RE: [newbie] Redhat = traitors???
Read the excerpt, follow the link for the complete story: Red Hat's chief executive has said that Linux needs to mature further before home users will get a positive experience from the operating system, saying they should choose Windows instead... Matthew Szulik, chief executive of Linux vendor Red Hat, said on Monday that although Linux is capable of exceeding expectations for corporate users, home users should stick with Windows: 'I would say that for the consumer market place, Windows probably continues to be the right product line,' he said... http://linuxtoday.com/infrastructure/2003110401326NWDTRH You don't think that's true? - Grant Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
RE: [newbie] Redhat = traitors???
On Tue, 2003-11-04 at 11:53, Grant wrote: Read the excerpt, follow the link for the complete story: Red Hat's chief executive has said that Linux needs to mature further before home users will get a positive experience from the operating system, saying they should choose Windows instead... Matthew Szulik, chief executive of Linux vendor Red Hat, said on Monday that although Linux is capable of exceeding expectations for corporate users, home users should stick with Windows: 'I would say that for the consumer market place, Windows probably continues to be the right product line,' he said... http://linuxtoday.com/infrastructure/2003110401326NWDTRH You don't think that's true? For the Average luser he's right. We all know people who will use Win$ux no matter what. They do not want to configure anything Win$ux came on the computer they got at Circuit City and they never heard of Linux (poor benighted souls) - Grant __ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com -- When you're being mugged..a handgun is more comfort than an ACLU lawyer Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
RE: [newbie] Redhat = traitors???
Ronald J. Hall said: Read the excerpt, follow the link for the complete story: Red Hat's chief executive has said that Linux needs to mature further before home users will get a positive experience from the operating system, saying they should choose Windows instead... Matthew Szulik, chief executive of Linux vendor Red Hat, said on Monday that although Linux is capable of exceeding expectations for corporate users, home users should stick with Windows: 'I would say that for the consumer market place, Windows probably continues to be the right product line,' he said... http://linuxtoday.com/infrastructure/2003110401326NWDTRH -- I think that some statements made in the article are right on. Now, don't shoot me for saying that. In the time since I started hearing about Linux (summer, '95) until I really took the plunge and started working with it (about a month or so ago), I have heard and read frequently about how Linux was sooo much better than any MS alternative. This, I won't dispute. However, there are some Linux advocates that will, without fail, push Linux as an all-purpose solution in every situation. Not necessarily true. Corporate/enterprise users generally have an established IT and support structure in place. Computers are often standardized to a common specification or set of specifications, so it is easier to create, deploy and support a standard desktop image. Home users do not have this luxury. Many want the computer to simply work. Most don't want to have to work to get the system to do what they want it to do. The 80s mentality of a computer user that it's OK to have to know something about the system is now the minority among computer users. The Macintosh and Windows are largely responsible for this situation. I am, and most on this list are, part of that minority. My wife is an example of the majority. I let her work on a laptop that only had Mandrake on it, and she was not happy. It didn't look like Windows, it didn't behave like Windows (similar, but not exactly...and she didn't get to the stability and all that, didn't give it sufficient chance), and I didn't (and still don't) know quite enough to get things to do just what she wants (give me time, and she will see a Linux system set just as she wants it, behaving as she should expect). Add to this mentality the often discussed and disparaged tendency of hardware makers targeting home consumers with budget hardware designed to defer to Windows and you have a configuration and driver headache. If the average home user had the mentality that it's good to know a little bit about how to configure their computer (beyond adding a theme, setting a screen saver, or arranging icons), and if the home user would not settle for the consumer grade computers they can pick up at Costco, Sears, Circuit City, or from Gateway and Dell for cheap, then the reality of Linux as a viable option on every desktop will be a reality. No, the guy from Red Hat is not a traitor. He's just being honest with expectations. Of course, I think most of us here would take less exception if he'd had said many home users or had similarly qualified his statement about Windows still being a more appropriate option for some. Just my two cents. Mark Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Redhat = traitors???
