[NSP] The NSPlist and the NPS

[Barry Say]

Along with the rest of the list I received Alan Corkett's last 
message and I will respond to the details later but there is on point 
I feel I must raise lest a false impression is given.

I have been a member of this list for many years and I do not 
consider that my election as Magazine editor should have any effect 
on my contributions.  The only problem I found was that having 
received Chris Ormston's and Anthony Robb's articles (in particular), 
I couldnt discuss any matters that they addressed least I steal their 
thunder before publication. The NPS magazine is now in the public 
domain, so its contents are up for discussion.

I have always been very conscious that this list is independent and 
has no relationship with the Northumbrian Pipers' Society. I try to 
bear in mind that messages to this list very likely go to pipers who 
are not NPS members (for whatever reason). 

When I write to this list I do so on my own behalf unless I 
explicitly say otherwise.

Barry

On 15 Jan 2009 at 13:35, Alan Corkett wrote:

> > The Northumbrian Pipers Society are busy discussing the origins of
> > the tune Jimmy Allen which was published in EFDSS CDM6 in 1964.




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[NSP] Re: Jimmy Allen

[Barry Say]

Some years ago, I would have held the opinion that it was possible 
that tunes we play now  could be 200 years old but had only been 
written down or published in the last 50 years. In the case of 
Northumbrian and Scottish music I now think this is very unlikely.

We have a wealth of published material and manuscripts going back 
well over 200 years.  

We have several examples Vickers, Rook, the Clough Family of players 
noting down the tunes they played as an aide memoire.

The date at which a tune is written down or published is a latest 
possible date of composition.

If it was composed considerably earlier than that it would only 
survive past the lifetime of the composer by being played in public 
so that other musicians would pick it up and it would be incorporated 
into their repertoire. It would spread through the community until 
someone wrote it down.

So, if it aint wrote down somewhere it wasn't widely played.

One may suggest that a tune could be handed down through a family by 
ear for several generations, but there is no evidence that this has 
ever occurred to my knowledge.

No one ever claimed Jimmy Allan was old, we just assumed it was.

Barry




On 15 Jan 2009 at 22:57, Dru Brooke-Taylor wrote:

>   As for Jimmy Allen, one cannot prove that it was ancient from a
> negative, but it does look as though there was no one around in the
> 1960s or 1970s who claimed that they or their ancestor wrote it. If
> this reasoning were valid, which it isn't, it would be persuasive that
> if anyone once wrote it, they died before about 1900. It doesn't,
> though, unfortunately, provide any direct link to someone who died in
> 1810.
> 
> Dru
> 



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[NSP] Copyright issues

[Barry Say]

I think there are some worthwhile discussions to be had here. 

Since it is a further topic for discussion I have posted with a new 
subject to avoid confusion with the Jimmy Allan Topic which grinds 
on.

I agree with most of what Dru has said, but I believe the situation 
in the USA is rather different,   where the first person to record a 
song gains rights over it. Am I correct?

Also, how long does copyright last? 

Anyone know any good websites?

Barry




On 15 Jan 2009 at 22:57, Dru Brooke-Taylor wrote:

> There's a further topic for discussion. What does anyone claim "Trad
> C/C" means? I suspect there are people on this list who will disagree
> with me, but I think the statement 'Trad C/C' is usually a nonsense
> statement. It's either one or the other. It can't be both. Copyright
> has to belong to someone.
> 
> By calling something 'trad', in effect, a person is saying they do not
> believe there is anyone who has copyright in it. They aren't expecting
> to pay royalties for using it, or that someone will leap out of the
> woodwork who can claim them. A different copyright exists in the
> actual recording, but you do not give yourself copyright in a piece of
> music that comes from somewhere else just by finding it on a grubby
> piece of lined paper, hearing it in a session or playing it. You can
> only get such a copyright by tracing who wrote it, finding them or
> their executors, being able to show that their copyright has not
> expired and persuading them to sell it to you.
> 



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[NSP] Re: Jimmy Allen

[colin]

