[NSP] Re: Etymology of the 'C' word - 2
The question is whether choyting is *morally* wrong. Inflicting horrible noises on the unsuspecting public, because it's easier, and passing it off as 'traditional' in the absence of much evidence that it was ever common in the tradition, could be regarded as both selfish and dishonest... Doing the same because you don't think it's horrible at all, and calling it experimental, is just misguided and shows a lack of taste. But nothing immoral about it. (Ducks for cover) John -Original Message- From: Ormston, Chris [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 16 September 2008 12:06 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: Etymology of the 'C' word - 2 I understand what you're saying, Matt, but I don't think comparison with the GHB tradition is directly relevant. The system of gracing for GHB may have been imposed by the army for the last hundred years or so and become accepted as truth by civilian pipers, but from what I understand, there was always some form of systematic approach to gracing. This may have varied from region to region, and evolved over time, but was not an every-man-for-himself free-for-all. Whatever the approach adopted, the GHB with its open chanter requires grace notes to separate notes of the same pitch, and all systematic approaches to gracing utilise the strength of different grace notes to aid articulation and rhythm. However, as Adrian has already stated, the NSP chanter is a closed cylindrical tube and therefore does not require open gracings. If we attempt to use open gracings they all come out at about the same volume, so their utility for rhythmic purposes is lost and they merely interfere with the melody. Using open gracings to separate notes of the same pitch stands out like a sore thumb amongst otherwise-detached fingering and I can't for the life of me understand how that might be aesthetically pleasing. Six generations of the Clough family seemed to grasp this concept without difficulty, and their peers over the generations - Thomas Hare, George Nicholson, Thomas Todd, and more recently Will Cocks and GG Armstrong - all subscribed to this approach. It lived on in the playing of George Atkinson and Joe Hutton. This is not, then, fundamentalism but rather the evidence that, over the generations, consensus was reached on what constituted good piping - not by academic analysis, but by pipers finding out what worked best through their experience of playing. This defines our tradition. Forster Charlton's notes in the Billy Pigg Border Minstrel album stated that learning the NSP was once taken as seriously as any classical instrument, and this would concur with the suggestion made by Francis that NSP are a parlour instrument rather than a folk instrument. The perception of NSP as a folk instrument has not been helpful as it leads to the notion that the music is unsophisticated and that there are few rules to be observed when playing. People use the 'folk' argument to justify a range of freestyle approaches, but in doing so they do a disservice to the previous generations who, in the absence of the internet, CDs, MP3s or whatever, explored in depth the possibilities of their instrument without dilution from other traditions. So, I believe that the 'right' way of playing is that developed over the last two hundred years or so - it wasn't arrived at by accident! The aesthetics are all to do with how each player works WITHIN the tradition to develop their own subleties and nuances. Tom Clough, George Atkinson and Joe Hutton all played from the same rule book, yet each had an individual style. Chris -Original Message- From: Matt Seattle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 16 September 2008 09:49 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: Etymology of the 'C' word - 2 Thanks for these Richard. None of them are really close, which IMO indicates that this was an onomatopoeic(?) word used by a small circle, maybe a very small circle. The issue behind the word is whether to-choyte-or-not-to-choyte is an aesthetic or a moral choice. We have the right to defend our own aesthetic values, but when we talk of them as 'right' I think we're on shaky ground. The kind of fundamentalism which I'm aware of as a feature of a neighbouring piping tradition rings alarm bells. A tricky one, eh? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html The information contained in this e-mail may be subject to public disclosure under the NHS Code of Openness or the Freedom of Information Act 2000. Unless the information is legally exempt, the confidentiality of this e-mail and your reply cannot be guaranteed. Unless expressly stated otherwise, the information contained in this e-mail is intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient you must not copy, di
[NSP] Re: Etymology of the 'C' word - 2
On 16 Sep 2008, at 14:06, Gibbons, John wrote: The question is whether choyting is *morally* wrong. Undesirable, certainly, but not actually illegal, as is stated in the item below which I noticed recently during a visit to a town well known for its piping activities. Francis Choyting Designatory Order In response to concerns from the public about choyting in the Town, the Council consulted with the borough’s communities with regards to introducing a borough-wide choyting ban. As a result, the Choyting Designatory Order came into effect on 1 July 2007 and will be used to help tackle this problem. The Order gives the Council the right to agree areas where people cannot choyte if asked by the Police not to do so (eg in a street, in parks or open spaces). Police have powers to control choyting within the designated area. If they believe someone is choyting, Officers can ask them to stop and confiscate pipes from people. If someone without reasonable excuse fails to comply with the Officer’s request, they are committing an offence and further action can be taken, including:- • A Fixed Penalty Notice for Disorder can be issued • Arrest and prosecution for a level 2 fine (maximum £500) • Bail conditions can be used to stop the individual from choyting in public. Q. Is it an outright ban on choyting in public? A. No – it’s not an offence to choyte in a public place, but it is if people don’t stop when asked to do so by a Police Officer. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Etymology of the 'C' word - 2
