Re: [newbie] How to best support Mandrake - real world style
On Tue, 2002-03-19 at 10:12, sda wrote: Well, I don't know what you call a troll where you come from, I've been here for a couple of years [anyway], and I have offered support on these lists from time to time and no, I'm not a troll, thank-you very much. BTW you didn't address my statement re Caldera but only critiqued my tone, seems to me you're more of the troll... Perhaps I didn't address the rest because I agree with it somewhat? Put your thinking cap on man and read on. -- -^- -^- ? ?Steve ^ ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ' ` I unclog my nose in your general direc-tion! Plus your sig still looks stupid. Feeding the trolls again, LX _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] How to best support Mandrake - real world style
On Tue, 2002-03-19 at 13:26, Damian wrote: i knew sooner or later it would come down to this come on, now. you can to better that that. if you just don't agree you could stop the discussion period. neither of you are the ones that decide this matter for Mandrakesoft so why should you start calling each other names over it. I agree totally. The entire exchange was repulsive, not to mention horrible and slightly amusing. I move that the participants be strung up and tortured with naked women in wet t-shirts. (oops. scratch the t-shirt thing). ; Mandrakesoft has people inside that do this kind of thinking and it's their bet which counts. ( and i'm pretty damn positive anything we can say in here will affect their choices. ) Ahrrrmmm...yes of course you are right. maybe we all can come up with some brilliant way to make this distro the most widely used, made by the richest enterprise and with the most employees. but if it's going to end up this way, we better keep it to ourselves. Well said. i've migrated successfully to linux because of this list, let's just help mandrake in whatever way we can, and hope for the best. in the meantime, let's keep this list as cool as it always has been. Damian. Hear hear ! Tongue in cheek, LX _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] How to best support Mandrake - real world style
On Tue, 2002-03-19 at 16:26, shane wrote: On Tuesday 19 March 2002 11:11, Lyvim Xaphir opened a hailing frequency and transmitted: I agree totally. The entire exchange was repulsive, not to mention horrible and slightly amusing. I move that the participants be strung up and tortured with naked women in wet t-shirts. (oops. scratch the t-shirt thing). ; scratch it? your kidding? i should stop waiting for the tee shirt girls to ring the bell then? i hope your happy. you have ruined my entire day Waitaminute, shane. What exactly do you have when you have a naked woman with no wet t-shirt? (looking innocently and nonchalantly at ceiling while slowly drumming fingers on desk.) grin -- god is omnipotent, omnicient, and omnibenevolent-says so right on the label. and if you believe that i have some land for sale, but cash only, and in small bills -long shane Profile at: http://dmoz.org/profiles/shen.html Proud to be a DMOZ editor since 10-98 Mandrake Users Club Member http://www.linux-mandrake.com/en/club/ Registered linux user #101606 http://counter.li.org/ HTH, LX. ;) _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] How to best support Mandrake - real world style
support Mandrake - real world style On Mon, 18 Mar 2002 11:59:34 +1000 john rigby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip The very idea of charity is a repugnant thing when viewed intelligently. Support aid is something else entirely. But buying value!! Could you explain this a little more? snip But, if Mandrake called in PayPals services and said: $10 for the lot by download in bits. NO FREEBIES, it would work. I would never have downloaded and tried Mandrake if I had had to pay. I was not willing to pay anything to test it out. Now that it is my only OS at home, I will spring for a box set to get some documentation on paper (hopefully), and to support Mandrake in general. But that's just me. I'm sure your $10/copy scheme will rescue the company from all troubles. Why hasn't anybody ever thought of it before!!! Absolute genius! (If it didn't the worst that would happen is only what *is* going to happen.. another nice company bites the dust, sooner or later.) Shops could still sell the Full Boxes. Nobody should be able to get the full commercial Server system without being FINANCIALLY competent enough to spring say, even $100. Seen M$ Prices for a Server Ah, well, if John Rigby says a server system should cost at least $100, and that a person who cannot pay that sum has absolutely no right to possess a server, well, yes of course, by all means. This world scares