[NSP] Re: Re-Images reversed or not
Off-topic but see here http://www.marquise.de/en/themes/linksrechts.shtml Colin Hill - Original Message - From: "Richard York" To: "NSP group" Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 8:05 PM Subject: [NSP] Re-Images reversed or not Dunno about ladies, but I believe that gents have the buttons arranged so the coat/whatever hangs allowing you to be able to draw a sword - kept on the left - with the right hand. Or is this one of those moments when the bells & Klaxons go off as I present yet another urban myth? (It's also why a gent stands with lady on his right in dances, so as not to accidentally amputate, or at least annoy, lower feminine portions with a carelessly swinging sword) Best wishes, Richard. colin wrote: Gosh, some interesting points here today. Anyone know when that actual rule of placing buttons differently for men and women originated? I suppose one would have to check both sexes to see if they are both reversed. This topic comes up on quite a regular basis regarding prints of the hurdy gurdy as well - you unscrew the handle if you play it left handed :0 Unless it's constructed that way, of course with a reverse thread. Colin Hill - Original Message - From: "Dave S" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 12:32 PM Subject: [NSP] Images of reverse or not I have the idea that if one looks at the buttons on coats and waistcoats ( if present) one can solve the problem of whether the image is true or not. Ladies have buttons on the left and Gents on the right. good spotting Dave Singleton To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Prints of pipers
Ref mistakes in pictorial depictions of pipers . As someone mentioned earlier ''There are also examples in Hugh Cheape's recent book about bagpipes.'' I haven't read Hugh Cheape's book but quite a few years ago he had an article published in the LBPS magazine, Common Stock highlighting the many examples of errors made by artists, lithographers, printers etc so I expect the new book will further amplify this. Few pipers ''choose'' to play with the bag under the right arm. And note that the vast majority of people who ride a bicycle mount and dismount and, especially, when walking along pushing the bike beside them do so on the left. (Maybe its the same with horse-riders?). Anyway do we know why this is the ''natural'' way to do it? Bill To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re-Images reversed or not
Dunno about ladies, but I believe that gents have the buttons arranged so the coat/whatever hangs allowing you to be able to draw a sword - kept on the left - with the right hand. Or is this one of those moments when the bells & Klaxons go off as I present yet another urban myth? (It's also why a gent stands with lady on his right in dances, so as not to accidentally amputate, or at least annoy, lower feminine portions with a carelessly swinging sword) Best wishes, Richard. colin wrote: Gosh, some interesting points here today. Anyone know when that actual rule of placing buttons differently for men and women originated? I suppose one would have to check both sexes to see if they are both reversed. This topic comes up on quite a regular basis regarding prints of the hurdy gurdy as well - you unscrew the handle if you play it left handed :0 Unless it's constructed that way, of course with a reverse thread. Colin Hill - Original Message - From: "Dave S" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 12:32 PM Subject: [NSP] Images of reverse or not I have the idea that if one looks at the buttons on coats and waistcoats ( if present) one can solve the problem of whether the image is true or not. Ladies have buttons on the left and Gents on the right. good spotting Dave Singleton To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Reel of t
On 1/14/09, Barry Say wrote: > Personally, I think it would be a good idea if information such as > you and others have assembled in the notes to GNTB and other > publications. Could be arranged in a computer readable form > especially if other researchers could then add to the database as > scholarship develops. It's a great idea Barry but I'm not volunteering to run it. There IS already something like it in Andrew Kuntz's Fiddler's Companion site, but when I've sent him info I've had no acknowledgement. The quibble I have with his site is that much is quoted which is from unreliable sources (e.g. NM) but it's still a great first call if you're prepared to follow leads, and it's obviously the result of a phenomenal amount of work. > Your notes indicate a tune called the Reel of Tullochgorum Thomas > Wilson's Companion to the Ballroom 1816. Can you confirm/emphasise > that this is not Jimmy Allan? Confirmed and emphasised - I would have noticed..! > If the Peacock version is an outlier then perhaps it should be > considered the 'authentic' NSP version from the beginning of the 19th > century. It is that, but it's not free of typos, and also needs the (then unavailable) low Fnat to really accommodate the tune. > Then the new version becomes part of the Northumbrian cultural > heritage. Certainly that's the case with Cuckold, Sir John Fenwick and Newmarket Races (Fenwick O Bywell), to mention just three that spring quickly to the fingers. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Reel of Tullochgorum
Among old Cape Breton Scottish pipers there seems to have been no set side on which to play the pipes and photos show both left and right shouldered pipers. Some also played with hands reversed such as the late Alex Currie who had started as a piper who played with the bag under teh right arm but was forced to change during military service. He did not however change his hand positions. The picture is of him in later life http://www.clancurrie.com/images/pictures/press/2007_06june08/Alex-Curry.jpg Ian christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu wrote: < Could he be left handed or is the print backwards, I wonder. In fact the whole thing is left-handed so either of the above explanations are possible. More puzzling is the painting (Dutch 17th C) of a bellowspiper in Carbisdale Castle / Yoof Hostel, which is normal except that the piper has his right hand on the top end of the chanter and left on the bottom IIRR. chirs N���讇߶��+-�祊�b��+��b�v���i��0��j�f��ayۿ�?��^i٢��u�atml= To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Prints of pipers