Trad CC refers to a traditional work which has been altered/fiddled 
with/added to etc by someone else - possibly adding another verse to a song, 
changing a few notes etc.
The original tune is copyright-free, the additions/changes are not (or may 
not be).
It may be put there when a tune (or song) can't be authenticated to be old 
enough in it's present form (cop-out just in case).
With so many variations of tunes going around, one may need to cover one's 
back just in case someone does pop out of the woodwork.
Again, it's similar to the "arranged by" we put on our work in case someone 
thinks it's good enough to record :-)

Colin Hill


- Original Message - 
From: "Dru Brooke-Taylor" 

To: "nsp" 
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 10:57 PM
Subject: [NSP] Re: Jimmy Allen




There's a further topic for discussion. What does anyone claim "Trad C/C" 
means? I suspect there are people on this list who will disagree with me, 
but I think the statement 'Trad C/C' is usually a nonsense statement. It's 
either one or the other. It can't be both. Copyright has to belong to 
someone.


By calling something 'trad', in effect, a person is saying they do not 
believe there is anyone who has copyright in it. They aren't expecting to 
pay royalties for using it, or that someone will leap out of the woodwork 
who can claim them. A different copyright exists in the actual recording, 
but you do not give yourself copyright in a piece of music that comes from 
somewhere else just by finding it on a grubby piece of lined paper, 
hearing it in a session or playing it. You can only get such a copyright 
by tracing who wrote it, finding them or their executors, being able to 
show that their copyright has not expired and persuading them to sell it 
to you.


 As for Jimmy Allen, one cannot prove that it was ancient from a negative, 
but it does look as though there was no one around in the 1960s or 1970s 
who claimed that they or their ancestor wrote it. If this reasoning were 
valid, which it isn't, it would be persuasive that if anyone once wrote 
it, they died before about 1900. It doesn't, though, unfortunately, 
provide any direct link to someone who died in 1810.


Dru


On 15 Jan 2009, at 20:18, Ian Lawther wrote:



Copyright control(led)? Often abbreviated to "Cop. Con"

Ian

malcra...@aol.com wrote:


On the vinyl itself it is not directly attributed, other than:


{All other material Trad C/C)


?


Not sure what C/C means







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[NSP] Re: Jimmy Allen

[Dru Brooke-Taylor]

There's a further topic for discussion. What does anyone claim "Trad 
C/C" means? I suspect there are people on this list who will disagree 
with me, but I think the statement 'Trad C/C' is usually a nonsense 
statement. It's either one or the other. It can't be both. Copyright 
has to belong to someone.


By calling something 'trad', in effect, a person is saying they do not 
believe there is anyone who has copyright in it. They aren't expecting 
to pay royalties for using it, or that someone will leap out of the 
woodwork who can claim them. A different copyright exists in the actual 
recording, but you do not give yourself copyright in a piece of music 
that comes from somewhere else just by finding it on a grubby piece of 
lined paper, hearing it in a session or playing it. You can only get 
such a copyright by tracing who wrote it, finding them or their 
executors, being able to show that their copyright has not expired and 
persuading them to sell it to you.


 As for Jimmy Allen, one cannot prove that it was ancient from a 
negative, but it does look as though there was no one around in the 
1960s or 1970s who claimed that they or their ancestor wrote it. If 
this reasoning were valid, which it isn't, it would be persuasive that 
if anyone once wrote it, they died before about 1900. It doesn't, 
though, unfortunately, provide any direct link to someone who died in 
1810.


Dru


On 15 Jan 2009, at 20:18, Ian Lawther wrote:



Copyright control(led)? Often abbreviated to "Cop. Con"

Ian

malcra...@aol.com wrote:


On the vinyl itself it is not directly attributed, other than:


{All other material Trad C/C)


?


Not sure what C/C means







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[NSP] Re: Jimmy Allen

[Ian Lawther]

Copyright control(led)? Often abbreviated to "Cop. Con"

Ian

malcra...@aol.com wrote:


On the vinyl itself it is not directly attributed, other than:


{All other material Trad C/C)


?