you, doesn't it John? Wait--I feel like breaking into song-- Come mothers and fathers Throughout the land And don't criticize What you can't understand Your sons and your daughters Are beyond your command Your old road is Rapidly agin'. Please get out of the new one If you can't lend your hand For the times they are a-changin'. (I hope the young whipper-snappers out there still listen to Bobby D) snip Yadda yadda, sigh, humpf. -- Todd Slater We are students of words; we are shut up in schools, and colleges, and recitation rooms, for ten or fifteen years, and come out at last with a bag of wind, a memory of words, and do not know a thing. (Ralph Waldo Emerson) --- - Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com -- Give me the views, and I'll give you the arguments. - Chrysippus Robin Turner IDMYO, Bilkent Universitesi Ankara 06533 Turkey http://www.bilkent.edu.tr/~robin Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] How to best support Mandrake - real world style
EXACTLY ME MIND ! Thanks a lot Sridhar Karine On Monday 18 March 2002 10:19, Sridhar Dhanapalan wrote: You seem to be applying closed-source pricing policies to something that is free (as in speech). Why would one pay $100 for a Mandrake server when the source is free? Someone can compile this source code and bingo: free (as in speech and in beer) Mandrake, which can be legally distributed to millions of people. Otherwise, they could just download Debian or Red Hat. Sure, Mandrake could make proprietary aplications like Suse does (and note that Suse is in financial difficulty while Red Hat isn't), but that would destroy Mandrakesoft's reputation in the GNU/Linux community. Mandrakesoft is a free software company through to the core. In this way it is almost like Debian, and it is the principal reason why myself and many others like the company. Estranging the developer community would just create a slow-developing and unpopular distro like Caldera OpenLinux (which used to be amongst the most popular). I like Mandrake. I respect Mandrakesoft. But if they move to a restrictive pricing policy like that of Suse or Caldera, I will switch to a free (as in speech) distro like Debian or Gentoo. -- Karine ZUERCHER [EMAIL PROTECTED] Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] How to best support Mandrake - real world style
On Mon, 2002-03-18 at 10:56, sda wrote: On Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 08:19:15PM +1100, Sridhar Dhanapalan wrote: You seem to be applying closed-source pricing policies to something that is free (as in speech). Why would one pay $100 for a Mandrake server when the source is free? Someone can compile this source code and bingo: free (as in speech and in beer) Mandrake, which can be legally distributed to millions of people. Otherwise, they could just download Debian or Red Hat. Sure, Mandrake could make proprietary aplications like Suse does (and note that Suse is in financial difficulty while Red Hat isn't), but that would destroy Mandrakesoft's reputation in the GNU/Linux community. Mandrakesoft is a free software company through to the core. In this way it is almost like Debian, and it is the principal reason why myself and many others like the company. Estranging the developer community would just create a slow-developing and unpopular distro like Caldera OpenLinux (which used to be amongst the most popular). Caldera is unpopular by whom? Maybe people like you, but the business community that *pays* for software and support seem, to like it very much. At least Caldera has a viable business model while Mandrake - well let's just say Mandrake is struggling. I find it extemely interesting that you home in on one particular part of Sridhar's statement above, (Caldera's popularity) but fail to address the rest of what he's said, which is totally valid. For that matter, you've skipped alot; which to me smacks of troll. _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] How to best support Mandrake - real world style
I have ADD, please keep your posts to 2 paragraphs or less. Sheesh. Anyway, just being a dork. Thought I'd say I can't be bothered to read all that. And I'm sure there are others here who agree. Femme john rigby wrote: Hi Todd folks, Explaining value: How much money do you think charities would receive if the big numbers weren't tax deductible? Many years ago a friend of mine who thought he knew marketing ( was a famous expert) went into professional fund-raising. Lasted 3 months. Yet, it is the little people that DO make real charities work. They just don't have the money... BUT if you give them an option to buy something that is actually useful as well, they do, they do. Some genius in Oz many years ago came up with the idea of the Lion's Club Xmas Cake. Even I used to buy a couple .. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] How to best support Mandrake - real world style
