[NSP] Re: [nsp] re-conditioning ...
On 8 Jan 2011, Victor Eskenazi wrote: > my pipes have sat for too long > 1 - the weather here is very damp Where is "here" (roughly)? >turns out the joints are stuck. > any suggestions on how to unstick them - without waiting for the right brief immersion in hot water or gently heating with a hot air gun on a lowish setting (depends on model), followed by a gentle twisting action. I'm assuming this is primarily the drone slides though the air gun would work on chanter stock joints too. Mind the chanter foot if it's plastic - the gun could melt it if used incautiously. And mind your fingers on any ferrule in the area you are heating. > 2 - any suggestions on cleaning the green off the brass? Methylated spirit (the purple stuff in the UK -industrial alcohol elsewhere?), applied with a cloth, followed by brass polish. And don't use olive oil or keep your set shut in a box in the future - it aggravates the verdigris problem at the least. The jury is out on whether it actually causes it. Good luck Julia To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: [nsp] re-conditioning ...
Re the green verdigris. Many (many) moons ago I was told (possibly by CR?) that wrapping the pipes in pure silk would help prevent it so I bought a second hand silk shirt from a charity shop (50p in a clearance sale) and cut it into suitable lengths. I rarely play the pipes these days (old age and infirmity has set in) but they don't get half as green as they used to and what is there comes off with a brisk rub from a kitchen roll (the metal is NS, by the way) and that's after several months shut in the box behind the couch in the living room. They used to go green very quickly before that so it does seem to work. Can't really comment on the stuck parts although the wood for pipes doesn't tend to expand much in the damp I would think (may be wrong) as it's so dense and oiled (I hope you do oil them) anyway. I've made a note of the heat treatment "just in case" the oil on the pipes goes hard and they stick (although the medical paraffin seems to prevent that unlike some stuff I have used in the past) as I presume that the heat will soften it. Colin Hill - Original Message - From: "Julia Say" To: "Northumbrian Small Pipes" ; "Victor Eskenazi" Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 9:09 AM Subject: [NSP] Re: [nsp] re-conditioning ... On 8 Jan 2011, Victor Eskenazi wrote: my pipes have sat for too long 1 - the weather here is very damp Where is "here" (roughly)? turns out the joints are stuck. any suggestions on how to unstick them - without waiting for the right brief immersion in hot water or gently heating with a hot air gun on a lowish setting (depends on model), followed by a gentle twisting action. I'm assuming this is primarily the drone slides though the air gun would work on chanter stock joints too. Mind the chanter foot if it's plastic - the gun could melt it if used incautiously. And mind your fingers on any ferrule in the area you are heating. 2 - any suggestions on cleaning the green off the brass? Methylated spirit (the purple stuff in the UK -industrial alcohol elsewhere?), applied with a cloth, followed by brass polish. And don't use olive oil or keep your set shut in a box in the future - it aggravates the verdigris problem at the least. The jury is out on whether it actually causes it. Good luck Julia To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: [nsp] re-conditioning ...
THANX Julia and Colin! I finally had the courage (had nightmares of the wood splitting apart) to pull out the heat gun. it worked easily! within a few minutes the joints let go ... aahhh ... there were 3 frozen joints - 1 is the joint with the valve that attaches to the bag. the other 2 were - both chanters into the adapter piece that fits into the main piece that fits in the bag. (having 2 different chanters, i could leave them in this adapter, and easily change the one i use) to answer your question... i live in the nw u.s.a. - a place known for it's humidity. for the verdigris. . . in this country we have a clear liquid ... "rubbing" or isopropyl alcohol. turns out it works to get rid of the green until now i have used, i thought successfully - cold press, extra virgin, olive oil. a while ago i remember there was some discussion of oils. . . i don't recall the favorites. which is your favorite oil? and Colin ... it turns out i have a favorite old (torn) silk shirt i couldn't throw out ... thanx for helping me find new life for it! thanx, again for your help victor On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 01:09, Julia Say <[1]julia@nspipes.co.uk> wrote: On 8 Jan 2011, Victor Eskenazi wrote: > my pipes have sat for too long > 1 - the weather here is very damp Where is "here" (roughly)? >turns out the joints are stuck. > any suggestions on how to unstick them - without waiting for the right brief immersion in hot water or gently heating with a hot air gun on a lowish setting (depends on model), followed by a gentle twisting action. I'm assuming this is primarily the drone slides though the air gun would work on chanter stock joints too. Mind the chanter foot if it's plastic - the gun could melt it if used incautiously. And mind your fingers on any ferrule in the area you are heating. > 2 - any suggestions on cleaning the green off the brass? Methylated spirit (the purple stuff in the UK -industrial alcohol elsewhere?), applied with a cloth, followed by brass polish. And don't use olive oil or keep your set shut in a box in the future - it aggravates the verdigris problem at the least. The jury is out on whether it actually causes it. Good luck Julia -- References 1. mailto:julia@nspipes.co.uk To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: [nsp] re-conditioning ...
