Re: Fascist "trolls," meta

[Johnatan Petterson]

hi Angela,

regarding Tocqueville, democracy in america, i am stopped in page 134 / 376
and will have to wait to go further
into my movies to be able to answer asregards to Catholicism etc

as regards to Plato, i have had similar zone of interest, such as "everyone
in the place" and "flihgt lines" towards a diagrammatic outside space
from which one who was assigned to a particular place, found surrounded by
various Platonic solids,
which are the modes or monads found in Toynbee (i only have read his
"Abrégé". the person who is in such situation
can be (see my book in English and French with beautiful images : <<
Geography of the Constructed Mind >>
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sch%C3%A9ma-Taltli-G%C3%A9om%C3%A9trie-constellation-r%C3%AAv%C3%A9e/dp/2873174870/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8=1541745378=8-1=taltli
)
(Géométrie de la Constellation Rêvée - Le Schéma de Taltli - Geography of
the Constructed Mind -- by Mathyas Jacqmain - 2018 -)
the person in this situation can learn to choose whether s/he wants to
encompass the same situation as either
as a shape (aesthetic or rather sensation is imagined to be the base of
reality) the shape of a monad perceived from a distance, as her/himself she
a "Hybrid" bridge between various monads,
she can enter within prospective mobile relation with the components of the
shapes. (for example urban parts, novel haecceities, etc) and get a better
idea of
what is the religion of the monad.(or get away & visit another monad)

will tell you when i find time to finish Tocqueville.
best regards,
Mathyas


Le jeu. 8 nov. 2018 à 23:55, Angela Mitropoulos  a
écrit :

> Johnatan,
>
> I read Tocqueville's Democracy In America a very long time ago. My
> recollection is that he outlines a version of Plato's argument from The
> Republic, in which Plato claims that despotism is the necessary outcome of
> "too much freedom"--a very precise definition of freedom from a Platonist
> point of view, by which he meant not freedom so much as teleology and a
> theory of ideal forms, and everyone in their proper place.I am not a
> Platonist.
> https://www.e-flux.com/journal/90/191676/art-of-life-art-of-war-movement-un-common-forms-and-infrastructure/
>
>
> But Tocqueville's Catholic and aristocratic background explains far more
> of his claims about the "secularism" of American politics and law, and the
> depiction of America as lacking in religiosity. (Marx, by contrast,
> described the states of America as a land of religiosity par excellence,
> and I tend to agree.) The distinction between private faith (and
> attributes) and public secularism is not the absence of religion, but
> grounded in Protestant theologies of freedom and redemption. I make no
> argument for either religion. More pointing out that Tocqueville's account
> of democracy in America is, at its base, a Catholic account of
> Protestantism. It's not uncommon, today even, to come across people using
> 'liberalism' as a euphemism for Protestantism. But as I said, I don't see
> myself as a conscript in some nineteenth-century kulturkampf between
> Protestants and Catholics.
>
> The idealisation of the Roman Empire strikes me as misguided as does the
> idealisation of ancient Greece. I do not think they were run for the good
> of the slaves in either.
>
> Angela
>
>
>
> On Wed, 7 Nov 2018 at 11:44, Johnatan Petterson <
> internet.petter...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> hy.
>> thank you for the thoughts suggested into me from your writing.
>> i have obviously not been educated enough in US Politics to find an
>> audience in my reply,
>> i wish i knew if the Toqueville book i am currently reading on Democracy
>> in USA
>> (shall along my further reading )cross refer(s ) this following idea
>> from Arendt On Revolution.
>> ie.It seems in On Revolution Arendt elaborates on the French Revolution,
>> she seems
>> to say it defers from Founding Fathers in that they had no guidance from
>> the Bible.
>> i would say you could find in Nazi preoccupation with OldGreek
>> architecture and Viennese architecture
>> somekind of an ideal, just like the memes within our modern
>> civilisations. it something which perhaps
>> a philosopher would call a Limit, a Horizon, a Value or a Metric. this
>> explains why the Barbarians had somehow a religion,
>> even if they did not believe in the Common Good. I would not be surprised
>> to discover (later, in Toqueville) that the Founding Fathers of your
>> Democracy
>> believed in some Common Good. yet believing in the Common Good is quite
>> difficult, is quite exceptional, which explains why perhaps Arendt
>> could say (i have not read that book on Eishmann) this was 

Re: Fascist "trolls," meta

[Johnatan Petterson]

hy.
thank you for the thoughts suggested into me from your writing.
i have obviously not been educated enough in US Politics to find an
audience in my reply,
i wish i knew if the Toqueville book i am currently reading on Democracy in
USA
(shall along my further reading )cross refer(s ) this following idea  from
Arendt On Revolution.
ie.It seems in On Revolution Arendt elaborates on the French Revolution,
she seems
to say it defers from Founding Fathers in that they had no guidance from
the Bible.
i would say you could find in Nazi preoccupation with OldGreek architecture
and Viennese architecture
somekind of an ideal, just like the memes within our modern civilisations.
it something which perhaps
a philosopher would call a Limit, a Horizon, a Value or a Metric. this
explains why the Barbarians had somehow a religion,
even if they did not believe in the Common Good. I would not be surprised
to discover (later, in Toqueville) that the Founding Fathers of your
Democracy
believed in some Common Good. yet believing in the Common Good is quite
difficult, is quite exceptional, which explains why perhaps Arendt
could say (i have not read that book on Eishmann) this was just another a
ordinary man. the Horizon certainly was a Monster. i am
curious to discover everything about his sexual approach to this. it is
like Spinoza something it is possible to enjoy,
laugh at, even if from a distance, limited, by any means imaginable?




>
> I wrote this some time ago on the media's fascination with Nazi profile
> pieces: https://s0metim3s.com/2017/12/05/arendt-banality-nazism/
>
>
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Re: Does Nettime have a code of conduct, policies or other governance mechanisms?