Hi Sridhar and folks again, You are actually selling my case, again, my friend. Everybody and his dog have already tried to make this unworkable thing go and there has been a 100% failure. Look around. Now look at Microsoft. A company flogging a set of products that even the front-end user has become enraged with and they are about to REALLY sock it to us.. ME and my millions of non-geek compatriots. What are our real world choices? 1. Stay and be . you-know-what-ed 2. Go to the Fruit? ... An absurd but very successful Religion built on the most atrocious lies. BUT great Advertising/PR. ( Great margins for the resellers, too who sorta illegally, in my opinion for most countries, agree not show them against anything else!) Amazing over-pricing. They could if they wanted, quadruple their marketshare, but who wants to?? It would mean cutting margins - poo to that! 3. The *X world. Now, the big corporate users are well catered for - even Bill's Billions haven't help him make a dent there. He just hasn't got the product and knows it, but he knows that the IT world is dumbing down, too. So that leaves the small business person and the domestic user. There is not a single, sensible product out there oriented toward the needs of the 90 million and the 300 million in the wings. I know because I and many, many people I know are still there, still trying. AND that is not even the highly experienced group I'm talking about - people like me who can not even understand the Manual. (Even though it has little to do with the actual product or components of the moment) Until somebody who understands PL Statements and can write them a Business Plan does so, the future of Mandrake is decidedly grim. I will take bets on it -sadly. I want it to work, but 30 years of international business experience- many as a last chance consultant - tells me that this future is clear. Simple arithmetic. Folks, skip the rhetoric, the Religious fervour, give me some hope based on some sensible numbers. What we need are some Cost Accountants here... :-) Cheers, Him Again Still with time on his hands - the last attempt at installing M8.0 fell over yesterday on my techo friends machine, too. - Original Message - From: Sridhar Dhanapalan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 7:19 PM Subject: Re: [newbie] How to best support Mandrake - real world style You seem to be applying closed-source pricing policies to something that is free (as in speech). Why would one pay $100 for a Mandrake server when the source is free? Someone can compile this source code and bingo: free (as in speech and in beer) Mandrake, which can be legally distributed to millions of people. Otherwise, they could just download Debian or Red Hat. Sure, Mandrake could make proprietary aplications like Suse does (and note that Suse is in financial difficulty while Red Hat isn't), but that would destroy Mandrakesoft's reputation in the GNU/Linux community. Mandrakesoft is a free software company through to the core. In this way it is almost like Debian, and it is the principal reason why myself and many others like the company. Estranging the developer community would just create a slow-developing and unpopular distro like Caldera OpenLinux (which used to be amongst the most popular). I like Mandrake. I respect Mandrakesoft. But if they move to a restrictive pricing policy like that of Suse or Caldera, I will switch to a free (as in speech) distro like Debian or Gentoo. On Mon, 18 Mar 2002 15:46:14 +1000, john rigby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Todd folks, Explaining value: How much money do you think charities would receive if the big numbers weren't tax deductible? Many years ago a friend of mine who thought he knew marketing ( was a famous expert) went into professional fund-raising. Lasted 3 months. Yet, it is the little people that DO make real charities work. They just don't have the money... BUT if you give them an option to buy something that is actually useful as well, they do, they do. Some genius in Oz many years ago came up with the idea of the Lion's Club Xmas Cake. Even I used to buy a couple .. I don't even believe in Free Trials. I believe in guarantees. Moneyback ones. Who could run a business today without them? In most civilised countries they are mandatory. If *anyone* could download a *demo* of Mandrake, that too is different. THAT would be very smart. AND small. It would have to demo a full replacement for THAT other one's suite - that's all. That's all means just that. Not one in a million - literally- of the potential users out there would even ever know what a Server was. Would ever use the utils. For true Geeks, the legion of Masochists who like developing\getting broken by these things, by all means they should be able to play with kernels etc
