[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
Oops, outlook tells me I've already sent a reply. I wonder what it said... Barry, et al. May I point you to the Dolmetsch dictionary http://www.dolmetsch.com/defss4.htm Thanks, this is very interesting but unfortunately reminds me that dictionaries are not infallible. (I have been working as a professional translator since 1974). And indeed that musicians and lexicographers cannot always agree on the precise meaning of the terminology they use. For example, here: http://www.winterkonzerte.de/fachbegriffe.html I found: spiccato: Deutlich, abgesetzt, mit gestoßenen Noten (Bogentechnik bei Streichinstrumenten). staccato: Gestoßen, kurz, abgehackt. Gegensatz:- legato The terminology here is very vague, and doesn't explain the fundamental difference between staccato and spiccato, i.e. that staccato stays on the string and spiccato bounces. This is further confused by the fact that French-speakers tend to call any bouncing stroke sautillé even though this term more strictly applies to the rapid bouncing of the wood of the bow unassisted, as it were, and is related to tremolo. sautillé works well on fast semiquavers, spiccato can be used on relatively slow notes. It is performed with the upper arm and the bow reaches and leaves the string like an aircraft landing and immediatly taking off again or like a stone skimmed across water. Back to Dolmetsch: it does give staccare (Italian) to detach, to separate each note as the basic meaning. Then things get complicated. For example, I can assure you that détaché means what I described in my previous posting, as also found here: http://www.violinonline.com/bowstrokes.htm Détaché indicates smooth, separate bow strokes should be used for each note (it does not mean detached or disconnected). Notes are of equal value, and are produced with an even, seamless stroke with no variation in pressure. Not because I necessarily trust this source (for example, it makes martelé and staccato sound like the same thing) but having been trained in Luxembourg (where the system and terminology are very much based on the French model) and Liège - and sometimes by French-speaking teachers - this is what I have learnt that the expressions mean. Back to Dolmetsch again: it implies that staccato is the same thing as gestoßen (German), détaché (French), piqué (French). Gestoßen certainly means détaché but piqué doesn't; it means something more like staccatissimo. So I wouldn't rely too much on dictionaries (for example, what is the relevance of the reference to Monteverdi's use of pizzicato in this context?) Personally, staccato is a word I use for musical effects and never for a piping style. I think it merely confuses matters. Quite rightly. But it does have a technical meaning for string players. Sorry if I sound like a know-all, but the above is merely a distillation of what I have gathered over several decades to be the consensus among practising string players as opposed to lexicographers and musicologists and is offered FWIW. Best, Chris (wer übt, hat's nötig) Birch To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
On 20 Jun 2011, Gibbons, John wrote: stacc. abbreviated form of staccato (Italian: detached, separated) staccare (Italian) to detach, to separate each note The word has its natural meaning, in other words. Stacatissimo is what some people think it means, but it doesn't! I believe I read (probably in the online dolmetsch.com music theory site since that's what I tend to use) that in classical / art music terms these days, a note with a staccato dot should be played half length of what is printed, (so a crotchet becomes a quaver, for instance), whilst staccatissimo means the note should be played one quarter of the written value. I have more than a suspicion that the precise meaning of these terms varies from instrument to instrument (different characteristics and all that) as well as through historical and musical time. Maybe an exploration of the relevance and meaning of such terms for the nsp is worthwhile. Tenuto also appears to mean separated, but only by a hair's breadth, which I think we should appropriate, as it describes exactly what we sometimes want. Reading (this time on Wikipedia) legato can be either separated or joined (slurred legato?) depending on instrument and context. What / which do we (nsp-ers) mean by it? And under what circumstances? I once played classical flute - where staccato dots often (but not always) meant tongueing, slurs meant no tongueing. And so on and so forth. Each of us is coming to the nsp with a slightly different perspective and experience and we have to bear this in mind in discussions We have staccatissimo marks in Peacock on Meggy's Foot - and all seem agreed that this is a highly exaggerated staccato tune. So, in our case, staccatissimo could be said to be as short as you can possibly make it, whilst staccato is with the bounce that most players seem to apply to (for example) the first of a pair of repeated notes. Not something that's ever been pointed out to me formally but most players do it, almost by instinct. Which makes it traditional in my book. If we can find a consensus on how these terms are / should be used in nspiping, discussions might be a little less confrontational. Julia (who has been told off by both Chris O and I- Adrian for playing too staccato - yees!) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
that's what I tend to use) that in classical / art music terms these days, a note with a staccato dot should be played half length of what is printed, (so a crotchet becomes a quaver, for instance), This is the convention I'm familiar with too. I find a useful practise technique for NSP, now that I'm emerging from the doldrums (= renewed obsession with fiddle/violin/viola/viols there are not enough hours in the day) and learning the Jacky Layton variations, is to set the metronome to the semiquaver (very slowly for the time being) and play the semis as demis, the quavers as semis, dotted quavers as quavers and crotchets as dotted quavers. Strict discipline, folks. Do you think Inky and the Big O would approve? Csírz PS détaché doesn't meant the same thing. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
On 21 Jun 2011, at 10:38, christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu wrote: now that I'm emerging from the doldrums Doldra, surely? Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
I forgot to mention the stupid percussion, sorry ;-) c -Original Message- From: Francis Wood [mailto:oatenp...@googlemail.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 11:53 AM To: BIRCH Christopher (DGT) Cc: julia@nspipes.co.uk; barr...@nspipes.co.uk; j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk; nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: [NSP] Re: Deaf/dead On 21 Jun 2011, at 10:38, christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu wrote: now that I'm emerging from the doldrums Doldra, surely? Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
Hello Julia and others, I like this reply very much. This has been a good thread and a great endorsement of the varied interests which emerge from and return to the discussion of our favourite instrument. It's also a good demonstration of both the value and the disadvantages of this list medium. The disadvantages are obvious. Searching for topics in the list archives would be unsuccessful in the present instance since the header is 'Deaf/Dead' . . the discussion has now migrated far from that original idea. For sequence of topics and responses the Forum medium is far superior. On the other hand, the present list facility is excellent for immediate conversational responses. And I must say, I thoroughly enjoy the odd and interesting mutations that emerge in these discussions! Francis On 21 Jun 2011, at 10:05, Julia Say wrote: On 20 Jun 2011, Gibbons, John wrote: stacc. abbreviated form of staccato (Italian: detached, separated) staccare (Italian) to detach, to separate each note The word has its natural meaning, in other words. Stacatissimo is what some people think it means, but it doesn't! I believe I read (probably in the online dolmetsch.com music theory site since that's what I tend to use) that in classical / art music terms these days, a note with a staccato dot should be played half length of what is printed, (so a crotchet becomes a quaver, for instance), whilst staccatissimo means the note should be played one quarter of the written value. I have more than a suspicion that the precise meaning of these terms varies from instrument to instrument (different characteristics and all that) as well as through historical and musical time. Maybe an exploration of the relevance and meaning of such terms for the nsp is worthwhile. Tenuto also appears to mean separated, but only by a hair's breadth, which I think we should appropriate, as it describes exactly what we sometimes want. Reading (this time on Wikipedia) legato can be either separated or joined (slurred legato?) depending on instrument and context. What / which do we (nsp-ers) mean by it? And under what circumstances? I once played classical flute - where staccato dots often (but not always) meant tongueing, slurs meant no tongueing. And so on and so forth. Each of us is coming to the nsp with a slightly different perspective and experience and we have to bear this in mind in discussions We have staccatissimo marks in Peacock on Meggy's Foot - and all seem agreed that this is a highly exaggerated staccato tune. So, in our case, staccatissimo could be said to be as short as you can possibly make it, whilst staccato is with the bounce that most players seem to apply to (for example) the first of a pair of repeated notes. Not something that's ever been pointed out to me formally but most players do it, almost by instinct. Which makes it traditional in my book. If we can find a consensus on how these terms are / should be used in nspiping, discussions might be a little less confrontational. Julia (who has been told off by both Chris O and I- Adrian for playing too staccato - yees!) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
