Re: [neonixie-l] Re: wrong numbers

2011-07-21 Thread John Rehwinkel 




The higher the frequency, the more a capacitor looks like a short.
The lower the frequency, the more a capacitor looks like an open.

We use those little 0.1uf ceramic caps next to fast switching IC's 
because those IC's insert fast transients onto the power rail. 
Capacitors that are placed between VDD and ground have the effect of 
making VDD "more DC like".


Another way of thinking of it is that your chips want a low-impedance 
power supply, one that doesn't change voltage when the load changes.  
The high frequency switching transients that cause trouble (since they 
can momentarily draw a couple of amperes of current) see the capacitor 
as a low impedance, which stabilizes the voltage against these current 
surges.  Wire between the capacitor and the IC contributes resistance 
and (importantly) inductance, which isolates the capacitor from the IC - 
the opposite of what you want.  So you want low inductance connections 
between the capacitor and the IC.  In practise, this amounts to short 
wires, the wider the better (a wide flat wire has lower impedance than 
the same amount of copper in a round wire).


- John KG4L

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: wrong numbers

2011-07-21 Thread Adam Jacobs 

Shorter answer:

The higher the frequency, the more a capacitor looks like a short.
The lower the frequency, the more a capacitor looks like an open.

We use those little 0.1uf ceramic caps next to fast switching IC's 
because those IC's insert fast transients onto the power rail. 
Capacitors that are placed between VDD and ground have the effect of 
making VDD "more DC like". We use the little ceramic caps for this 
purpose because they are better at passing fast transients than 
electrolytics. Electrolytics work better for longer duration (slower) 
voltage changes. You'll see electrolytics after a switching supply to 
smooth out the sawtooth, or after a bridge rectifier, etc.


Dealing with capacitors in digital circuits is pretty simple. You 
sprinkle them in. You can't go wrong putting a 0.1uf cap next to every 
IC and some electrolytics after every powersupply (and some more 0.1uf, 
if you like)... I asked my father about this practice once.. "Is every 
single one of these capacitors really needed?" He responded with the 
following joke:


An engineer, a mathematician, and a physicist are staying for the night 
in a hotel. A small fire breaks out in each room.


The mathematician awakes, sees the fire, makes some careful 
observations, and on a blackboard installed in the room, does some quick 
calculations. He exclaims "A solution exists!", and crawls back into bed 
and goes to sleep.


The physicist awakes, sees the fire, makes some careful observations, 
and does some quick calculations. Grabbing the fire extinguisher, he 
puts out the fire with one, short, well placed burst, and then crawls 
back into bed and goes back to sleep.


The engineer awakes, sees the fire, grabs the fire extinguisher, he puts 
out the fire by hosing down the entire room several times over, and then 
crawls into his bed and goes back to sleep.


-Adam



On 7/21/2011 7:19 AM, Shane Ellis wrote:
Wow, thank you for the headache so early in the morning!  I got my one 
tube circuit working, but going to a much larger uC, and more tubes, 
more noise is bound to come up, so now that I know how to decouple 
with caps, I'll be sure to add them.  Thank you all.
Such a great group.  I hope you all know how sincerely I appreciate 
the help.  I'm in love with glowing glass, and I'm in love with arcane 
technology.  Without you guys, I'd still be trying to figure out power 
supplies, and binary decoding.


Shane

On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 9:14 AM, jb-electronics 
mailto:webmas...@jb-electronics.de>> wrote:


Hi Shane,



When you say "next to" and IC, do you mean from the +5V, to ground?


Yep. There are some IC sockets who have a 100nF capacitor
connected from the pin on the bottom left to the pin on the top
right, i.e. the most common IC power pins.



Resistors I got, Capacitors frustrate me...


It is not that hard to understand: Capacitor act just like
resistors for AC. The higher the frequency, the more current can
flow through a capacitor. The complex impedance is Z :=
2*Pi*(-i)/f*C, where f is frequency in Hertz, C is the capacity in
Farad and i is the imaginary basis, e.g. i^2 = -1. This just means
that the impedance (the resistance, basically) approaches zero if
the frequency approaches infinity.

In our example: Really fast disturbances can be seen as some very
high frequency (look at the Fourier transform of the signal).
These disturbances will be shorted by the small capacitor of 100nF
due to their high frequency, so that this high frequency does not
corrupt your circuit.

Slow signals are not affected. In the other limes, the frequency
is zero (i.e. DC signals), so the impedance is infinite. We
already know that: Capacitors do not conduct DC current.

Hope this helps.

Best regards,
Jens



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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: wrong numbers

2011-07-21 Thread Shane Ellis 
Wow, thank you for the headache so early in the morning!  I got my one tube
circuit working, but going to a much larger uC, and more tubes, more noise
is bound to come up, so now that I know how to decouple with caps, I'll be
sure to add them.  Thank you all.
Such a great group.  I hope you all know how sincerely I appreciate the
help.  I'm in love with glowing glass, and I'm in love with arcane
technology.  Without you guys, I'd still be trying to figure out power
supplies, and binary decoding.