On Tuesday 04 November 2003 01:53 pm, Grant wrote: Read the excerpt, follow the link for the complete story: Red Hat's chief executive has said that Linux needs to mature further before home users will get a positive experience from the operating system, saying they should choose Windows instead... Matthew Szulik, chief executive of Linux vendor Red Hat, said on Monday that although Linux is capable of exceeding expectations for corporate users, home users should stick with Windows: 'I would say that for the consumer market place, Windows probably continues to be the right product line,' he said... http://linuxtoday.com/infrastructure/2003110401326NWDTRH You don't think that's true? - Grant I do. Most all current home desktop users, windoze users should stay right where they are. Most aren't even aware of 'hardware' issues on anything but Winsux (ie, proprietary, or winhardware). How many times do we now see ...but it works with Windows. Some expect an OS that they can change to with no effort on their part. Creating an unaffordable support headache, misinformation, and discouragement for Linux distros that provide free/free 'as is' GPL/GNU software. I was fortunate. Long long time ago in another world, before the Internet was even a little prevalent, I had a home built computer and belonged to a LUG (http://www.hal-pc.org/). Most everybody used Houston area's 20,000 (not a typo) BBS's to connect (9,6 kb connections), ignoring the fledgling Internet. Even when Net connections became more wide spread, it was then only thru a shell account. Which needed UN*X familiarity and commands to navigate on the server connected to. The solution for many of us was to get a small 'linux on a floppy' distro, or install a 'linux on msdos' distro an play with it. Some went with BSD*. I did both (floppy, then on DOS), an I still think it's a good starting point for those who want or need to abandon M$. Migrate slowly in small steps. Get your feet wet an use to the water before you jump in. And even then, hand holding by peers is often needed. Winblows should be retained for a long time (dual boot). Like I say, I was lucky, havin the world's largest computer group behind and with me. Many don't, or aren't willing to join. -- Tom Brinkman Corpus Christi, Texas Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Redhat = traitors???
Aronsmith wrote: On Tue, 2003-11-04 at 11:53, Grant wrote: Read the excerpt, follow the link for the complete story: Red Hat's chief executive has said that Linux needs to mature further before home users will get a positive experience from the operating system, saying they should choose Windows instead... Matthew Szulik, chief executive of Linux vendor Red Hat, said on Monday that although Linux is capable of exceeding expectations for corporate users, home users should stick with Windows: 'I would say that for the consumer market place, Windows probably continues to be the right product line,' he said... http://linuxtoday.com/infrastructure/2003110401326NWDTRH You don't think that's true? For the Average luser he's right. We all know people who will use Win$ux no matter what. They do not want to configure anything Win$ux came on the computer they got at Circuit City and they never heard of Linux (poor benighted souls) And if their computers came with Linux, they'd use that, even if someone offered them a free copy of Windows XP Super-Mega Professional. Sir Robin -- I declare this sentence a performative! Robin Turner IDMYO Bilkent Univeritesi Ankara 06533 Turkey www.bilkent.edu.tr/~robin Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Redhat = traitors???
its no surprise comming form redhat... which is stopping next year to become redhat enterprise leaving the gpl to be experimental stuff to its new name of fedora On Tuesday 04 Nov 2003 H:00, robin wrote: Aronsmith wrote: On Tue, 2003-11-04 at 11:53, Grant wrote: Read the excerpt, follow the link for the complete story: Red Hat's chief executive has said that Linux needs to mature further before home users will get a positive experience from the operating system, saying they should choose Windows instead... Matthew Szulik, chief executive of Linux vendor Red Hat, said on Monday that although Linux is capable of exceeding expectations for corporate users, home users should stick with Windows: 'I would say that for the consumer market place, Windows probably continues to be the right product line,' he said... http://linuxtoday.com/infrastructure/2003110401326NWDTRH You don't think that's true? For the Average luser he's right. We all know people who will use Win$ux no matter what. They do not want to configure anything Win$ux came on the computer they got at Circuit City and they never heard of Linux (poor benighted souls) And if their computers came with Linux, they'd use that, even if someone offered them a free copy of Windows XP Super-Mega Professional. Sir Robin Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Redhat = traitors???
