck dekatron
Hi all, Unfortunately no further info here. A guess is it a kind of cathode poisoning?? Did you already contact the TCA [ tubecollectorsassociat...@groups.io ]. They are based in the USA, so the chance is greater there is info to find. I have the same problem with a rare Pressler N3 dekatron. Anybody her who can help me on data and applications? The Pressler N3 is a WW-II tube with a 8 pin ‘German Stahlrohren’ base. I have no data and therefore no clue how to drive the tube. Trying to light up the tube with a blue-ray machine did not work Cheers, Eric Van: neonixie-l@googlegroups.com [mailto:neonixie-l@googlegroups.com] Namens Dekatron42 Verzonden: woensdag 23 februari 2022 10:09 Aan: neonixie-l Onderwerp: [neonixie-l] Re: Stuck with a stuck dekatron -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "neonixie-l" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/!%26!AAAYAPDddShx705MuX20yCpp0vvCgAAAELivC2qyakpDo/2cXjwwOMoBAA%3D%3D%40zeelandnet.nl.
[neonixie-l] Re: Stuck with a stuck dekatron
I see this a lot in some Dekatron types/brands that have been stored for a long time, some brands have fared better while being stored compared to others and some very´seldom experience this problem. I usually just increase the current either by raising the Anode voltage or decreasing the Anode resistor and then let them sit for a few hours up to a day or so and they usually start to run again past the sticky point. In those that you can reverse the rotation I sometimes switch the direction back and forth so I know that they run well in both directions. /Martin On Wednesday, 23 February 2022 at 09:37:58 UTC+1 Paolo Cravero wrote: > Hello. > I am stuck with a stubborn WE-6167 dekatron ( > http://www.tube-tester.com/sites/nixie/dat_arch/6167.pdf seems to be the > only document available). > > The tube is NIB made in 1958. I understand it is a single guide dekatron, > and the stepping cathodes are split in two groups 1-5 and 6-10. > > I built the circuit as per Mike's diagram ( > http://www.tube-tester.com/sites/nixie/dat_arch/6167.pdf) and it span > correctly. I let it run for few minutes and then it got stuck at K10. > Through the glass I can see that it attempts to jump ahead, but the main > glow stays on K10. Fiddling with wires I could get it have one round up to > K10. The more it runs the more it gets stickier. The relaxation oscillator > never stops. > > I suspected some resistor overheating or changing value, but even after > hours of power-off, it doesn't go beyond K10. Or it simply powers up at K10 > and doesn't step over, while it does visually try to jump. > > Voltages are 450V/225V (input at 12V is 220 mA). Anode current is 1 mA (I > increased the anode resistor to 250k) while the current coming out of the > active cathode(s) is 1.5 mA. Stepping goes from 200V down to 2V (green > trace). Anode voltage (450 V) doesn't sag noticeably and inductor+IRF get > barely warm. The yellow trace in the oscilloscope shot is measured at the > "+58V" point (yes, I did try to move that voltage up and down with no > difference). > > > Then I opened a second new in box WE-6167. It ran correctly for a minute, > perhaps 100 rounds, then it started hiccupping (I think between K5 and K6) > and finally got stuck on K10 with the flicker towards the stepping cathode. > > It must be something with these tubes. Does anyone remember a similar > behaviour in never used dekatrons? I've read of deks needing a high current > "preparation", but not of them failing after a good start. I would like to > get out of the K10 position! > > Thanks, > Paolo > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "neonixie-l" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/34adcb73-2abb-4bc5-bfe6-08d9d192b142n%40googlegroups.com.