Not sure what C/C means


  




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[NSP] Re: Jimmy Allen

[malcraven]

On the Cheviot Ranters LP "The Cheviot Hills" recorded in 1972


Final track side one Jimmy Allen is llisted; but with no sleave notes.


On the vinyl itself it is not directly attributed, other than:


{All other material Trad C/C)


?


Not sure what C/C means


Regards


Malcolm


--

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[NSP] Re: Jimmy Allen

[Ian Lawther]

Jimmy Allen is on "The Cheviot Hills" by the Cheviot Ranters which was 
released on Topic (12TS222) in 1972 so later than dates already 
discussed in the 1960s.


For anybody looking for information on Topics records Rod Stradling's 
Musical Traditions website has a very thorough list at

http://www.mustrad.org.uk/discos/discog.htm

Ian




julia@nspipes.co.uk wrote:


I can only make two further suggestions for dating - the track 
listings of the two (3?) Cheviot Ranters LPs, and their written 
repertoire - which I believe to be in private possession, but 
reasonably accessible.


Cheers
Julia


  




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[NSP] Re: further JA research

[tim rolls BT]

or perhaps Rory Bremner, doing an impression...

Tim
- Original Message - 
From: 

To: 
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 6:18 PM
Subject: [NSP] further JA research



Tullochgorum shows up as 'the corn bunting' and 'the blue green hill'
as well as 'the dark blue hill ' we are now back to robert Bremner --
Scot Skinner also has it with variations --

still digging

Dave Singleton




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Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.7/1895 - Release Date: 1/15/2009 
7:46 AM

[NSP] Re: Jimmy Allen

[Julia . Say]

On 15 Jan 2009, colin wrote: 

> When it appeared in
> the NSP tunebook, did it come about from "oh I know a good one" or are
> there any indications as to an older date/source etc. 1964 isn't that
> long ago to some of us. 

The drafts & suggested tunes for the 1970 edition of the 1st tunebook 
are pasted into a book which was also used for the 1936 edition.
I have it in front of me - none of them are dated or give sources. 
Jimmy Allan is no. 6 of 17, not all of which were printed in tunebook 
1- no. 1 for example, is an "Air with variations" by Forster 
Charlton, which later became Jim Hall's Fancy

The editors were Forster Charlton, Colin Ross, and Roland Wright. 
Only Colin is still with us, and he is unsure where, precisely, he 
learnt it. It was just "there".

So at present Barry's theory is as good as any - pinching a good tune 
and (sometimes) renaming it being somewhat of a tradition in itself 
in the area - and probably elsewhere, for all I know.

I can only make two further suggestions for dating - the track 
listings of the two (3?) Cheviot Ranters LPs, and their written 
repertoire - which I believe to be in private possession, but 
reasonably accessible.

Cheers
Julia



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[NSP] Re: Jimmy Allen

[colin]

Not having the will to resist a good Google search, I came across this 
variation which I haven't heard before (American).

http://www.traditionalmusic.co.uk/old-time-music/midi/005200.MID
No accreditation for the extra "fiddly bits".
I had no idea (back in '73) that I was learning such a "new" tune :-) and, 
I'm sure, there's not one piper here who has never played it at some stage.
I agree that such a well-known tune would have been published well before 
1964 had it been around.

This is a very interesting thread.
When it appeared in the NSP tunebook, did it come about from "oh I know a 
good one" or are there any indications as to an older date/source etc. 1964 
isn't that long ago to some of us.

Colin Hill
- Original Message - 
From: "Gibbons, John" 

To: "Alan Corkett" ; 
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 3:40 PM
Subject: [NSP] Re: Jimmy Allen




If the tune was not recorded pre 1974 (it seems), or known to be
published pre 1964,
then to assume 'it has been around for ever' is a bit of a long shot.
It doesn't appear in any of the sources on Farne, so if old it may still
be a recent import to the NE.
If it were an old NE tune I would expect to see it in Vickers or
somewhere. It isn't.