[Johnatan Petterson]

hey, let's do a inter section rhizome with the various ways people -
animals think populate the NettTime list & create forward- culture
aesthetics-

perhaps to go in the sense of Felix Stadler who already advocated towards
new aesthetics in new kinds of medium to answer the question of work,
class, values and culture:
here is my last movie, <> (i am currently working on
<> which is a feature i do all by myself)
  https://www.brokenvessels.xyz/
bisous à tous
Sylvia & Johnatan

Le lun. 5 nov. 2018 à 05:44, Ana Ulin  a écrit :

> That is a great question, Angela. I, too, would love to know if there are
> any policy, code of conduct or other mechanism that governs what is or is
> not acceptable in this space.
>
> I've been listening in on Nettime for a few weeks now, trying to decide if
> it is a good fit for me. The fact that Willem's intentionally rude and
> dismissive response to Angela seems to be welcome here, coupled with all
> the airtime that has been given to Mr Best Intentions, suggests that this
> space is either wholly ungoverned or that such behavior is explicitly
> welcome.
>
> Cheers,
> Ana
>
> On Sat, Nov 3, 2018 at 4:21 PM Angela Mitropoulos <
> angela.mitropou...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> What is Nettime's policy on whether or not it should give fascists a
>> platform from which to recruit?
>>
>> Angela
>>
>>
>>
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Re: Identity and difference

[Johnatan Petterson]

What would Marxist answer to those who like Berkley do argue against the
existence of Matter in the struggles ?

Le ven. 2 nov. 2018 à 6:08 PM, Alexander Bard  a
écrit :

> Dear Alice
>
> If you refer to what I wrote, then please let me correct you. I never said
> that gender is a social ghost. I said that race is a social ghost. There is
> no such thing as race outside of bigoted people's limited imagination. Skin
> color makes us no different from one another than hair or eye color. Which
> is why all forms of racism are invalid. Prejudices are best fought with
> empowerment and facts, not with infinite (self)victimization. Call the
> prejudiced out on their ignorance, not on some kind of banal moralism.
> Gender exists ontically and not just ontologically. As does androgynity
> between the genders. And all three categories serve excellent and equally
> important roles in the community. I'm a radical egalitarian for good and
> sold scientific reasons. Tribal mapping theory even includes a forth
> category labeled "the shamanic caste" for added tribal queerness, the
> go-betweens of all genders that walk between tribes. There you go, pretty
> much all people included in that model, my favorite model for future
> socialism.
> However class beats everything else when it comes to political struggle. I
> just read and found out both Slavoj Zizek and Alain Badiou agree strongly
> with me on this note. Not that namedropping is an argument, just another
> example of how there is a major backlash brewing against identitarianism's
> claim toward becoming the core of the left. I firmly believe such a
> Rousseauian turn would be a devastating mistake. Back to Marx, please!
> Best to fight sexism and racism (of all kinds) through facts and
> empowerment. Subordinated to that one factor that overdetermines the social
> arena as a whole, the good old well-performed class analysis.
> With violence too if needed. You're certainly not going to find people
> like me among the passive-aggressive trolls in the pacifism camp.
>
> Best intentions and I believe over and out for now
> Alexander
>
> Den fre 2 nov. 2018 kl 17:52 skrev Alice Yang :
>
>> Trust me, race and gender are not social ghosts. They have extremely
>> material consequences.
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 2, 2018 at 12:48 AM Alexander Bard 
>> wrote:
>>
> Dear Justin
>>>
>>> Was Karl Marx an idealist or a materialist? I'm perfectly happy to leave
>>> that for you and others to decide. Because I'm a pragmatist and my ideas
>>> are pragmatist and the rest is just wordplay to me. I'm interested in
>>> factual truth and in whether something works or does not work. I'm also
>>> interested in opinion being challenged on its own merit. Therefore I
>>> radically separate person and opinion. The whole idea that who speaks
>>> affects the value of what is being said is just value relativism of the
>>> worst kind. I know this is a popular kindergarden game among identitarians
>>> of both the extreme right and the extreme left (as if "being seen and
>>> heard" must be divided equally among some five-year-olds). Because I can
>>> see no other value in this habit than infantile attention-seeking. Which
>>> means it is in itself victim-seeking and therefore victimhood-encouraging
>>> and certainly not heroic and empowering for anybody. And I can't think of
>>> anything less Marxist than that. As I said, identitarianism is Rousseau
>>> through and through. How it even sneaked into "The Left" beats me.
>>>
>>> Everybody should radically be allowed to speak and each argument should
>>> be judged on its own merits, not according to who forwards it. That
>>> strengthens the overall the debate the most. That is if you're interested
>>> in debates having successful and productive outcomes. At least I am.
>>> Anything else is just a waste of valuable time. So does race exist? Yes, it
>>> does, undeniably, but only as a social ghost. My brother and I had no idea
>>> one of us was black and of us was white until we where 14. We had no idea
>>> we ought to have cared. Now we can spend our entire lives going on and on
>>> about social ghosts and, like David pointed out, end up being the very
>>> people who defend and keep the social ghosts the most and the longest.
>>> However I find that tragic. I want to move on. And class being firmly tied
>>> to capital and power is therefore the factual overarching category under
>>> which we can then deal with minor issues like race and gender. Effectively.
>>> Now if that is not a materialist argument as much as an activist one, then
>>> I don't know what is. If anything is idealist and not materialist it must
>>> certainly be the obsession with social ghosts. But sure, the I and the M
>>> labels are yours to decide. I could not care less.
>>>
>>> Best intentions
>>> Alexander
>>>
>>> Den fre 2 nov. 2018 kl 04:00 skrev Justin Charles <
>>> justinrobertchar...@gmail.com>:
>>>
>> Coming in late to this thread but the anti-identity current that's
 growing 

Re: (no subject)