Re: [newbie] How to best support Mandrake - real world style
On Mon, 18 Mar 2002 17:41:03 -0700 FemmeFatale [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have ADD, please keep your posts to 2 paragraphs or less. Sheesh. Anyway, just being a dork. Thought I'd say I can't be bothered to read all that. And I'm sure there are others here who agree. Femme I agree! I'm thinking we need a mandrake-business-strategies or mandrake-business-plan discussion list, which I would be the first not to join ;-) -- Todd Slater Everywhere I go I'm asked if I think the university stifles writers. My opinion is that they don't stifle enough of them. There's many a bestseller that could have been prevented by a good teacher. (Flannery O'Connor) Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] How to best support Mandrake - real world style
On Sunday 17 March 2002 19:53, Todd Slater opened a hailing frequency and transmitted: But, if Mandrake called in PayPals services and said: $10 for the lot by download in bits. NO FREEBIES, it would work. I would never have downloaded and tried Mandrake if I had had to pay. I was not willing to pay anything to test it out. Now that it is my only OS at home, yea verily sing praises and pass the plate brother! i like suse almost as much as mandrake, but i loaded it once, and will never do so again. damn difficult ftp installer rather than ISO's! and it is still free, just harder to get to. that cost them a customer. i do not buy cars without test drives, do not buy CD's until i have heard at least half the songs on them, and will not buy an OS i can't try first. BUT, i happily buy cars i like after i try them, buy all the CD's from artists whos MP3's i file swaped and like enough to keep on my drive, and give lots of money to my favorite OS. i think those who can not understand the mentality of the linux community, and expect them to pay for nothing, will not last long. those who do understand will get paid if they build a good product. call me polyanna. (I hope the young whipper-snappers out there still listen to Bobby D) does 30 something make me a whipper snapper or an old goat? i can never recall... but i listen from time to time. -- When you say 'I wrote a program that crashed Windows', people just stare at you blankly and say 'Hey, I got those with the system, *for free*'. - Linus Torvalds shane Profile at: http://dmoz.org/profiles/shen.html Proud to be a DMOZ editor since 10-98 Mandrake Users Club Member http://www.linux-mandrake.com/en/club/ Registered linux user #101606 http://counter.li.org/ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] How to best support Mandrake - real world style
- Original Message - From: Brian Parish [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: newbie [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 9:53 AM Subject: [newbie] How to best support Mandrake I have read lots of threads about the club memberships etc on this list and find it very understandable that there are some diverse opinions on this. Given that, isn't the best way to support the distro we like to BUY it DIRECT from Mandrake. 8.2 pre-orders are now available. I suggest that if you want to support Mandrake and get CLEAR value for your money, order the 8.2 powerpack or server edition now direct from http://www.mandrakestore.com My guess would be that if you buy it from your computer shop, Mandrake may see only a small percentage of this. * VERY small. - Actually, this seemingly innocuous suggestion from Brian is the very heart of the Free issue. Of course that is the sensible thing to do! HOWEVER Human Beans are strange.. The concept of free in technology development is mightily confused. It is one thing to have the idea of GNU - or the knowledge SHARING concept, but free as in no charge is something else again and unfortunately, is how most people see this area to be. The very idea of charity is a repugnant thing when viewed intelligently. Support aid is something else entirely. But buying value!! All Linux needs, much less Mandrake, which already has enormous goodwill out there, is good word of mouth from the freebie-using (demanding??) geeks and their help/support to the worldwide community of non-geeks who in their tens of millions would gladly change to get away from the BSOD of Windoze. A simple change to payment for *amazing* value received, would get the revenue moving. Even the most avid do-it-myself-for-free geek could see the logic in paying the wages and system maintenance of the organisers/co-ordinators of this grand scheme - once