John



-Original Message-
From: Alan Corkett [mailto:a...@bcorkett.freeserve.co.uk]
Sent: 15 January 2009 13:35
To: NSP LIST
Subject: [NSP] Re: Jimmy Allen


Dear Pipers
I forwarded an extract of the problem about sources to the EFDSS library
-
here is the reply I received.
Regards
Alan Corkett

-Original Message-
From: Elaine Bradtke [mailto:e...@efdss.org]
Sent: 15 January 2009 11:19
To: a...@bcorkett.freeserve.co.uk >> Alan Corkett
Subject: Re: Fw: Jimmy Allen



The CDM vol. 6 was published in 1964.  We don't seem to have an earlier
version of it, and nothing in manuscript form. The recordings we have of
it don't date back that far either. It would be interesting to see if
it's in Peter Kennedy's collection - perhaps you could check with the
National Sound Archive,0207-589 6603

or Topic Records, who are producing a retrospective series based on his
collection.
Tony Engle
email: tonyen...@topicrecords.co.uk
0207-263 1240

 The Northumbrian connection appears to have come from the name.
I checked the Fiddler's Companion - a reasonably reliable if slightly
North American biased source:
http://www.ibiblio.org/fiddlers/JIG_JM.htm#JIMMY_ALLEN


JIMMY ALLEN. AKA and see "Jamie Allen," "Reel of Tullochgorum." English,
Scottish, American, Polka or March. England, Northumberland. USA, New
England. G Major. Standard tuning. AABB. Northumbrian musician Jamie
Allen (1734-1810) was a famous small pipes player whose name is
associated with this tune. Allen's father Will (1704-1779) was perhaps a
pipemaker and was River Warden of the Coquet. His wife, Jimmy's mother,
was a gypsy, and the elder Allen associated much with her folk. Son
Jimmy (or Jamie) was the subject of two biographies, largely fanciful,
and it is hard to determine the facts of his life. It is said he was at
various times piper to the Duchess of Northumberland, enlisted in the
army, and a fugitive from justice. At any rate, he was highly regarded
by his contemporaries as a musician and is thought to have played the
Northumbrian smallpipes, Border pipes, and Union (uilleann) pipes.
English/Scottish versions are found under the "Jamie" title, American
appear often as "Jimmy." The melody is popular in English sessions in
modern times, although considered to be somewhat of a 'beginner's tune'.
Miller & Perron (101 Polkas), 1978; No. 52. Miller & Perron (New England
Fiddlers Repertoire), 1983; No. 63.

Maddeningly, he doesn't give his source for the historical information.
 We don't have Miller & Perron 101 Polkas, so it may be from there.
Another diverting, if not necessarily enlightening discussion of the
tune is here:http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/6354
Sorry we can't trace it back any further. It sounds like it's been
around forever. . .



Dear Malcolm

A Happy New Year to you!

The Northumbrian Pipers Society are busy discussing the origins of the
tune Jimmy Allen which was published in EFDSS CDM6 in 1964.
I felt I might have learnt this tune in the 1950s as an easy/beginners
tune, but not if it was not published till 1964, unless picked up

aurally

Can you throw any light on this mystery.
Regards
Alan Corkett

NB. Barry Say who edits their NPS magazine wrote this (an extract...)

As an exercise, I tried to think of old tunes which would serve as
initial targets for beginner pipers.

In the course of this, Jimmy Allan sprang to mind, but I found that it
did not appear in the Peacock Collection, Bewick Book, or the Vickers
collection and to my surprise, it did not appear in the first edition

of

the Northumbrian Pipers' Tunebook (1936) nor in the Fiddler's Tune
book(1951/54) edited by Peter Kennedy.

Peter Kennedy was a pivotal figure in the traditional music scene in

the

1950s and 60s and worked extensively in the North-East a

[NSP] further JA research

[davidsin]

Tullochgorum shows up as 'the corn bunting' and 'the blue green hill'  
as well as 'the dark blue hill ' we are now back to robert Bremner --   
Scot Skinner also has it with variations --


still digging

Dave Singleton




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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: Jimmy Allen

[Gibbons, John]

 If the tune was not recorded pre 1974 (it seems), or known to be
published pre 1964, 
then to assume 'it has been around for ever' is a bit of a long shot.
It doesn't appear in any of the sources on Farne, so if old it may still
be a recent import to the NE.
If it were an old NE tune I would expect to see it in Vickers or
somewhere. It isn't.