Well said, Chris. I'd add that, even without the traditional examples, the instrument itself is a good teacher. All musical instruments have their peculiar abilities and constraints and this is particularly true of NSPs. Our pipes alone, among other bagpipes, have the capability of producing truly detached notes and few people have studied this as closely and productively as you and Adrian. Whatever may happen in the evolution of tradition and style, that unique capability of the instrument (whether with keys or not) has remained constant. The evidence of both the past and the present seem to indicate that 'good piping' is actually what shows the instrument to its best and unique advantage. You mentioned George Atkinson as a good exponent of that style. I have heard only the three tracks on the Wild Hills O'Wannie LP. I like them a lot. Are there other recordings of him? Francis On 16 Sep 2008, at 12:05, Ormston, Chris wrote: I understand what you're saying, Matt, but I don't think comparison with the GHB tradition is directly relevant. The system of gracing for GHB may have been imposed by the army for the last hundred years or so and become accepted as truth by civilian pipers, but from what I understand, there was always some form of systematic approach to gracing. This may have varied from region to region, and evolved over time, but was not an every-man-for-himself free-for-all. Whatever the approach adopted, the GHB with its open chanter requires grace notes to separate notes of the same pitch, and all systematic approaches to gracing utilise the strength of different grace notes to aid articulation and rhythm. However, as Adrian has already stated, the NSP chanter is a closed cylindrical tube and therefore does not require open gracings. If we attempt to use open gracings they all come out at about the same volume, so their utility for rhythmic purposes is lost and they merely interfere with the melody. Using open gracings to separate notes of the same pitch stands out like a sore thumb amongst otherwise-detached fingering and I can't for the life of me understand how that might be aesthetically pleasing. Six generations of the Clough family seemed to grasp this concept without difficulty, and their peers over the generations - Thomas Hare, George Nicholson, Thomas Todd, and more recently Will Cocks and GG Armstrong - all subscribed to this approach. It lived on in the playing of George Atkinson and Joe Hutton. This is not, then, fundamentalism but rather the evidence that, over the generations, consensus was reached on what constituted good piping - not by academic analysis, but by pipers finding out what worked best through their experience of playing. This defines our tradition. Forster Charlton's notes in the Billy Pigg Border Minstrel album stated that learning the NSP was once taken as seriously as any classical instrument, and this would concur with the suggestion made by Francis that NSP are a parlour instrument rather than a folk instrument. The perception of NSP as a folk instrument has not been helpful as it leads to the notion that the music is unsophisticated and that there are few rules to be observed when playing. People use the 'folk' argument to justify a range of freestyle approaches, but in doing so they do a disservice to the previous generations who, in the absence of the internet, CDs, MP3s or whatever, explored in depth the possibilities of their instrument without dilution from other traditions. So, I believe that the 'right' way of playing is that developed over the last two hundred years or so - it wasn't arrived at by accident! The aesthetics are all to do with how each player works WITHIN the tradition to develop their own subleties and nuances. Tom Clough, George Atkinson and Joe Hutton all played from the same rule book, yet each had an individual style. Chris -Original Message- From: Matt Seattle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 16 September 2008 09:49 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: Etymology of the 'C' word - 2 Thanks for these Richard. None of them are really close, which IMO indicates that this was an onomatopoeic(?) word used by a small circle, maybe a very small circle. The issue behind the word is whether to-choyte-or-not-to-choyte is an aesthetic or a moral choice. We have the right to defend our own aesthetic values, but when we talk of them as 'right' I think we're on shaky ground. The kind of fundamentalism which I'm aware of as a feature of a neighbouring piping tradition rings alarm bells. A tricky one, eh? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html The information contained in this e-mail may be subject to public
[NSP] Re: Etymology of the 'C' word - 2