Shane

On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 9:14 AM, jb-electronics  wrote:

> **
> Hi Shane,
>
>
> When you say "next to" and IC, do you mean from the +5V, to ground?
>
>
> Yep. There are some IC sockets who have a 100nF capacitor connected from
> the pin on the bottom left to the pin on the top right, i.e. the most common
> IC power pins.
>
>
>  Resistors I got, Capacitors frustrate me...
>
>
> It is not that hard to understand: Capacitor act just like resistors for
> AC. The higher the frequency, the more current can flow through a capacitor.
> The complex impedance is Z := 2*Pi*(-i)/f*C, where f is frequency in Hertz,
> C is the capacity in Farad and i is the imaginary basis, e.g. i^2 = -1. This
> just means that the impedance (the resistance, basically) approaches zero if
> the frequency approaches infinity.
>
> In our example: Really fast disturbances can be seen as some very high
> frequency (look at the Fourier transform of the signal). These disturbances
> will be shorted by the small capacitor of 100nF due to their high frequency,
> so that this high frequency does not corrupt your circuit.
>
> Slow signals are not affected. In the other limes, the frequency is zero
> (i.e. DC signals), so the impedance is infinite. We already know that:
> Capacitors do not conduct DC current.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Best regards,
> Jens
>
>
>
>  On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 4:16 AM, Nick  wrote:
>
>> Decoupling should be done EVERY time on EVERY chip - analogue or
>> digital - right adjacent to the supply pins.
>>
>> It costs pretty much nothing, and saves a whole bunch of trouble. Just
>> do it.
>>
>> Part of the need to do this is that chips today are much much faster
>> than they used to be, so where frequency response would roll off
>> before oscillation, nowadays even standard opamps can have GBWs in the
>> MHz to 10s of MHz range, and logic goes far far higher.
>>
>> On the analogue side, I'm currently restoring some Quad amps - the
>> amount of pure twaddle on the www about using loony opamps like the
>> OPA627 and much faster (in "audiophoolery" faster = better) class A
>> drivers & output stages - recipe for high-frequency instability - the
>> circuit were designed to use the inherent limits of the original
>> devices.
>>
>> Maybe I'll just spend 1000 bucks on some speaker cables and
>> unidirectional 99.9% OFC internal cabling. Not.
>>
>> Nick
>>
>> On Jul 21, 9:50 am, jb-electronics 
>> wrote:
>>  > Hi,
>> >
>> > > (2) Sprinkle capacitors across power and ground all over your circuit.
>> > > Preferably as close to the power and ground pins of each chip as
>> > > possible. Usually they're 0.1uf (100nf) ceramic capacitors. Some big
>> > > chips require you to use several near them, so read you datasheets.
>> > > Chips are fast. Very fast. They can either generate very brief short
>> > > circuits (in the ballpark of 10nS), and/or be susceptible to these
>> > > very short glitches on the power rails.
>> >
>> > I cannot stress enough how much pain this will spare you. I recently
>> > built a combined volt- and amperemeter with a 2x16 LCD readout on a
>> > rather small pcb, and I did point-to-point-wiring like I always do, and
>> > it did not want to work. Some weird oscillations at the volts ADC. The
>> > first thing I did was inserting a 100nF cap next to every (!) IC, and
>> > bam, problem solved.
>> >
>> > Jens
>>
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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: wrong numbers

2011-07-21 Thread jb-electronics 

Hi Shane,


When you say "next to" and IC, do you mean from the +5V, to ground?


Yep. There are some IC sockets who have a 100nF capacitor connected from 
the pin on the bottom left to the pin on the top right, i.e. the most 
common IC power pins.



Resistors I got, Capacitors frustrate me...


It is not that hard to understand: Capacitor act just like resistors for 
AC. The higher the frequency, the more current can flow through a 
capacitor. The complex impedance is Z := 2*Pi*(-i)/f*C, where f is 
frequency in Hertz, C is the capacity in Farad and i is the imaginary 
basis, e.g. i^2 = -1. This just means that the impedance (the 
resistance, basically) approaches zero if the frequency approaches infinity.


In our example: Really fast disturbances can be seen as some very high 
frequency (look at the Fourier transform of the signal). These 
disturbances will be shorted by the small capacitor of 100nF due to 
their high frequency, so that this high frequency does not corrupt your 
circuit.


Slow signals are not affected. In the other limes, the frequency is zero 
(i.e. DC signals), so the impedance is infinite. We already know that: 
Capacitors do not conduct DC current.


Hope this helps.

Best regards,
Jens



On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 4:16 AM, Nick > wrote:


Decoupling should be done EVERY time on EVERY chip - analogue or
digital - right adjacent to the supply pins.

It costs pretty much nothing, and saves a whole bunch of trouble. Just
do it.

Part of the need to do this is that chips today are much much faster
than they used to be, so where frequency response would roll off
before oscillation, nowadays even standard opamps can have GBWs in the
MHz to 10s of MHz range, and logic goes far far higher.

On the analogue side, I'm currently restoring some Quad amps - the
amount of pure twaddle on the www about using loony opamps like the
OPA627 and much faster (in "audiophoolery" faster = better) class A
drivers & output stages - recipe for high-frequency instability - the
circuit were designed to use the inherent limits of the original
devices.

Maybe I'll just spend 1000 bucks on some speaker cables and
unidirectional 99.9% OFC internal cabling. Not.