John



-Original Message-
From: Alan Corkett [mailto:a...@bcorkett.freeserve.co.uk] 
Sent: 15 January 2009 13:35
To: NSP LIST
Subject: [NSP] Re: Jimmy Allen


Dear Pipers
I forwarded an extract of the problem about sources to the EFDSS library
-
here is the reply I received.
Regards
Alan Corkett

-Original Message-
From: Elaine Bradtke [mailto:e...@efdss.org]
Sent: 15 January 2009 11:19
To: a...@bcorkett.freeserve.co.uk >> Alan Corkett
Subject: Re: Fw: Jimmy Allen



The CDM vol. 6 was published in 1964.  We don't seem to have an earlier
version of it, and nothing in manuscript form. The recordings we have of
it don't date back that far either. It would be interesting to see if
it's in Peter Kennedy's collection - perhaps you could check with the
National Sound Archive,0207-589 6603

or Topic Records, who are producing a retrospective series based on his
collection.
Tony Engle
email: tonyen...@topicrecords.co.uk
0207-263 1240

  The Northumbrian connection appears to have come from the name.
I checked the Fiddler's Companion - a reasonably reliable if slightly
North American biased source:
http://www.ibiblio.org/fiddlers/JIG_JM.htm#JIMMY_ALLEN


JIMMY ALLEN. AKA and see "Jamie Allen," "Reel of Tullochgorum." English,
Scottish, American, Polka or March. England, Northumberland. USA, New
England. G Major. Standard tuning. AABB. Northumbrian musician Jamie
Allen (1734-1810) was a famous small pipes player whose name is
associated with this tune. Allen's father Will (1704-1779) was perhaps a
pipemaker and was River Warden of the Coquet. His wife, Jimmy's mother,
was a gypsy, and the elder Allen associated much with her folk. Son
Jimmy (or Jamie) was the subject of two biographies, largely fanciful,
and it is hard to determine the facts of his life. It is said he was at
various times piper to the Duchess of Northumberland, enlisted in the
army, and a fugitive from justice. At any rate, he was highly regarded
by his contemporaries as a musician and is thought to have played the
Northumbrian smallpipes, Border pipes, and Union (uilleann) pipes.
English/Scottish versions are found under the "Jamie" title, American
appear often as "Jimmy." The melody is popular in English sessions in
modern times, although considered to be somewhat of a 'beginner's tune'.
Miller & Perron (101 Polkas), 1978; No. 52. Miller & Perron (New England
Fiddlers Repertoire), 1983; No. 63.

Maddeningly, he doesn't give his source for the historical information.
  We don't have Miller & Perron 101 Polkas, so it may be from there.
Another diverting, if not necessarily enlightening discussion of the
tune is here:http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/6354
Sorry we can't trace it back any further. It sounds like it's been
around forever. . .

