Re: nettime: down & up and the need for long-term

2020-03-11 Thread Henk


Move back to were it came from. We can host nettime again at the Waag.
Both archive and lists. 

grtz,
henk



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Re: nettime: down & up and the need for long-term archiving

2020-03-11 Thread Patrice Riemens


Aloha All,

Makes total sense Mark - at least to me.

A _supplementary_ option for the nettime archives could be to contact 
with the International Institute of Social History in Amsterdam. They 
have an ever expanding digital fond.

Also: I was interviewed a few weeks ago by the digital archivists at the 
Royal Library in the Hague (the Dutch record library) & they have an 
enthusiastic program director, Kees Teszelszky:

https://www.kb.nl/organisatie/organisatie-en-beleid/afdelingen-en-organogram/collectiespecialisten/kees-teszelszky

(sorry Dutch only: c+p >>> deepl.com! ;-)

Maybe he would be interested, after all nettime is also part a NL 
originated thing

Cheers to all!
p+2D!


On 2020-03-11 12:28, mark wrote:
> Hi Felix and Ted,
> 
> On 05/03/2020 07:43, nettime's mods wrote:
>> Very few people have noticed that the list was down for more than a 
>> month.
>> Indeed, even we didn't noticed this immediately. It's up again now, 
>> but...
>> 
>> But this isn't a good sign. First, it shows that nettime's
>> 'infrastructure' is brittle, and, second, that no one's paying much
>> attention to the list.
> 
> On your first point, if you're having difficulty maintaining a stable
> setup, maybe you would like to move the list to a different server? I'm
> part of the collective running lists.aktivix.org and I think you would
> be welcome there (I would have to check with my friends, of course).
> 
> I disagree with your second point. I am on lots of lists that have long
> periods of inactivity interspersed with spikes of messaging. I enjoy
> reading nettime and I accept the sporadic nature of postings as part of
> the ride.
 

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Re: nettime: down & up and the need for long-term archiving

2020-03-11 Thread James Wallbank

Great job getting Nettime back up again!

Regarding archiving, how big is the Nettime Archive? How is it currently 
stored?


Regarding not noticing that the list was down - I did - or rather, I 
noticed that nobody was posting.


But, as is the way with the online world, any stream of interesting 
discussion or commentary that's missing is immediately replaced by 
another interesting stream of discussion or commentary that's present.


There's no such thing as a gap on the internet.

Or rather, there are many, many gaps, but they're in no way apparent - 
you have to look for them. I'm sure that if you start researching an 
area in which you are, personally, knowledgable, you'll come across them 
quickly.


It's a very tempting illusion to think that "all human knowledge exists 
on the internet". It doesn't. And without Nettime, a little piece of 
network self-awareness would be lost.


All the best,

James






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Re: nettime: down & up and the need for long-term archiving

2020-03-11 Thread mark
Hi Felix and Ted,

On 05/03/2020 07:43, nettime's mods wrote:
> Very few people have noticed that the list was down for more than a month.
> Indeed, even we didn't noticed this immediately. It's up again now, but...
> 
> But this isn't a good sign. First, it shows that nettime's
> 'infrastructure' is brittle, and, second, that no one's paying much
> attention to the list.

On your first point, if you're having difficulty maintaining a stable
setup, maybe you would like to move the list to a different server? I'm
part of the collective running lists.aktivix.org and I think you would
be welcome there (I would have to check with my friends, of course).

I disagree with your second point. I am on lots of lists that have long
periods of inactivity interspersed with spikes of messaging. I enjoy
reading nettime and I accept the sporadic nature of postings as part of
the ride.

> Rather than spark another one of those discussions, we think this is a
> good occasion to think more deeply about a long-term solution for
> nettime's *archive*. It spans almost 25 years and is a testament both to
> an amazing conjuncture — a period of time and a a collective effort to
> understand the digitally enabled social and cultural transformations in
> real time.
> 
> If anyone has any good suggestions — preferably something concrete and
> actionable — then please let us know.

OK, here's my suggestion: move to lists.aktivix.org and the archive can
be made available at https://lists.aktivix.org/pipermail/listname

Also, ensure that the pipermail archive is indexed by archive.org

Make sense?