from Paul a German violinist who had had an accident that ruined his right hand; he re-taught himself to play "left-handed". And of course the Beatles presented a well balanced symetrical image to the world - John and the left-handed Paul either side of the mike. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Drunk in charge of a keyboard (was "Oops typos")
Like Barry, I seem to have been celebrating TGIF 48 hours too early. For "But even today, there are numerous eminent GHB pipers who play with the bag under the left arm." please read "But even today, there are numerous eminent GHB pipers who play with the bag under the right arm." Cheers, Paul Gretton -Original Message- From: Barry Say [mailto:barr...@nspipes.co.uk] Sent: 14 January 2009 17:39 To: Nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Oops typos For Reel of Tullochgoram Thomas Wilson's read Reel of Tullochgoram in Thomas Wilson's For unch read bunch For tases read tastes Sorry Folks, not good enough. (Slaps own wrist and removes egg from face) Barry To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Reel of Tullochgorum
There were certainly engravers who got it wrong (perhaps as a result of the system of mirrors that they may have used), but the vast majority were professionals who were well aware that the ultimate product would be a mirror image of what was on the plate. Cheers, Paul Gretton -Original Message- From: gibbonssoi...@aol.com [mailto:gibbonssoi...@aol.com] Sent: 14 January 2009 12:18 To: hil...@yahoo.com Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: Reel of Tullochgorum Printing does give a mirror image, so unless the artist flips it in his head, that's what you get. John -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Prints of pipers
I have a large collection (= hundreds) of original prints of pipers (of all kinds) going back to the 15th century - OK, I'll admit that I've only got a single one from the 15^th century! ;-) - and thousand of illustrations of other (pre-classical) wind instruments. Pipers with the bag under the right arm are perfectly "normal", certainly until well into the 19^th century. The standard explanation for "bag under the left arm" becoming standard is that with the rise of GHB pipe bands it was inconvenient for marching if all the pipers didn't hold the bag on the same side. But even today, there are numerous eminent GHB pipers who play with the bag under the left arm. The great John Burgess was ambidextrous and is supposed to have psyched out the opposition in the warm-up room before competitions by playing just as brilliantly with his right hand on top as the normal way. As regards pre-classical wind instruments in general, playing with the right hand uppermost was so common - at least according to the iconography - as to be basically just as "normal" as what we nowadays consider to be standard. It is only with the advent of complex key systems around 1800 that virtually everyone seems to have switched to the "left hand uppermost" way of playing. Obviously enough, it was economical for instrument makers to manufacture a standardised product. Even so, there are still makers who - if pressed - will provide "left-handed" versions of orchestral instruments. I have played in an orchestra with a "left-handed" clarinettist - it was a rather disorientating experience. We all looked at him, thinking "There's something wrong with that guy, but I can't quite say what." Even more disorientating was playing with a German violinist who had had an accident that ruined his right hand; he re-taught himself to play "left-handed". (Just think what that involves form the neurological point of view!!!) That was SERIOUSLY disorientating - and his desk partner feared for her eyes! Cheers, Paul Gretton -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Images of reverse or not
re buttons, from somewhere in the dark recesses, I seem to remember, gentlemen dressed themselves, ladies had a maid who would "do them up" standing face to face, (probably easier than reaching round from the back in some cases anyway). Tim - Original Message - From: "colin" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 2:05 PM Subject: [NSP] Re: Images of reverse or not Gosh, some interesting points here today. Anyone know when that actual rule of placing buttons differently for men and women originated? I suppose one would have to check both sexes to see if they are both reversed. This topic comes up on quite a regular basis regarding prints of the hurdy gurdy as well - you unscrew the handle if you play it left handed :0 Unless it's constructed that way, of course with a reverse thread. Colin Hill - Original Message - From: "Dave S" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 12:32 PM Subject: [NSP] Images of reverse or not I have the idea that if one looks at the buttons on coats and waistcoats ( if present) one can solve the problem of whether the image is true or not. Ladies have buttons on the left and Gents on the right. good spotting Dave Singleton To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.6/1889 - Release Date: 1/12/2009 8:18 PM
[NSP] Oops typos
For Reel of Tullochgoram Thomas Wilson's read Reel of Tullochgoram in Thomas Wilson's For unch read bunch For tases read tastes Sorry Folks, not good enough. (Slaps own wrist and removes egg from face) Barry To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Reel of t