>
> Dear Malcolm
>
> A Happy New Year to you!
>
> The Northumbrian Pipers Society are busy discussing the origins of the
> tune Jimmy Allen which was published in EFDSS CDM6 in 1964.
> I felt I might have learnt this tune in the 1950s as an easy/beginners
> tune, but not if it was not published till 1964, unless picked up
aurally
> Can you throw any light on this mystery.
> Regards
> Alan Corkett
>
> NB. Barry Say who edits their NPS magazine wrote this (an extract...)
>
> As an exercise, I tried to think of old tunes which would serve as
> initial targets for beginner pipers.
>
> In the course of this, Jimmy Allan sprang to mind, but I found that it
> did not appear in the Peacock Collection, Bewick Book, or the Vickers
> collection and to my surprise, it did not appear in the first edition
of
> the Northumbrian Pipers' Tunebook (1936) nor in the Fiddler's Tune
> book(1951/54) edited by Peter Kennedy.
>
> Peter Kennedy was a pivotal figure in the traditional music scene in
the
> 1950s and 60s and worked extensively in the North-East and is probably
> the person most responsible for making the music of the North-East of
> England available to the whole of England in that period. I do not
> intend this as either praise or criticism.
>
> I had always assumed from its name that it was part of the
Northumbrian
> tradition, but I am beginning to suspect that we have been deceived by
> our own willingness to believe that which seems convenient.
>
> The tune as we know it appears in the EFDSS Community dance manual
> volume 6 on a page with two tunes composed in 1961. The copyright
dates
> would indicate that it was published in 1964 or 1967. I cannot lay my
> hands on my copy of this but I am sure that this publication was
> certainly part of Peter Kennedy's sphere of influence, but the fact
that
> it does not appear in the first two volumes of the Fiddle

[NSP] Re: Jimmy Allen

[Alan Corkett]

Dear Pipers
I forwarded an extract of the problem about sources to the EFDSS library -
here is the reply I received.
Regards
Alan Corkett

-Original Message-
From: Elaine Bradtke [mailto:e...@efdss.org]
Sent: 15 January 2009 11:19
To: a...@bcorkett.freeserve.co.uk >> Alan Corkett
Subject: Re: Fw: Jimmy Allen



The CDM vol. 6 was published in 1964.  We don't seem to have an earlier
version of it, and nothing in manuscript form. The recordings we have of
it don't date back that far either. It would be interesting to see if
it's in Peter Kennedy's collection - perhaps you could check with the
National Sound Archive,0207-589 6603

or Topic Records, who are producing a retrospective series based on his
collection.
Tony Engle
email: tonyen...@topicrecords.co.uk
0207-263 1240

  The Northumbrian connection appears to have come from the name.
I checked the Fiddler's Companion - a reasonably reliable if slightly
North American biased source:
http://www.ibiblio.org/fiddlers/JIG_JM.htm#JIMMY_ALLEN


JIMMY ALLEN. AKA and see “Jamie Allen,” “Reel of Tullochgorum.” English,
Scottish, American, Polka or March. England, Northumberland. USA, New
England. G Major. Standard tuning. AABB. Northumbrian musician Jamie
Allen (1734-1810) was a famous small pipes player whose name is
associated with this tune. Allen’s father Will (1704-1779) was perhaps a
pipemaker and was River Warden of the Coquet. His wife, Jimmy’s mother,
was a gypsy, and the elder Allen associated much with her folk. Son
Jimmy (or Jamie) was the subject of two biographies, largely fanciful,
and it is hard to determine the facts of his life. It is said he was at
various times piper to the Duchess of Northumberland, enlisted in the
army, and a fugitive from justice. At any rate, he was highly regarded
by his contemporaries as a musician and is thought to have played the
Northumbrian smallpipes, Border pipes, and Union (uilleann) pipes.
English/Scottish versions are found under the “Jamie” title, American
appear often as “Jimmy.” The melody is popular in English sessions in
modern times, although considered to be somewhat of a ‘beginner’s tune’.
Miller & Perron (101 Polkas), 1978; No. 52. Miller & Perron (New England
Fiddlers Repertoire), 1983; No. 63.

Maddeningly, he doesn't give his source for the historical information.
  We don't have Miller & Perron 101 Polkas, so it may be from there.
Another diverting, if not necessarily enlightening discussion of the
tune is here:http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/6354
Sorry we can't trace it back any further. It sounds like it's been
around forever. . .

>
> Dear Malcolm
>
> A Happy New Year to you!
>
> The Northumbrian Pipers Society are busy discussing the origins of the
> tune Jimmy Allen which was published in EFDSS CDM6 in 1964.
> I felt I might have learnt this tune in the 1950s as an easy/beginners
> tune, but not if it was not published till 1964, unless picked up aurally
> Can you throw any light on this mystery.
> Regards
> Alan Corkett
>
> NB. Barry Say who edits their NPS magazine wrote this (an extract...)
>
> As an exercise, I tried to think of old tunes which would serve as
> initial targets for beginner pipers.
>
> In the course of this, Jimmy Allan sprang to mind, but I found that it
> did not appear in the Peacock Collection, Bewick Book, or the Vickers
> collection and to my surprise, it did not appear in the first edition of
> the Northumbrian Pipers' Tunebook (1936) nor in the Fiddler's Tune
> book(1951/54) edited by Peter Kennedy.
>
> Peter Kennedy was a pivotal figure in the traditional music scene in the
> 1950s and 60s and worked extensively in the North-East and is probably
> the person most responsible for making the music of the North-East of
> England available to the whole of England in that period. I do not
> intend this as either praise or criticism.
>
> I had always assumed from its name that it was part of the Northumbrian
> tradition, but I am beginning to suspect that we have been deceived by
> our own willingness to believe that which seems convenient.
>
> The tune as we know it appears in the EFDSS Community dance manual
> volume 6 on a page with two tunes composed in 1961. The copyright dates
> would indicate that it was published in 1964 or 1967. I cannot lay my
> hands on my copy of this but I am sure that this publication was
> certainly part of Peter Kennedy's sphere of influence, but the fact that
> it does not appear in the first two volumes of the Fiddlers Tune book,
> would indicate that he was unaware of it in 1951 and had found it by 1964.
>
> The Reel of Tullochgorum is almost certainly the same tune but is
> reckoned to be in D. It was published by Ian Powrie, apparently in the
> late 1950s and it seems that he claimed that it was a traditional tune
> which he had collected. Ian lived in Perthshire - so that is the first
> place we would suspect.
>
> Now we come to the important link. Ian Powrie lead a Scottish Dance Band
> which appeared on the 'White H

[NSP] Re: Reel of Tullochgorum

[rosspipes]

Hi Colin,


Pete asked me to make left handed chanter for him and I have made one or two 
since I have been making pipes including tying the stocks in the other side of 
the bag.


Colin R










-Original Message-

From: colin 

To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu

Sent: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 13:59

Subject: [NSP] Re: Reel of Tullochgorum





Interesting.?

I learned tin whistle by ear back in the 60's and play "left handed" - right 
hand nearest mouth purely because that seemed right for me (I am right handed).?

When I got my first set of pipes (simple chanter), I played that "left handed" 
as well which caused some fun when I had my 7-key chanter made and couldn't 
figure out how to reach the keys.?

There were few resources on playing the pipes back then (although Bill Hedworth 
loaned me a copy of a booklet which I forget the title of now - and which I had 
to copy longhand as it was out of print).?

It took a while to reverse things (still play the whistle left handed though).?

Am I right in thinking that my old friend (while he lived in Liverpool) the 
late Pete Rowley made his own left-handed set??

Colin Hill?

- Original Message - From: "Philip Gruar" 
?

To: ?

Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 10:21 AM?

Subject: [NSP] Re: Reel of Tullochgorum?

?

>?

> Chris wrote:?

>?

>?

>> More puzzling is the painting (Dutch 17th C) of a bellowspiper in 
>> Carbisdale Castle / Yoof Hostel, which is normal except that the piper 
>> has his right hand on the top end of the chanter and left on the 
bottom >> IIRR.?

>> chirs?

>?

> Before standardised music lessons and printed tutors, wind instruments 
> were quite often played right hand at the top, even in the world of art 
> music. Where there is an off-set finger hole or a key for the bottom > 
little finger, as on the recorder, two holes were drilled so the player > 
could do it either way round and fill the redundant hole with wax, or the > 
key was made with a "swallow-tail" touch.?

> More recently, it seems to have been quite a fashion for Irish flute > 
players to hold the flute "the wrong way round" too - shows they are > 
proper traditional musicians unaffected by classical training; of course > 
you can do that with a wooden open-holed flute but not with an > 
orchestral-style one.?

>?

>?

>?

> To get on or off this list see list information at?

> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html?

>?

> ?

?