On Tue, 2008-09-16 at 15:25 +0100, Francis Wood wrote: > > You mentioned George Atkinson as a good exponent of that style. I have > heard only the three tracks on the Wild Hills O'Wannie LP. I like them > a lot. Are there other recordings of him? > > Francis I was just about to be a good boy and sit down to do some work when I saw this and had to disappear into the stored boxes of LPs to do some double checkinghe is not on either "Morpeth Rant" or "Bonny North Tyne" which were two topic LPs of Northumbrian music Now back to work - no more distractions please! Ian To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Etymology of the 'C' word - 2
Thanks Francis, I'm not aware of any more George Atkinson recordings. I was fortunate enough to spend a few afternoons with him circa 1977, and while he was a little out of practice, he managed to combine detached fingering with delightful musicality. Chris -Original Message- From: Francis Wood [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 16 September 2008 15:25 To: Chris Ormston; NSP Mailing List Subject: [NSP] Re: Etymology of the 'C' word - 2 Well said, Chris. I'd add that, even without the traditional examples, the instrument itself is a good teacher. All musical instruments have their peculiar abilities and constraints and this is particularly true of NSPs. Our pipes alone, among other bagpipes, have the capability of producing truly detached notes and few people have studied this as closely and productively as you and Adrian. Whatever may happen in the evolution of tradition and style, that unique capability of the instrument (whether with keys or not) has remained constant. The evidence of both the past and the present seem to indicate that 'good piping' is actually what shows the instrument to its best and unique advantage. You mentioned George Atkinson as a good exponent of that style. I have heard only the three tracks on the Wild Hills O'Wannie LP. I like them a lot. Are there other recordings of him? Francis On 16 Sep 2008, at 12:05, Ormston, Chris wrote: > I understand what you're saying, Matt, but I don't think comparison > with the GHB tradition is directly relevant. The system of gracing > for GHB may have been imposed by the army for the last hundred years > or so and become accepted as truth by civilian pipers, but from what > I understand, there was always some form of systematic approach to > gracing. This may have varied from region to region, and evolved > over time, but was not an every-man-for-himself free-for-all. > > Whatever the approach adopted, the GHB with its open chanter > requires grace notes to separate notes of the same pitch, and all > systematic approaches to gracing utilise the strength of different > grace notes to aid articulation and rhythm. > > However, as Adrian has already stated, the NSP chanter is a closed > cylindrical tube and therefore does not require open gracings. If > we attempt to use open gracings they all come out at about the same > volume, so their utility for rhythmic purposes is lost and they > merely interfere with the melody. Using open gracings to separate > notes of the same pitch stands out like a sore thumb amongst > otherwise-detached fingering and I can't for the life of me > understand how that might be aesthetically pleasing. Six > generations of the Clough family seemed to grasp this concept > without difficulty, and their peers over the generations - Thomas > Hare, George Nicholson, Thomas Todd, and more recently Will Cocks > and GG Armstrong - all subscribed to this approach. It lived on in > the playing of George Atkinson and Joe Hutton. This is not, then, > fundamentalism but rather the evidence that, over the generations, > consensus was reached on what constituted good piping - not by > academic analysis, but by pipers finding out what worked best > through their experience of playing. This defines our tradition. > > Forster Charlton's notes in the Billy Pigg Border Minstrel album > stated that learning the NSP was once taken as seriously as any > classical instrument, and this would concur with the suggestion made > by Francis that NSP are a parlour instrument rather than a folk > instrument. The perception of NSP as a folk instrument has not been > helpful as it leads to the notion that the music is unsophisticated > and that there are few rules to be observed when playing. People > use the 'folk' argument to justify a range of freestyle approaches, > but in doing so they do a disservice to the previous generations > who, in the absence of the internet, CDs, MP3s or whatever, explored > in depth the possibilities of their instrument without dilution from > other traditions. > > So, I believe that the 'right' way of playing is that developed over > the last two hundred years or so - it wasn't arrived at by > accident! The aesthetics are all to do with how each player works > WITHIN the tradition to develop their own subleties and nuances. > Tom Clough, George Atkinson and Joe Hutton all played from the same > rule book, yet each had an individual style. > > Chris > > > > > -Original Message- > From: Matt Seattle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: 16 September 2008 09:49 > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: [NSP] Re:
[NSP] Re: Etymology of the 'C' word - 2
>Our >pipes alone, among other bagpipes, have the capability of producing >truly detached notes In other words, they can do what the others can't. However they can also do what the others can, so they are potentially richer. Why make them, complementarily, as restricted as the others? I think a useful analogy is provided by uilleann pipes, where you can choose to cut etc. or play closed style for musical reasons, not because of constraints. chirs To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Etymology of the 'C' word - 2
