Re: [newbie] religion in linux OT TID
On Wed, 29 Aug 2001 15:29:36 +0200 Robert MacLean [EMAIL PROTECTED] was inspired to comment: whats Apples Aqua? Is it Mac OS X? It's the user interface for OSX. Mike -- You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline - it helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weapons, but at the very least you need a beer. - Frank Zappa _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] religion in linux OT TID
Aqua is the name Apple have given to their GUI interface design (because it looks like liquid). M$ have made an inferior copy for WinXP and have called it Luna. No surprises there. On Wed, 29 Aug 2001 23:29, Robert MacLean wrote: whats Apples Aqua? Is it Mac OS X? - Original Message - From: Sridhar Dhanapalan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Robert MacLean [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 10:50 AM Subject: Re: [newbie] religion in linux OT TID On Mon, 27 Aug 2001 16:40, Robert MacLean wrote: heres my personal stand on M$. If you think of every one of M$ products with the exception of the OS's, and imagine all the products ran on a decent OS's (eg Linux : :) : then think how good M$ really is. There downfall is that they have a 2 bit OS and they charge too much for there products. M$ comes out with some of the best ideas in GUI's and ways of doing things. The Windos interface pre-Win95 was a cross between that of the Mac and one developed at the Xerox PARC Institute. WinXP's Luna interface is a poor rip-off of Apple's Aqua. People attribute far too much to Microsoft, often since they haven't used the environments that originated these designs. -- Sridhar Dhanapalan. There are two major products that come from Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence. -- Jeremy S. Anderson -- -- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://.mandrakestore.com -- Sridhar Dhanapalan. There are two major products that come from Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence. -- Jeremy S. Anderson Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] religion in linux OT TID
From: Matt Greer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 08:45:18 -0500 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [newbie] religion in linux OT TID This article is pre OS X. I've also never used OS X. I do know from reading about OS X, Apple took a few steps backwards in interface design. In fact earlier in OS X's development Apple was taking so many steps backwards that it caused me to get a PC instead of another Mac. They since fixed a lot of the things they were going to do poorly (but not all of them). Matt Matt, An unreleased OS caused you to switch platforms? Why? I'm not bashing here or anything, but this just strikes me as incredibly strange. I think that if you based all your decisions like that then I'm surprised your using computers at all :) Heh, I just had to erase a whole paragraph here, re-reading it I realised that my now 25 hours of no sleep began to make this message into almost an attack which it defiantly is not. I am using OSX on a few machines here at home and my one at work, I'm also using win 2k on a home built PC, and mandrake linux 8 on an ipaq. All of them have flaws, infact I have reinstalled linux s many times it's not funny (all after clean installs, for the longest time I could not get any networking happening at all, then tried lynx, and suddenly _everything_ was working...reeely strange...but I digress). The only reason I mention all of this is for people to say WOW what a guy... er no, actually it's just me trying to understand that comment :) I think it's just because I hate to see anyone leave the mac platform for whatever reason (my platform of choice over _any_ of the others), but I was not wanting to look like just a typical mac user who has had no experience outside of the comfy mac os. And just to say it, I LOVE OSX ... I'm running xfree86 on it in rootless mode right along side the Aqua stuff, it's great. It has also given me much less problems that linux has. :) OSX is also what got me into the command line, something which I had never touched before, which led to me playing with linux to see what all the fuss was about, and then to here, ahh, heartwarming isn't it :) Now if I could just stop bashing my head against linux trying to get Globecom.net/jukebox installed, This OS would rock. before anyone takes offence at this, remember : SLEEP DEPRIVED :) (tho I'm sure there are a few on this list that will take that 25hours with a beginner! :) rand Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] religion in linux OT TID
heres my personal stand on M$. If you think of every one of M$ products with the exception of the OS's, and imagine all the products ran on a decent OS's (eg Linux :) then think how good M$ really is. There downfall is that they have a 2 bit OS and they charge too much for there products. M$ comes out with some of the best ideas in GUI's and ways of doing things. Robert MacLean - Original Message - From: Michael Scottaline [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 7:16 PM Subject: Re: [newbie] religion in linux OT TID On Fri, 24 Aug 2001 15:14:43 +0100 Adams, Jamie [EMAIL PROTECTED] insightfully noted: AJ Okay, flame me too.. i liked IE for windows, but i dont miss it that AJ much, im getting used to the Opera way of doing things.. AJ Jamie Adams == What i find most similar to IE (at least a feature that I particularly liked) about Opera 5.x is the ability to get rid of the *entire* interface (at least the visible portion) and have nothing but page showing. I have a 19 monitor, but still like to fill it withe the page..., no vestige of browser visible, not even the title bar!! Right mouse click gives one all the features you are likely to need for day to day browsing. Others are available via simple keyboard commands. About the only M$ windows app I truly _miss_ is PowerPoint. Yeah I've tried SO and Applix presentation programs. They're OK, but they're NOT PowerPoint. Read an interview very recently in which Linus even claimed to like PowerPoint. He often used it for presentations about his favorite OS ;-) Mike -- Always remember, I have taken more out of alcohol than alcohol has taken out of me. --Winston Churchill _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com -- -- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://.mandrakestore.