Nick

On Jul 21, 9:50 am, jb-electronics mailto:webmas...@jb-electronics.de>>
wrote:
> Hi,
>
> > (2) Sprinkle capacitors across power and ground all over your
circuit.
> > Preferably as close to the power and ground pins of each chip as
> > possible. Usually they're 0.1uf (100nf) ceramic capacitors.
Some big
> > chips require you to use several near them, so read you
datasheets.
> > Chips are fast. Very fast. They can either generate very brief
short
> > circuits (in the ballpark of 10nS), and/or be susceptible to these
> > very short glitches on the power rails.
>
> I cannot stress enough how much pain this will spare you. I recently
> built a combined volt- and amperemeter with a 2x16 LCD readout on a
> rather small pcb, and I did point-to-point-wiring like I always
do, and
> it did not want to work. Some weird oscillations at the volts
ADC. The
> first thing I did was inserting a 100nF cap next to every (!)
IC, and
> bam, problem solved.
>
> Jens

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: wrong numbers

2011-07-21 Thread Shane Ellis 
Capacitors still kind of confuse me, and the terminology has me scratching
my head.  I understand what they do, but calculating them is still something
I don't understand.  When you say "next to" and IC, do you mean from the
+5V, to ground?

Resistors I got, Capacitors frustrate me...

Shane

On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 4:16 AM, Nick  wrote:

> Decoupling should be done EVERY time on EVERY chip - analogue or
> digital - right adjacent to the supply pins.
>
> It costs pretty much nothing, and saves a whole bunch of trouble. Just
> do it.
>
> Part of the need to do this is that chips today are much much faster
> than they used to be, so where frequency response would roll off
> before oscillation, nowadays even standard opamps can have GBWs in the
> MHz to 10s of MHz range, and logic goes far far higher.
>
> On the analogue side, I'm currently restoring some Quad amps - the
> amount of pure twaddle on the www about using loony opamps like the
> OPA627 and much faster (in "audiophoolery" faster = better) class A
> drivers & output stages - recipe for high-frequency instability - the
> circuit were designed to use the inherent limits of the original
> devices.
>
> Maybe I'll just spend 1000 bucks on some speaker cables and
> unidirectional 99.9% OFC internal cabling. Not.
>
> Nick
>
> On Jul 21, 9:50 am, jb-electronics 
> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > > (2) Sprinkle capacitors across power and ground all over your circuit.
> > > Preferably as close to the power and ground pins of each chip as
> > > possible. Usually they're 0.1uf (100nf) ceramic capacitors. Some big
> > > chips require you to use several near them, so read you datasheets.
> > > Chips are fast. Very fast. They can either generate very brief short
> > > circuits (in the ballpark of 10nS), and/or be susceptible to these
> > > very short glitches on the power rails.
> >
> > I cannot stress enough how much pain this will spare you. I recently
> > built a combined volt- and amperemeter with a 2x16 LCD readout on a
> > rather small pcb, and I did point-to-point-wiring like I always do, and
> > it did not want to work. Some weird oscillations at the volts ADC. The
> > first thing I did was inserting a 100nF cap next to every (!) IC, and
> > bam, problem solved.
> >
> > Jens
>
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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: wrong numbers

2011-07-21 Thread jb-electronics 

Hi,


(2) Sprinkle capacitors across power and ground all over your circuit.
Preferably as close to the power and ground pins of each chip as
possible. Usually they're 0.1uf (100nf) ceramic capacitors. Some big
chips require you to use several near them, so read you datasheets.
Chips are fast. Very fast. They can either generate very brief short
circuits (in the ballpark of 10nS), and/or be susceptible to these
very short glitches on the power rails.


I cannot stress enough how much pain this will spare you. I recently 
built a combined volt- and amperemeter with a 2x16 LCD readout on a 
rather small pcb, and I did point-to-point-wiring like I always do, and 
it did not want to work. Some weird oscillations at the volts ADC. The 
first thing I did was inserting a 100nF cap next to every (!) IC, and 
bam, problem solved.


Jens

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: wrong numbers

2011-07-20 Thread Adam Jacobs 

Could be bad breadboard...

-Adam

On 7/20/2011 6:46 AM, jb-electronics wrote:
What do you use for connective wires? When they are poorly insulated 
against each other and they touch at some point, you might get some 
crosstalk that disturbs your BCD signal.


Jens


 Am 20.07.2011 15:42, schrieb Shane Ellis:
Unfortunately, i'm still at the breadboard stage, so no soldering 
yet.  I forgot a lot about nixies, and programming, so I'm taking 
baby steps.


Keep these suggestions coming, eventually we'll figure it out.

Shane

On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 8:40 AM, jb-electronics 
mailto:webmas...@jb-electronics.de>> wrote:


Maybe some bad soldering? Happened to me several times.

Jens

Am 20.07.2011 15:07, schrieb Shane Ellis:

Unbelievable.  I yanked out the four data wires, (picaxe to
74141), double checked them, and NOW, I get 4,5,6,7  What is
going on!?
Shane

On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 4:48 AM, jb-electronics
mailto:webmas...@jb-electronics.de>> wrote:

Hi,

I think the problem can be circled fairly easy:

Create some sample code that is supposed to have the Nixie
tubes read out a static "12:48" for example. Then check the
corresponding BCD inputs on each chip. If the right number
appears there (in BCD format, that is) and the chip displays
a wrong number, then most likely the chip is defective.

If you realise there are already the wrong numbers on the
BCD inputs then you might want to recheck your wiring and
coding.