And no one threw any tantra C -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Francis Wood Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 12:17 PM To: julia@nspipes.co.uk Cc: Dartmouth nsp list N.P.S. site Subject: [NSP] Re: Deaf/dead Hello Julia and others, I like this reply very much. This has been a good thread and a great endorsement of the varied interests which emerge from and return to the discussion of our favourite instrument. It's also a good demonstration of both the value and the disadvantages of this list medium. The disadvantages are obvious. Searching for topics in the list archives would be unsuccessful in the present instance since the header is 'Deaf/Dead' . . the discussion has now migrated far from that original idea. For sequence of topics and responses the Forum medium is far superior. On the other hand, the present list facility is excellent for immediate conversational responses. And I must say, I thoroughly enjoy the odd and interesting mutations that emerge in these discussions! Francis On 21 Jun 2011, at 10:05, Julia Say wrote: On 20 Jun 2011, Gibbons, John wrote: stacc. abbreviated form of staccato (Italian: detached, separated) staccare(Italian) to detach, to separate each note The word has its natural meaning, in other words. Stacatissimo is what some people think it means, but it doesn't! I believe I read (probably in the online dolmetsch.com music theory site since that's what I tend to use) that in classical / art music terms these days, a note with a staccato dot should be played half length of what is printed, (so a crotchet becomes a quaver, for instance), whilst staccatissimo means the note should be played one quarter of the written value. I have more than a suspicion that the precise meaning of these terms varies from instrument to instrument (different characteristics and all that) as well as through historical and musical time. Maybe an exploration of the relevance and meaning of such terms for the nsp is worthwhile. Tenuto also appears to mean separated, but only by a hair's breadth, which I think we should appropriate, as it describes exactly what we sometimes want. Reading (this time on Wikipedia) legato can be either separated or joined (slurred legato?) depending on instrument and context. What / which do we (nsp-ers) mean by it? And under what circumstances? I once played classical flute - where staccato dots often (but not always) meant tongueing, slurs meant no tongueing. And so on and so forth. Each of us is coming to the nsp with a slightly different perspective and experience and we have to bear this in mind in discussions We have staccatissimo marks in Peacock on Meggy's Foot - and all seem agreed that this is a highly exaggerated staccato tune. So, in our case, staccatissimo could be said to be as short as you can possibly make it, whilst staccato is with the bounce that most players seem to apply to (for example) the first of a pair of repeated notes. Not something that's ever been pointed out to me formally but most players do it, almost by instinct. Which makes it traditional in my book. If we can find a consensus on how these terms are / should be used in nspiping, discussions might be a little less confrontational. Julia (who has been told off by both Chris O and I- Adrian for playing too staccato - yees!) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
When I was in a choir, a composer of a piece we'd commissioned explained legato, poco staccato and staccato respectively as pah, pom, and pop. For NSP, pah is a no-no, as notes need definite ends. So the spectrum we work between is somewhere between pom and pop. Occasional ventures into staccatissimo, as in Meggy's Foot, need a pip instead. But generally the notes should come out like peas, not lentils. John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu Sent: 21 June 2011 09:45 To: barr...@nspipes.co.uk Cc: rich...