Mark Kirschner wrote: I think that some statements made in the article are right on. Now, don't shoot me for saying that. In the time since I started hearing about Linux (summer, '95) until I really took the plunge and started working with it (about a month or so ago), I have heard and read frequently about how Linux was sooo much better than any MS alternative. This, I won't dispute. However, there are some Linux advocates that will, without fail, push Linux as an all-purpose solution in every situation. Not necessarily true. Corporate/enterprise users generally have an established IT and support structure in place. Computers are often standardized to a common specification or set of specifications, so it is easier to create, deploy and support a standard desktop image. Home users do not have this luxury. Many want the computer to simply work. Most don't want to have to work to get the system to do what they want it to do. The 80s mentality of a computer user that it's OK to have to know something about the system is now the minority among computer users. The Macintosh and Windows are largely responsible for this situation. I am, and most on this list are, part of that minority. My wife is an example of the majority. I let her work on a laptop that only had Mandrake on it, and she was not happy. It didn't look like Windows, it didn't behave like Windows (similar, but not exactly...and she didn't get to the stability and all that, didn't give it sufficient chance), and I didn't (and still don't) know quite enough to get things to do just what she wants (give me time, and she will see a Linux system set just as she wants it, behaving as she should expect). Add to this mentality the often discussed and disparaged tendency of hardware makers targeting home consumers with budget hardware designed to defer to Windows and you have a configuration and driver headache. If the average home user had the mentality that it's good to know a little bit about how to configure their computer (beyond adding a theme, setting a screen saver, or arranging icons), and if the home user would not settle for the consumer grade computers they can pick up at Costco, Sears, Circuit City, or from Gateway and Dell for cheap, then the reality of Linux as a viable option on every desktop will be a reality. No, the guy from Red Hat is not a traitor. He's just being honest with expectations. Of course, I think most of us here would take less exception if he'd had said many home users or had similarly qualified his statement about Windows still being a more appropriate option for some. Just my two cents. hih :-) I've just had cofirmed something I had proudly said to my sister (linux fan, writes articles and stuff for a fresh Linux romanian magazine ... I might proudly add that she picked up Linux from my excitement), which is that there's a LOT of awesome people on this list .. and a really friendly group .. and furthermore very mature people. About the article: the many home users of Linux would argue with it .. but still .. this view is somewhat close to mine: right now Linux still isn't for your average joe .. but rather more for a) your more technical minded joe, excited geek, fond of new stuff person b) somebody who doesn't want to pay money c) companies that get support d) the user that has very limited expectation of his pc that can be easily satisfied with stuff that comes automatically in a distro and that will use his whole pc just for that .. and has somebody around who will do the first tour installation for him e) user d) with pre-installed Linux with all this said ... I think it's beyond doubt that Linux is a tough ass sonnof a bitch already .. and is getting more so by the day. It's already a strong beast ... it's just that it's not a particularly friendly one ... but once you've mastered it the satisfaction and benefits can be quite worth it. Also, I don't generally say the problems I have with Linux to a windows user, because I think they need to pushed a bit into actually trying the alternative and not discouraged, but at the same time I dissagree with the people that say Linux is soo awesome s easy, and so working. I encourage people to try Linux, help advice, copy cds ... and so on .. I just warn them together with the hype advertisement not to expect magic ... and that though there's a lot of stuff great about it .. if they don't have a strong will and wish to go on they might find themselves leaving it frustrated. This cuts down on the people coming back shouting how much Linux stinks and how it doesn't work and presenting me with hardware or sofware that didn't work and stuff. I don't need that nor do I feel like getting it. That's why I've got a somewhat more passive approach to promoting linux: me using it, saying the good stuff, the moments when I'm happy with it, spreading info, news copies of cds ... but also
Re: [newbie] Redhat = traitors???
On Tue, 4 Nov 2003 14:47:56 -0600 Tom Brinkman [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: I do. Most all current home desktop users, windoze users should stay right where they are. Most aren't even aware of 'hardware' issues on anything but Winsux (ie, proprietary, or winhardware). How many times do we now see ...but it works with Windows. Some expect an OS that they can change to with no effort on their part. Creating an unaffordable support headache, misinformation, and discouragement for Linux distros that provide free/free 'as is' GPL/GNU software. I don't. I'd rather not have many millions of zombie spam-spewing virus-spreading bandwidth-eating illegal-monopoly-supporting privacy invading POS OS's out there, when the alternative is just as easy to use, more stable, more secure, and doesn't violate people's privacy rights and render the internet almost unusable at times. A better day awaits us when Windows is forever banished into the garbage heap of history where it belongs. If Linux is too hard for someone to understand and use, which is difficult to believe, then there's always the Mac. -- HaywireMac ++ ICQ # 279518458 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org ++ Mandrake HowTo's More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org ++ The truth of a thing is the feel of it, not the think of it. -- Stanley Kubrick Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Redhat = traitors???
On Tue, 2003-11-04 at 14:49, Ronald J. Hall wrote: Read the excerpt, follow the link for the complete story: Red Hat's chief executive has said that Linux needs to mature further before home users will get a positive experience from the operating system, saying they should choose Windows instead... Matthew Szulik, chief executive of Linux vendor Red Hat, said on Monday that although Linux is capable of exceeding expectations for corporate users, home users should stick with Windows: 'I would say that for the consumer market place, Windows probably continues to be the right product line,' he said... http://linuxtoday.com/infrastructure/2003110401326NWDTRH I have been saying for a while now that red hat was the 'Microsoft of Linux, this just proves it..never really did like red hat... Walt Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Redhat = traitors???