it was presented properly. AND even the most impoverished of them could and - more importantly - most WOULD spring for a lousy ten bucks for their distro download. But not if it is free, too. THAT goes against the commonsense and the natural mindset. Estimated 2 MILLION downloads so far. Real users? Maybe 50,000. But, if Mandrake called in PayPals services and said: $10 for the lot by download in bits. NO FREEBIES, it would work. (If it didn't the worst that would happen is only what *is* going to happen.. another nice company bites the dust, sooner or later.) Shops could still sell the Full Boxes. Nobody should be able to get the full commercial Server system without being FINANCIALLY competent enough to spring say, even $100. Seen M$ Prices for a Server Mandrake should have a giant list of available installers - anyone wanting to help defeat the Dark Forces - and a basic price for a domestic help (over the phone) $25 in-house setup, $50 small business network. Say, $100 up. ANYONE successfully installing a working graphics interfaced Mandrake should be able to apply for a Certificate and then go help their friends get the same GREAT thing they have just seen *working*, writing a letter, playing a game, sending email, chatting and scanning photos.. I have a dream... One day to send out emails to ALL my connections saying: Guess what I've got? No more expensive annoying Microsoft! No more spying on me looking for expensive-so-pirated software! A $5,000 Microsoft system for $250 - fully installed! EVERYTHING! It's called MANDRAKE LINUX and it is magic and it is Mr Gates's worst nightmare come true, at last. It is now user friendly! AND YOU NO LONGER HAVE TO FEAR VIRUSES TRASHING YOUR SYSTEM AND EMAILING YOUR MOM! It just doesn't happen with Linux! Go here and see the story! http:... Oh happy days at last! Cheers! John (sigh) Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] How to best support Mandrake - real world style
On Mon, 18 Mar 2002 11:59:34 +1000 john rigby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip The very idea of charity is a repugnant thing when viewed intelligently. Support aid is something else entirely. But buying value!! Could you explain this a little more? snip But, if Mandrake called in PayPals services and said: $10 for the lot by download in bits. NO FREEBIES, it would work. I would never have downloaded and tried Mandrake if I had had to pay. I was not willing to pay anything to test it out. Now that it is my only OS at home, I will spring for a box set to get some documentation on paper (hopefully), and to support Mandrake in general. But that's just me. I'm sure your $10/copy scheme will rescue the company from all troubles. Why hasn't anybody ever thought of it before!!! Absolute genius! (If it didn't the worst that would happen is only what *is* going to happen.. another nice company bites the dust, sooner or later.) Shops could still sell the Full Boxes. Nobody should be able to get the full commercial Server system without being FINANCIALLY competent enough to spring say, even $100. Seen M$ Prices for a Server Ah, well, if John Rigby says a server system should cost at least $100, and that a person who cannot pay that sum has absolutely no right to possess a server, well, yes of course, by all means. This world scares you, doesn't it John? Wait--I feel like breaking into song-- Come mothers and fathers Throughout the land And don't criticize What you can't understand Your sons and your daughters Are beyond your command Your old road is Rapidly agin'. Please get out of the new one If you can't lend your hand For the times they are a-changin'. (I hope the young whipper-snappers out there still listen to Bobby D) snip Yadda yadda, sigh, humpf. -- Todd Slater We are students of words; we are shut up in schools, and colleges, and recitation rooms, for ten or fifteen years, and come out at last with a bag of wind, a memory of words, and do not know a thing. (Ralph Waldo Emerson) Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] How to best support Mandrake - real world style
