Re: [newbie] defraging
On Wed, 19 May 2004 06:15:07 +1000 Stephen Kuhn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's IBM for ya. Nonsense. I've had one of their Deskstars in 24/7 service since 10/2001, and have never had to defrag it :). stephen kuhn - owner -- David E. Fox Thanks for letting me [EMAIL PROTECTED]change magnetic patterns [EMAIL PROTECTED] on your hard disk. --- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] defraging
On Tue, 2004-05-18 at 16:35, Kaj Haulrich wrote: On Tuesday 18 May 2004 22:15, Stephen Kuhn wrote: On Wed, 2004-05-19 at 06:07, Kaj Haulrich wrote: On Tuesday 18 May 2004 21:12, PM wrote: On Tue, 2004-05-18 at 15:03, Michael Tienhaara wrote: Thanks for the reply. Now I'm curioushow? Does it defrag on the fly? Or, at set times? Michael It's a completely different file system to MS dos ( in its various forms), and doesn't fragment files (not so you'd notice, anyway) so there's no need to defrag. ...which is not entirely true, though. In filesystems like ext2, ext3, ReiserFS and XFS there is no need whatsoever to defrag, but in IBM's JFS is is recommended to do so now and then. Kaj haulrich. That's IBM for ya. Well Stephen, I must admit that IBM gets more and more of my respect these days, what with them supporting Linux, standing up against SCO and all that. That aside, their JFS (Journalling File System) is a legacy system inherited from OS/2 Warp. The defragging issue is a bargain pay for the incredible speed and stability og that filesystem. Kaj Haulrich. Kaj, you are dead on right. I just got thru testing JFS on some new systems for some customers of mine, and I was astounded at the responsiveness of the boxes after I got it installed. The reason is the super low CPU utilization of JFS; it does it's job on a par with XFS speedwise, but yet consumes far less CPU cycles. This gives a 2000mhz machine a very snappy feel. Snappier even than my 2k. The next time I format, which will be soon, I'm going to see how JFS performs on top of my RAID array. I love XFS, but JFS just has too much going for it. By way of confirmation, please witness these latest benchmarks in Linux Gazette which bear out what you are saying: http://linuxgazette.net/102/piszcz.html LX Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] defraging
On Saturday 22 May 2004 00:13, Lyvim Xaphir wrote: On Tue, 2004-05-18 at 16:35, Kaj Haulrich wrote: On Tuesday 18 May 2004 22:15, Stephen Kuhn wrote: On Wed, 2004-05-19 at 06:07, Kaj Haulrich wrote: On Tuesday 18 May 2004 21:12, PM wrote: On Tue, 2004-05-18 at 15:03, Michael Tienhaara wrote: Thanks for the reply. Now I'm curioushow? Does it defrag on the fly? Or, at set times? Michael It's a completely different file system to MS dos ( in its various forms), and doesn't fragment files (not so you'd notice, anyway) so there's no need to defrag. ...which is not entirely true, though. In filesystems like ext2, ext3, ReiserFS and XFS there is no need whatsoever to defrag, but in IBM's JFS is is recommended to do so now and then. Kaj haulrich. That's IBM for ya. Well Stephen, I must admit that IBM gets more and more of my respect these days, what with them supporting Linux, standing up against SCO and all that. That aside, their JFS (Journalling File System) is a legacy system inherited from OS/2 Warp. The defragging issue is a bargain pay for the incredible speed and stability og that filesystem. Kaj Haulrich. Kaj, you are dead on right. I just got thru testing JFS on some new systems for some customers of mine, and I was astounded at the responsiveness of the boxes after I got it installed. The reason is the super low CPU utilization of JFS; it does it's job on a par with XFS speedwise, but yet consumes far less CPU cycles. This gives a 2000mhz machine a very snappy feel. Snappier even than my 2k. The next time I format, which will be soon, I'm going to see how JFS performs on top of my RAID array. I love XFS, but JFS just has too much going for it. By way of confirmation, please witness these latest benchmarks in Linux Gazette which bear out what you are saying: http://linuxgazette.net/102/piszcz.html LX Interesting. And I think the defragging can be set up as a cron job. My experience with JFS stems from my OS/2 days, and I don't remember I ever had to defrag it. In OS/2 there was a nifty feature, a graphical representation of the filesystem. One could actually see how it worked, distributing files in a very clever manner. Fragmentation never amounted to more then 2 %. Next time I do a clean install, I'll try it on linux, although I have no complaints whatsoever with my ReiserFS. Kaj Haulrich. -- * Sent from a 100 % Microsoft-free computer * * running Linux kernel 2.6.4 on Mandrake 10.0 * Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] defraging