On 14 Jan 2009 at 13:24, Matt Seattle wrote: > Song No 289 Scots Musical Museum (see Note in GNTB - this is what the > Notes are there for, hint hint!). Thanks Matt, Personally, I think it would be a good idea if information such as you and others have assembled in the notes to GNTB and other publications. Could be arranged in a computer readable form especially if other researchers could then add to the database as scholarship develops. Your notes indicate a tune called the Reel of Tullochgorum Thomas Wilson's Companion to the Ballroom 1816. Can you confirm/emphasise that this is not Jimmy Allan? > In the song strain 1 is unrepeated > (4 bars) and strain 2 has 8 bars (unrepeated), so pretty much as you > say, though the 8 bars are not the same 4 played twice. The tune in > SMM is fairly different from Peacock, which as I said is a relative > outlier. I have it. I will transcribe it. If the Peacock version is an outlier then perhaps it should be considered the 'authentic' NSP version from the beginning of the 19th century. I would suggest that when a unch of ne'er do well Northumbrians get their hands on a gem of Scottish musicianship and butcher it to fit their own musical tases or peculiar instrument. Then the new version becomes part of the Northumbrian cultural heritage. I doubt the Scots would want it back after what we did to it. Barry --- Q: Whats the difference between Northumbrian pipes and Scottish pipes. A: Wors is a musical instrument. (Sometimes attributed to Willy Taylor) Also "Scottish Music is just a small part of Northumbrian music." and "I dont play Irish music." Same source To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Images of reverse or not
Gosh, some interesting points here today. Anyone know when that actual rule of placing buttons differently for men and women originated? I suppose one would have to check both sexes to see if they are both reversed. This topic comes up on quite a regular basis regarding prints of the hurdy gurdy as well - you unscrew the handle if you play it left handed :0 Unless it's constructed that way, of course with a reverse thread. Colin Hill - Original Message - From: "Dave S" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 12:32 PM Subject: [NSP] Images of reverse or not I have the idea that if one looks at the buttons on coats and waistcoats ( if present) one can solve the problem of whether the image is true or not. Ladies have buttons on the left and Gents on the right. good spotting Dave Singleton To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Reel of Tullochgorum
Interesting. I learned tin whistle by ear back in the 60's and play "left handed" - right hand nearest mouth purely because that seemed right for me (I am right handed). When I got my first set of pipes (simple chanter), I played that "left handed" as well which caused some fun when I had my 7-key chanter made and couldn't figure out how to reach the keys. There were few resources on playing the pipes back then (although Bill Hedworth loaned me a copy of a booklet which I forget the title of now - and which I had to copy longhand as it was out of print). It took a while to reverse things (still play the whistle left handed though). Am I right in thinking that my old friend (while he lived in Liverpool) the late Pete Rowley made his own left-handed set? Colin Hill - Original Message - From: "Philip Gruar" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 10:21 AM Subject: [NSP] Re: Reel of Tullochgorum Chris wrote: More puzzling is the painting (Dutch 17th C) of a bellowspiper in Carbisdale Castle / Yoof Hostel, which is normal except that the piper has his right hand on the top end of the chanter and left on the bottom IIRR. chirs Before standardised music lessons and printed tutors, wind instruments were quite often played right hand at the top, even in the world of art music. Where there is an off-set finger hole or a key for the bottom little finger, as on the recorder, two holes were drilled so the player could do it either way round and fill the redundant hole with wax, or the key was made with a "swallow-tail" touch. More recently, it seems to have been quite a fashion for Irish flute players to hold the flute "the wrong way round" too - shows they are proper traditional musicians unaffected by classical training; of course you can do that with a wooden open-holed flute but not with an orchestral-style one. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Reel of t
On 1/14/09, Barry Say wrote: > Are you aware of any historic publication which contains both the > words and music. The song has eight lines to a verse. I would tend > to try and fit them to ABB of the tune, because lines 5-8 and 9-12 > contain many similar words, but without working it up I wouldn't like > to stick my neck out. Song No 289 Scots Musical Museum (see Note in GNTB - this is what the Notes are there for, hint hint!). In the song strain 1 is unrepeated (4 bars) and strain 2 has 8 bars (unrepeated), so pretty much as you say, though the 8 bars are not the same 4 played twice. The tune in SMM is fairly different from Peacock, which as I said is a relative outlier. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Images of reverse or not
I have the idea that if one looks at the buttons on coats and waistcoats ( if present) one can solve the problem of whether the image is true or not. Ladies have buttons on the left and Gents on the right. good spotting Dave Singleton To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Reel of Tullochgorum
Printing does give a mirror image, so unless the artist flips it in his head, that's what you get. John -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Reel of Tullochgorum
In a message dated 14/01/2009 00:24:15 GMT Standard Time, richard.hea...@tiscali.co.uk writes: http://nms.scran.ac.uk/database/record.php?usi=000-000-579-620-C UP chanter all right, on the knee, but more like BP drones? The artist doesn't show what the tune looked like though! -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Jimmy Allan traditional (?)