Hi Todd folks, Explaining value: How much money do you think charities would receive if the big numbers weren't tax deductible? Many years ago a friend of mine who thought he knew marketing ( was a famous expert) went into professional fund-raising. Lasted 3 months. Yet, it is the little people that DO make real charities work. They just don't have the money... BUT if you give them an option to buy something that is actually useful as well, they do, they do. Some genius in Oz many years ago came up with the idea of the Lion's Club Xmas Cake. Even I used to buy a couple .. I don't even believe in Free Trials. I believe in guarantees. Moneyback ones. Who could run a business today without them? In most civilised countries they are mandatory. If *anyone* could download a *demo* of Mandrake, that too is different. THAT would be very smart. AND small. It would have to demo a full replacement for THAT other one's suite - that's all. That's all means just that. Not one in a million - literally- of the potential users out there would even ever know what a Server was. Would ever use the utils. For true Geeks, the legion of Masochists who like developing\getting broken by these things, by all means they should be able to play with kernels etc. to their hearts content. They are vital - but they have little to do with successful, competent *marketing* strategy. At most in the whole world we are talking about 10,000 people. All could be absorbed into a Friends Of Mandrake Developer's Club (free - entry requirement being a proved fully working install) and given lots of help via the millions coming in from a sensible consumer distro... But, what on earth *IS* someone who can't afford a lousy $100 doing playing with Server Systems and expecting support??? ( Pardon my ignorance, but what type of person are we talking about here, then?) REAL Server Systems DO cost thousands - I know I've bought and paid for them over the years. I STILL don't ever expect them to be free! What I hope for is just the dream of freedom of choice. To finalise my point: The 18 richest people in the history of this planet - 6 of whom each have more financial power than existed in the entire world a century ago, run businesses based on maximising of market opportunity - which translated means: charging what the market is prepared to pay. Not even what will make a simple profit - but maximising what the market will pay. None of them and no successful person in the history of the world ever made any money by giving their product or service away! Samples, yes, Demos, yes, the whole cake? I repeat, can someobody show me what the sales pitch is here? There is a market like me who will pay for experimental products in the hope of getting an edge, or even holding on (to his sanity) but, we are miniscule. How many total paid-for retail packs has Mandrake sold? Not even enough to run a single, tiny Corporate Jet. But, 20 million at just $10 each = $200 million - with no distribution costs. It's a start. Especially as almost nobody came to the pay-for Club Party. Who would? Most of the people out there won't even pay for a disc pak that you can buy for a few bucks. They are already conditioned to free. They will build a machine at home to save $20-50 assembly fee. Get no guarantee. Some do it because they like the pain. They are not the market. They are not the market They are not the market The market is the 90 million annoyed, frustrated Windows Users who will soon be told to join a subscriber thing or else. The market even bigger and better is the 300 million people out there who would buy a computer if it wasn't all so confusing and threatening and full of 20 y.o. kids showing off in electronic stores using all the latest splat words. Instead of a nice older person who smiles and arranges their home installation for them and a training session on the Net to hook them into a User Support Group Mandrake could own it. Cheap low-level hardware. Cheap Operating System Cheap Software Built-in giant underground support network. Jobs as installers for hundreds of junior geeks Jobs as tutors for hundreds of older Users. It would all be so easy. Cheers, Him Again - Original Message - From: Todd Slater [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 1:53 PM Subject: Re: [newbie] How to best support Mandrake - real world style On Mon, 18 Mar 2002 11:59:34 +1000 john rigby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip The very idea of charity is a repugnant thing when viewed intelligently. Support aid is something else entirely. But buying value!! Could you explain this a little more? snip But, if Mandrake called in PayPals services and said: $10 for the lot by download in bits. NO FREEBIES, it would work. I would never have downloaded and tried Mandrake if I had had to pay. I was not willing
Re: [newbie] How to best support Mandrake - real world style
On Mon, 18 Mar 2002 15:46:14 +1000 john rigby john rigby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But, 20 million at just $10 each = $200 million - with no distribution costs. 20 million x 680, 1360, or 2040Mb ( 1, 2, or 3 disks ) = a whole lot of money in bandwidth. -- °°° Mandrake Linux 8.1 Kernel 2.4.8-26mdk KDE 2.2.1 Sylpheed 0.7.2 David L. Steiner Registered Linux User #262493 Homepagewww.davidlsteiner.com Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] °°° Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