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] religion in linux OT TID
On Mon, 27 Aug 2001 16:40, Robert MacLean wrote: heres my personal stand on M$. If you think of every one of M$ products with the exception of the OS's, and imagine all the products ran on a decent OS's (eg Linux :) then think how good M$ really is. There downfall is that they have a 2 bit OS and they charge too much for there products. M$ comes out with some of the best ideas in GUI's and ways of doing things. The Windos interface pre-Win95 was a cross between that of the Mac and one developed at the Xerox PARC Institute. WinXP's Luna interface is a poor rip-off of Apple's Aqua. People attribute far too much to Microsoft, often since they haven't used the environments that originated these designs. -- Sridhar Dhanapalan. There are two major products that come from Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence. -- Jeremy S. Anderson Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] religion in linux OT TID
- Original Message - From: Robert MacLean [EMAIL PROTECTED] heres my personal stand on M$. If you think of every one of M$ products with the exception of the OS's, and imagine all the products ran on a decent OS's (eg Linux :) then think how good M$ really is. There downfall is that they have a 2 bit OS and they charge too much for there products. M$ comes out with some of the best ideas in GUI's and ways of doing things. Microsoft's Mac programs are great. I believe because they are constrained within Apple's human interface guidelines. But MS and good GUI really don't mix. A close study of MacOS and Windows really shows how poor the Windows GUI is. Apple is referred to quite a bit in the world of interface design, and their book on the human interface is practically canon. Matt _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://.mandrakestore.com
RE: [newbie] religion in linux OT TID
This isn't really on topic here, but does anyone know of any sites the compare what UI aspects of Microsoft are poor in relation to Mac (and for that matter KDE and GNOME). I always hear the Mac's UI is superior than MS, but to tell you the truth, I've never heard that claim backed up. It's very hard for me to get around Mac, and I realize that it's because I'm so use to Windows but I figured that I'm a smart enough guy that I should be able to figure it out. Some people say the Windows users try to hard and impose too much complexity on the Mac's UI and that's why they have so much trouble -- that they just need to relax more... I guess so, but I'd like to see a side by side comparison of where MS dropped the ball as far as UI design. (ps: I'm running OS X at home, you no longer have the ability to position a background, you can only tile it. Now, I might be just stupid and can't find the center preference, but if I'm right in believing that you no longer have a choice in positioning the background I'd have to say Mac goofed up on this one) -Original Message- From: Matt Greer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 11:51 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [newbie] religion in linux OT TID - Original Message - From: Robert MacLean [EMAIL PROTECTED] heres my personal stand on M$. If you think of every one of M$ products with the exception of the OS's, and imagine all the products ran on a decent OS's (eg Linux :) then think how good M$ really is. There downfall is that they have a 2 bit OS and they charge too much for there products. M$ comes out with some of the best ideas in GUI's and ways of doing things. Microsoft's Mac programs are great. I believe because they are constrained within Apple's human interface guidelines. But MS and good GUI really don't mix. A close study of MacOS and Windows really shows how poor the Windows GUI is. Apple is referred to quite a bit in the world of interface design, and their book on the human interface is practically canon. Matt _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] religion in linux OT TID
on 8/27/01 7:58 AM, Mark Johnson at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This isn't really on topic here, but does anyone know of any sites the compare what UI aspects of Microsoft are poor in relation to Mac (and for that matter KDE and GNOME). I always hear the Mac's UI is superior than MS, but to tell you the truth, I've never heard that claim backed up. It's very hard for me to get around Mac, and I realize that it's because I'm so use to Windows but I figured that I'm a smart enough guy that I should be able to figure it out. These guys are a bit Mac biased, but they do a good job pointing out the differences http://www.mackido.com/Interface/ A particularly good example is how to close a window in MacOS or Windows http://www.mackido.com/Interface/windows_close.html (ps: I'm running OS X at home This article is pre OS X. I've also never used OS X. I do know from reading about OS X, Apple took a few steps backwards in interface design. In fact earlier in OS X's development Apple was taking so many steps backwards that it caused me to get a PC instead of another Mac. They since fixed a lot of the things they were going to do poorly (but not all of them). Matt _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] religion in linux OT TID