I think this business of expressing rhythms in terms of word s or word groupings is fraught with difficulty as it depends on the emphasis with which you say the words. Any actor will tell you it is possible to say words or groups of words in many different ways and although it may be fun to use words to express rhythms especially with children you need to be there to hear the teacher making the point as when it is written down it can be misleading. The other point I want to make to non dancers is that the rant step can be appled in many situations in a basic 2/4 rhythm tune so that there is no defintive rant tune to search out. The recordings of the Cheviot Ranters and even the High Level Ranters contain a good number of tunes that can be ranted to so no need to look out the essential rant tune. If you want to look one out then start with Forster Charlton's, Harry's Rant or even Jimmy Allan. If you want to use that ugly term 'gobstopper' to a tune then I suppose Tullochgorum or New Highland Laddie aka Rachael Rae and Tail Toddle aka Little Wot ye Wha's Coming would come under that description. Left handed pipers have been around?from the very beginning with right hands being on top of the chanter whether left or right handed in relation to if the bag is under the left or right arm. Colin R -Original Message- From: john_da...@hmco.com To: Barry asic 2/4SayCC: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 20:07 Subject: [NSP] Re: Jimmy Allan traditional (?) Barry Say wrote: "Referring back to the earlier thread, I think Anthony Robb's point in the magazine was that it is possible to play some tunes as either a rant or a reel and he thought it important to choose the appropriate rhythm when playing in competition." If we have determined anything in this thread it's that there are varying opinions, even among judges, as to what is a rant and what is a reel, and that the title of a tune doesn't necessarily tell you what it is. There must be some tunes that can be played appropriately with the "to-MAto soup" rhythm (the light went on when it was pointed out where the down beat falls--thank you) or the "GOB stopper" rhythm. If someone could point out a definitive recording of a rant in the discography of NSP music, I would greatly appreciate it. As for "Jamie Allen", it seems natural that the names of tunes and the way they are played would change over time, especially in ! a musical culture where ear-playing is common. Joe Hutton didn't play "The Cameron Highlanders", which is also known as "Henderson's March" (I think), the way Highland pipers do, but it's the same tune and it's still a march. I once heard a busker near Seattle playing old time American music suddenly jump into "Jimmy Allen". Unfortunately, I didn't get a chance to ask him where he learned it. Perhaps it appears on an old A.L. Lloyd or Ewen MacColl recording. Once again, Barry, thanks for a great edition of the NPS Magazine. I didn't have to play the usual drinking game to get through it, and the last few pages of email humor had me laughing out loud. all the best, John -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html AOL Email goes Mobile! You can now read your AOL Emails whilst on the move. Sign up for a free AOL Email account with unlimited storage today. --
[NSP] Re: Reel of t
On 14 Jan 2009 at 10:28, Matt Seattle wrote: > Those words were written for the old tune of Tullochgorum (not 'Jimmy > Allan'). Hi Matt, Are you aware of any historic publication which contains both the words and music. The song has eight lines to a verse. I would tend to try and fit them to ABB of the tune, because lines 5-8 and 9-12 contain many similar words, but without working it up I wouldn't like to stick my neck out. Those words to that tune seem to resonate with what I seem to remember of the infamous White Heather Club from my youth. > The old tune survives in very many written versions, in both > reel and strathspey arrangements. The reel versions are, as far as I > can tell, older. Many reels were converted to strathspeys later, from > the evidence I have seen, which contradicts the opinion which is > reported (not necessarily held!) by Barry. Vickers No. 89 is a reel > version for example. The old versions are all for fiddle, the tune had > to be chopped a little to fit on 8-note chanters and even 9-note > chanters. > > Peacock's is the same (old) tune but is a different take on it. IMO > it's a rant - if Cuckold is, which may not be the consensus. There > seems to have been a practice of taking reels and strathspeys and > converting them into rants, many examples in Dixon and Peacock. At any > rate they work as rants. (I prefer to read/write them with the longer > note values of Dixon, but that's just a personal preference.) > I will repeat (and amplify) an earlier statement I made. I claim no great expertise in naming or classifying rhythms. I play tunes as I hear them or find them written and in my own mind I classify them by their similarity to other tunes and rationalise the rhythms afterwards. However, I am grateful to sucha as Anthony Robb and Matt for their attempts to describe these matters. I think they offer us a language for use in discussion even if it cannot express the full subtlety of the rhythms. Barry To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Reel of t