It sounds really obvious, sorry for that, but this is the
first thing I do when this happens, and it happens more
often than one would actually presume. One of my favourites
was when I had a software-internal bit shift that made all
my numbers about twice as low as intended ;-) I thought it
was a circuit issue. So you might want to check out your
software as well.

Jens

Am 20.07.2011 11:05, schrieb Terry Kennedy:

On Jul 20, 1:20 am, Shane Ellismailto:mime...@gmail.com>>  wrote:

It's an IN-14.
I have a running version of this exact same circuit,
I built into a
Christmas ornament, been running perfectly since I
powered it on, on
December 23rd.  I looked at my old files, and this
is identical, and still
this one is acting buggy.  I'll mess with it again
tomorrow, and let
everyone know what, if anything, I figured out.

Are using the Soviet K155ID1 decoder / driver? There was
a bad batch
of those which caused all sorts of havoc. It could
probably happen in
the non-Soviet parts, too.


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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: wrong numbers

2011-07-20 Thread Shane Ellis 
the battery was for the schematic, and initial breadboard testing.  Thank
you for the input though!  Wall wart power the tube nicely.  Now, to move to
a bigger uC, and get four tubes running ( and singing)

Shane

On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 12:36 PM, neutron spin wrote:

> I have a minor comment on the circuit designIf you are going to
> use a battery the 7805 will waste power. How can this be avoided?  One
> fix would be to use a Low-dropout regulator...using the walwart of
> course you are not concerned with battery life.
>
> Rergards
>
> Robert
>
>
> On 20 July, 11:47, Shane Ellis  wrote:
> > John, you lead me on the right path.
> > I never bothered to replace the uC on the breadboard ( I assumed it
> worked
> > due to the functioning numbers, and the fact that it took the program)
> > Replaced the uC, and BINGO!  we have a steady functioning tube counting
> from
> > 0-9.
> >
> > Thank you everyone for your help!  I have  a few new ideas to check in
> the
> > future, thanks to your suggestions.
> >
> > WOOHOO!
> >
> > Shane
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 10:07 AM, John Rehwinkel 
> wrote:
> > > On 7/20/2011 9:07 AM, Shane Ellis wrote:
> >
> > >> Unbelievable.  I yanked out the four data wires, (picaxe to 74141),
> double
> > >> checked them, and NOW, I get 4,5,6,7  What is going on!?
> >
> > > Sounds like the low 3 bits are connected correctly, and the high bit is
> not
> > > connected.  TTL chips like the 74141 will pull their inputs high if
> > > unconnected.
> >
> > > - John KG4L
> >
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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: wrong numbers

2011-07-20 Thread Shane Ellis 
John, you lead me on the right path.
I never bothered to replace the uC on the breadboard ( I assumed it worked
due to the functioning numbers, and the fact that it took the program)
Replaced the uC, and BINGO!  we have a steady functioning tube counting from
0-9.

Thank you everyone for your help!  I have  a few new ideas to check in the
future, thanks to your suggestions.

WOOHOO!

Shane

On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 10:07 AM, John Rehwinkel  wrote:

> On 7/20/2011 9:07 AM, Shane Ellis wrote:
>
>> Unbelievable.  I yanked out the four data wires, (picaxe to 74141), double
>> checked them, and NOW, I get 4,5,6,7  What is going on!?
>>
> Sounds like the low 3 bits are connected correctly, and the high bit is not
> connected.  TTL chips like the 74141 will pull their inputs high if
> unconnected.
>
> - John KG4L
>
>
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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: wrong numbers

2011-07-20 Thread John Rehwinkel 

On 7/20/2011 9:07 AM, Shane Ellis wrote:
Unbelievable.  I yanked out the four data wires, (picaxe to 74141), 
double checked them, and NOW, I get 4,5,6,7  What is going on!?
Sounds like the low 3 bits are connected correctly, and the high bit is 
not connected.  TTL chips like the 74141 will pull their inputs high if 
unconnected.


- John KG4L

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: wrong numbers

2011-07-20 Thread jb-electronics 

Shane,

wow, this must have been a lot of work to draw this in paint. You can 
always use Eagle for schematics, there is a free version.


I can't see a single cap in your circuit, at least put two 100nF caps 
right next to the 7805, one before and one after, this will help to 
stabilise the circuit.


Apart from that I do not see any mistake given your wiring is correct.

Jens


Am 20.07.2011 16:32, schrieb Shane Ellis:
Where would I post the schematic.  I drew it up in MSpaint, but it 
represents the circuit properly.  I attached it to this e-mail, I hope 
that is sufficient.


Shane

On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 9:24 AM, jb-electronics 
mailto:webmas...@jb-electronics.de>> wrote:


Well, then I think it is time for the schematic ;-)

Regards,
Jens

Am 20.07.2011 16:21, schrieb Shane Ellis:

I was wondering about eddie currents, and crosstalk, but I have
everything as isolated as I can on the breadboard.
hmmm

On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 8:46 AM, jb-electronics
mailto:webmas...@jb-electronics.de>> wrote:

What do you use for connective wires? When they are poorly
insulated against each other and they touch at some point,
you might get some crosstalk that disturbs your BCD signal.

Jens


 Am 20.07.2011 15:42, schrieb Shane Ellis:

Unfortunately, i'm still at the breadboard stage, so no
soldering yet.  I forgot a lot about nixies, and
programming, so I'm taking baby steps.