On 13 Jan 2011, Victor Eskenazi wrote: >for the verdigris. . . in this country we have a clear liquid ... >"rubbing" or isopropyl alcohol. turns out it works to get rid of the >green IPA will degrease everything in sight, but is a bit drastic. Sold in the UK as a computer cleaning fluid. Good for degreasing springs and metal slots, but it'll take oil out of your wrappings too which you don't want. The one we have in the UK is a form of ethyl alcohol which has been adulterated so it can't be drunk. Could someone fluent in both forms of English translate "methylated spirit" into USA-speak, please? >until now i have used, i thought successfully - cold press, extra >virgin, olive oil. aaargh!No wonder. If you must use olive oil you want the cheapest, nastiest, hot presssed clear cheapy variety - the exact reverse of what you have used. Or use neatsfoot oil (from a saddlers, but make sure it's pure oil, not neatsfoot compound which has water in it). Or liquid paraffin/mineral oil / baby oil / baby gel (another terminology minefield) >a while ago i remember there was some discussion of oils. . . And then another one, and then another one. Its one of the recurrent topics. Julia To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: [nsp] re-conditioning ...
I think it's called denatured alcohol. Martin On Fri, 2011-01-14 at 11:31 +, Julia Say wrote: > On 13 Jan 2011, Victor Eskenazi wrote: > > >for the verdigris. . . in this country we have a clear liquid ... > >"rubbing" or isopropyl alcohol. turns out it works to get rid of the > >green > > IPA will degrease everything in sight, but is a bit drastic. Sold in the UK > as a > computer cleaning fluid. Good for degreasing springs and metal slots, but > it'll > take oil out of your wrappings too which you don't want. > The one we have in the UK is a form of ethyl alcohol which has been > adulterated so > it can't be drunk. > Could someone fluent in both forms of English translate "methylated spirit" > into > USA-speak, please? > > >until now i have used, i thought successfully - cold press, extra > >virgin, olive oil. > > aaargh!No wonder. > > If you must use olive oil you want the cheapest, nastiest, hot presssed clear > cheapy variety - the exact reverse of what you have used. > > Or use neatsfoot oil (from a saddlers, but make sure it's pure oil, not > neatsfoot > compound which has water in it). Or liquid paraffin/mineral oil / baby oil / > baby > gel (another terminology minefield) > > >a while ago i remember there was some discussion of oils. . . > > And then another one, and then another one. Its one of the recurrent topics. > > Julia > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: [nsp] re-conditioning ...
The walking site I use tells me it denatured alcohol you put what we would call a meths stove Mike -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Julia Say Sent: 14 January 2011 11:32 To: Victor Eskenazi Cc: Northumbrian Small Pipes Subject: [NSP] Re: [nsp] re-conditioning ... On 13 Jan 2011, Victor Eskenazi wrote: >for the verdigris. . . in this country we have a clear liquid ... >"rubbing" or isopropyl alcohol. turns out it works to get rid of the >green IPA will degrease everything in sight, but is a bit drastic. Sold in the UK as a computer cleaning fluid. Good for degreasing springs and metal slots, but it'll take oil out of your wrappings too which you don't want. The one we have in the UK is a form of ethyl alcohol which has been adulterated so it can't be drunk. Could someone fluent in both forms of English translate "methylated spirit" into USA-speak, please? >until now i have used, i thought successfully - cold press, extra >virgin, olive oil. aaargh!No wonder. If you must use olive oil you want the cheapest, nastiest, hot presssed clear cheapy variety - the exact reverse of what you have used. Or use neatsfoot oil (from a saddlers, but make sure it's pure oil, not neatsfoot compound which has water in it). Or liquid paraffin/mineral oil / baby oil / baby gel (another terminology minefield) >a while ago i remember there was some discussion of oils. . . And then another one, and then another one. Its one of the recurrent topics. Julia To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: [nsp] re-conditioning ...