Those words were written for the old tune of Tullochgorum (not 'Jimmy Allan'). The old tune survives in very many written versions, in both reel and strathspey arrangements. The reel versions are, as far as I can tell, older. Many reels were converted to strathspeys later, from the evidence I have seen, which contradicts the opinion which is reported (not necessarily held!) by Barry. Vickers No. 89 is a reel version for example. The old versions are all for fiddle, the tune had to be chopped a little to fit on 8-note chanters and even 9-note chanters. Peacock's is the same (old) tune but is a different take on it. IMO it's a rant - if Cuckold is, which may not be the consensus. There seems to have been a practice of taking reels and strathspeys and converting them into rants, many examples in Dixon and Peacock. At any rate they work as rants. (I prefer to read/write them with the longer note values of Dixon, but that's just a personal preference.) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Piper print
Hi Barry, I find it interesting, as well, that in other David Allan pictures (e. g. the famous 'Highland Wedding at Blair Atholl' that is believed to show Neil Gow) the other instrumentalists are depicted playing in the normal way. In that particular picture the bagpiper in the background is holding his bag under the right arm, but he's also shown to be drinking, so it doesn't necessarily depict him in playing position. Hmmm! Richard >Original Message >From: barr...@nspipes.co.uk >Date: 14/01/2009 10:09 >To: >Subj: [NSP] Re: Piper print > >On 14 Jan 2009 at 9:43, tim rolls BT wrote: > >> Hi Richard, >> >> I haven't got my physics head on this morning, but would this be >> anything to do with the fact that many painters used a sort of camera >> obscura device to project the model onto a canvas, then did a quick >> sketch round the projected image, I can never get my head round >> whether the image just inverts vertically or swaps L-R as well. >> >> Tim >> - Original Message - >> > >Hi All, > >I had the same thought, but I came to the conclusion that image swaps >top to bottom and left to right leaving the image unchanged. If it >hadn't, all the paintings would have looked 'wrong' and clock faces >etc would have given the game away. > >-- > >For those who have been taught symmetry operations. > >A mirror causes a mirror transformation (obvious). >A pinhole is a centre of inversion. > >Thes are technical terms and I refuse to start a discussion on >Symmetry and Group theory on this list. It would beo off-topic. > >-- > >Barry > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 50% off Norton Security 2009 - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/security
[NSP] Re: Reel of Tullochgorum
Chris wrote: More puzzling is the painting (Dutch 17th C) of a bellowspiper in Carbisdale Castle / Yoof Hostel, which is normal except that the piper has his right hand on the top end of the chanter and left on the bottom IIRR. chirs Before standardised music lessons and printed tutors, wind instruments were quite often played right hand at the top, even in the world of art music. Where there is an off-set finger hole or a key for the bottom little finger, as on the recorder, two holes were drilled so the player could do it either way round and fill the redundant hole with wax, or the key was made with a "swallow-tail" touch. More recently, it seems to have been quite a fashion for Irish flute players to hold the flute "the wrong way round" too - shows they are proper traditional musicians unaffected by classical training; of course you can do that with a wooden open-holed flute but not with an orchestral-style one. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Piper print
On 14 Jan 2009 at 9:43, tim rolls BT wrote: > Hi Richard, > > I haven't got my physics head on this morning, but would this be > anything to do with the fact that many painters used a sort of camera > obscura device to project the model onto a canvas, then did a quick > sketch round the projected image, I can never get my head round > whether the image just inverts vertically or swaps L-R as well. > > Tim > - Original Message - > Hi All, I had the same thought, but I came to the conclusion that image swaps top to bottom and left to right leaving the image unchanged. If it hadn't, all the paintings would have looked 'wrong' and clock faces etc would have given the game away. -- For those who have been taught symmetry operations. A mirror causes a mirror transformation (obvious). A pinhole is a centre of inversion. Thes are technical terms and I refuse to start a discussion on Symmetry and Group theory on this list. It would beo off-topic. -- Barry To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Reel of t