Robert MacLean wrote: heres my personal stand on M$. If you think of every one of M$ products with the exception of the OS's, and imagine all the products ran on a decent OS's (eg Linux :) then think how good M$ really is. There downfall is that they have a 2 bit OS and they charge too much for there products. M$ comes out with some of the best ideas in GUI's and ways of doing things. This is my take on it. MS is an advertiser. The sell illusions. They mix in a few real products to trick you into thinking that they are actually selling you something, when in fact, they are trying to slowly chain you into a system in which you cannot buy anything, but have to rent it. Do you think I am being paranoid? If so, please state why? ShalomOut Chal Elder PCUSA Registered Linux user # 217118 Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://.mandrakestore.com
RE: Re: [newbie] religion in linux OT TID
Yup, I aggree... and this is also true of other scripting languages like PHP and PERL... but maybe I'm just being too much of a purist. I think you also have to understand that a lot of so called crappy programmers never had anyone show them how to write code so it's not their fault. My wife is learning ActionScripting for Flash at her new job. There is a senior programmer that she works under. I have been working with her at home on her programming skils, and the quality of her work now surpasses the her manager's work. But it's hard to fault either of them because they are simply ignorant of programming practices and plus they don't really care because they don't see themselves as programmers. I mean you just don't see a lot of discussions about design patterns and application modeling in the VB, PHP, PERL, etc.. newsgroups... It's too bad really... As linux becomes more and more popular and as time goes on some sort of basic programming skill will be required -- kind of like typing was when I was in high school. -Original Message- From: Jim Dawson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 12:52 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Re: [newbie] religion in linux OT TID That must be a popular title. I've seen more crappy prgorammers writing in VB than in any other language. ;-) Too many pepole seem to think that just because a language such as VB makes it easy to program, real programming skills are not actually required. -Original Message- From: Jay DeKing [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 19:56:52 -0400 Subject: Re: [newbie] religion in linux OT TID and today I bought a book on (cringe) VBscript, aka VB for crappy programmers, so I can customize (i.e. make functional) some new software my department at work just bought. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://.mandrakestore.com
Re: Re: [newbie] religion in linux OT TID
That must be a popular title. I've seen more crappy prgorammers writing in VB than in any other language. ;-) Too many pepole seem to think that just because a language such as VB makes it easy to program, real programming skills are not actually required. -Original Message- From: Jay DeKing [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 19:56:52 -0400 Subject: Re: [newbie] religion in linux OT TID and today I bought a book on (cringe) VBscript, aka VB for crappy programmers, so I can customize (i.e. make functional) some new software my department at work just bought. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] religion in linux OT TID
On Fri, 24 Aug 2001 14:12:00 +0200 Robert MacLean [EMAIL PROTECTED] was inspired to comment: MICROSOFT IS THE EVIL!! MICROSOFT IS THE DARK SIDE! == I absolutely agree! === MICROSOFT IS YOUR MOTHER IN LAW! Get a grip on yourself, Robert!! These types of out of control, blinded by passion and hate, diatribes will have people ignoring you as a ranting ad raving looney! Please calm down and be rational. The use of such abusive language is totally uncalled for on this list, even when referring to M$. Chill ;o) Mike -- You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline - it helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weapons, but at the very least you need a beer. - Frank Zappa _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] religion in linux OT TID
okay okay I appologise, maybe a bit excessive.but you don't have to work with internet explorer all day every day, after a while you start losing it. Robert MacLean - Original Message - From: Michael Scottaline [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 2:46 PM Subject: Re: [newbie] religion in linux OT TID On Fri, 24 Aug 2001 14:12:00 +0200 Robert MacLean [EMAIL PROTECTED] was inspired to comment: MICROSOFT IS THE EVIL!! MICROSOFT IS THE DARK SIDE! == I absolutely agree! === MICROSOFT IS YOUR MOTHER IN LAW! Get a grip on yourself, Robert!! These types of out of control, blinded by passion and hate, diatribes will have people ignoring you as a ranting ad raving looney! Please calm down and be rational. The use of such abusive language is totally uncalled for on this list, even when referring to M$. Chill ;o) Mike -- You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline - it helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weapons, but at the very least you need a beer. - Frank Zappa _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com -- -- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://.mandrakestore.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] religion in linux OT TID