On Tue, 2003-11-04 at 13:00, robin wrote: Aronsmith wrote: On Tue, 2003-11-04 at 11:53, Grant wrote: Read the excerpt, follow the link for the complete story: Red Hat's chief executive has said that Linux needs to mature further before home users will get a positive experience from the operating system, saying they should choose Windows instead... Matthew Szulik, chief executive of Linux vendor Red Hat, said on Monday that although Linux is capable of exceeding expectations for corporate users, home users should stick with Windows: 'I would say that for the consumer market place, Windows probably continues to be the right product line,' he said... http://linuxtoday.com/infrastructure/2003110401326NWDTRH You don't think that's true? For the Average luser he's right. We all know people who will use Win$ux no matter what. They do not want to configure anything Win$ux came on the computer they got at Circuit City and they never heard of Linux (poor benighted souls) And if their computers came with Linux, they'd use that, even if someone offered them a free copy of Windows XP Super-Mega Professional. True Sir Robin -- When you're being mugged..a handgun is more comfort than an ACLU lawyer Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Redhat = traitors???
On Tue, 2003-11-04 at 14:10, HaywireMac wrote: On Tue, 4 Nov 2003 14:47:56 -0600 Tom Brinkman [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: I do. Most all current home desktop users, windoze users should stay right where they are. Most aren't even aware of 'hardware' issues on anything but Winsux (ie, proprietary, or winhardware). How many times do we now see ...but it works with Windows. Some expect an OS that they can change to with no effort on their part. Creating an unaffordable support headache, misinformation, and discouragement for Linux distros that provide free/free 'as is' GPL/GNU software. I don't. I'd rather not have many millions of zombie spam-spewing virus-spreading bandwidth-eating illegal-monopoly-supporting privacy invading POS OS's out there, when the alternative is just as easy to use, more stable, more secure, and doesn't violate people's privacy rights and render the internet almost unusable at times. A better day awaits us when Windows is forever banished into the garbage heap of history where it belongs. If Linux is too hard for someone to understand and use, which is difficult to believe, then there's always the Mac. It's not that its harder, it's that most people don't care. they want to surf and do email and play games kinda like getting them to read Plato ...they see no need -- When you're being mugged..a handgun is more comfort than an ACLU lawyer Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Redhat = traitors???
Ronald J. Hall wrote: Read the excerpt, follow the link for the complete story: Spot on! My 2 cents worth- the greatest impediments to broad acceptance of Linux are *)a lack of readable instruction material, *)problematic configuration issues, especially in relation to networking and graphic cards, *)poor customer service from the paid for support distributors (notably Mandrake in my experience), *) and a (generally) in-hospitable user group network that will not tolerate our cannot communicate with those just beginning to put their toes into the Linux waters (present company excepted, of course :-) ) But there's hope: Longtime Microsoft foe Novell signs an agreement to acquire SuSE Linux for $210 million in cash, while IBM will make a $50 million investment in Novell. Tue Nov 04 08:14:00 PST 2003 http://ct.com.com/click?q=f6-QkfIQMwckz6~PAtX69bwFsTpfx~v I think the influence of these two giants will bring positive change, especially to the Linux Desktop, although I'd expect the cost of distros to rise significantly. On the last point, I don't mind paying. I have always bought the MDK Powerpaks since version 8.x - what I hate is that I pay for upadtes that generally ruin my previous install (I coulda done that for free) and then the paid for support doesn't respond to my incidents. Sorry, I'm off again... Byeee. -- Pierre Final Filer Software http://www.finalfiler.com Worrigee, NSW, Australia 2540 -- Life's like a roll of toilet paper- The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Redhat = traitors???
Aronsmith wrote: On Tue, 2003-11-04 at 14:10, HaywireMac wrote: On Tue, 4 Nov 2003 14:47:56 -0600 Tom Brinkman [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: I do. Most all current home desktop users, windoze users should stay right where they are. Most aren't even aware of 'hardware' issues on anything but Winsux (ie, proprietary, or winhardware). How many times do we now see ...but it works with Windows. Some expect an OS that they can change to with no effort on their part. Creating an unaffordable support headache, misinformation, and discouragement for Linux distros that provide free/free 'as is' GPL/GNU software. I don't. I'd rather not have many millions of zombie spam-spewing virus-spreading bandwidth-eating illegal-monopoly-supporting privacy invading POS OS's out there, when the alternative is just as easy to use, more stable, more secure, and doesn't violate people's privacy rights and render the internet almost unusable at times. A better day awaits us when Windows is forever banished into the garbage heap of history where it belongs. If Linux is too hard for someone to understand and use, which is difficult to believe, then there's always the Mac. It's not that its harder, it's that most people don't care. they want to surf and do email and play games kinda like getting them to read Plato ...they see no need If that is all they really want to do, then perhaps some sort of hardwired - hardcoded appliance is what we should give them ... something with just enough LINUX in an eprom to make something like an old 3270 terminal. Just a screen, keyboard, connection to a mainframe. No drives. No storage. No Memory. Harv Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
