[NSP] Re: Has there ever been an NSP with _all_ keys (no open holes)?
I suppose the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" rule applies but I can well see the point if, due to a disability, one needed something away from the norm (anyone invented an electric pump to fill the bag yet, I'm finding pumping the bellows a hard task these days - lol). Although not a "disability", I do remember my old friend the late Pete Rowley making himself a left handed set of pipes some years ago so adapting is possible. As said, most keys have been added to increase the notes available from something that uses fingers to cover holes so maybe a redesign isn't that daft a suggestion as the origins of most wind instruments are very ancient. The melodica? I class mine as keyboard rather than wind (otherwise where do we place a church organ or a harmonium - my harmonium had reeds like a concertina - oh, is that a wind instrument as well?). Slippery slope here. Really interesting discussion though. Colin Hill - Original Message - From: "Richard York" To: "NSP group" Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2011 11:34 AM Subject: [NSP] Re: Has there ever been an NSP with _all_ keys (no open holes)? And given that an instrument's design is (literally) instrumental in shaping its own repertoire, would it even be at all appropriate to do so? Best wishes, Richard. On 23/03/2011 11:15, Dru Brooke-Taylor wrote: I've a recollection that adding all the keys to woodwind instruments wasn't just about being able to add extra notes, but because some notes can fit better with a fully chromatic scale if the holes are all different sizes, including some that are too big for fingers to cover. There's an article about it here, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boehm_System Would this give us any benefits? Even if it would, it sounds as though it would require a complete redesign of the chanter as well. Dru To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --- Text inserted by Panda IS 2011: This message has NOT been classified as spam. If it is unsolicited mail (spam), click on the following link to reclassify it: http://localhost:6083/Panda?ID=pav_2436&SPAM=true&path=C:\Documents%20and%20Settings\Richard\Local%20Settings\Application%20Data\Panda%20Security\Panda%20Internet%20Security%202011\AntiSpam ---
[NSP] Re: Has there ever been an NSP with _all_ keys (no open holes)?
And given that an instrument's design is (literally) instrumental in shaping its own repertoire, would it even be at all appropriate to do so? Best wishes, Richard. On 23/03/2011 11:15, Dru Brooke-Taylor wrote: I've a recollection that adding all the keys to woodwind instruments wasn't just about being able to add extra notes, but because some notes can fit better with a fully chromatic scale if the holes are all different sizes, including some that are too big for fingers to cover. There's an article about it here, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boehm_System Would this give us any benefits? Even if it would, it sounds as though it would require a complete redesign of the chanter as well. Dru To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --- Text inserted by Panda IS 2011: This message has NOT been classified as spam. If it is unsolicited mail (spam), click on the following link to reclassify it: http://localhost:6083/Panda?ID=pav_2436&SPAM=true&path=C:\Documents%20and%20Settings\Richard\Local%20Settings\Application%20Data\Panda%20Security\Panda%20Internet%20Security%202011\AntiSpam ---
[NSP] Re: Has there ever been an NSP with _all_ keys (no open holes)?
I've a recollection that adding all the keys to woodwind instruments wasn't just about being able to add extra notes, but because some notes can fit better with a fully chromatic scale if the holes are all different sizes, including some that are too big for fingers to cover. There's an article about it here, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boehm_System Would this give us any benefits? Even if it would, it sounds as though it would require a complete redesign of the chanter as well. Dru To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Has there ever been an NSP with _all_ keys (no open holes)?
Hello All I've got a drawing from a local (Forest Hall) inventor with an arrangement of keys operated by the fingers which cover the open holes - at the same time. He doesn't play, make or own a set so I've no idea why he picked up on the idea that the NSP Chanter might need modification. Haven't found the time to try out his arrangement yet, chances are I might be too busy for a while. Regards, Nigel. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Has there ever been an NSP with _all_ keys (no open holes)?
I haven't seen the Bowes Museum pipes either. I've never been to the museum even though I've driven through Barnard Castle at least a hundred times, but always on the way to or from Durham or Newcastle - no time to stop or well outside museum opening hours. However, I think it's very well worth going not just for those strange pipes. There is a picture of them here http://www.thebowesmuseum.org.uk/collections/objects/category/8/3396/ If the direct link doesn't work, go to the Bowes Museum website http://www.thebowesmuseum.org.uk/ and use "search the collection" - "musical instruments". I must look out the article in the NPS journal, but has it been suggested that the pipes are in fact a Sordellina - or at least a nineteenth century attempt to carry on the Sordellina tradition? The turning and drone ends do look more Irish Union-pipe or Northumbrian, rather like Reid's work in fact, but that inlaid stock looks very continental - more French than Italian perhaps. It looks as if there may be two chanters, plus that extraordinary doubled-back "regulator" which is very characteristic of the Sordellina - perhaps the ultimate in elaborate but dead-end bagpipe invention, invented in Naples in the 16th century and developed during the 17th. Mersenne has a famously impossible-looking picture, with the note that he hasn't seen one, but includes a drawing so that French instrument makers could attempt to build it. The theory was that compositions in four-parts All you need to know about it in this article - plus pictures right at the end. http://www.seanreidsociety.org/SRSJ2/the%20sordellina.pdf Philip To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Has there ever been an NSP with _all_ keys (no open holes)?