Keep these suggestions coming, eventually we'll figure it out.

Shane

On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 8:40 AM, jb-electronics
mailto:webmas...@jb-electronics.de>> wrote:

Maybe some bad soldering? Happened to me several times.

Jens

Am 20.07.2011 15:07, schrieb Shane Ellis:

Unbelievable.  I yanked out the four data wires,
(picaxe to 74141), double checked them, and NOW, I get
4,5,6,7  What is going on!?
Shane

On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 4:48 AM, jb-electronics
mailto:webmas...@jb-electronics.de>> wrote:

Hi,

I think the problem can be circled fairly easy:

Create some sample code that is supposed to have
the Nixie tubes read out a static "12:48" for
example. Then check the corresponding BCD inputs on
each chip. If the right number appears there (in
BCD format, that is) and the chip displays a wrong
number, then most likely the chip is defective.

If you realise there are already the wrong numbers
on the BCD inputs then you might want to recheck
your wiring and coding.

It sounds really obvious, sorry for that, but this
is the first thing I do when this happens, and it
happens more often than one would actually presume.
One of my favourites was when I had a
software-internal bit shift that made all my
numbers about twice as low as intended ;-) I
thought it was a circuit issue. So you might want
to check out your software as well.

Jens

Am 20.07.2011 11:05, schrieb Terry Kennedy:

On Jul 20, 1:20 am, Shane
Ellismailto:mime...@gmail.com>>  wrote:

It's an IN-14.
I have a running version of this exact same
circuit, I built into a
Christmas ornament, been running perfectly
since I powered it on, on
December 23rd.  I looked at my old files,
and this is identical, and still
this one is acting buggy.  I'll mess with
it again tomorrow, and let
everyone know what, if anything, I figured out.

Are using the Soviet K155ID1 decoder / driver?
There was a bad batch
of those which caused all sorts of havoc. It
could probably happen in
the non-Soviet parts, too.


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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: wrong numbers

2011-07-20 Thread jb-electronics 

Well, then I think it is time for the schematic ;-)

Regards,
Jens

Am 20.07.2011 16:21, schrieb Shane Ellis:
I was wondering about eddie currents, and crosstalk, but I have 
everything as isolated as I can on the breadboard.

hmmm

On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 8:46 AM, jb-electronics 
mailto:webmas...@jb-electronics.de>> wrote:


What do you use for connective wires? When they are poorly
insulated against each other and they touch at some point, you
might get some crosstalk that disturbs your BCD signal.

Jens


 Am 20.07.2011 15:42, schrieb Shane Ellis:

Unfortunately, i'm still at the breadboard stage, so no soldering
yet.  I forgot a lot about nixies, and programming, so I'm taking
baby steps.

Keep these suggestions coming, eventually we'll figure it out.

Shane

On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 8:40 AM, jb-electronics
mailto:webmas...@jb-electronics.de>> wrote:

Maybe some bad soldering? Happened to me several times.

Jens

Am 20.07.2011 15:07, schrieb Shane Ellis:

Unbelievable.  I yanked out the four data wires, (picaxe to
74141), double checked them, and NOW, I get 4,5,6,7 
What is going on!?

Shane

On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 4:48 AM, jb-electronics
mailto:webmas...@jb-electronics.de>> wrote:

Hi,

I think the problem can be circled fairly easy:

Create some sample code that is supposed to have the
Nixie tubes read out a static "12:48" for example. Then
check the corresponding BCD inputs on each chip. If the
right number appears there (in BCD format, that is) and
the chip displays a wrong number, then most likely the
chip is defective.

If you realise there are already the wrong numbers on
the BCD inputs then you might want to recheck your
wiring and coding.

It sounds really obvious, sorry for that, but this is
the first thing I do when this happens, and it happens
more often than one would actually presume. One of my
favourites was when I had a software-internal bit shift
that made all my numbers about twice as low as intended
;-) I thought it was a circuit issue. So you might want
to check out your software as well.

Jens

Am 20.07.2011 11:05, schrieb Terry Kennedy:

On Jul 20, 1:20 am, Shane Ellismailto:mime...@gmail.com>>  wrote:

It's an IN-14.
I have a running version of this exact same
circuit, I built into a
Christmas ornament, been running perfectly since
I powered it on, on
December 23rd.  I looked at my old files, and
this is identical, and still
this one is acting buggy.  I'll mess with it
again tomorrow, and let
everyone know what, if anything, I figured out.

Are using the Soviet K155ID1 decoder / driver? There
was a bad batch
of those which caused all sorts of havoc. It could
probably happen in
the non-Soviet parts, too.