@lizards.force9.co.uk; nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: Deaf/dead Oops, outlook tells me I've already sent a reply. I wonder what it said... Barry, et al. May I point you to the Dolmetsch dictionary http://www.dolmetsch.com/defss4.htm Thanks, this is very interesting but unfortunately reminds me that dictionaries are not infallible. (I have been working as a professional translator since 1974). And indeed that musicians and lexicographers cannot always agree on the precise meaning of the terminology they use. For example, here: http://www.winterkonzerte.de/fachbegriffe.html I found: spiccato: Deutlich, abgesetzt, mit gestoßenen Noten (Bogentechnik bei Streichinstrumenten). staccato: Gestoßen, kurz, abgehackt. Gegensatz:- legato The terminology here is very vague, and doesn't explain the fundamental difference between staccato and spiccato, i.e. that staccato stays on the string and spiccato bounces. This is further confused by the fact that French-speakers tend to call any bouncing stroke sautillé even though this term more strictly applies to the rapid bouncing of the wood of the bow unassisted, as it were, and is related to tremolo. sautillé works well on fast semiquavers, spiccato can be used on relatively slow notes. It is performed with the upper arm and the bow reaches and leaves the string like an aircraft landing and immediatly taking off again or like a stone skimmed across water. Back to Dolmetsch: it does give staccare (Italian) to detach, to separate each note as the basic meaning. Then things get complicated. For example, I can assure you that détaché means what I described in my previous posting, as also found here: http://www.violinonline.com/bowstrokes.htm Détaché indicates smooth, separate bow strokes should be used for each note (it does not mean detached or disconnected). Notes are of equal value, and are produced with an even, seamless stroke with no variation in pressure. Not because I necessarily trust this source (for example, it makes martelé and staccato sound like the same thing) but having been trained in Luxembourg (where the system and terminology are very much based on the French model) and Liège - and sometimes by French-speaking teachers - this is what I have learnt that the expressions mean. Back to Dolmetsch again: it implies that staccato is the same thing as gestoßen (German), détaché (French), piqué (French). Gestoßen certainly means détaché but piqué doesn't; it means something more like staccatissimo. So I wouldn't rely too much on dictionaries (for example, what is the relevance of the reference to Monteverdi's use of pizzicato in this context?) Personally, staccato is a word I use for musical effects and never for a piping style. I think it merely confuses matters. Quite rightly. But it does have a technical meaning for string players. Sorry if I sound like a know-all, but the above is merely a distillation of what I have gathered over several decades to be the consensus among practising string players as opposed to lexicographers and musicologists and is offered FWIW. Best, Chris (wer übt, hat's nötig) Birch To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
Most of the argument here seems to be about the word staccato than any great stylistic difference. -Original Message- From: Julia Say [mailto:julia@nspipes.co.uk] Sent: 21 June 2011 10:05 To: barr...@nspipes.co.uk; Gibbons, John Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: [NSP] Re: Deaf/dead On 20 Jun 2011, Gibbons, John wrote: stacc. abbreviated form of staccato (Italian: detached, separated) staccare (Italian) to detach, to separate each note The word has its natural meaning, in other words. Stacatissimo is what some people think it means, but it doesn't! I believe I read (probably in the online dolmetsch.com music theory site since that's what I tend to use) that in classical / art music terms these days, a note with a staccato dot should be played half length of what is printed, (so a crotchet becomes a quaver, for instance), whilst staccatissimo means the note should be played one quarter of the written value. I have more than a suspicion that the precise meaning of these terms varies from instrument to instrument (different characteristics and all that) as well as through historical and musical time. Maybe an exploration of the relevance and meaning of such terms for the nsp is worthwhile. Tenuto also appears to mean separated, but only by a hair's breadth, which I think we should appropriate, as it describes exactly what we sometimes want. Reading (this time on Wikipedia) legato can be either separated or joined (slurred legato?) depending on instrument and context. What / which do we (nsp-ers) mean by it? And under what circumstances? I once played classical flute - where staccato dots often (but not always) meant tongueing, slurs meant no tongueing. And so on and so forth. Each of us is coming to the nsp with a slightly different perspective and experience and we have to bear this in mind in discussions We have staccatissimo marks in Peacock on Meggy's Foot - and all seem agreed that this is a highly exaggerated staccato tune. So, in our case, staccatissimo could be said to be as short as you can possibly make it, whilst staccato is with the bounce that most players seem to apply to (for example) the first of a pair of repeated notes. Not something that's ever been pointed out to me formally but most players do it, almost by instinct. Which makes it traditional in my book. If we can find a consensus on how these terms are / should be used in nspiping, discussions might be a little less confrontational. Julia (who has been told off by both Chris O and I- Adrian for playing too staccato - yees!) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