On 23 Mar 2011, inky-adrian wrote: > yes, it's in the Bowes museum. A bagpipe, part Northumberland-all keyed and > part Union. There was a short article about it in an NPS mag many years ago (late 80s? - I haven't time to check) Off the top of my head, I think the conclusion was "road-to-nowhere" (if it ever worked at all). I haven't seen it. Julia To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Has there ever been an NSP with _all_ keys (no open holes)?
The American uilleann pipe maker Patsy Brown made uilleann pipes with keys on all the holes. The only picture I can find on line is rather small but is at http://www.lemccullough.com/LEMcCullough/Music-Biography_files/PatsyBrown-filtered.jpg A larger copy of this appears in Patrick Sky's uilleann pipe tutor and the keys can be seen to hinged from above the hole using a pillar and rod system. This other picture from the uilleann obsession website shows that the upper keys were hinged from the side (see top most chanter). http://www.uilleannobsession.com/photos/boston_pipers/16.jpg What the benefits, if any, of this were I do not know. Ian inky-adrian wrote: Hello all, yes, it's in the Bowes museum. A bagpipe, part Northumberland-all keyed and part Union. Adrian To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Has there ever been an NSP with _all_ keys (no open holes)?
Adrian, I stand corrected Only the one known example, I take it? How do you mean part-Union? Do you mean a wholly keyed NSP chanter, cylindrical bored and closed ended, but with UP drones and regulators? I must go and look at it - even if they (it?) never caught on, and even if it never deserved to John -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Has there ever been an NSP with _all_ keys (no open holes)?
Hello all, yes, it's in the Bowes museum. A bagpipe, part Northumberland-all keyed and part Union. Adrian To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Has there ever been an NSP with _all_ keys (no open holes)?
A saxophone is a woodwind without any open holes covered by fingers. Some holes are always open to make notes, but all of them are closed by a key pad, as opposed to fingers like the other woodwinds you mention, Colin. I suspect if you covered all the holes with keys and pads you would lose a lot of color if not artistic nuance. Although I'm not a pipe maker, I would guess it would be very difficult to add keys like the Boehm system on an F or G chanter. At least with flat fingered styles of piping you would lose a lot of nuance with keys. Compare Irish wooden keyless flute playing with Irish players of silver Boehm system flutes. They can play faster on the silver keyed flute, and they can be jazzy, but personally I don't see those as advantages. YMMV A fully keyed NSP chanter would make choyting exceedingly easy. ;-) I'm with Richard. On Tue, Mar 22, 2011 at 3:29 PM, Richard York wrote: > Interesting... would it actually be easier, with all keys and therefore > "all fingers [] available > to hit keys "? > As it is I'm still teaching my fingers when to move to make all the notes > faster, and still letting my thumb & little finger learn which position is > which, but most of the fingers are limited to their unique notes. > If several fingers were available to hit the same key, I feel instinctively > that it would be more confusing, even though I happily do exactly that on > concertinas and other keyboard instruments. > Somehow the woodwind holding position says different things to my hands, and > I expect a particular finger always to produce a particular note. > > What would you hold it by, given that touching any key would produce a note? > - you'd need some blank bits to keep your fingers on, and then have to lift > them up and move them to the notes. > More confusion. > > I think I'll stick to having holes! > > Richard. > > > > On 22/03/2011 21:28, Colin wrote: >> >> Interesting thought but which woodwind instruments don't have at least 6 >> or 7 open (unkeyed) holes? >> All mine have the standard unkeyed holes along with the other keyed ones. >> Maybe the large amount of metalwork hides the fact the holes are there but >> certainly flutes, clarinets, saxophones, bassoons and oboes have open holes. >> Flutes, of course, go a step further in having keys with holes in them . >> As far as I know, there is no member of the woodwind class made without >> open holes (discounting some bass instruments which would be impossible for >> the fingers to reach maybe). >> >> Colin Hill >> - Original Message - From: "Matthew Boris" >> >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 9:06 PM >> Subject: [NSP] Has there ever been an NSP with _all_ keys (no open holes)? >> >> >>> >>> I was pondering recently, both on the stacatto effect of the keys, the >>> difficulties in only having two fingers free to hit keys, and also >>> thinking about whether a person missing a hand could play bagpipes in >>> general. >>> >>> A thought occurred to me: have any NSP been made which had every hole >>> covered by a key? With such a settup, all fingers would be available >>> to hit keys. I think that's how a lot of modern woodwinds are made; is >>> there any reason besides tradition that this is not regularly done on >>> NSP? >>> >>> -Matthew >>> Arlington, Virginia, USA >>> -- >>> >>> >>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> --- >> Text inserted by Panda IS 2011: >> >> This message has NOT been classified as spam. If it is unsolicited mail >> (spam), click on the following link to reclassify it: >> http://localhost:6083/Panda?ID=pav_2380&SPAM=true&path=C:\Documents%20and%20Settings\Richard\Local%20Settings\Application%20Data\Panda%20Security\Panda%20Internet%20Security%202011\AntiSpam >> >> --- >> >> > > > >
[NSP] Re: Has there ever been an NSP with _all_ keys (no open holes)?
Interesting... would it actually be easier, with all keys and therefore "all fingers [] available to hit keys "? As it is I'm still teaching my fingers when to move to make all the notes faster, and still letting my thumb & little finger learn which position is which, but most of the fingers are limited to their unique notes. If several fingers were available to hit the same key, I feel instinctively that it would be more confusing, even though I happily do exactly that on concertinas and other keyboard instruments. Somehow the woodwind holding position says different things to my hands, and I expect a particular finger always to produce a particular note. What would you hold it by, given that touching any key would produce a note? - you'd need some blank bits to keep your fingers on, and then have to lift them up and move them to the notes. More confusion. I think I'll stick to having holes! Richard. On 22/03/2011 21:28, Colin wrote: Interesting thought but which woodwind instruments don't have at least 6 or 7 open (unkeyed) holes? All mine have the standard unkeyed holes along with the other keyed ones. Maybe the large amount of metalwork hides the fact the holes are there but certainly flutes, clarinets, saxophones, bassoons and oboes have open holes. Flutes, of course, go a step further in having keys with holes in them . As far as I know, there is no member of the woodwind class made without open holes (discounting some bass instruments which would be impossible for the fingers to reach maybe). Colin Hill - Original Message - From: "Matthew Boris" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 9:06 PM Subject: [NSP] Has there ever been an NSP with _all_ keys (no open holes)? I was pondering recently, both on the stacatto effect of the keys, the difficulties in only having two fingers free to hit keys, and also thinking about whether a person missing a hand could play bagpipes in general. A thought occurred to me: have any NSP been made which had every hole covered by a key? With such a settup, all fingers would be available to hit keys. I think that's how a lot of modern woodwinds are made; is there any reason besides tradition that this is not regularly done on NSP? -Matthew Arlington, Virginia, USA -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --- Text inserted by Panda IS 2011: This message has NOT been classified as spam. If it is unsolicited mail (spam), click on the following link to reclassify it: http://localhost:6083/Panda?ID=pav_2380&SPAM=true&path=C:\Documents%20and%20Settings\Richard\Local%20Settings\Application%20Data\Panda%20Security\Panda%20Internet%20Security%202011\AntiSpam ---
[NSP] Re: Has there ever been an NSP with _all_ keys (no open holes)?
Interesting thought but which woodwind instruments don't have at least 6 or 7 open (unkeyed) holes? All mine have the standard unkeyed holes along with the other keyed ones. Maybe the large amount of metalwork hides the fact the holes are there but certainly flutes, clarinets, saxophones, bassoons and oboes have open holes. Flutes, of course, go a step further in having keys with holes in them . As far as I know, there is no member of the woodwind class made without open holes (discounting some bass instruments which would be impossible for the fingers to reach maybe). Colin Hill - Original Message - From: "Matthew Boris" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 9:06 PM Subject: [NSP] Has there ever been an NSP with _all_ keys (no open holes)? I was pondering recently, both on the stacatto effect of the keys, the difficulties in only having two fingers free to hit keys, and also thinking about whether a person missing a hand could play bagpipes in general. A thought occurred to me: have any NSP been made which had every hole covered by a key? With such a settup, all fingers would be available to hit keys. I think that's how a lot of modern woodwinds are made; is there any reason besides tradition that this is not regularly done on NSP? -Matthew Arlington, Virginia, USA -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