[Johnatan Petterson]

i guess the word class has been largely delegitimized thru due to the
efforts of the french theory and in particular Deleuze and Guattari, whom i
know well-
in a passage in ATP, they favor the work of Gabriel Tarde (sociologist
contemporaneous to Durkheim) and talk about "quanta" this is part of the
physical political vision of theirs
which can answer this question regarding incivility and internet fascism
(molecularity) i think what is urgent for the Left is to bring to the
Commons (Democrates and Republicans in what regards USA,
as i am writing from the UE) the debate about rapidly controlling this
Fascist Violence, as described in the book by Angela Nagle "Kill all
Normies" which i am currently in the course of reading . We need to bring
the issue of stopping, blocking the Dark Net and all its subcultural flight
lines.  the ways of the First Amendment about Freedom of Expression
ought to be changed in regards to Philosophy. the Intellect & Philosophy
are the base of the US Constitution. the Intellect & Philosophy should seek
deep if Freedom of Expression truely encompasses the Secrecy with which has
developed modes of a new technology of expression (the "global" Internet)
or are instead undermining the citizens individuals' fundamental rights of
expression. with the tragic consequence of the disintegration of the
Commons, such as have been observed for instance by de Tocqueville in his
essay on Democracy in America in 1830. It is quite possible the with Trump,
the adventure will poise the US in a situation in which a choice will be
hard to make: either to go further in the instanciation of the global
Empire over so many Alt-Right outpost (Orban, Le Pen etc) in order to
refine to control the segments, either to self-destroy . The right of
expression is based on an ability to think one's expression, the ability to
think one's expression is based on the tracability of one self as the
source of expression, which is responsability for one's expression in front
of the Public "Eye" insight, or Commons, thus when Secrecy, and Anonymous
Expression escapes from Democracy, we have a new Natural Right , previously
controlled or tamed by the Commons of Democracy. We can as well have
encouraged Fear of Self Expression, and this could explain the failure to
resist the atomisation via Alt Right wealthy outpost around the planet.



Le dim. 28 oct. 2018 à 14:49, ari  a écrit :

> At the end of a long decade of global austerity, that the 'c' (lass) word
> should be so taboo on the left that it provokes accusations of nostalgia at
> best, sexism and racism at worst, I find rather worrying and sad. If one
> said 'occupational status,' 'income bracket,' or whatever politically
> neutralising appellative the local national statistical agency goes by,
> such knee-jerk reflexes would probably be less common.
>
> But does politics mean belonging?
>
> For identity politics champions, it really does seem to: their political
> reasoning moves along lines of inclusion/exclusion,
> recognition/suppression, voice/silence and, in its most pedestrian moments
> here, even in-fashion/out-of-fashion.
>
> But can identity politics be inclusive of those inherently ill-disposed to
> narcissism?
>
> More fundamentally, does an understanding of politics as transformative
> action not clash with one of it as a practice of belonging? And why does
> the latter dominate the scene on left and right, just as hope in system
> change is at its lowest?
>
> I do think that I, some self, alone, is ultimately incapable of politics,
> as is the endless multiplication of selfsameness.
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Re: (no subject)

[Johnatan Petterson]

i have seen isabelle stengers in brussels in 1994 who was dissing "economy"
as the "real enemy" of movements
she was connected with.
the leftish dream of labor never became aesthetic or economic, one does not
contradict the other.
on what basis would economy and aesthetic contradict one another?
economy seems in ari's post like metric.
spinoza seemed opposed to metric (measurement) in his quest for aesthetic
freedom.
how would you plug metrics into the aesthetic (creative) understanding ?




Le ven. 26 oct. 2018 à 01:07, Alice Yang  a
écrit :

> Identity politics *is* class struggle. The nostalgic leftish dream of
> labor became aesthetic because it did not include women and the racially
> oppressed.
>
> On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 6:47 PM ari  wrote:
>
>>  The primacy of identity has transmorphed class struggle into
>>  ressentiment politics. Generation identity is the bastard child of the
>>  failed alterglobalisation movement. If at a time when poverty is the
>>  source of wealth you insist on denying the economy matters, you sure
>>  inhabit culture, but it's a culture of denial.
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
> --
> Alice
> www.alicesparklykat.com
> insta: @alicesparklykat 
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Fwd: Le Monde Diplomatique (november ) (for Catalonia, and new economy possibilities)

[Johnatan Petterson]

-- Forwarded message --
From: Johnatan Petterson <internet.petter...@gmail.com>
Date: 2017-10-31 3:00 GMT+01:00
Subject: Re:  Le Monde Diplomatique (november ) (for Catalonia,
and new economy possibilities)
To: nettime - public list


extract from Monde Diplo, see published article = this nov.
:
[[Dans ce contexte, le défi catalan, qui se présente comme un mouvement de
sécession, tire son énergie motrice du fossé creusé entre les Espagnols et
leurs institutions, d’un rejet de la corruption (pourtant aussi présente en
Catalogne qu’ailleurs), sans oublier une hostilité particulière aux
vestiges de l’absolutisme, encore nombreux en Espagne, où le roi, l’Église
et les « grands » demeurent les principaux propriétaires terriens du pays,
et à ce titre bénéficient des aides européennes au développement des
régions (1,85 million d’euros de subventions en 2003 pour feu la duchesse
d’Albe).]]

don't you find this crazy ?? so is EU actually (it seems secretely)
supporting feodality !!

actually the EU lack of enthousiasm is organized, (or at the least) the
accusation of 'liberalism' and 'finance', and 'austerity' by some
philosophers, is actually convenient to feodality, and
organized. does this seem paradoxical a claim? no. it helps keep unchanged
the secret philosophy of this organization.
the 'order' described by Machiavelli.

philosophy has this capacity to 'see' the 'order(s)'. this is how , only
the philosophic mind is in the capacity to be called by (self) ' a
producer', only 'philosophers= those spirits seeing the order(s)' can
become productive. the workers only follow the move of society. and the
king stands transe-fixed at the center of EU. the pillar.

hence the decrease in value of the attribution of status to the 'producers',
because of a change 1) feodal, as been described on this list, a return to
feodality allowed by the attenuation of war time memory in our societies,
and, with. 2) molecularisation of the 'tools' of production.

the consequence sketched from it (in Le Monde Diplomatique this November ),
that we have to get a status of 'producers' everyone, after the right
declaration of 1789 copied/translated from the right to 'property', is
pertaining to the same movement of alzheimer in we, us, the collective
brain.

it belongs to the same 'social' function of politics (entertained by the
king of EU)  when they stand up against transcendental, the ideals or void
ghosts, such as finance.

instead than abolish monarchy, we learn that we subvention this ghastly
phantasmatic horror !

please stop this !
no more subvention, everything public !