In Jacky Layton, and other 4/4's going back to Dixon, playing the semis slightly inegales is a good idea. But still with gaps between! John -Original Message- From: christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu [mailto:christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu] Sent: 21 June 2011 10:39 To: julia@nspipes.co.uk; barr...@nspipes.co.uk; Gibbons, John Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: RE: [NSP] Re: Deaf/dead that's what I tend to use) that in classical / art music terms these days, a note with a staccato dot should be played half length of what is printed, (so a crotchet becomes a quaver, for instance), This is the convention I'm familiar with too. I find a useful practise technique for NSP, now that I'm emerging from the doldrums (= renewed obsession with fiddle/violin/viola/viols there are not enough hours in the day) and learning the Jacky Layton variations, is to set the metronome to the semiquaver (very slowly for the time being) and play the semis as demis, the quavers as semis, dotted quavers as quavers and crotchets as dotted quavers. Strict discipline, folks. Do you think Inky and the Big O would approve? Csírz PS détaché doesn't meant the same thing. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
Popapoms would be the Australian version then? Tim On 21 Jun 2011, at 14:44, Dave S wrote: Colin, that would be popapoms then, er, hope there are no cheerleaders affronted Dave On 6/21/2011 3:31 PM, cwhill wrote: So popadoms then :) Colin Hill On 21/06/2011 12:18, Gibbons, John wrote: When I was in a choir, a composer of a piece we'd commissioned explained legato, poco staccato and staccato respectively as pah, pom, and pop. For NSP, pah is a no-no, as notes need definite ends. So the spectrum we work between is somewhere between pom and pop. Occasional ventures into staccatissimo, as in Meggy's Foot, need a pip instead. But generally the notes should come out like peas, not lentils. John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu Sent: 21 June 2011 09:45 To: barr...@nspipes.co.uk Cc: rich...@lizards.force9.co.uk; nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: Deaf/dead Oops, outlook tells me I've already sent a reply. I wonder what it said... Barry, et al. May I point you to the Dolmetsch dictionary http://www.dolmetsch.com/defss4.htm Thanks, this is very interesting but unfortunately reminds me that dictionaries are not infallible. (I have been working as a professional translator since 1974). And indeed that musicians and lexicographers cannot always agree on the precise meaning of the terminology they use. For example, here: http://www.winterkonzerte.de/fachbegriffe.html I found: spiccato: Deutlich, abgesetzt, mit gestoßenen Noten (Bogentechnik bei Streichinstrumenten). staccato: Gestoßen, kurz, abgehackt. Gegensatz:- legato The terminology here is very vague, and doesn't explain the fundamental difference between staccato and spiccato, i.e. that staccato stays on the string and spiccato bounces. This is further confused by the fact that French-speakers tend to call any bouncing stroke sautillé even though this term more strictly applies to the rapid bouncing of the wood of the bow unassisted, as it were, and is related to tremolo. sautillé works well on fast semiquavers, spiccato can be used on relatively slow notes. It is performed with the upper arm and the bow reaches and leaves the string like an aircraft landing and immediatly taking off again or like a stone skimmed across water. Back to Dolmetsch: it does give staccare (Italian) to detach, to separate each note as the basic meaning. Then things get complicated. For example, I can assure you that détaché means what I described in my previous posting, as also found here: http://www.violinonline.com/bowstrokes.htm Détaché indicates smooth, separate bow strokes should be used for each note (it does not mean detached or disconnected). Notes are of equal value, and are produced with an even, seamless stroke with no variation in pressure. Not because I necessarily trust this source (for example, it makes martelé and staccato sound like the same thing) but having been trained in Luxembourg (where the system and terminology are very much based on the French model) and Liège - and sometimes by French-speaking teachers - this is what I have learnt that the expressions mean. Back to Dolmetsch again: it implies that staccato is the same thing as gestoßen (German), détaché (French), piqué (French). Gestoßen certainly means détaché but piqué doesn't; it means something more like staccatissimo. So I wouldn't rely too much on dictionaries (for example, what is the relevance of the reference to Monteverdi's use of pizzicato in this context?) Personally, staccato is a word I use for musical effects and never for a piping style. I think it merely confuses matters. Quite rightly. But it does have a technical meaning for string players. Sorry if I sound like a know-all, but the above is merely a distillation of what I have gathered over several decades to be the consensus among practising string players as opposed to lexicographers and musicologists and is offered FWIW. Best, Chris (wer übt, hat's nötig) Birch To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1382 / Virus Database: 1513/3717 - Release Date: 06/21/11 - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1382 / Virus Database: 1513/3717 - Release Date: 06/21/11 - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1382 / Virus Database: 1513/3717 - Release Date: 06/21/11
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
On 21 Jun 2011, at 14:54, Tim Rolls wrote: Popapoms would be the Australian version then? Well, which country is this? : Poppadom, Poppadom Pom Pom Pom . . . Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
nah Tim, propa poms Dave On 6/21/2011 3:54 PM, Tim Rolls wrote: Popapoms would be the Australian version then? Tim On 21 Jun 2011, at 14:44, Dave S wrote: Colin, that would be popapoms then, er, hope there are no cheerleaders affronted Dave On 6/21/2011 3:31 PM, cwhill wrote: So popadoms then :) Colin Hill On 21/06/2011 12:18, Gibbons, John wrote: When I was in a choir, a composer of a piece we'd commissioned explained legato, poco staccato and staccato respectively as pah, pom, and pop. For NSP, pah is a no-no, as notes need definite ends. So the spectrum we work between is somewhere between pom and pop. Occasional ventures into staccatissimo, as in Meggy's Foot, need a pip instead. But generally the notes should come out like peas, not lentils. John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu Sent: 21 June 2011 09:45 To: barr...@nspipes.co.uk Cc: rich...@lizards.force9.co.uk; nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: Deaf/dead Oops, outlook tells me I've already sent a reply. I wonder what it said... Barry, et al. May I point you to the Dolmetsch dictionary http://www.dolmetsch.com/defss4.htm Thanks, this is very interesting but unfortunately reminds me that dictionaries are not infallible. (I have been working as a professional translator since 1974). And indeed that musicians and lexicographers cannot always agree on the precise meaning of the terminology they use. For example, here: http://www.winterkonzerte.de/fachbegriffe.html I found: spiccato: Deutlich, abgesetzt, mit gestoßenen Noten (Bogentechnik bei Streichinstrumenten). staccato: Gestoßen, kurz, abgehackt. Gegensatz:- legato The terminology here is very vague, and doesn't explain the fundamental difference between staccato and spiccato, i.e. that staccato stays on the string and spiccato bounces. This is further confused by the fact that French-speakers tend to call any bouncing stroke sautillé even though this term more strictly applies to the rapid bouncing of the wood of the bow unassisted, as it were, and is related to tremolo. sautillé works well on fast semiquavers, spiccato can be used on relatively slow notes. It is performed with the upper arm and the bow reaches and leaves the string like an aircraft landing and immediatly taking off again or like a stone skimmed across water. Back to Dolmetsch: it does give staccare (Italian) to detach, to separate each note as the basic meaning. Then things get complicated. For example, I can assure you that détaché means what I described in my previous posting, as also found here: http://www.violinonline.com/bowstrokes.htm Détaché indicates smooth, separate bow strokes should be used for each note (it does not mean detached or disconnected). Notes are of equal value, and are produced with an even, seamless stroke with no variation in pressure. Not because I necessarily trust this source (for example, it makes martelé and staccato sound like the same thing) but having been trained in Luxembourg (where the system and terminology are very much based on the French model) and Liège - and sometimes by French-speaking teachers - this is what I have learnt that the expressions mean. Back to Dolmetsch again: it implies that staccato is the same thing as gestoßen (German), détaché (French), piqué (French). Gestoßen certainly means détaché but piqué doesn't; it means something more like staccatissimo. So I wouldn't rely too much on dictionaries (for example, what is the relevance of the reference to Monteverdi's use of pizzicato in this context?) Personally, staccato is a word I use for musical effects and never for a piping style. I think it merely confuses matters. Quite rightly. But it does have a technical meaning for string players. Sorry if I sound like a know-all, but the above is merely a distillation of what I have gathered over several decades to be the consensus among practising string players as opposed to lexicographers and musicologists and is offered FWIW. Best, Chris (wer übt, hat's nötig) Birch To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1382 / Virus Database: 1513/3717 - Release Date: 06/21/11 - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1382 / Virus Database: 1513/3717 - Release Date: 06/21/11 - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1382 / Virus Database: 1513/3717 - Release Date: 06/21/11 - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1382 / Virus Database: 1513/3717 - Release Date: 06/21/11