On 13 Jan 2009 at 17:52, gibbonssoi...@aol.com wrote: > >Are you saying these words > >'Come gie's a sang Montgomery cried ...' > >fit the 'Reel of Tullochgorum' tune (they do) or the ex-strathspey >that's found in Peacock (they fit that too). In what follows I will refer to the tune found in Peacock as the strathspey. In this I am following the opinion of Hamish Moore who opined that the vast majority of Scottish tunes derive from and relate to the Strathspey from. I am not qualified to judge his opinion, but I will use it as an excuse to adopt a convenient handle. OK, I acknowledge the words will fit to both tunes, however I think they fit much more naturally to the strathspey version, where I feel the stress of the words fits more naturally with the stress of the tune. This is a personal opinion and I do not think it is possible to argue either way in an absolute way. However: 1) The song is called Tullochgorum which matches the published title of the Strathspey. 2) We know of no record of a tune called the Reel of Tullochgorum either in manuscript or published form. 3) It is possible that the unknown composer of The Reel of Tullochgorum composed a reel to 'fit' the words of the poem. Even in modern times there are those who are careless recording the composer when they write out music and I think this was even worse in former times when music was transmitted bye ear. It would seem likely that the Reel of Tullochgorum was composed pre- 1939 and I can come up with several reasons why the composer may have lost interest in his 'oeuvre' but I will not pursue this least I put my foot in it and get 'oeuf sur le visage'. >The difference between gobstopper and tomato soup is obscured by >the > stress of the verse. > That could be seen as fortunate Barry To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Piper print
Hi Richard, I haven't got my physics head on this morning, but would this be anything to do with the fact that many painters used a sort of camera obscura device to project the model onto a canvas, then did a quick sketch round the projected image, I can never get my head round whether the image just inverts vertically or swaps L-R as well. Tim - Original Message - From: To: Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 9:37 AM Subject: [NSP] Piper print Hi Honor, I'm no expert, but I think quite a lot of bagpipe iconography depicts the bag under the right arm. I have no idea whether or not that is due to the artist (obviously it is in the case of original paintings) or the printmaker reversing things. You'll see another example in David Allan's painting "A Highland Dance" at http://www.nationalgalleries.org/collection/online_az/4: 322/result/0/21917?initial=A&artistId=4483&artistName=David% 20Allan&submit=1 Here is shown two Scottish bagpipers playing for dancing, both having the bag under their right arm. It was painted c.1780. There are also examples in Hugh Cheape's recent book about bagpipes. Richard 50% off Norton Security 2009 - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/security To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.6/1889 - Release Date: 1/12/2009 8:18 PM
[NSP] Piper print
Hi Honor, I'm no expert, but I think quite a lot of bagpipe iconography depicts the bag under the right arm. I have no idea whether or not that is due to the artist (obviously it is in the case of original paintings) or the printmaker reversing things. You'll see another example in David Allan's painting "A Highland Dance" at http://www.nationalgalleries.org/collection/online_az/4: 322/result/0/21917?initial=A&artistId=4483&artistName=David% 20Allan&submit=1 Here is shown two Scottish bagpipers playing for dancing, both having the bag under their right arm. It was painted c.1780. There are also examples in Hugh Cheape's recent book about bagpipes. Richard 50% off Norton Security 2009 - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/security To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Reel of Tullochgorum
< Could he be left handed or is the print >backwards, I wonder. In fact the whole thing is left-handed so either of the above explanations are possible. More puzzling is the painting (Dutch 17th C) of a bellowspiper in Carbisdale Castle / Yoof Hostel, which is normal except that the piper has his right hand on the top end of the chanter and left on the bottom IIRR. chirs N���讇߶��+-�祊�b��+��b�v���i��0��j�f��ayۿ��?��^i٢���u�a�i