Completely off-topic to this thread but something slightly curious came up- After reading the link to the book quoted by Philip I browsed some of the other piping books listed at Amazon. Relating to Hugh Cheape's ''The Book of the Bagpipe'' found a bit of blurb mentioning ''...the Bagpipes Museum in Glasgow, the only specialist museum of its kind in the world''. I'd be surprised if the admirable Hugh Cheape overlooked or denigrated the Morpeth Chantry museum- surely another '' only specialist museum of its kind in the world'' ! Bill -Original Message- From: Philip Gruar [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 16 September 2008 23:15 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: Etymology of the 'C' word - 2 Chris wrote: >I understand what you're saying, Matt, but I don't think comparison >with the GHB tradition is directly relevant. An extremely interesting posting, Chris. Gets right to the heart of the contoversy. VERY true that NSP is not "folk music" - or at least not "folk music" as patronisingly named by the educated classes who dismissed non-classical traditions as either charmingly naive or rough and coarse. That attitude didn't die out with the Victorians either - plenty of inverted snobbery in the 60's folk revival too, which still lives on. All through this debate I've been meaning to recommend an excellent book I bought on the Cal-Mac ferry to the Outer Hebrides this so-called "Summer" (!) - "Pipers" by William Donaldson, subtitled "A guide to the players and music of the Highland Bagpipe" http://www.amazon.co.uk/Pipers-Guide-Players-Highland-Bagpipe/dp/1841584118/ ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1221599969&sr=1-4 Very relevant to a lot that's been said in this debate re. the standards of musicianship and technical skill achieved in a "traditional" (but NOT "folk") instrument, rules about style, traditional teaching of advanced techniques, and the imposition of ways of playing, both by good players who know the tradition and so could be considered to have the right to - but also by the gentlemen amateurs who had the power to impose the rules, but were in fact quite ignorant of the music. And the huge gulf that exists between the way the music is perceived by the general public, and by the players and cognoscenti. Altogether a fascinating read, and in the light of all this talk of maintaining the true tradition via competition rules etc., Yes it IS a very relevant comparison with NSP. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Etymology of the 'C' word - 2
Perhaps the Glasgow Museum (at The National Piping Centre?) specialises in Scottish pipes and therefore is even more specialist than the wonder museum in Morpeth, or the Jim Coldren's collection that used to be housed in the Bagpipe Music Museum in Ellicott City in Maryland (which had sheet music for over 40,000 tunes). Ian On Wed, 2008-09-17 at 11:11 +0100, Bill Telfer wrote: > Completely off-topic to this thread but something slightly curious came up- > After reading the link to the book quoted by Philip I browsed some of the > other piping books listed at Amazon. Relating to Hugh Cheape's ''The Book > of the Bagpipe'' found a bit of blurb mentioning ''...the Bagpipes Museum in > Glasgow, the only specialist museum of its kind in the world''. I'd be > surprised if the admirable Hugh Cheape overlooked or denigrated the Morpeth > Chantry museum- surely another '' only specialist museum of its kind in the > world'' ! > > Bill > > > > > > -Original Message----- > From: Philip Gruar [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: 16 September 2008 23:15 > To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: [NSP] Re: Etymology of the 'C' word - 2 > > Chris wrote: > > >I understand what you're saying, Matt, but I don't think comparison > >with the GHB tradition is directly relevant. > > An extremely interesting posting, Chris. Gets right to the heart of the > contoversy. VERY true that NSP is not "folk music" - or at least not "folk > music" as patronisingly named by the educated classes who dismissed > non-classical traditions as either charmingly naive or rough and coarse. > That attitude didn't die out with the Victorians either - plenty of inverted > snobbery in the 60's folk revival too, which still lives on. > All through this debate I've been meaning to recommend an excellent book I > bought on the Cal-Mac ferry to the Outer Hebrides this so-called "Summer" > (!) - "Pipers" by William Donaldson, subtitled "A guide to the players and > music of the Highland Bagpipe" > http://www.amazon.co.uk/Pipers-Guide-Players-Highland-Bagpipe/dp/1841584118/ > ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1221599969&sr=1-4 > > Very relevant to a lot that's been said in this debate re. the standards of > musicianship and technical skill achieved in a "traditional" (but NOT > "folk") instrument, rules about style, traditional teaching of advanced > techniques, and the imposition of ways of playing, both by good players who > know the tradition and so could be considered to have the right to - but > also by the gentlemen amateurs who had the power to impose the rules, but > were in fact quite ignorant of the music. And the huge gulf that exists > between the way the music is perceived by the general public, and by the > players and cognoscenti. > Altogether a fascinating read, and in the light of all this talk of > maintaining the true tradition via competition rules etc., Yes it IS a very > relevant comparison with NSP. > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >