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[NSP] Re: Prints of pipers

[Christopher.Birch]

I gather the unexplanation of the Goebel's paralysis was carpal tunnel 
syndrome.  
c

>-Original Message-
>From: Paul Gretton [mailto:i...@gretton-willems.com] 
>Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 12:01 PM
>To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu
>Subject: [NSP] Re: Prints of pipers
>
>
>
-Original Message-
From: Paul Gretton [mailto:i...@gretton-willems.com] 
Sent: 15 January 2009 11:51
To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [NSP] Re: Prints of pipers
>
Oops! Yes, I do mean that he ruined his **right** hand. 
>
>DAMMIT! NO, I DON'T that...@#*$%#!!
>
>I mean he ruined his LEFT hand, the one he fingered the strings with.
>
>You can see how disorienting all this is!  :-)
>
>Paul
>
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>

[NSP] Re: Prints of pipers

[Christopher.Birch]

It appears to have disoriented the author of this article too:

http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Bio/Goebel-Reinhard.htm

"After unexplained paralysis struck his right hand, Goebel abandoned his career 
as a solo violinist, although he continued to play with his group, bowing the 
violin with his left hand."

Probably producing some nice drones, so it's not that far off topic ;-)
chirs

 

>-Original Message-
>From: Paul Gretton [mailto:i...@gretton-willems.com] 
>Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 12:01 PM
>To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu
>Subject: [NSP] Re: Prints of pipers
>
>
>
-Original Message-
From: Paul Gretton [mailto:i...@gretton-willems.com] 
Sent: 15 January 2009 11:51
To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [NSP] Re: Prints of pipers
>
Oops! Yes, I do mean that he ruined his **right** hand. 
>
>DAMMIT! NO, I DON'T that...@#*$%#!!
>
>I mean he ruined his LEFT hand, the one he fingered the strings with.
>
>You can see how disorienting all this is!  :-)
>
>Paul
>
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>

[NSP] Re: Prints of pipers

[Paul Gretton]

>>>-Original Message-
>>>From: Paul Gretton [mailto:i...@gretton-willems.com] 
>>>Sent: 15 January 2009 11:51
>>>To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu
>>>Subject: [NSP] Re: Prints of pipers

>>>Oops! Yes, I do mean that he ruined his **right** hand. 

DAMMIT! NO, I DON'T that...@#*$%#!!

I mean he ruined his LEFT hand, the one he fingered the strings with.

You can see how disorienting all this is!  :-)

Paul



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[NSP] Re: Prints of pipers

[Paul Gretton]

Oops! Yes, I do mean that he ruined his **right** hand. He used to play in
the standard way with the instrument on his left shoulder and the bow in his
right hand. Now he plays the other way round.

Paul

-Original Message-
From: christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu [mailto:christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu]

Sent: 15 January 2009 10:19
To: i...@gretton-willems.com; nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [NSP] Re: Prints of pipers

>Even more
>   disorientating was playing with a German violinist who had had an
>   accident that ruined his right hand; he re-taught himself to play
>   "left-handed".


A minor quibble, but do you mean "ruined his *left* hand"? I can imagine
bowing with an injured right hand as long as the wrist, elbow and shoulder
were still ok, but doing the job normally assigned to the left hand with an
injured right sounds impossible.



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[NSP] Re: Prints of pipers

[Christopher.Birch]

>Even more
>   disorientating was playing with a German violinist who had had an
>   accident that ruined his right hand; he re-taught himself to play
>   "left-handed".


A minor quibble, but do you mean "ruined his *left* hand"? I can imagine bowing 
with an injured right hand as long as the wrist, elbow and shoulder were still 
ok, but doing the job normally assigned to the left hand with an injured right 
sounds impossible.

I know a left-handed cellist who tried to learn "the right way round" but found 
it much easier when she reversed everything. This suggests that, for some 
people at least, one way is more natural than the other at the neurological 
level.

I also know a brilliant left-handed guitarist who plays right-handed (ditto 
violinist), so it's probably all down to the individual.   

chirs



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