Cheers,
Mark


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Re: [digest 4x] nettime: down & up and the need for long-term archiving

2020-03-11 Thread nettime's downer digest
- Forwarded message from kanonmedia  -

From: kanonmedia 
Subject: Re:  nettime: down & up and the need for long-term archiving
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 16:16:53 +0100
To: nettime's mods 

   Keep it as an online archive / publication!

   --
   kanonmedia
   ngo for experimental media productions
   alexandra reill
   call: +43 [0]6991 8207003
   write to: 12/24, richtergasse, a 1070 vienna
   mail to: [1]alexandra.re...@kanonmedia.com
   visit: http: [2]www.kanonmedia.com
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- End forwarded message -
- Forwarded message from Max Herman  -

From: Max Herman 
Subject: Re:  nettime: down & up and the need for long-term archiving
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 15:46:52 +
To: nettime's mods , nettime-l 

   Hi all,

   I did notice the silent period and was a bit saddened by it.  Do we
   know if anyone tried to post during that time?

   Perhaps the Hippocratic ethos is relevant here.  Lately I've been
   interested in concepts of network medicine as they might inform the
   ethics of network civilization.  Age and eventual demise or archival
   are medical concepts in a sense, relating to "end of life" whether for
   technology, biology, or information.  Many intangibles are involved,
   like the wishes of the family, legacy for future generations, the
   historical record, and so on.  If a reasonable quality of life is not
   sustainable for nettime, what is the most balanced approach for
   archival?

   Speaking for myself, despite having posted a lot of inane and
   embarrassing content to nettime, I would wish to have it preserved in
   some archival form (perhaps like a discontinued periodical is preserved
   in a library for research purposes).  Erasure of what was and may
   continue to be important (the baby) seems more negative than the
   embarrassment of being remembered (the bathwater).  I like the gritty
   reality of nettime.  Perhaps it is enough to be remembered and
   forgiven, rather than erased and forgotten?  Each writer to nettime may
   feel differently.

   It seems to me that an artistic or historical institution such as a
   library or university might be a good way to host the archive
   long-term, as is done with periodicals.  Making a giant torrent
   available as with Geocities could be an option, but it would be nice to
   keep something of nettime's structure and simplicity of html.  Could a
   precise copy of what now appears at nettime.org be certified by
   blockchain, and made available to various institutions or individuals
   if they wish to archive a copy?  Same copyright rules etc.

   Not unlike some good, old magazines in binders on a shelf, available in
   more than one library.

   Best wishes to all,

   Max
 __


- End forwarded message -
- Forwarded message from Geert Dekkers  -

From: Geert Dekkers 
Subject: Re:  nettime: down & up and the need for long-term archiving
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 15:52:52 +
To: nettime-l , "nettime's mods" 

   Actionable, as in "we need a hosting solution"? We might be able to
   help with that.

   Best regards
   Geert Dekkers
   gsm +31 6 147 487 55
   Django Web Studio | [1]https://djangowebstudio.com� |� +31 2 334 3835

- End forwarded message -
- Forwarded message from nettime-l-ow...@mail.kein.org -

From: Morlock Elloi 
Subject: Re:  nettime: down & up and the need for long-term archiving
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 01:49:18 -0700
To: nettime-l@mail.kein.org

Great question, reveals all the hollowness of the 'Internet'. While 
there is a way to archive almost anything printed, there is no way to 
permanently archive anything on the Internet. It is ephemeral by nature, 
the storage being managed by entities that come and go, change policies, 
guaranteeing that nothing is permanent. Whoever offers archiving today 
will most likely not exist 10 years from now.

---

That being said, it may be possible to inject nettime-l into 
archive.org, which may be around a bit longer than the others:

- go to the last snapshot (2018):

https://web.archive.org/web/20180624103024/https://www.nettime.org/Lists-Archives/

- create a script that will crawl through all the links (as Archive.org 
archived only the top page) and perform 'Save this url in the Wayback 
Machine' action and then "save page". We are talking number of 'clicks' 
equal to the number of messages. As archiving takes about 10 sec, it may 
take few months.

I have manually archived one to test - see 
https://web.archive.org/web/20200311083938/https://www.nettime.org/Lists-Archives/nettime-l-1805/msg00022.html

---

Alternatively, try bribing someone in the Library of Congress: 
https://www.loc.gov/programs/web-archiving/about-this-program/


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