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
Thank you Frances.you had me whistling the Radetzky March while cooking breakfast.I'm probably stuck with it for the day! Ian Francis Wood wrote: On 21 Jun 2011, at 14:54, Tim Rolls wrote: Popapoms would be the Australian version then? Well, which country is this? : Poppadom, Poppadom Pom Pom Pom . . . Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
P On 21 Jun 2011, at 15:51, Richard York wrote: Then there's the Beethoven version- poppopaDOM Or this, anyone? Poppadom, Poppadom, Poppadom-pom ? Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
Or poppaDOMpompompom POPpadom? -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Francis Wood Sent: 21 June 2011 16:29 To: Richard York Cc: NSP group Subject: [NSP] Re: Deaf/dead P On 21 Jun 2011, at 15:51, Richard York wrote: Then there's the Beethoven version- poppopaDOM Or this, anyone? Poppadom, Poppadom, Poppadom-pom ? Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
Quoting richard.hea...@tiscali.co.uk richard.hea...@tiscali.co.uk: Is that the crispy stuff they put in their toblerone's, then? Toblerone's? trombones? - whatever! Who can Tell? Richard The Lone Ranger, of course. Tonto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
I assume all this food based music will be played on a crumpet or a cornetto --Original Message-- From: Gibbons, John Sender: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu To: 'Francis Wood' To: Richard York Cc: NSP group Subject: [NSP] Re: Deaf/dead Sent: Jun 21, 2011 4:36 PM Or poppaDOMpompompom POPpadom? -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Francis Wood Sent: 21 June 2011 16:29 To: Richard York Cc: NSP group Subject: [NSP] Re: Deaf/dead P On 21 Jun 2011, at 15:51, Richard York wrote: Then there's the Beethoven version- poppopaDOM Or this, anyone? Poppadom, Poppadom, Poppadom-pom ? Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
I assume all this food based music will be played on a crumpet or a cornetto --Original Message-- From: Gibbons, John Sender: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu To: 'Francis Wood' To: Richard York Cc: NSP group Subject: [NSP] Re: Deaf/dead Sent: Jun 21, 2011 4:36 PM Or poppaDOMpompompom POPpadom? -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Francis Wood Sent: 21 June 2011 16:29 To: Richard York Cc: NSP group Subject: [NSP] Re: Deaf/dead P On 21 Jun 2011, at 15:51, Richard York wrote: Then there's the Beethoven version- poppopaDOM Or this, anyone? Poppadom, Poppadom, Poppadom-pom ? Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
Served up by Sir Adrian Boulti ? T On 21 Jun 2011, at 16:58, si...@leveau8.fsnet.co.uk wrote: I assume all this food based music will be played on a crumpet or a cornetto --Original Message-- From: Gibbons, John Sender: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu To: 'Francis Wood' To: Richard York Cc: NSP group Subject: [NSP] Re: Deaf/dead Sent: Jun 21, 2011 4:36 PM Or poppaDOMpompompom POPpadom? -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Francis Wood Sent: 21 June 2011 16:29 To: Richard York Cc: NSP group Subject: [NSP] Re: Deaf/dead P On 21 Jun 2011, at 15:51, Richard York wrote: Then there's the Beethoven version- poppopaDOM Or this, anyone? Poppadom, Poppadom, Poppadom-pom ? Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
As I need to make a birthday cake for tomorrow I am likely to be doing some piping. Ian si...@leveau8.fsnet.co.uk wrote: I assume all this food based music will be played on a crumpet or a cornetto --Original Message-- From: Gibbons, John Sender: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu To: 'Francis Wood' To: Richard York Cc: NSP group Subject: [NSP] Re: Deaf/dead Sent: Jun 21, 2011 4:36 PM Or poppaDOMpompompom POPpadom? -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Francis Wood Sent: 21 June 2011 16:29 To: Richard York Cc: NSP group Subject: [NSP] Re: Deaf/dead P On 21 Jun 2011, at 15:51, Richard York wrote: Then there's the Beethoven version- poppopaDOM Or this, anyone? Poppadom, Poppadom, Poppadom-pom ? Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