Hello Mike Ian Corrigan recommends lemon oil as a pleasant, not too viscious cleaning liquid. It also, he reckons, gives wood a near invisible but protective coat. I haven't tried it but think it might be worth a try. The border pipes he made for Paul Martin are a visual and sonic delight so I'm very happy to take his word on this. Anthony --- On Fri, 14/1/11, Mike Dixon wrote: From: Mike Dixon Subject: [NSP] Re: [nsp] re-conditioning ... To: "'Northumbrian Small Pipes'" Date: Friday, 14 January, 2011, 11:49 The walking site I use tells me it denatured alcohol you put what we would call a meths stove Mike -Original Message- From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Julia Say Sent: 14 January 2011 11:32 To: Victor Eskenazi Cc: Northumbrian Small Pipes Subject: [NSP] Re: [nsp] re-conditioning ... On 13 Jan 2011, Victor Eskenazi wrote: >for the verdigris. . . in this country we have a clear liquid ... >"rubbing" or isopropyl alcohol. turns out it works to get rid of the >green IPA will degrease everything in sight, but is a bit drastic. Sold in the UK as a computer cleaning fluid. Good for degreasing springs and metal slots, but it'll take oil out of your wrappings too which you don't want. The one we have in the UK is a form of ethyl alcohol which has been adulterated so it can't be drunk. Could someone fluent in both forms of English translate "methylated spirit" into USA-speak, please? >until now i have used, i thought successfully - cold press, extra >virgin, olive oil. aaargh!No wonder. If you must use olive oil you want the cheapest, nastiest, hot presssed clear cheapy variety - the exact reverse of what you have used. Or use neatsfoot oil (from a saddlers, but make sure it's pure oil, not neatsfoot compound which has water in it). Or liquid paraffin/mineral oil / baby oil / baby gel (another terminology minefield) >a while ago i remember there was some discussion of oils. . . And then another one, and then another one. Its one of the recurrent topics. Julia To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 2. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: [nsp] re-conditioning ...
Den 14-01-2011 13:42, Anthony Robb skrev: Hello Mike Ian Corrigan recommends lemon oil as a pleasant, not too viscious cleaning liquid. It also, he reckons, gives wood a near invisible but protective coat. I haven't tried it but think it might be worth a try. The border pipes he made for Paul Martin are a visual and sonic delight so I'm very happy to take his word on this. Anthony Hi Anthony - and every one else ! Forgive me for being a little of a spoilsport with my warnings and explanations - but : Yes, lemon oil is an effective cleaning agent. However it is a bit more agressive that it may appear at first. Care should be taken to keep it off anything painted or lacquered and also it tends to break down many plastic-materials in a slow process that may not become noticed before tiny cracks begin to develop in the plastic long time after the lemon oil was used. Bo Albrechtsen -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: [nsp] re-conditioning ...
On 14 Jan 2011, Bo Albrechtsen wrote: > /Julia is perfectly right/ in exclaiming her "gh" ! Thank you, I have been well trained! > Vegetable oil such as the cold press, extra virgin etc in time any such > oil will change > from being an oil and into first a gummy substance ...which was known as a snotomer in the Polymer Research Unit in which I spent 10 years as a technician. As I've said before. Wonderful term, so descriptive and generally recognisable. > Olive oil will solidify a lot slower than > linseed oil but it will become sticky and gluey relatively fast Particularly when in contact with metals such as brass and nickel silver whose components are sometimes part of catalysts - ie they speed the process up. Which I'm convinced doesn't help. > Paraffin oil/liquid paraffin etc > etc is a mineral-oil product which is cheap, not drying and does not > smell at all. It does tend to evaporate however very slowly over time I have observed a tendency for it to start causing rotting of the cotton threads that I use, a process I'm still keeping an eye on and I'm not drawing any conclusions yet. At present it's just something to bear in mind. Others disagree. Julia To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: [nsp] re-conditioning ...
Hello Julia & Bo
Thanks for the warning. To be fair to Ian he's the sort of guy that
doesn't laquer his pipes or use plastic mounts. He was recommending
this purely for keeping natural wood and nickel silver clean
and looking good.
On the olive oil question those who used/use it (Clough, Caisley,
Hillery, Nelson et al) were from the era when it was sold in 50ml
bottles from the chemists to soften ear wax.
It was/is probably the (almost) pure triester (between glycerol and
oleic acid) and so being short on tasty bits (including minute bits of
olive) it would have been reasonable to use. Mike Nelson still uses it
and reckons if you look after your pipes/play them regularly it will be
problem free.
But, as Julia so rightly says, opinion is divided!
Anyone remember a similar line in "The Dosing of the Hoggs"? A very
kittle business.
Anthony
--- On Fri, 14/1/11, Julia Say wrote:
From: Julia Say
Subject: [NSP] Re: [nsp] re-conditioning ...