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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: wrong numbers

2011-07-20 Thread Shane Ellis 
This is in fact binary, I'm using the four outputs on my micro as the 4
high/low signals on the 74141.
Something unusual though.  I unplugged the ground to the 74141, and it still
displayed the 4,5,6,7...
For some reason, I'm not getting a proper ground at the 7805 volt regulator.
I'll rewire the grounds, and see what I can figure out.
Thanks all
Shane

On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 8:46 AM,  wrote:

> **
> Well, not knowing the schematic...
> If you were binary at some point and had the 4bit high, that would give you
> the 4,5,6,7 instead of 0,1,2,3
>
> Michail
>
>  In a message dated 7/20/2011 6:42:55 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
> mime...@gmail.com writes:
>
> Unfortunately, i'm still at the breadboard stage, so no soldering yet.  I
> forgot a lot about nixies, and programming, so I'm taking baby steps.
>
> Keep these suggestions coming, eventually we'll figure it out.
>
> Shane
>
> On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 8:40 AM, jb-electronics <
> webmas...@jb-electronics.de> wrote:
>
>> **
>> Maybe some bad soldering? Happened to me several times.
>>
>> Jens
>>
>> Am 20.07.2011 15:07, schrieb Shane Ellis:
>>
>> Unbelievable.  I yanked out the four data wires, (picaxe to 74141), double
>> checked them, and NOW, I get 4,5,6,7  What is going on!?
>> Shane
>>
>> .com/group/neonixie-l?hl=en-GB.
>
>  --
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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: wrong numbers

2011-07-20 Thread Shane Ellis 
I was wondering about eddie currents, and crosstalk, but I have everything
as isolated as I can on the breadboard.
hmmm

On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 8:46 AM, jb-electronics  wrote:

> **
> What do you use for connective wires? When they are poorly insulated
> against each other and they touch at some point, you might get some
> crosstalk that disturbs your BCD signal.
>
> Jens
>
>
>  Am 20.07.2011 15:42, schrieb Shane Ellis:
>
> Unfortunately, i'm still at the breadboard stage, so no soldering yet.  I
> forgot a lot about nixies, and programming, so I'm taking baby steps.
>
> Keep these suggestions coming, eventually we'll figure it out.
>
> Shane
>
> On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 8:40 AM, jb-electronics <
> webmas...@jb-electronics.de> wrote:
>
>>  Maybe some bad soldering? Happened to me several times.
>>
>> Jens
>>
>> Am 20.07.2011 15:07, schrieb Shane Ellis:
>>
>> Unbelievable.  I yanked out the four data wires, (picaxe to 74141), double
>> checked them, and NOW, I get 4,5,6,7  What is going on!?
>> Shane
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 4:48 AM, jb-electronics <
>> webmas...@jb-electronics.de> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I think the problem can be circled fairly easy:
>>>
>>> Create some sample code that is supposed to have the Nixie tubes read out
>>> a static "12:48" for example. Then check the corresponding BCD inputs on
>>> each chip. If the right number appears there (in BCD format, that is) and
>>> the chip displays a wrong number, then most likely the chip is defective.
>>>
>>> If you realise there are already the wrong numbers on the BCD inputs then
>>> you might want to recheck your wiring and coding.
>>>
>>> It sounds really obvious, sorry for that, but this is the first thing I
>>> do when this happens, and it happens more often than one would actually
>>> presume. One of my favourites was when I had a software-internal bit shift
>>> that made all my numbers about twice as low as intended ;-) I thought it was
>>> a circuit issue. So you might want to check out your software as well.
>>>
>>> Jens
>>>
>>> Am 20.07.2011 11:05, schrieb Terry Kennedy:
>>>
>>>  On Jul 20, 1:20 am, Shane Ellis  wrote:

> It's an IN-14.
> I have a running version of this exact same circuit, I built into a
> Christmas ornament, been running perfectly since I powered it on, on
> December 23rd.  I looked at my old files, and this is identical, and
> still
> this one is acting buggy.  I'll mess with it again tomorrow, and let
> everyone know what, if anything, I figured out.
>
 Are using the Soviet K155ID1 decoder / driver? There was a bad batch
 of those which caused all sorts of havoc. It could probably happen in
 the non-Soviet parts, too.


>>> --
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>>>
>>>
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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: wrong numbers

2011-07-20 Thread Michail1 
Well, not knowing the schematic...
If you were binary at some point and had the 4bit high, that would give you 
 the 4,5,6,7 instead of 0,1,2,3
 
Michail
 
 
In a message dated 7/20/2011 6:42:55 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  
mime...@gmail.com writes:

Unfortunately, i'm still at the breadboard stage, so no soldering  yet.  I 
forgot a lot about nixies, and programming, so I'm taking baby  steps.  

Keep these suggestions coming, eventually we'll figure it  out.

Shane

On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 8:40 AM, jb-electronics 
<_webmaster@jb-electronics.de_ (mailto:webmas...@jb-electronics.de) >  wrote:

Maybe some bad soldering? Happened to  me several times.

Jens

Am 20.07.2011 15:07, schrieb Shane  Ellis:  
 

 
Unbelievable.  I yanked out the four data  wires, (picaxe to 74141), double 
checked them, and NOW, I get  4,5,6,7  What is going  on!?
Shane







.com/group/neonixie-l?hl=en-GB.

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: wrong numbers

2011-07-20 Thread jb-electronics 
What do you use for connective wires? When they are poorly insulated 
against each other and they touch at some point, you might get some 
crosstalk that disturbs your BCD signal.


Jens


 Am 20.07.2011 15:42, schrieb Shane Ellis:
Unfortunately, i'm still at the breadboard stage, so no soldering 
yet.  I forgot a lot about nixies, and programming, so I'm taking baby 
steps.


Keep these suggestions coming, eventually we'll figure it out.

Shane

On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 8:40 AM, jb-electronics 
mailto:webmas...@jb-electronics.de>> wrote:


Maybe some bad soldering? Happened to me several times.