Quoting Richard York rich...@lizards.force9.co.uk: All of which goes to show that it's really, really difficult writing down on paper the precise quality of something which we hear and/or play in such a way that other people can do it. Perhaps Aural Transmission really is the best method. (waits for someone to produce a dubious double entendre) I think this is where we hit the difference between what is generally called 'traditional' music and on the other hand 'classical' music. 'Traditional' musicians played in their communities or where they would. Jimmy Allen played for the crowds, so his accomplices could lighten their pockets. In a more modern time rock musicians played enthralling music which wowed millions with only the sketchiest of musical theory. Now go into a decent guitar shop and their is some guitar-nerd (technical term) reproducing a famous lead solo on a fender stratocaster they will never be able to afford. That is perhaps also Aural transmission. Conversely, much of what we refer to as 'Classical' music was composed by courtiers, retainers, civic employees or household members, who owed their livelihood too being able to please their paymasters. In particular, they had to 'write' music which professional musicians could play either almost or completely at sight, and all the directions had to be on the page. The larger the group of musicians, the more more meticulous the directions had to be. To my way of thinking, in the classical mode (as I have described it) the technical terms are prescriptive and the Composer to the Elector of Wotsitburg can say to his orchestra, When I say this bit is staccato I mean Proper Poppa dopadumds, or whatever. Either they got the message or they should set out for the next city state and find a different employer. For Traditional music I think we should regard such technical terms as descriptive. The music is as it is played by those who represent the tradition (you choose). We imbibe it, we imitate it, and we develop it. It is useful and helpful to talk to others as we grow into the tradition, and for this we need a language. We may reach to the 'classical' world for descriptive terms or we may invent our own terms, such as 'detached' to describe: Playing NSP with a fresh start to each note but not necessarily a clearly audible silence (Chirz) Any thoughts? Barry PS my spellchecker offered as alternatives to 'stratocaster': 'toastmaster' or castrated. Ah! the wonders of a digital age. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
Nice one Barry. I particularly like the idea of 'Stairway to heaven' on a castrated! Lovely vision Malcolm To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
On 21 Jun 2011, at 23:13, barr...@nspipes.co.uk wrote: PS my spellchecker offered as alternatives to 'stratocaster': 'toastmaster' or castrated. Ah! the wonders of a digital age. Don't know about 'toastmaster', but 'castrated' is a proper musical term. In Italian, that is. More seriously, a good post, Barry. 'Staccato' as a useful description works just fine for me. I've not found the need to refine a very precise meaning, but it conveys a common concept to most people. 'Detached' is not an equivalent, though. I'll play a slow air, or everything else for that manner with 'detached fingering' because that's how a stopped chanter works. And it's not the opposite of 'legato'! I take 'detached fingering' to mean only that and nothing more. Only one finger off at any time, with either an infinitesimal or a more pronounced gap between notes. Once it is more noticeable, then it's staccato. 'Meggy's Foot' to take an extreme example and 'Lads of Alnwick' less so. 'Rothbury Hills' or whatever, hardly at all. Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
Meanwhile I'm working on my next piece for the competitions later in the year. I've got as far as Dum poppapoppapoppadum poppa, but can't decide if it should be dum or pop next. Thoughtful and considered artistic advice of a sensitive nature would be most welcome, please. Richard. On 21/06/2011 17:00, [1]si...@leveau8.fsnet.co.uk wrote: I assume all this food based music will be played on a crumpet or a cornetto --Original Message-- From: Gibbons, John Sender: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu To: 'Francis Wood' To: Richard York Cc: NSP group Subject: [NSP] Re: Deaf/dead Sent: Jun 21, 2011 4:36 PM Or poppaDOMpompompom POPpadom? -Original Message- From: [3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [[4]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Beha lf Of Francis Wood Sent: 21 June 2011 16:29 To: Richard York Cc: NSP group Subject: [NSP] Re: Deaf/dead P On 21 Jun 2011, at 15:51, Richard York wrote: Then there's the Beethoven version- poppopaDOM Or this, anyone? Poppadom, Poppadom, Poppadom-pom ? Francis To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:si...@leveau8.fsnet.co.uk 2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