To: "'Northumbrian Small Pipes'"
Date: Friday, 14 January, 2011, 14:33
On 14 Jan 2011, Bo Albrechtsen wrote:
> . Care should be taken to keep it
>off anything painted or lacquered and also it tends to break down
many
>plastic-materials in a slow process that may not become noticed
before
>tiny cracks begin to develop in the plastic long time after the
lemon
>oil was used.
So possibly deleterious to "alternative ivory" unless you want that
antique
"cracked chanter foot" look!
Julia
To get on or off this list see list information at
[1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: [nsp] re-conditioning ...
Den 14-01-2011 15:27, Julia Say skrev: snip... Paraffin oil/liquid paraffin etc etc is a mineral-oil product which is cheap, not drying and does not smell at all. It does tend to evaporate however very slowly over time I have observed a tendency for it to start causing rotting of the cotton threads that I use, a process I'm still keeping an eye on and I'm not drawing any conclusions yet. At present it's just something to bear in mind. Others disagree. Julia Maybe the cause could be a gradual build up of fatty-acid components in the cotton threading. Also slightly parallell to this is maybe the fact that even lightly tarred hemp rope or line has substantially less tensile strength than "clean" hemp rope. BoA who still chuckles at "the antique cracked chanter foot look" :-) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: [nsp] re-conditioning ...
On 14 Jan 2011, at 11:31, Julia Say replied: >> ( a while ago i remember there was some discussion of oils. . .) > > And then another one, and then another one. Its one of the > recurrent topics. It's one of those things that has no definitive answer. Almost every option has a possible disadvantage as Dorothy Parker pointed out.: 'Résumé' Razors pain you; Rivers are damp; Acids stain you; And drugs cause cramp. Guns aren't lawful; Nooses give; Gas smells awful; You might as well live. I haven't found the beginning of this thread so I don't know what actual use is being proposed for the oil. Is it for use in the bore? There are historical sources mentioning the use of bore oil (almond, I think) but these are for flutes and recorders as I remember, where an oxidised coating (in a comparatively large bore) will cause virtually no problem and may actually be beneficial. The only historical treatise relevant to the present discussion is Hotteterre's Méthode pour la Musette containing comprehensive maintenance instructions for this smallpipe, all of which are directly applicable to NSPs. He makes no mention of oiling either bore or key-pads. I don't think this is likely to be an accidental omission from such comprehensive instructions. More likely perhaps, it was thought that the oils then available then were likely to bring more problems than benefit in a very narrow bore. I don't know whether anyone has tried playing in an oxygen-free environment. Nobody has yet commented on this. Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: [nsp] re-conditioning ...
Quantz swore by almond oil, and if Fritz's flute had suffered by it it would perhaps show in the historical record One problem is the speed of sound in nitrogen is not the same as in air. A way of coaxing the extra few cents out of a flat chanter would be to hook a nitrogen cylinder up to the bellows. Or helium if that isn't enough. John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Francis Wood Sent: 14 January 2011 15:16 To: julia@nspipes.co.uk Cc: Northumbrian Small Pipes Subject: [NSP] Re: [nsp] re-conditioning ... On 14 Jan 2011, at 11:31, Julia Say replied: >> ( a while ago i remember there was some discussion of oils. . .) > > And then another one, and then another one. Its one of the > recurrent topics. It's one of those things that has no definitive answer. Almost every option has a possible disadvantage as Dorothy Parker pointed out.: 'Résumé' Razors pain you; Rivers are damp; Acids stain you; And drugs cause cramp. Guns aren't lawful; Nooses give; Gas smells awful; You might as well live. I haven't found the beginning of this thread so I don't know what actual use is being proposed for the oil. Is it for use in the bore? There are historical sources mentioning the use of bore oil (almond, I think) but these are for flutes and recorders as I remember, where an oxidised coating (in a comparatively large bore) will cause virtually no problem and may actually be beneficial. The only historical treatise relevant to the present discussion is Hotteterre's Méthode pour la Musette containing comprehensive maintenance instructions for this smallpipe, all of which are directly applicable to NSPs. He makes no mention of oiling either bore or key-pads. I don't think this is likely to be an accidental omission from such comprehensive instructions. More likely perhaps, it was thought that the oils then available then were likely to bring more problems than benefit in a very narrow bore. I don't know whether anyone has tried playing in an oxygen-free environment. Nobody has yet commented on this. Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: [nsp] re-conditioning ...
Den 14-01-2011 16:43, Gibbons, John skrev: A way of coaxing the extra few cents out of a flat chanter would be to hook a nitrogen cylinder up to the bellows. Or helium if that isn't enough. John Hmm - this opens up a whole spectrum of technologically exuberant solutions for tuning your drones and chanter with a battery of small pressurized gas bottles and a multi-valve setup for variable continous mix-gas administration. Should look nice made in polished brass and with glass tube flow meters. Any "steam-punkers" out there ?? :-D BoA To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: [nsp] re-conditioning ...
On 14 Jan 2011, Bo Albrechtsen wrote: > Hmm - this opens up a whole spectrum of technologically exuberant > solutions for tuning your drones and chanter with a battery of small > pressurized gas bottles and a multi-valve setup for variable continous > mix-gas administration. Should look nice made in polished brass and with > glass tube flow meters. Any "steam-punkers" out there ?? Come back, Fred Dibnah. You're needed!! Julia To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: [nsp] re-conditioning ...
A lot of sense has been said here. One thing to bear in mind however is how you use your own pipes. Olive oil etc can be fine IF you clean the pipes on a very regular basis (cleaning off all the old stuff etc) so it never gets the chance to harden up and glue the joints, pads, keys etc together (lost a few pads like that in the very early days). The longer between cleaning and playing, the more inert an oil you need. I have tried almond oil (and good it was too) and used it for over 20 years on pipes that come out "now and again" and also neat's-foot oil (I used to do leather working as a hobby) - also very good. As I played less and less, I tried Colin Ross's suggestion of medical liquid paraffin - and we need to be aware that, as said, it's not called that in countries other than the UK. I have found that to be an excellent oil and the pipes are still fine after several months in the case so I have switched to that now. It also had the benefit of oiling the clack valves and I haven't (yet) had a case when the valve made a noise (that "pop" sound) since using it. Another bonus as I occasionally got that with the almond oil. My pipes are lignum with NS mounts, by the way. If in doubt about what it is, it's sold in pharmacies as a laxative and NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with heating or lighting. Pure oil of lavender oil worked well too but you do get some odd looks when you open the case and the smell of lavender permeates the venue. Cleaning the silver/brass can also be done with anything acidic (hence the lemon) including tomato sauce or, for those with "green" in mind, a stalk of rhubarb. Take care with the iso-alcohol as it's poisonous and highly inflammable but is easily obtained in various preparations such as tape head cleaner, medical swabs for preparing injection sites and numerous things for cleaning computers and electrical parts. You know it's there as there is always a large warning on the container. Vinegar works as well but makes you think of fish 'n' chips :-) We all have our favourites, I suppose. Colin Hill - Original Message - From: "Gibbons, John" To: "'Francis Wood'" ; Cc: "Northumbrian Small Pipes" Sent: Friday, January 14, 2011 3:43 PM Subject: [NSP] Re: [nsp] re-conditioning ... Quantz swore by almond oil, and if Fritz's flute had suffered by it it would perhaps show in the historical record One problem is the speed of sound in nitrogen is not the same as in air. A way of coaxing the extra few cents out of a flat chanter would be to hook a nitrogen cylinder up to the bellows. Or helium if that isn't enough. John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Francis Wood Sent: 14 January 2011 15:16 To: julia@nspipes.co.uk Cc: Northumbrian Small Pipes Subject: [NSP] Re: [nsp] re-conditioning ... On 14 Jan 2011, at 11:31, Julia Say replied: ( a while ago i remember there was some discussion of oils. . .) And then another one, and then another one. Its one of the recurrent topics. It's one of those things that has no definitive answer. Almost every option has a possible disadvantage as Dorothy Parker pointed out.: 'Résumé' Razors pain you; Rivers are damp; Acids stain you; And drugs cause cramp. Guns aren't lawful; Nooses give; Gas smells awful; You might as well live. I haven't found the beginning of this thread so I don't know what actual use is being proposed for the oil. Is it for use in the bore? There are historical sources mentioning the use of bore oil (almond, I think) but these are for flutes and recorders as I remember, where an oxidised coating (in a comparatively large bore) will cause virtually no problem and may actually be beneficial. The only historical treatise relevant to the present discussion is Hotteterre's Méthode pour la Musette containing comprehensive maintenance instructions for this smallpipe, all of which are directly applicable to NSPs. He makes no mention of oiling either bore or key-pads. I don't think this is likely to be an accidental omission from such comprehensive instructions. More likely perhaps, it was thought that the oils then available then were likely to bring more problems than benefit in a very narrow bore. I don't know whether anyone has tried playing in an oxygen-free environment. Nobody has yet commented on this. Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