Johnny











2017-10-29 18:32 GMT+01:00 Morlock Elloi <morlockel...@gmail.com>:

> Solemn Declaration on European Union
> ...
> 1. Objectives
> ...
> 1.2 The Heads of State or Government reaffirm the Declaration on Democracy
> adopted by the European Council on 8 April 1978 which stated that respect
> for and maintenance of representative democracy and human rights in each
> Member State are essential elements of membership of the European
> Communities.
> ...
>
>
>
> One down, three to go.
>
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Re: Bankruptcy of ideologies ... except one

[Johnatan Petterson]

I read le Monde Diplomatique.
Do you really see these millions of discontent or content people,
pressurize on their heads of states, as them to trigger the general
implosion?
I do not trust any ability to predict a course of events.
I am Cartesian, scientist, or a digital artist rather-whatever.
I think that some predictions are not related to truth, yet each is a way
on a path to construct something,
its part of another (non-conscious ) process. In a statement, I would
search to know to decipher what social machine,
this statement belongs to. Social Machines are generally not
explicitly  referred to in the statements.
 These Social Machines do not pertain a Sphere of Referenciality. Nobody
knows about them, its not the job of the human mind to reckon' them.
such a social machine: Its existence is something which can be sensed
though, even if it has no name,
appearing to the searcher of 'truth', if that makes any sense.

[The Social Machine can be tiny micro-molecular, or/and more hazy/general
in its relations to other Social Machines.]

Having said this, I don't see if China as a State (not talking about Social
Machines anymore) can have a perspective
to win something out of a war with Nato? I don't follow many news on
internet so I don't know what could Nato win something substancial from
waging a war with China?
Counterpunch is busy trying, not to build a Post-Siriza Internationale
Constituant power, but to feed on, and create ressentment against the
Elites, or (e)lites if ya want,
I am, wondering why Counterpunch does that: 1§1) they have an audience, and
decades of book-reviews, which might be what people call 'ideology'. <<- if
this last word makes any sense.
If you go on their website, you can see how typically American, they are,
in their modes of expression, platform of remedies to all illnesses, they
are a bit like in the book
'The Confident-Man' by Herman Melville, this situation of deterritorialized
psyche in a destroyed american big desert, since landing there without
Mammy and Daddy,
having nothing else to do than selling news and advertizing
miracle inducing products.

To build a Post-Siriza, one thing for sure is the Left to close down this
type of platform/ideology out from the (de)construction. Or it's a sham.

Respectuously,
JohnnyTan







2017-10-24 6:07 GMT+02:00 Morlock Elloi <morlockel...@gmail.com>:

> One should be carefully following 19th CPC National Congress. It's more
> relevant than Drudgereport.
>
> Tl;Dr: that no one will separate China from its components (Taiwan & South
> China Sea island) was mentioned 9 times. The Party will maintain strict
> control of all Chinese politics.
>
> 1.4 billion Chinese stand behind this (west-funded jokers like Dalai Lama,
> Wei Wei etc. notwithstanding.).
>
> 0.32 billion Americans stand behind, or against, restroom access for
> feeblegendered.
>
> 0.51 billion EU citizens stand for, or against, immigration and pensions.
>
> 0.14 billion Russians stand behind Putin.
>
> The stage is set for war.
>
> Guess who is going to win (hint: those willing to die.)
>
> On 10/23/17, 19:39, Johnatan Petterson wrote:
>
>> Hi.
>> I don't qualify to answer about ideology.
>> I am an ignorant as to the communist jargon used by counterpunch.
>> I don't even like Kant. It's so confused.
>> But I'd just venture to say that 'the objective conditions' referred to
>> at the end of the article,
>> if they are not there, it seems they can be found on the road forward,
>> obviously, if the Elites in China,
>> for example, are attracted onwards, they are not appealed by Mao. My
>> guess (i only know China by West TV)
>> is that the Institutions, like schools, etc, are still appealed by Mao.
>> If a Post-Siriza, neo Hardt-Negri constituant power emerges, it is from
>> people who can go further onwards,
>> why? because it's the sense of the animal which is Humanity, it's head,
>> or brain, if you want. The Head is Prospective, it searches.
>> I reckon' the belly is important, and I say: it is wrong to think that
>> Archaism and Onwardness contradicts.
>> That might be , the hidden line for a new future to loom up from
>> nothingness: this ignorance from the Elites in China or West,
>> that Archaism, High-Tech, do not contra-dict, and Belly and Nose can
>> re-shuffle for Humanity's benefit.
>>
>> -JohnnyTan
>>
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Re: Bankruptcy of ideologies ... except one

[Johnatan Petterson]

Hi.
I don't qualify to answer about ideology.
I am an ignorant as to the communist jargon used by counterpunch.
I don't even like Kant. It's so confused.
But I'd just venture to say that 'the objective conditions' referred to at
the end of the article,
if they are not there, it seems they can be found on the road forward,
obviously, if the Elites in China,
for example, are attracted onwards, they are not appealed by Mao. My guess
(i only know China by West TV)
is that the Institutions, like schools, etc, are still appealed by Mao.
If a Post-Siriza, neo Hardt-Negri constituant power emerges, it is from
people who can go further onwards,
why? because it's the sense of the animal which is Humanity, it's head, or
brain, if you want. The Head is Prospective, it searches.
I reckon' the belly is important, and I say: it is wrong to think that
Archaism and Onwardness contradicts.
That might be , the hidden line for a new future to loom up from
nothingness: this ignorance from the Elites in China or West,
that Archaism, High-Tech, do not contra-dict, and Belly and Nose can
re-shuffle for Humanity's benefit.

-JohnnyTan

2017-10-23 18:34 GMT+02:00 Morlock Elloi :

> The article below illustrates what happens when ideologies die ... except
> one, the will for power. There is nothing exciting offered today except
> conquering the world, killing half the population and ruling the stone age
> remnants with high tech. The alternatives are so fu*king boring - saving
> this or that, not doing this or that, resisting this or that, going back X
> years to some nostalgic equilibrium. Fu*k that. Let's have some action!
>
>
>
> https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/10/23/careening-toward-nuc
> lear-war-the-political-paralysis-of-europe-russia-and-china/
>
>
> Careening Toward Nuclear War: the Political Paralysis of Europe, Russia
> and China
>
> by Dimitris Konstantakopoulos
>
> Never since the Cuban Missile Crisis has there been such an unstable
> situation in the global political system, including the system of
> management of nuclear arms and US power.
>
> To the already exceptionally tense and dangerous atmosphere around North
> Korea there has now been added a crisis over Iran, which is pushing the
> European powers and Russia to become aligned against the policies of USA
> and Israel preparing a new, greater and, very probably, nuclear war against
> Iran. A very serious political crisis is smoldering in Washington itself,
> with some people believing it is the most serious in the history of the
> United States.
>
> In the most official way, in front of the representatives of all the
> nations of the world, for the first time since the defeat of Nazi Germany
> in 1945, the President of the United States, Donald Trump, has spelled out
> the threat of annihilating a nation of 25 million people.
>
> His speech represents the negation of all achievements of human
> civilization. And this speech did not provoke any serious, proportionate or
> meaningful reaction in the world.
>
> The absence of such reaction can be attributed to various factors and
> different calculations. But its consequence is none other than to
> legitimize that kind of threats today and their  realization tomorrow.
>
> Such a lack of reaction does not deter and discourage, it encourages and
> facilitates the use of nuclear weapons and it increases the obvious risk of
> a global catastrophe, something which was proven especially in the 20th
> century. In the wake of the 1st World War both camps believed the other one
> was bluffing, and that, in any case, the conflict would not last more than
> a few months. The conflict lasted four years and destroyed all Europe.
>
> The policy of trying to appease and accommodate Hitler has also been the
> main policy of Britain, France and USSR, before the 2nd World War. It only
> encouraged Nazi German aggression and facilitated the War. Germany all but
> won it, its troops having been stopped only some miles from the Kremlin. It
> was finally defeated, but only at an unbelievably enormous cost paid by all
> European nations, and in particular by the Soviets, the Yugoslavs, the
> Greeks and the British.
>
> The deafening silence of Europe, the European Left, Russia and China
>
> It is obvious that the actions and the policy of the US government under
> President Trump took all major powers by surprise and shocked them. They
> did not expect them, did not forestall them and now limit themselves more
> or less to a role of spectator of actions that literally could involve the
> survival of humanity.
>
> Europe hopes it will wake one day with the Trump problem having been
> resolved by itself. From time to time they say to Americans that what they
> are doing is terrible and dangerous (it is indeed terrible and this is
> exactly why they are doing it!). In Germany many top specialists on foreign
> policy published an appeal in Zeit. They believe German “anti-Americanism”
> is the danger, not the US 

Augmented Reality against Assimilation

[Johnatan Petterson]

There's must be a right somewhere to different people to Associate, and
refuse to be assimilated.
The Spartians, the Athenians, vanished. The Jews celebrate non-assimilation
from Greek Empire, in Hanukkah each year.
Shmuël Trigano has made an Essay 'L'Idéologie Dominante' about the fantasy
of relinquish the Nation-State, moved
as they get by the UE, which is, according to him, the hearth of the spread
of this Empirium to all Nations.
The idea is to defend the right to not get assimilated.

There is as well the claim of '
https://www.opendemocracy.net/yossef-rapoport/two-states-in-one-homeland-solving-riddle-of-resolution-2334
'
Why cannot we solve this this way: as many Territories, many Association
(eg.Israel/Palestine; Catalunya/España) if a certain quota is reached to
exist, can be Administered,
via the Tele-Augmented Reality Glasses: each Citizen can switch 'on' and
'off' the glasses, toggle to each different Administration you have to want
to be a citizen of.

In a sense, then Government adapts to this situation by building 'servers'
to promulgate the Laws to be respected (voted by parliament, chambers of
deputees, like it's done now); (and discussed by citizen in relation with
different levels of Associations, up to the Chamber of the Citizen of the
World, now replacing, or concurrent to the UN Council)

Some might say that this is pushing the 'Control' Society a tinge ahead.
Technology would be a repellent to some conservatives. Yet everybody now
uses different email accounts, and
it was customary since centuries ago to belong to Rotary,
Free-Thinking-Masonry, and be part of the Communist Party, and as well be a
Rom, and a Transexual. Why not to settle the conflict, and
create Freedom. My theory is that the first situation is the ones of which
are described by Machiavelli, the Prince, and then come the questions
addressed by Melville in Billy Budd.

2017-10-22 8:20 GMT+02:00 Carsten Agger :

> Yesterday, I went to the protest in Barcelona against the incarceration of
> the leaders of Omnium and ANC, two important separatist movements.
>
> The Catalan question is complex, and there are lots of opinions on all
> sides. However, after speaking with a lot of people down here and
> witnessing a quite large demonstration it seems clear that Catalan
> nationalism is *not* about excluding anyone the way (say) Danish racism and
> British UKIP-ism is.
>
> After all, Catalonia has been an immigration destination for years, and
> people are used to living together with two or more languages, with family
> members from all over Spain. The all-too-familiar right-wing obsession
> with Islam and the "terror threat" is conspicuously absent from Catalan
> politics.
>
> And it's not all about language or regional identity, as many
> Spanish-speaking people with origins in other parts of Spain wholeheartedly
> support Catalan indepence.
>
> Rather, it's about a rejection of and rebellion against the Spanish state
> which is seen as oppressive and riddled by remnants of Francoism. The
> slogans were radical: "Fora les forces d'ocupació", "out with the
> occupation forces!" and "the streets will always be ours!"
>
> Indeed, for many of the young people it seems to be about getting rid of
> the Spanish state in order to implement a much more leftist policy on all
> levels of society - as one sign had it, "we're seditious, we want to rebel
> and declare independence and have a revolution!" First independence,
> afterwards people will take charge themselves, seems to be the sentiment.
>
> "The people rules and the government obeys!" - is another slogan. The
> conservative forces behind Puigdemont (the current president) may have
> other ideas, but for now these are the people they have allied themselves
> with - people who actually believe in the direct rule of the people
> themselves. Looking at the people present in the demo, it's clear that it's
> a really broad section of society - old and young, but everybody very
> peaceful and friendly. There were so many people in the streets that it was
> getting too much, some especially old people had to be escorted out through
> the completely filled streets.
>
> The European Union may have decided that Catalans should forget all about
> independence for the sake of the peace of mind of everyone, but these
> people honestly don't seem to give a damn.
>
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Re: Constitutioanl radicalism