Jens

Am 20.07.2011 15:07, schrieb Shane Ellis:

Unbelievable.  I yanked out the four data wires, (picaxe to
74141), double checked them, and NOW, I get 4,5,6,7  What is
going on!?
Shane

On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 4:48 AM, jb-electronics
mailto:webmas...@jb-electronics.de>> wrote:

Hi,

I think the problem can be circled fairly easy:

Create some sample code that is supposed to have the Nixie
tubes read out a static "12:48" for example. Then check the
corresponding BCD inputs on each chip. If the right number
appears there (in BCD format, that is) and the chip displays
a wrong number, then most likely the chip is defective.

If you realise there are already the wrong numbers on the BCD
inputs then you might want to recheck your wiring and coding.

It sounds really obvious, sorry for that, but this is the
first thing I do when this happens, and it happens more often
than one would actually presume. One of my favourites was
when I had a software-internal bit shift that made all my
numbers about twice as low as intended ;-) I thought it was a
circuit issue. So you might want to check out your software
as well.

Jens

Am 20.07.2011 11:05, schrieb Terry Kennedy:

On Jul 20, 1:20 am, Shane Ellismailto:mime...@gmail.com>>  wrote:

It's an IN-14.
I have a running version of this exact same circuit,
I built into a
Christmas ornament, been running perfectly since I
powered it on, on
December 23rd.  I looked at my old files, and this is
identical, and still
this one is acting buggy.  I'll mess with it again
tomorrow, and let
everyone know what, if anything, I figured out.

Are using the Soviet K155ID1 decoder / driver? There was
a bad batch
of those which caused all sorts of havoc. It could
probably happen in
the non-Soviet parts, too.


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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: wrong numbers

2011-07-20 Thread Shane Ellis 
Unfortunately, i'm still at the breadboard stage, so no soldering yet.  I
forgot a lot about nixies, and programming, so I'm taking baby steps.

Keep these suggestions coming, eventually we'll figure it out.

Shane

On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 8:40 AM, jb-electronics  wrote:

> **
> Maybe some bad soldering? Happened to me several times.
>
> Jens
>
> Am 20.07.2011 15:07, schrieb Shane Ellis:
>
> Unbelievable.  I yanked out the four data wires, (picaxe to 74141), double
> checked them, and NOW, I get 4,5,6,7  What is going on!?
> Shane
>
> On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 4:48 AM, jb-electronics <
> webmas...@jb-electronics.de> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I think the problem can be circled fairly easy:
>>
>> Create some sample code that is supposed to have the Nixie tubes read out
>> a static "12:48" for example. Then check the corresponding BCD inputs on
>> each chip. If the right number appears there (in BCD format, that is) and
>> the chip displays a wrong number, then most likely the chip is defective.
>>
>> If you realise there are already the wrong numbers on the BCD inputs then
>> you might want to recheck your wiring and coding.
>>
>> It sounds really obvious, sorry for that, but this is the first thing I do
>> when this happens, and it happens more often than one would actually
>> presume. One of my favourites was when I had a software-internal bit shift
>> that made all my numbers about twice as low as intended ;-) I thought it was
>> a circuit issue. So you might want to check out your software as well.
>>
>> Jens
>>
>> Am 20.07.2011 11:05, schrieb Terry Kennedy:
>>
>>  On Jul 20, 1:20 am, Shane Ellis  wrote:
>>>
 It's an IN-14.
 I have a running version of this exact same circuit, I built into a
 Christmas ornament, been running perfectly since I powered it on, on
 December 23rd.  I looked at my old files, and this is identical, and
 still
 this one is acting buggy.  I'll mess with it again tomorrow, and let
 everyone know what, if anything, I figured out.

>>> Are using the Soviet K155ID1 decoder / driver? There was a bad batch
>>> of those which caused all sorts of havoc. It could probably happen in
>>> the non-Soviet parts, too.
>>>
>>>
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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: wrong numbers

2011-07-20 Thread jb-electronics 

Maybe some bad soldering? Happened to me several times.

Jens

Am 20.07.2011 15:07, schrieb Shane Ellis:
Unbelievable.  I yanked out the four data wires, (picaxe to 74141), 
double checked them, and NOW, I get 4,5,6,7  What is going on!?

Shane

On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 4:48 AM, jb-electronics 
mailto:webmas...@jb-electronics.de>> wrote:


Hi,

I think the problem can be circled fairly easy:

Create some sample code that is supposed to have the Nixie tubes
read out a static "12:48" for example. Then check the
corresponding BCD inputs on each chip. If the right number appears
there (in BCD format, that is) and the chip displays a wrong
number, then most likely the chip is defective.

If you realise there are already the wrong numbers on the BCD
inputs then you might want to recheck your wiring and coding.

It sounds really obvious, sorry for that, but this is the first
thing I do when this happens, and it happens more often than one
would actually presume. One of my favourites was when I had a
software-internal bit shift that made all my numbers about twice
as low as intended ;-) I thought it was a circuit issue. So you
might want to check out your software as well.

Jens

Am 20.07.2011 11:05, schrieb Terry Kennedy:

On Jul 20, 1:20 am, Shane Ellismailto:mime...@gmail.com>>  wrote:

It's an IN-14.
I have a running version of this exact same circuit, I
built into a
Christmas ornament, been running perfectly since I powered
it on, on
December 23rd.  I looked at my old files, and this is
identical, and still
this one is acting buggy.  I'll mess with it again
tomorrow, and let
everyone know what, if anything, I figured out.

Are using the Soviet K155ID1 decoder / driver? There was a bad
batch
of those which caused all sorts of havoc. It could probably
happen in
the non-Soviet parts, too.


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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: wrong numbers

2011-07-20 Thread Shane Ellis 
Unbelievable.  I yanked out the four data wires, (picaxe to 74141), double
checked them, and NOW, I get 4,5,6,7  What is going on!?
Shane

On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 4:48 AM, jb-electronics  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I think the problem can be circled fairly easy:
>
> Create some sample code that is supposed to have the Nixie tubes read out a
> static "12:48" for example. Then check the corresponding BCD inputs on each
> chip. If the right number appears there (in BCD format, that is) and the
> chip displays a wrong number, then most likely the chip is defective.
>
> If you realise there are already the wrong numbers on the BCD inputs then
> you might want to recheck your wiring and coding.
>
> It sounds really obvious, sorry for that, but this is the first thing I do
> when this happens, and it happens more often than one would actually
> presume. One of my favourites was when I had a software-internal bit shift
> that made all my numbers about twice as low as intended ;-) I thought it was
> a circuit issue. So you might want to check out your software as well.
>
> Jens
>
> Am 20.07.2011 11:05, schrieb Terry Kennedy:
>
>  On Jul 20, 1:20 am, Shane Ellis  wrote:
>>
>>> It's an IN-14.
>>> I have a running version of this exact same circuit, I built into a
>>> Christmas ornament, been running perfectly since I powered it on, on
>>> December 23rd.  I looked at my old files, and this is identical, and
>>> still
>>> this one is acting buggy.  I'll mess with it again tomorrow, and let
>>> everyone know what, if anything, I figured out.
>>>
>> Are using the Soviet K155ID1 decoder / driver? There was a bad batch
>> of those which caused all sorts of havoc. It could probably happen in
>> the non-Soviet parts, too.
>>
>>
> --
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> "neonixie-l" group.
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> group/neonixie-l?hl=en-GB
> .
>
>

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: wrong numbers

2011-07-20 Thread Shane Ellis 
Thank you everyone for the suggestions.  I'll remove the current limiting
resistor to the 74141, I'll check the Picaxe, and 74141, and I'll simulate
my code to make sure pins are going high low at the same time.

I'll check in later

Shane

On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 4:48 AM, jb-electronics  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I think the problem can be circled fairly easy:
>
> Create some sample code that is supposed to have the Nixie tubes read out a
> static "12:48" for example. Then check the corresponding BCD inputs on each
> chip. If the right number appears there (in BCD format, that is) and the
> chip displays a wrong number, then most likely the chip is defective.
>
> If you realise there are already the wrong numbers on the BCD inputs then
> you might want to recheck your wiring and coding.
>
> It sounds really obvious, sorry for that, but this is the first thing I do
> when this happens, and it happens more often than one would actually
> presume. One of my favourites was when I had a software-internal bit shift
> that made all my numbers about twice as low as intended ;-) I thought it was
> a circuit issue. So you might want to check out your software as well.
>
> Jens
>
> Am 20.07.2011 11:05, schrieb Terry Kennedy:
>
>  On Jul 20, 1:20 am, Shane Ellis  wrote:
>>
>>> It's an IN-14.
>>> I have a running version of this exact same circuit, I built into a
>>> Christmas ornament, been running perfectly since I powered it on, on
>>> December 23rd.  I looked at my old files, and this is identical, and
>>> still
>>> this one is acting buggy.  I'll mess with it again tomorrow, and let
>>> everyone know what, if anything, I figured out.
>>>
>> Are using the Soviet K155ID1 decoder / driver? There was a bad batch
>> of those which caused all sorts of havoc. It could probably happen in
>> the non-Soviet parts, too.
>>
>>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "neonixie-l" group.
> To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to neonixie-l+unsubscribe@**
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> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**
> group/neonixie-l?hl=en-GB
> .
>
>

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: wrong numbers

2011-07-20 Thread jb-electronics 

Hi,

I think the problem can be circled fairly easy:

Create some sample code that is supposed to have the Nixie tubes read 
out a static "12:48" for example. Then check the corresponding BCD 
inputs on each chip. If the right number appears there (in BCD format, 
that is) and the chip displays a wrong number, then most likely the chip 
is defective.


If you realise there are already the wrong numbers on the BCD inputs 
then you might want to recheck your wiring and coding.


It sounds really obvious, sorry for that, but this is the first thing I 
do when this happens, and it happens more often than one would actually 
presume. One of my favourites was when I had a software-internal bit 
shift that made all my numbers about twice as low as intended ;-) I 
thought it was a circuit issue. So you might want to check out your 
software as well.


Jens

Am 20.07.2011 11:05, schrieb Terry Kennedy:

On Jul 20, 1:20 am, Shane Ellis  wrote:

It's an IN-14.
I have a running version of this exact same circuit, I built into a
Christmas ornament, been running perfectly since I powered it on, on
December 23rd.  I looked at my old files, and this is identical, and still
this one is acting buggy.  I'll mess with it again tomorrow, and let
everyone know what, if anything, I figured out.

Are using the Soviet K155ID1 decoder / driver? There was a bad batch
of those which caused all sorts of havoc. It could probably happen in
the non-Soviet parts, too.



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