On Fri, 2004-05-21 at 18:32, Kaj Haulrich wrote: By way of confirmation, please witness these latest benchmarks in Linux Gazette which bear out what you are saying: http://linuxgazette.net/102/piszcz.html LX Interesting. And I think the defragging can be set up as a cron job. My experience with JFS stems from my OS/2 days, and I don't remember I ever had to defrag it. In OS/2 there was a nifty feature, a graphical representation of the filesystem. One could actually see how it worked, distributing files in a very clever manner. Fragmentation never amounted to more then 2 %. Next time I do a clean install, I'll try it on linux, although I have no complaints whatsoever with my ReiserFS. Kaj Haulrich. grin You might if you look at the benchmarks. Reiser consumes a horde of cpu cycles in order to deliver performance that is not really superior either to xfs or jfs *overall*. I tip the hat to Reiser design, it's quite sophisticated, however if the design is not living up to it's promise, then I'm unsure of it's true value. Look at image034.jpg (Split 10mb File) of the linux gazette article page. Reiser's advanced design should be letting it kick ass here...yet, it is just barely comparable to JFS's curve, which is phenonmenal. In image029.jpg (Megabytes Per Second On Copy From Current To Other Disk), Reiser has the poorest showing in the group, with JFS beating it out. Which brings me to the topic of image021.jpg -- Total CPU Utilization For Each Filesystem. This test was an aggregate accumulation of all cpu usage across all tests. JFS shows an unbelievable kick ass advantage over the other journaling filesystems, and then in addition shows an advantage over ext2, which isn't even a journaling filesystem, for pete's sake!!! That's an absolute first; it's never been done before. I do not know why it has not gotten more press. Logic would lead you to believe that such a feat as that would not be possible. Journaling filesystems have to do more stuff than nonjournaling filesystems. But yet, there it is; a journaling filesystem is outperforming a non journaling filesystem in CPU utilization benchmarks. Reiser, on the other hand, has the absolute worst showing of any of the other filesystems here in image021.jpg. Of the entire group, Reiser is the biggest CPU hog; while at the same time delivering no overall speed advantages to it's CPU usage. The *aggregate* tests reveal this. Given the other aggregate benchmarks (like image020.jpg, Total Time For Each Filesystem), the final qualifier, for me anyway, becomes the advantage of total system speed. JFS has the undisputed advantage here; it leaves the CPU available for things other than testing sophisticated filesystem theory. ;) LX Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] defraging
On Saturday 22 May 2004 01:09, Lyvim Xaphir wrote: snip Reiser, on the other hand, has the absolute worst showing of any of the other filesystems here in image021.jpg. Of the entire group, Reiser is the biggest CPU hog; while at the same time delivering no overall speed advantages to it's CPU usage. The *aggregate* tests reveal this. Given the other aggregate benchmarks (like image020.jpg, Total Time For Each Filesystem), the final qualifier, for me anyway, becomes the advantage of total system speed. JFS has the undisputed advantage here; it leaves the CPU available for things other than testing sophisticated filesystem theory. ;) LX /snip Lyvim, I absolutely agree. Nevertheless, my - very subjective - feeling is that ReiserFS outperforms ext3. Never tried XFS. It feels very snappy, especially on kernel 2.6. More important to me then speed however, is stability. I have 5 users here on my main box, not all of them very polite about shutting down the canonic way, closing applications and tidying up generally. Furthermore, we have numerous power outages out here by the ocean and everytime ReiserFS is up and running in a few seconds, regardless of what. So, until 10.1 I'll stick with ReiserFS. But then, I'll at least make a few partitions with JFS. Probably /boot and /home. And, speaking of filesystems : I guess JFS somehow is derived from OS/2 's HPFS (High Performance File System). With that file system fragmentation was very moderate too. Funny thing is, that when IBM and Microsoft divorced over OS/2 - around 1992 - the latter stole (as usual) the filesystem, modified it in a way that made it incompatible with the rest of the world and called it NTFS. And nowadays, when I'm called upon to fix my daughters WinXP - and that's about weekly - I notice heavy fragmentation, even after few hours of work. So much for MicroSCOft improving things. We penguinistas have the best of all worlds : freedom. Kaj Haulrich. -- * Sent from a 100 % Microsoft-free computer * * running Linux kernel 2.6.4 on Mandrake 10.0 * Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] defraging
Thanks to everyone for all the replies. Regards, Michael Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
[newbie] defraging
Hi, I'm a new Mandrake 10 user. What do most of you use to defrag your hard drives? Thanks, Michael Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] defraging
Michael Tienhaara wrote: Hi, I'm a new Mandrake 10 user. What do most of you use to defrag your hard drives? Thanks, Michael Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com Shouldn't be necessesary to defrag with linux. It does it by itself. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] defraging
Thanks for the reply. Now I'm curioushow? Does it defrag on the fly? Or, at set times? Michael I'm a new Mandrake 10 user. What do most of you use to defrag your hard drives? Thanks, Michael Shouldn't be necessesary to defrag with linux. It does it by itself. __ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] defraging
On Tuesday 18 May 2004 07:47 am, Michael Tienhaara wrote: I'm a new Mandrake 10 user. What do most of you use to defrag your hard drives? It really isn't necessary with Linux because of the way the linux filesystems are designed. When linux writes to a file, it is much more efficient about how it uses free space and keeps files contiguous on the fly. BTW, not to be a list Nazi, but since you are new to the list, I'll risk the chance that you will take offence and point you have committed a minor breach of list etiquette by replying to an existing thread and changing the subject. This is called hi-jacking the thread and is a problem because the message headers contain information about which message you are replying to, etc. The messages on this list are not just threaded by subject, but by a unique numerical identifier that threads the messages even if you change the subject. It can be quite annoying if you ask your mail client to display the messages in threads. Well that was way too long for such a simple topic, but I was just trying to be polite. Have fun. -- /g Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] defraging
Michael Tienhaara wrote: Thanks for the reply. Now I'm curioushow? Does it defrag on the fly? Or, at set times? Michael I'm a new Mandrake 10 user. What do most of you use to defrag your hard drives? Thanks, Michael Shouldn't be necessesary to defrag with linux. It does it by itself. __ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com Depends on the filesystem you are using. The journaling filesystems do it with each access. and the other linux filesystems usually do it during the bootup process. Linux uses the drive a lot more wisely than windows and usually doesn't get frageed up badly. It will usually do a fsck on the drive at boot. Hope this helps. There are others out there that can explain it better than I. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] defraging
On Tue, 2004-05-18 at 15:03, Michael Tienhaara wrote: Thanks for the reply. Now I'm curioushow? Does it defrag on the fly? Or, at set times? Michael It's a completely different file system to MS dos ( in its various forms), and doesn't fragment files (not so you'd notice, anyway) so there's no need to defrag. -- Paul M. _ In the beginning, man created god. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] defraging
On Tue, 2004-05-18 at 22:03, Michael Tienhaara wrote: Thanks for the reply. Now I'm curioushow? Does it defrag on the fly? Or, at set times? Michael 1.) Don't top post 2.) Read about the file systems 3.) Understand what you've just read. stephen kuhn - owner == illawarra computer services a kuhn media australia company http://kma.0catch.com -- * This message was composed on a 100% Microsoft free computer * We expressly refuse to utilise Microsoft DRM encoded documents -- Surely you can't be serious. I am serious, and stop calling me Shirley. -- Airplane Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] defraging
On Tue, 2004-05-18 at 21:47, Michael Tienhaara wrote: Hi, I'm a new Mandrake 10 user. What do most of you use to defrag your hard drives? Thanks, Michael Defragging is for Windows/DOS users. The file systems in UNIX/LINUX do not require defragging - but if you're bound and determined to defrag a UNIX/LINUX based file system, you CAN find a utility to do so, but in reality, you're barking up the wrong tree. stephen kuhn - owner == illawarra computer services a kuhn media australia company http://kma.0catch.com -- * This message was composed on a 100% Microsoft free computer * We expressly refuse to utilise Microsoft DRM encoded documents -- Many a family tree needs trimming. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] defraging
On Tuesday 18 May 2004 21:12, PM wrote: On Tue, 2004-05-18 at 15:03, Michael Tienhaara wrote: Thanks for the reply. Now I'm curioushow? Does it defrag on the fly? Or, at set times? Michael It's a completely different file system to MS dos ( in its various forms), and doesn't fragment files (not so you'd notice, anyway) so there's no need to defrag. ...which is not entirely true, though. In filesystems like ext2, ext3, ReiserFS and XFS there is no need whatsoever to defrag, but in IBM's JFS is is recommended to do so now and then. Kaj haulrich. -- * Sent from a 100 % Microsoft-free computer * * running Linux kernel 2.6.4 on Mandrake 10.0 * Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] defraging
On Wed, 2004-05-19 at 06:07, Kaj Haulrich wrote: On Tuesday 18 May 2004 21:12, PM wrote: On Tue, 2004-05-18 at 15:03, Michael Tienhaara wrote: Thanks for the reply. Now I'm curioushow? Does it defrag on the fly? Or, at set times? Michael It's a completely different file system to MS dos ( in its various forms), and doesn't fragment files (not so you'd notice, anyway) so there's no need to defrag. ...which is not entirely true, though. In filesystems like ext2, ext3, ReiserFS and XFS there is no need whatsoever to defrag, but in IBM's JFS is is recommended to do so now and then. Kaj haulrich. That's IBM for ya. stephen kuhn - owner == illawarra computer services a kuhn media australia company http://kma.0catch.com -- * This message was composed on a 100% Microsoft free computer * We expressly refuse to utilise Microsoft DRM encoded documents -- This screen intentionally left blank. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
Re: [newbie] defraging
On Tuesday 18 May 2004 22:15, Stephen Kuhn wrote: On Wed, 2004-05-19 at 06:07, Kaj Haulrich wrote: On Tuesday 18 May 2004 21:12, PM wrote: On Tue, 2004-05-18 at 15:03, Michael Tienhaara wrote: Thanks for the reply. Now I'm curioushow? Does it defrag on the fly? Or, at set times? Michael It's a completely different file system to MS dos ( in its various forms), and doesn't fragment files (not so you'd notice, anyway) so there's no need to defrag. ...which is not entirely true, though. In filesystems like ext2, ext3, ReiserFS and XFS there is no need whatsoever to defrag, but in IBM's JFS is is recommended to do so now and then. Kaj haulrich. That's IBM for ya. Well Stephen, I must admit that IBM gets more and more of my respect these days, what with them supporting Linux, standing up against SCO and all that. That aside, their JFS (Journalling File System) is a legacy system inherited from OS/2 Warp. The defragging issue is a bargain pay for the incredible speed and stability og that filesystem. Kaj Haulrich. -- * Sent from a 100 % Microsoft-free computer * * running Linux kernel 2.6.4 on Mandrake 10.0 * Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Join the Club : http://www.mandrakeclub.com
[newbie] defraging
I'm always discovering holes in my linux education, and the thread on fsck made me think of defragmenting hard drives. is there a linux eq? what are the issues with data optimization/disk defragging under linux? Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://.mandrakestore.com
RE: [newbie] defraging
sweet. I put all of my partitions on ReiserFS after last month's discussion on filesystems. I'm glad to hear that there is no worry for me. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] defraging
On Tue, 14 Aug 2001 23:48, Jason Guidry wrote: I'm always discovering holes in my linux education, and the thread on fsck made me think of defragmenting hard drives. is there a linux eq? what are the issues with data optimization/disk defragging under linux? None. Only poorly-designed filesystems become fragmented to the point of requiring an external defragmenter. The level of fragmentation in GNU/Linux filesystems is near nil (I don't think ReiserFS has any fragmentation at all). While I'm here, how susceptible to fragmentation is NTFS5 (the NTFS in Win2000)? Does it need to be defragged often? Also, can it journal like ReiserFS, Ext3 and JFS? -- Sridhar Dhanapalan. There are two major products that come from Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence. -- Jeremy S. Anderson Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] defraging
It was Tue, 14 Aug 2001 16:16:57 -0400 when civileme wrote: Of course, no one really knows what NTFS does but it seems to be another system subject to fragmentation whose performance can be significantly improved by defragmenting. NTFS is most certainly prone to fragmentation. I worked at a radio station for a while where an NT machine was up for a long time, processing loads of files. We loaded a defragger and that was busy for 32 hours before the 8Gb disk was cleaned up again. Paul -- Happiness walks on busy feet. -Kitte Turmell http://nlpagan.net - Registered Linux User 174403 Linux Mandrake 8.0 - Sylpheed 0.5.2 ** http://www.care2.com - when you care ** Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] defraging
On Tuesday 14 August 2001 09:48, Jason Guidry wrote: I'm always discovering holes in my linux education, and the thread on fsck made me think of defragmenting hard drives. is there a linux eq? what are the issues with data optimization/disk defragging under linux? http://www.mail-archive.com/expert@linux-mandrake.com/msg17753.html I wrote that a good little while ago but it still applies. There is actually a defragmenter available. It does not seem to significantly improve performance, because ext2 keeps fragmentation very low and Reiser keeps it nonexistent. JFS and ext3 and XFS are also rather insensitive to the fragmentation issue. You see, FAT was originally designed for 360K and 720K floppies. It stacks files one after another instead of keeping the disk rather evenly populated across its whole extent with contiguous data files, which makes fragmentation management much easier. Of course, no one really knows what NTFS does but it seems to be another system subject to fragmentation whose performance can be significantly improved by defragmenting. I have a little program called FSledge which tests filesystems. It produces 10 files from one to 3 k in size and then begins changing a random selection of 500 of them per second in the range of 2-8 k in size. After 8 hours of the Filesystem Sledgehammer, an ext3 partition was only 2.2% non-contiguous (and remember we use 1k blocks instead of FAT32's 4k clusters). Civileme Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] defraging
On Tuesday 14 August 2001 10:22, Sridhar Dhanapalan wrote: On Tue, 14 Aug 2001 23:48, Jason Guidry wrote: I'm always discovering holes in my linux education, and the thread on fsck made me think of defragmenting hard drives. is there a linux eq? what are the issues with data optimization/disk defragging under linux? None. Only poorly-designed filesystems become fragmented to the point of requiring an external defragmenter. The level of fragmentation in GNU/Linux filesystems is near nil (I don't think ReiserFS has any fragmentation at all). While I'm here, how susceptible to fragmentation is NTFS5 (the NTFS in Win2000)? Does it need to be defragged often? I've been using Win2000 for about eight months and it's no different defrag-wise. I bet if you looked at it close enough, NTFS is just FAT32 with some security measures thrown in-- Remember Microsoft *innovates*, it doesn't invent. Richie Also, can it journal like ReiserFS, Ext3 and JFS? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; name=message.footer Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Description: Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://.mandrakestore.com