on 8/24/01 9:14 AM, Robert MacLean at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: isn't mac os x, based on unix? Yup, it's based on BSD. and doesn't that mean with a but of modifying (a very small bit) the stuff written for it should work on linux? Some unix apps out now that run on Linux also have an available MacOS X counterpart. I've also noticed some apps I've installed from source talk about compiling for OSX in the readmes. or atleast the mac os x gui should work, and thus apps for the gui should work. or am i way off? Beats me. But I'd be willing to bet getting the source for the gui would be nigh impossible :) Apple does offer a free OS which is basically the unix core of Mac OS X. Although the name escapes me at the moment. Matt _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] religion in linux OT TID
On Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 04:14:07PM +0200, Robert MacLean wrote: isn't mac os x, based on unix? and doesn't that mean with a but of modifying (a very small bit) the stuff written for it should work on linux? or atleast the mac os x gui should work, and thus apps for the gui should work. or am i way off? Geez another top poster. g Mac OS X is the Quartz technology on top of the Open Source Darwin, which is based on an older version of BSD. So apps written in the Coca language will only work on Quartz, not on the underlying Darwin. So no they won't work on Linux. -- Steve - Toronto ICQ 35454764 /~\ 'If you're not a rebel when you're 20 you've got no heart; if \ / you're not establishment when you're 30 you've got no brain. X Join the ASCII ribbon campaign against HTML email/ \ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] religion in linux OT TID
On Friday 24 August 2001 16:14, Robert MacLean wrote: isn't mac os x, based on unix? and doesn't that mean with a but of modifying (a very small bit) the stuff written for it should work on linux? OS X uses a proprietary display system. I imagine that rewriting apps that use it for X Window would be non-trivial. Possible, but not easy. or atleast the mac os x gui should work, and thus apps for the gui should work. It won't work without major recompiling, and for that you'd need Apple to release the source. And before that Adobe would have to release the source to the PDF-based display system ... -- Michel Clasquin, D Litt et Phil (Unisa) [EMAIL PROTECTED]/unisa.ac.za http://www.geocities.com/clasqm This message was posted from a Microsoft-free PC To understand recursion, one must first understand recursion. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] religion in linux OT TID
on 8/24/01 8:14 AM, Robert MacLean at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: okay okay I appologise, maybe a bit excessive.but you don't have to work with internet explorer all day every day, after a while you start losing it. Heh heh. I have to admit I wish IE was available for Linux :) But don't flame me too hard. I'm coming from a Mac perspective where IE is quite good, as is Outlook Express for the Mac. Matt _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] religion in linux OT TID
I agree that IE is very good (duck rotten fruit), what bugs me is I have to develop web apps, and IE does everything differently, very differently. it's annoying have to code 2 different versions because M$ is too lazy to follow the standards that are setup. Robert MacLean - Original Message - From: Matt Greer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 3:46 PM Subject: Re: [newbie] religion in linux OT TID on 8/24/01 8:14 AM, Robert MacLean at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: okay okay I appologise, maybe a bit excessive.but you don't have to work with internet explorer all day every day, after a while you start losing it. Heh heh. I have to admit I wish IE was available for Linux :) But don't flame me too hard. I'm coming from a Mac perspective where IE is quite good, as is Outlook Express for the Mac. Matt _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com -- -- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://.mandrakestore.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://.mandrakestore.com
RE: [newbie] religion in linux OT TID
Okay, flame me too.. i liked IE for windows, but i dont miss it that much, im getting used to the Opera way of doing things.. Jamie Adams Housing Assistant - Tel: (01723) 507543 Fax: (01723) 355862 -- From: Matt Greer[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Reply To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 24 August 2001 14:46 To:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [newbie] religion in linux OT TID File: message.txt on 8/24/01 8:14 AM, Robert MacLean at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: okay okay I appologise, maybe a bit excessive.but you don't have to work with internet explorer all day every day, after a while you start losing it. Heh heh. I have to admit I wish IE was available for Linux :) But don't flame me too hard. I'm coming from a Mac perspective where IE is quite good, as is Outlook Express for the Mac. Matt _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com _ This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service. _ This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://.mandrakestore.com