[Johnatan Petterson]

oh thanks for the information(s)
i felt like we were doing it in the list 'right here & now' (the design,
and fractured cultural specific situation methodologies)
that might be 'aesthetic experience' lapses, which prooves yur right, & we
've passed beyond the perimeters,
left infinite speed.
i don't know Lyotard. Deleuze was teacher in his Paris 8 universitiy. in
his 1984book on Foucault, infinite forces in Thought are localized to
philo-classicism in Descartes & Spinoza, Leibniz.
same 1984 book explores the new limitations to the infinite speeds: this as
the 'Kantian moment', 'carbon'- fold on themselves of the forces of physis.
switches death, limiting factor.
(i think the allusion is open-free to the rise on atheism in Europe after
French 1789. )-
knowing this part of the Deleuze notions, i am wondering what/how to place
this Gaia reconfiguration in the thoughts of Man? such as a new trend?
some new limit? (for Deleuze, the Forces in the Form 'Man' come illimited,
that is the infinite speed(s) reach not into Man's particulars aesthetic
concsious experiences. Yet, its 'illimited'.
A Force is expansive. even if it is the Force to destroy Man Form (which
btw according to Spinoza is not eternal, because limited.) so to become
eternal, infinity is important. at the least this conception and line of
reasoning promulgated very well, abstracted from its premises.
regards,
Johnatan.




2017-10-15 0:03 GMT+02:00 Eric Kluitenberg <e...@xs4all.nl>:

> Hello Johnatan,
>
> Maybe I should not have included that phrase on the infinity of art /
> techno-science / advanced capitalism, as it distracts from the main point
> about the necessity of  a deep engagement in deliberate acts of political
> design, and a shift from ‘revolutionary’ tactics to methodologies to tailor
> cultural and political interventions to specific situations.
>
> Then again, the realisation that we are no longer looking at infinite
> horizons but at limited perimeters seems quite crucial.
>
> The phrase is actually an implicit reference to an observation that Jean
> François Lyotard made in an essay titled “Presenting the Unpresentable: The
> Sublime” (1982). His observation there is that the avant-garde arts,
> techno-science, and advanced capitalism share an 'affinity with infinity’
> (all Lyotard’s terms). The avant-garde arts testify to the infinity of
> possible ways of seeing, the techno-sciences to the infinity of possible
> ways of knowing, and advanced capitalism to the infinite capacity to
> realise (seeing all, knowing all, realising all).
>
> This idea is over now - there is a clear and final boundary that we are
> approaching rapidly: the depletion of the earth’s resources. Gaia may
> reconfigure if we were to pass that boundary and tend towards a new
> semi-stable equilibrium, but that will be most likely without humans able
> to survive there. So, this introduces the finality that puts an end to this
> ‘affinity with infinity’ that Lyotard was talking about.
>
> As for the specificity of these three terms: Lyotard uses them quite
> broadly, but with the avant-garde arts he refers primarily to the
> historical avantgardes in the arts (i.e. before WWII) and its post-war
> inheritors. The techno-sciences refers to the domain of the application of
> instrumental forms of knowledge production and technological methods that
> he had previously written extensively about in The postmodern Condition
> (1979), his report on the state of knowledge production. And finally with
> ‘advanced’ capitalism he refers to everything that comes after Ford and
> Frederick Taylor (scientific management).
>
> You might be right that these categories are too broad to make them stick
> locally - still I think it is noteworthy that this idea of infinity that
> Lyotard suggested is over and done with - there is no such thing as
> infinity when it comes to human affairs, we must find ways to live within
> strict limitations or risk to become extinct as a species.
>
> It is against this backdrop that the nitty gritty work of political
> design, applied to analysis, critique, mobilisation, new forms of
> organisation, concrete political intervention, civic networking, new forms
> of artistic enquiry and aesthetic experience, unfolds. And ‘laboratory
> Spain’ is one of the first places that I look for to find inspiration and
> practical models of cultural and political practice.
>
> btw - Simona Levi keeps us up to date with much of that on this list every
> now and then, but the actual ground work is very extensive indeed, not just
> in Barcelona, so let’s take some cues from that!
>
> Hope this elaboration helps somewhat to address your non-understanding…
>
> all bests,
> Eric
>
> On 14 Oct 2017, at 15:49, Johnatan Petterson <internet.petter...@gmail.com>

Re: Constitutioanl radicalism

[Johnatan Petterson]

hello Eric.
why not to call 'design' subversive input and outright denying of anything,
or rather B.Latour would say, 'visualize' them. by design or by
art-techno-science and advanced capitalism? i ask because these last three
categories
do not make sense, they are not detailed to a symbolic meaning in my scope.
they have a too broad range of signification, and so i cannot re-copy-paste
them in the current understanding of this list' conversation. could you
fragment these three words and stabilize around new categories, should you
what would you advance. (to help you to better understand my
non-understanding: i don't know at what point an artwork ceases to pertain
to 'infinite horizon' (if the latter concept meant -any-thing) and becomes
some designing, past a finite boundary? give some examples please! same
with techno-science,, and 'advanced capitalism': how do you distinguish
phases of capitalism, according to what schemes? (historical,
paradigmatics, geographical, cultural, biological?? etc.) thanks)-

john.

2017-10-14 13:50 GMT+02:00 Eric Kluitenberg :

> ]-]-]...[-[-[
>
> In Latour’s terms - though I would not insist on them in any way - this
> would be part of the process of composing the good common world (of humans
> and nonhumans - the ‘collective’), and yes Gaia does provide us with a
> perimeter for that, which includes all political factions (even those in
> outright denial) - this is a perimeter, which is to say a final boundary to
> which we are drawing ever closer, and not an infinite horizon which recedes
> as we move forward. The end of infinity (of art, techno-science, and
> advanced capitalism) is a new condition to which all of these factions have
> to answer in one way or another.
>
> bests,
> Eric
>
> ———
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Re: Reddit/place versus Poietic Generator

[Johnatan Petterson]

2017-10-13 13:36 GMT+02:00 olivier auber :

> My message seems to have been misunderstood. This is normal because I
> posted it here in French by mistake. Here is a raw english version.
>
>
désolé olivier,
mon message n'était pas un comment sur ton travail, une question:
mais à la fois il partait d' une tentative de comparaison entre le propos
engagé par ton dernier message,
et la nouvelle dernière tendance en website cyber $€ construction,
et il constituait une prière de renvoyer des infos vers la liste aux fins
d'une mienne meilleure compréhension des implications de celle-là (la cyber
$ construction) dans la réalité (réalité au sens platonicien, physique-
c'est-à-dire)-

par example on peut se demander pourquoi ]avec des outils comme wix,
wordpress, facebook[ il y a des templates: pourquoi les gens sont
encouragés selon des méthodes presques répétitives, de construire leur
sites? que ce soit un site de cuisine de danse de finance, il y a toujours
au minimum peu de variation. je comprends, c'est un language,
l'informatique.

mais à la fois, et d'où l'intérêt de la comparaison avec ton message,
pourquoi, et même pour faire des $$$, ne pas faire des sites avec plus de
liberté de ton?

les gens trouvent une zone de comfort faite par le pouvoir (invisible)
décisionnel , tombée du ciel pour eux.

ce sont des flux d'imitation qui s'embraient dans la zone de comfort,
convergent vers  des trous noirs-template au niveau des jugements des gens.
(soit les gens qui imittent, soit les gens qui créent les contraintes "à
suivre")
aussi ce qu'est le travail et ce qu'est l'amusement, et ce genre de
questions peuvent faire partie de leurs réflexions à un échelon supérieur
(quel rapport entre le concept ludique et le concept décisionnel)-

(should you want a translation, just ask me)-
johnatan

>
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Re: Reddit/place versus Poietic Generator

[Johnatan Petterson]

wix is a platform to build your website in 20minutes. there are
pre-formated templates: themes with small variations,
and very limited availability to upload sound, images. so as i will publish
soon, with a website,
i am (rather studying wordpress & ftp). i talk about this here, because
yesterday night i so have seen what seems to be one, a giant driving engine
in the cybernetic-economy.
every one owning working in real life, "must own aswell a website in our
days" so goes the ordering words. last month i thought the whole web was
turning facebook, social network,
but yet, no! i have to reckon since last night,  this is another
(previously hidden)  aspect on the issue. i am wonder how deep it is, if we
could say that the real life business and real life people have
certain aspects of their ideas encouraged, their subjectivities re-enforced
in one or the other direction, modeled along these lines of
processualities, because of these trends in the 'right' web communication.
or reversely,  how much it can
be a way to study the people, just by understanding the tactics of
wordpress or joomla in the galaxy?  for whom these are built to be beholded
anyway? in case some one here knows about a study (self-)analyzing on this
subject, be it book, a pdf or wordpress website,
please forward it to the list, thank you. johnatan.

Le 12 octobre 2017 à 23:50, olivier auber  a écrit
:

> Pixelcanvas, Reddit/place, etc. sont dans le veine de nombreuses autres
> expériences menées ces 20 dernières années par divers artistes du net. Rien
> de nouveau sur le fond donc. Seule l'échelle change, ce qui fait que la
> masse réalise soudainement que ça existe. La caractéristique principale de
> ces expériences est la rémanence des traces laissées par les uns et les
> autres si bien que les nouveaux arrivants ont affaire avec un état de
> l'image avec lequel ils doivent composer. La deuxième caractéristique est
> que personne ne sait précisément à quoi il a contribué au final. Il y a en
> effet une perte d'information entre l'action individuelle et la rétroaction
> du tout, ce que j'assimile à une forme d'aliénation. Si ce genre
> d'expériences constitue sans doute un bonne métaphore de la société telle
> qu'elle est : une sorte de dialogue confus entre les morts, les cadavres,
> ou les absents, elle ne donne guère de pistes pour aller au delà.
> Au contraire, le Générateur poïétique (#poieticgenerator) propose une
> situation de dialogue entre les vivants ; des humains dotés de toutes leurs
> capacités cognitives qui sont bel et bien présents. Chacun peut repérer à
> chaque instant sa trace dans le tout émergeant. Ainsi, le Générateur
> poïétique tente de repousser les limites de l'aliénation... Pratiquement,
> c'est beaucoup plus difficile à réaliser. Si Pixelcanvas et autres peuvent
> se vanter d'avoir enregistré le passage de millions de "morts", le
> Générateur poïétique, après 30 ans d'expériences, ne peut prétendre avoir
> rassemblé que quelques dizaines de "vivants" au même moment.
>
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Re: Barcelona: nationalism, municipalism?

[Johnatan Petterson]

Oh. I generously accept the criticism. I certainly don't know 'theory'
as to what relates to this list aura.

I have an habit to post to Virginia-e (the deleuze-guattari list
there), but not anymore it seems, emptied due to the facebook
plateforms, and may-be the explosion of the deleuze-guattari bubble
into many various directions (Stengers, Harraway, Shapiro, Cvlp, the
object theorists, the french, Agamben, Hubermann etc, etc etc..)

I can understand that it will be hard to understand, in regard to
this explosion, what Theory is, or how in what could it be portrayed.
But I am talking about Philosophers, singularities, lucioles. Now
if the Theory you'r thinking about, is the one concerned by the
excellent work around what I have seen from your peers and yours about
cyberology, it might not be Philosophy.

But there can be 'passerelles', mutual interests from further
developments happening in the many travels. I myself (in my work) do
not i imagine idolize Text, nor Concepts. Concepts, are Ideas being
handled, by Minds of Man I guess.

I try to express my Concepts by Cinema . Yet - as like in this moment
- I use Text to develop relationship with people ( off or 'on' the
Wwww. ) instead than writing a diary. i think it helps me to think
further, but its not the goal i set to myself, of course. And other
ways happen when it comes to think 'deep', than talking on the phone.

Yet in general, I find that the attitude of the experts, and there
should be experts in the EU Parliament deciding Territory in
Catalunya, in Strasbourg or whomever decides for the philosophy behind
the EU Projects noticing how Deleuze (who is one of most recent
philosopher to have developed to such a high degree of refinement in
analysis possibilities, details in conceptualisations) how Deleuze as
Text, as conceptual fabrique, is categorized by these experts, and
seing how stuck the EU is to think its future, how shy, that was the
sense of what i said, we have the people and the emotions, and it
is each citizen who needs to develop an ability to think ("dresser
un peuple de penseurs" Nietzsche) that is the role of theory. But
'references' are important, like Plato or Spinoza, but i admit my
posts being lazy in explanation as to why I mention a name, i don't
want to be a professional philosopher or handler of concepts. And
I do not qualify the talks between the experts in EU politics or
the experts in deleuze, i do not say they are capable to Create, to
Think Creatively (which is not a accumulative slogan on my keyboard)
. For that we need years time, each citizen on his own to study and
experiment, invent one's methods of creation. Solitude is certainly
exceptionally rich in existencial textures. Like the idea of Territory
as a tool to understand the problem in Catalunya, is not a word
I found in Beckett, but years of living and meditation on living
with sensations, which I decided to call such, 'territory' and use
it to evaluate, help others evaluate my life. again, Deleuze , and
Guattari, have reading their texts, it has helped me pay attention
to the 'singular' value behind a word, like this one (Territory) for
instance.

Others being the experts in texts and keyboard and conference rooms of
the EU or the Ayutamiento.

So i wondering if 'concepts as productive common denominators' would
you imagine it as a kind of Common Territory (be it happening on the
internet, or in the countryside or the urban landscape?)

Thanks for your gifts, most precious enjoy I they arrived here !

Best Regards,
Johnatan.


2017-10-05 10:38 GMT+02:00 Geert Lovink :

> I agree with you. Not enough new concepts that impact the future and not
> merely respond and reflect.
>
> But it not just concepts themselves. There are not enough new ways to
> identify what theory is today and how to agree together on certain concepts
> that make sense and energize people. Concepts as productive common
> demoninators.


<>


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Re: Barcelona: nationalism, municipalism?

[Johnatan Petterson]

Holà Todo!


yesterday, There was about 700 of us walking peaciful in the streets of
Perpignan, we: in sympathy, our nerval ganglions in happy solidarity with
people in Barcelona, which is a city in the south of Catalunya.


Emmanuel Macron and his government directed by Edouard Philipe, boast being
'Reformists', progressists, and surf on re-invention of Europe.

Jean-Luc Mélenchon and France Insoumise seems to align on the traditional
role of French Institutions, which heigth was at the times of Henry Bergson
and Marcel Proust, then two world wars, and a new attempt was made with UN
seat and Charles deGaulle. Now since the Iraq war French international say
waned.

Gilles Deleuze who wrote once 'regionalisms' being 'fascisms'.

 To the effect of Edouard Philipe thinking to declare to Mélenchon the
latter was 'Conservatist' in the debate animated by Léa Salamé.  The 'world
we live in' or 'being a revolutionary' with France Insoumise' said the
prime minister to conclude the debate and l'émission.


Europe Institutions, and (to what point is it the same?) most head of
States in the Continent had it rather not to say, and let Mariano Rajoy
obedients 'make it dirty'. What is at stakes is the Ideal  Question of
Territory and the humans (and critters would say Donna Harraway?) relation
to Territory.

Macron is trying to bring a new degree in the digital revolution to the
World from Europe from France.

The question of 'Code du Travail', the question of the quality of work, how
one worker has time to 'work the work' to de-code, the  relate with our
work, I reckon holds some refractive relation with the Quality of Territory.

Is it the Territorry of Beckett's S.D.F.? or the management of French
Territory by a Federal EU or a Central Mélenchon State?


It seems to none one either Central Institution of France or the EU can
offer us an answer to the 'Barbarians' of the Roman Emprire, or the
'Democracy of the XIX siglo' (Whitehead) which digital revolution stands
for in the beginning of the 21st Century a little bit everywhere on the
planet.

I anyway would say that if EU would be given by inhabitants, citizens of
Europe, the power to manage the billions of Critters  Territories on the
Continent, Beckett's study of Territory would prove wrong Deleuze's saying,
that Catalunya claim of autonomy under EU Rule, is fascist.

Barcelona is a beautiful city. The new Formula is not that the 'People is
Lacking' but that The People is well here and now,  there, yet it lacks
Philosophers. There is not enough concepts. (totally different than the
Deleuze-Guattari claim [What is Philosophy?]  The Brains of the Inhabitants
(and thus the Rulers' brains as well) are still circumnavigating around
concepts produced by old 19-20th Centurys Central Institutions, see the
Chapter on Regime de Signes in ATP for that matter. Our emotion are guided
by emojis, our emotions are International, even more progressist than the
EU digital revolution: we advance with Worldly (Off-) Internet Emotions.
While our Concepts lag behind us.

2017-10-04 5:49 GMT+02:00 Frederic Neyrat :

> Hi,
>
> I found this text interesting:
> ​"​
> The future of the EU at stake in Catalonia
> ​"
> http://www.atimes.com/article/future-eu-stake-catalonia/
>
> Quote (amongst other interesting things):
> ​"​
> The Catalan government beat the fascist goons with two very simple codes –
> as revealed by La Vanguardia. “I’ve got the Tupperware. Where do we meet?”
> was the code on a prepaid mobile phone for people to collect and protect
> ballot boxes. “I’m the paper traveler” was the code to protect the actual
> paper ballots. Julian Assange/WikiLeaks had warned about the world’s first
> Internet war as deployed by Madrid to smash the electronic voting system.
> The counterpunch was – literally – on paper. The US National Security
> Agency must have learned a few lessons.​
> ​"
> ​
> Best,
>
> Frédéric Neyrat​



<>




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